Friday, August 05, 2005

Finally, the Europeans are beginning to move

My absolute favorite quote from a European leader in God knows how many months (or maybe years):

"They come here and they play by our rules and our way of life. If they don't, they are going to have to go."

That statement should be put in its context. Blair gave a monthly press conference in which he announced the first real defensive measures Britain is instituting against al Qaeda.

Here are some more quotes (Click here to read full article):

Membership in extremist Islamic groups such as Hizb-ut-Tahrir would become a crime under the new measures.

Blair said the government also would compile a list of Web sites, bookshops and centers that incite hatred and violence. British nationals involved with such organizations could face strict penalties. Foreign nationals could be deported.

Blair said anyone linked with terrorism could be refused asylum, and the new measures make it easier for the government to strip extremists of dual citizenship.

The government also was considering a request from police and security services to hold terror suspects for three months without charge. The current time limit is 14 days.

Blair said the government will consult with Muslim leaders on how to close mosques "used as a center for fomenting extremism" and would draw up a list of foreign Islamic clerics "not suitable to preach who will be excluded from Britain."

And finally, the British Prime Minister caught my attention by doing something I didn't expect:

He said it was impossible to negotiate with al-Qaida leaders.

"You only have to read the demands coming from al-Qaida to realize there is no compromise possible with these people," Blair said.

The fact that even the subject of negotiations was brought up is significant, and is evidence that supports my conclusion in the last entry I posted on the blog. These measures are a threat to the Muslim community in Britain. If they do not control their children, all will suffer the consequences. If the suicide bombers are not scared for their lives, then they should be scared for the wellbeing of their families. If they are not, and these measures fail, then I am affraid the Brits (and others) will be forced to take even more extreme measures. It all depends on how steep a price they are willing to pay for the Middle East. My guess is that the price is quite high.

"They come here and they play by our rules and our way of life. If they don't, they are going to have to go."


Hussein said...

Multiculturalism should not mean that it is okay for immigrants to live in ghettos and never leave and lead on a life as if they have never left their home country.

"A democracy cannot tolerate lawless zones or parallel societies."--Gerhard Schroeder

I am not saying that immigrants, be it muslims or non-muslims, should blindly adopt the newly found culture, but rather, to make an effort to interact, to contribute to the new culture as well as to take from it with an open mind.

JoseyWales said...

A little late Tony, but better late than never.

Also some habits are hard to break. Blair says:"... anyone linked with terrorism could be refused asylum,..."

What's with "could" Tony? You need a patch to break those PC-habits that are gonna get us all killed?

Londoner said...

may i remind you people, that the 7/7 bombers were all born and bred british?? they did not come from a land far far away, and they had absolutely no prior record of lawlessness, let alone terrorism. in fact, some of them seemed model citizens by all accounts.

blair's blabla means nothing, it is good to talk tough, but the post 9/11 measures are what drove many of the more dangerous movements underground and made them more difficult to keep an eye on.

what's more, it seems to me that although most of them were religious, their motivation seemed more political than fundamentalist, if you catch the nuance. these people did not want to die to reach heaven, they wanted to die to make a statement, particularly the "failed bombers".

and does "getting tougher" involve more 8-bullets to the head for wearing a jeans jacket incidents?

raja, i am disappointed by your uncharacteristic lack of critical thought on this one, the sun in beirut has been frying your brain it seems :) - or, your stay in the US has taken you too far to the right to even see beyond the governmental rhetoric.

and for fak's sake, all this concept of the suicide bomber as the scourge of the earth, just flick on the history channel and watch the repeated documentaries on "the honour of the kamikaze" to see how messed up the moral high ground we think we're standing on is!!!

Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

No need to go paranoid Raja, I seriously doubt Tony Blair is talking about ethnic cleansing.

In all democracies, people can't be held responsible for other people acts and this will continue to be true. Britain is not Israel. Nobody is going to jail the children of extremist people and blow the houses of their neighbour.

Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Moreover, this is the UK not Syria, most British muslims... are British so they cannot be expelled if that's what you're afraid of.

" These measures are a threat to the Muslim community in Britain. If they do not control their children, all will suffer the consequences. " quotes. You fail to say what consequences because there will be none.

Anonymous said...

1/3 of British Muslims seek to bring western society to an end according to a poll done 2 weeks ago. Great Britain must identify all Muslims,and imprison or deport them. It's very existence is at stake.

"The poll, by the YouGov organization for the Daily Telegraph newspaper, reported that 32 percent of more than 500 British Muslims interviewed believe Western society is "decadent and immoral" and that "Muslims should seek to bring it to an end."

Raja said...

Vox, Londoner, I don't think either of you really comprehend what is at stake here. Things might just start to get really really ugly pretty soon (8 bullets might just be the beginning). Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda are working overtime to make every fart in this world seem like a consequence of the "Islamic" war against everyone. If more idiots like the bombers in London fall for that pathetic line of thinking, a pathetic thought might actually become reality.

Most Muslims don't necessarily have to concur with what is going on; but you only need fifty or so to wreak havoc in any Metropolis by blowing themselves up. The war between al Qaeda and the West is just that: its a war. We'd all better start perceiving it that way, or else we'll fail to understand exactly what is taking place.

There definitely are reasons for Middle Easterners to be angry at the US and European countries. The Palestinian situation, the Iraqi situation, the support of incompetent regimes, etc.... But why should a Pakistani blow himself up for those reasons? He's Pakistani!!! Blair's policies might not work - and in fact, they probably won't. But, the ultimate question is: will Blair give up the Middle East or the Muslim population that resides in the UK? If suicide bombings continue, increasingly draconian laws will be used in the UK as a means of prevention. It's either that or the Middle East, because that is what is at stake here. You do the math.

Anonymous said...

"But why should a Pakistani blow himself up for those reasons? He's Pakistani!!!"

Because he was brainwashed with Saudi ideology at a Paki madrassa? Let's face facts folks. A certain percentage of people will believe anything. Some believe the earth is flat. Others swear they were abducted by aliens. It's not so hard for the Saudi's to warp a few thousand minds here and there. And,that's all it takes to bring the western world to its knees.
In a world thrown back to the 7th century,the House of Saud would be in the catbird's seat....

JoseyWales said...

It's a long long way to go.

Blair has to fight the terrorists and people like londoner, who is in sync with his mayor.

It's a gradual process. Something will give. What? We'll find out. But a war it is.

Every bombings will bring new measures on the part of the gov, the non-muslim brits, and the muslim brits. The costs are borne by everyone, maybe not equally, nor should they be.

You think the Israelis started blowing up the "family" house after the first suicide bomber? If this doesnt stop, there will come a point where unthinkable measures today (lack of foresight and PC crowd?) will become the norm tomorrow.

More violence will bring less soul searching (why do they do it? Oh,they were so polite and crap)) and more action. Period, whether londoner wants to save his own ass or not.

Anonymous said...

Living in London at the moment certainly feels different compared to, say, a year ago. Blair has no choice but to make tough statements, and the stricter measures concerning asylum and security (terrorism act, etc) come as no surprise. As mentioned in some commments, what was shocking to many here was that most of the bombers had been born and bred in the UK. This has brought up the topic of the UK immigration startegy, which was thought generally to be a successful one. But it was revealed in a recent article that hate crime is up by 600% since the attacks. This is worrying news, at a time when the authorities need to work with the muslim community and to win its trust. It seems that muslims in Britain are divided. A cleric recently argued for women to be allowed not to wear the veil if they felt it posed a threat. At the same time, many muslims have protested at the government's tighter scrutiny over mosques'activities. How did Britain, and the West in general, reach this point? Iraq no doubt figures among the main reasons given by many. But can we be certain that this would not have happened had it not been for Iraq? Iraq may just be the straw that broke the camel's back...

Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Raja, there we'll definetely be some tightening in the security law, but for the worse case scenario to happen we need nothing less than the dismantling of democracy in Britain. Under the current circumstances there's no way that an 'Israeli' model can develop in western Europe. You'll need something bigger than 9-11 to get there.

Hassan said...

US: Melting pot, turned fruit salad...

I always thought of the UK as a fruit basket, different entities in their original "peel".

There was a point in time when the Brits boasted allowing non-Brits to live in "environments and societies resembling those back home", as Assafir's Sate3 Noureddine puts it, without forcing them to adopt the new western way of life. We are now witnessing horrors not because of those ghettos, but because of the international, and certainly the British, policy "back home".

It is also a consequence of the UK's decades-old policy of harboring hardline and extremist (mostly sunni) clergy as political asylum seekers, to pressure governmnets in the Arab world and southeast Asia (Egypt, Arab Gulf countries, Pakistan...). Haven't you heard of Qardawi or Abou Qotada?

Being minorities in most of those Arab countries, Shia were not significant local players.

Anonymous said...

Khalas its the end of western imperialism..
isnt it enough that the "capital" of "freedoms" wants to ban an unviolent party [for 50 years], which is Hizb ut-Tahrir.

This is officially the declaration of the defeat of Western capitalism and the victory of Islam and Hizb ut-Tahrir, and soon inshallah, through the re-emergence of the global Islamic Khilafah Rashida.


Informative on issues in Europe

Political Analysis and News from World [English too]

New Civilisation Magazine

Official Site of Hizb ut-Tahrir [Books in Arabic & other languages]

Hizb ut-Tahrir Radio and Leaflets and Media Office

Al-Okab Discussion Forum

Talks from Palestine & Aqsa Mosque

Al-Waie Magazine [arabic]

Al-Nahda Periodic Articles[arabic]

Al Ummah Voice [Daily room in paltalk program]

Books In English

More available sites but that's enough...

Hassan said...

Just an update. Today, August 11, 2005. The UK Home Office declared detaining ten possible threats to security. Abu Qatada is one of them.