tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post113202525960146546..comments2024-03-23T02:40:59.858-05:00Comments on The Lebanese Bloggers: The Arab Ideology - Good or Bad for Minorities?Rajahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02625042447499335907noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132161531706272632005-11-16T12:18:00.000-05:002005-11-16T12:18:00.000-05:00Raja,Your Seniora example is interesting, though i...Raja,<BR/><BR/>Your Seniora example is interesting, though it'll take more than 2 sentences to overturn "established" Arabism.<BR/><BR/>Also, let's be careful. Seniora said "We are Arab...." He did not say we are "Arab nationalists". Cuz if we "are", then any Arab/Syrian can interfere in our affairs and we're back to square one. One of he problems with this slippery debate is we hear "arab" and we infer or understand "nationalist"<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anyway. No jibe intended at you Raja by my "self-aggrandizing blogger" comment. That was meant for the know-it-alls who invariably show up to tell us: Baathism/Nasserism is not "real" Arabism, but rather what their idea of it is.<BR/><BR/>Sorry guys, there's a 50-year reality on the ground which outweighs your little ideas. <BR/><BR/>Now for a real compliment: Looking good in the new pic.JoseyWaleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04107151613511099711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132156231665452762005-11-16T10:50:00.000-05:002005-11-16T10:50:00.000-05:00Oh,and Josey, thanks for the complement. ;)Oh,<BR/><BR/>and Josey, thanks for the complement. ;)Rajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02625042447499335907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132154543996369622005-11-16T10:22:00.000-05:002005-11-16T10:22:00.000-05:00josey, those values are being transmitted by Senio...josey, <BR/><BR/>those values are being transmitted by Seniora's attempt to redefine Arab Nationalism. I've mentioned this point several times already! <BR/><BR/>In his speeches, most recently the one in which he responded to Bashar's polemic, Seniora acknowledged the traditional "causes" of Arab Nationalism but then went on to add that "We are Arab and Democratic," "We are Arab and Free" and lastly "We are Arab and Open to other cultures." <BR/><BR/>This rhetoric may be new and budding, but I hope it lasts... for God's sake, I hope it lasts! I may consider myself to "beyond" and even against, the myth of an Arab Nationality, but I doubt that I am representative of the majority of Lebanese. In fact I'd bet that even most Sunni Lebanese don't identify themselves as having an "Arab Nationality," rather they merely identify with the causes that it has come to represent. Ask yourself: what do you think the first time you hear "Arab Nationalism"?Rajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02625042447499335907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132147174882419502005-11-16T08:19:00.000-05:002005-11-16T08:19:00.000-05:00Lately I've been thinking a lot about Arab Nationa...Lately I've been thinking a lot about Arab Nationalism with respect to events in the region in the last 50 years or so, A very few egs include 1) the occupation of Gaza by Egypt and The West Bank by Jordan. 2) The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. 3) The Syrian occupation of Lebanon 4) Fatahland 5) Sabra and Chatila 6) Iraqis killing Iraqis en masse. I think you all get my point. Don't break your backs over Arab Nationalism.<BR/><BR/>With respect to Arab Nationalism and minorities, Arab Nationalism was actually an ideology that was used by minorities like Maronite Christians, many of you popularized the concept to create a political venue in which they can be included. An Islamic identity in the region excludes minorities. If you look at the PPS, which has a strong Arab ideology, Anton Saade, the founder is a orthodox Christian, and many of the other co- founders were Druze, Maronites as well as muslims so Arab nationalism served more to include minorites rather than exclude by overwhelming the Islamic State.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132144544053717222005-11-16T07:35:00.000-05:002005-11-16T07:35:00.000-05:00Furthermore, if it is being used as a medium to tr...<I>Furthermore, if it is being used as a medium to transmit values and ideals that I do care for, like freedom, openness and democracy, then I applaud the effort.</I><BR/><BR/>Ok Raja, I must have missed it. A big "if", have you seen those values anywhere near arabism or arab nationalism?<BR/><BR/>I mean in "reality", not in the words of some obscure intellectual or some self-aggrandizing blogger.JoseyWaleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04107151613511099711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132139970093703072005-11-16T06:19:00.000-05:002005-11-16T06:19:00.000-05:00Vox, you are wrong about my conclusions. Two days...Vox, you are wrong about my conclusions. Two days ago, I wrote the following:<BR/> <BR/>"Too many people in this world identify themselves as Arabs for it to be an irrelevant concept or for this brewing war of ideas to be unimportant."<BR/><BR/>So, personally, I could not care less about the Arab Nationalist ideology. However, it is a pertinent topic of discussion because it remains extremely relevant in the political discourse of our region. Furthermore, if it is being used as a medium to transmit values and ideals that I do care for, like freedom, openness and democracy, then I applaud the effort.Rajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02625042447499335907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132104981866153552005-11-15T20:36:00.000-05:002005-11-15T20:36:00.000-05:00Qais, you've taken this discussion into a deeper l...Qais, you've taken this discussion into a deeper level of analysis that incorporates the nuances and contexts that make up reality. I especially like your example of Saddam using Iraqi nationalism and Arab nationalism interchangeably depending on what exactly he was trying to achieve. Professor Hilal Khashan of AUB, for example, conducted a survey of all of Jamal Abdel Nasser's speeches and consequently published a paper based on the results of his study. It turns out that Abdel Nasser referred to Egyptian Nationalism much more frequently than he did Arab Nationalism in his speeches to Egyptians. Let me point out that certain individuals were not too happy with his conclusions, and actually sent him death threats.<BR/><BR/>The point of my entry though, was not to prop up or criticize Arab Nationalism so much as it was to highlight its nature as a tool that could be used by any and all parties - whether they belonged to ethnic or religious minorities or majorities. I do not want to restate what I wrote in the entry so I will stop here.<BR/><BR/>However, I will raise the following point:<BR/><BR/>I believe that this competition around the issue of "who-can-give-the-best-speech" is damaging in and of itself. Unfortunately, I disagree with LP with regards to the nature of the problem that arises from this dilemma. When politicians belonging to certain minorities give their Arab Nationalist speeches they force their Sunni counterparts to radicalize their own positions in order to remain legitimate in the eyes of their constituencies. The irony here is that the reason minority politicians give those speeches in the first place is merely to appear "more Catholic than the Pope," and not necessarily to convert to Catholicism. Consequently, Sunni political leaders radicalize, and we all end up with a radicalized street and radicalized policies all because minority politicians wish to remain politically relevant. <BR/><BR/>My point here is that Arab Nationalism, in its current narrow definition, has a potential for considerable harm. Kamal Jumblatt did it in his time, and now Hizballah has taken his place. Fortunately, PM Seniora is comfortable enough politically to not cave in to this pressure, and is basically telling the Sunni street that Arab Nationalism is not necessarily defined by conflict with Israel. I don't know if there is a precedent to this, but we now have a case of a Sunni leader redefining Arabism rather than caving into popular demands which were instigated by non-Sunni elites. He has brought up concepts of Freedom, Democracy and Openness that I have alluded to before in this blog, and which in my opinion may ultimately have benefits that span generations.<BR/><BR/>I would also like to keep the point Hummbumm raised within this discussion. <BR/><BR/>Is he correct in claiming that “if minorities in the region did not talk about Arabism, they would not be allowed to talk period?” Maybe minorities could never come out and say that “Israel is a reality, let’s get this conflict over with and make the best out of this situation,” because they would be labeled traitors. Compare, for example, how the Arab Street treats Druze conscription in the Israeli Armed Forces with the way they treat Sunni Bedouin voluntary service. <BR/><BR/>Despite that glaring reality, I seriously doubt that minorities would “not be allowed to talk” on other issues just because the Palestine-Israeli conflict was one that they had no say in. If Jumblatt today totally abandoned the "Arab causes," I doubt he would lose any political clout; and the same goes for Hizballah. On the contrary, no matter how much Copts scream for Palestinian Justice, I doubt their situation in Egypt will improve significantly. Again, it appears that much more is at stake than a mere ideology.Rajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02625042447499335907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132094167027050022005-11-15T17:36:00.000-05:002005-11-15T17:36:00.000-05:00I don’t think it’s fair to generalize about minori...I don’t think it’s fair to generalize about minorities in the Islamic world. Each had its own case, defined and shaped by different political and social circumstances. They each reacted differently and made different choices. You cannot lump Maronites, copts and Shias into the same category. Each community had different aspirations and ideas of identity. Before we hold Arab nationalism responsible for their woes, we must look at the specific context. <BR/><BR/>While I am no believer in any form of nationalism, I think lambasting Arab nationalism (as it’s correctly called, and not Arabism) as an ideology and holding it alone responsible for the evils that befell the region is rather simplistic. What the dictators wanted was to invent something to stay in power, and if you study their speeches, you will not only find traces of Arab nationalism, but other narrower nationalist ideas. Saddam, for example, used Arab nationalism against the Shia and the Kurds, but he also used Iraqi nationalism to lure them into the concept of Iraq. <BR/><BR/>As for the minorities, are we talking about religious minorities here? Ethnic? Are we saying that if it weren’t for the destructive forces of Arab nationalism, they would have been able to have their own countries with different religious identities? See, we can bash ideologies all we want, but we must also know what alternative they killed and what exactly they prevented from happening. If a secular pluralistic society is what we’re after, then what kind of force was needed? And is such a society realizable and sustainable in a region full of religious and ethnic minorities? Also take into consideration other forces, political and historical, local and foreign, that led to today’s problems. There have been wars, foreign intervention and colonialism in addition to the internal failings of the Arab states. Arab nationalist ideas are not the only culprit.<BR/><BR/>The way I see it, all have suffered, regardless of religious or minority affiliation. Those dictators made minorities out of all of us, and it was never about religion, it was about staying in power.Abu Kaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05434178565498094522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132080887108467472005-11-15T13:54:00.000-05:002005-11-15T13:54:00.000-05:00Heavy and academic subject.My 2 cents:The Arab Ide...Heavy and academic subject.<BR/><BR/>My 2 cents:<BR/><BR/><I>The Arab Ideology - Good or Bad for Minorities?</I><BR/><BR/>I'd say bad for minorities and everybody else. Why? Just look around you. (PC-police back off, I am not talking about Arab culture or Arab identities, but ideology or political culture, though there's also a relation between all of these)<BR/><BR/>LP <I>Kamal Jumblatt did this the best to devastating effect.</I> Akh, if only the opponents and adversaries of Joumblatt understood that (talk Palestine/Uruba 24/7 and do nothing about it). We could, perhaps, have avoided a civil war.<BR/><BR/>LP about the Orthodox: <I>They're happy being the intellectual leaders or the "Vice Speaker of Parliament" like Michel Murr </I><BR/><BR/>Not good enough LP. VP of Parliament is a joke. As to the intellectuals, those who came up with the bad ideas of Arabism, Baathism, and pan Syrianism (and support of communism) ought to be pilloried. We love to play cute parlor games in Lebanon: the sunnis are like this and the armenians are like that...<BR/><BR/>But in the end everyone; individuals and communities, including the orthodox, ought to be judged on the ideas and actions they espoused), period.JoseyWaleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04107151613511099711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132080159814781862005-11-15T13:42:00.000-05:002005-11-15T13:42:00.000-05:00"Maronite decision to root for the creation of a b...<B>"Maronite decision to root for the creation of a bigger Lebanon including the North, the Bekaa and the South..."</B><BR/><BR/>Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the Maronites where not thrilled about the inclusion of Tripoli into the Lebanese borders by the French?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132059114087372812005-11-15T07:51:00.000-05:002005-11-15T07:51:00.000-05:00Arabism, at the beginning, was not all about minor...Arabism, at the beginning, was <B>not</B> all about minority opression. What Raja and hummbumm put their finger on is not only the minorities' positive response to it, but that the movement was mainly founded by monirity figures. <BR/><BR/>Minorities, in particular many Maronites and Orthodox Lebanese, have had a leading role in founding the Arabist political, economic and literary ideals since the beginning of the 20th century. It was not only a way to preserve a place in the Sunni muslim world, but also an alliance against the greatest evil at the time: <B>Turkey</B> which had occupied them for 400 years. That idea stuck, and later served as support against France and UK. Their bet was that one way to protect minorities (as was pointed out in several posts) is to replace religious alliances with Arabism. They lost. Arabism turned into a speech contest as LP pointed out, where not only did the minority leaders gladly adopt the most Arabist positions, but they were expected to. The Arab "sisters" were always very quick to accuse leaders of these communities of treason for every opinion that's the slightest bit critical of any Arab issue. As if they didn't have the right to a free opinion since they are just <B>"guests"</B> as in the Umayyad days. They unanimously condemned the Lebanese militias fighting the PLO in the 70's, while their reactions were far from unanimous when Sadat, Arafat and Hussein signed unilateral deals with Israel, or when Saddam invaded Kuwait.<BR/><BR/>Still more interesting than the minorities endorsing Arabism, was the Maronite decision to root for the creation of a bigger Lebanon including the North, the Bekaa and the South...<BR/>any comments?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132052387960118292005-11-15T05:59:00.000-05:002005-11-15T05:59:00.000-05:00Arabism is completely about minority oppression. ...Arabism is completely about minority oppression. What you and hummbumm have put your finger on, though, is the minority response to this.<BR/><BR/>Arabism is hypocritical, and minorities thrive in the gray area created between stated ideology and practice. The same goes for anti-Israeli rhetoric. In both, what matters most is the devotion of your values, not where you came from or your independent ideas. That's why "Arabs" compete for who-can-give-the-best-speech instead of resolving problems.<BR/><BR/>Minorities found the loophole. They can protect themselves if they are more Catholic than the Pope. If they give the best speech, then they can succeed. Kamal Jumblatt did this the best to devastating effect.<BR/><BR/>The problem emerges when the member of the minority thinks that his ability to give the best speech means that he should be placed in charge. It's then that the majority stops being "Arab" and starts being "Sunni."<BR/><BR/>Unlike the Jumblatts, the Orthodox have found the perfect niche for themselves. They don't want to take complete control. They're happy being the intellectual leaders or the "Vice Speaker of Parliament" like Michel Murr. No reason to shoot for the top and risk it all when you can spend eternity as second best.Charles Malikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09009178114562065398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10968421.post-1132038336843905032005-11-15T02:05:00.000-05:002005-11-15T02:05:00.000-05:00Arabism I think is secular by definition. It was ...Arabism I think is secular by definition. It was hijacked by the Baathists and others. That does not mean that Arabism can't be succesful in a country like Lebanon. Arabism tearing down the borders I think is dead though..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com