Wednesday, September 20, 2006

I'm sorry, I just had to post this...

How does that saying go? A picture's worth a thousand words? Well, this one may be worth a little more. Posted by Picasa

38 comments:

Lazarus said...

hehe, don't apologize. the pic brought a smile to my face :)

Andrey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
le maronite said...

I think that Bolton had a great response when he said Chavez should allow the freedom of speech to his critics as the U.S. allows him.

copy editor said...

He makes the sign of the cross after the Devil reference. Say what you want about his politics, I admire his show-man-ship.

FGA said...

So Raja, I am curious to hear your opinion of Chavez..please do share..

Raja said...

fga,

chavez, as president of venezuela, reminds me of a bitter estranged wife, who has dedicated the rest of her life to screwing her ex over.

why-discuss said...

When Bush accused Iran, Iraq and North Corea of being Axis Of Evil, no one said he was the hero of a comic strip and no one laughed. I think Hugo Chavez did very well to talk about the smell of sulfur.. it suits very well Bush and will always be associated to him in the future. Well done Chavez!
Lots of people laughed a Nikita Kroutchev and Fidel Castro.. so this laughing lady who looks like the Israeli foreign minister can laugh.. the evil is done!

FGA said...

Funny you say that Raja, especially that Mr. Chavez is hugely popular in his native Venezuela according to most polls...Are you suggesting the Venezuelans dont know what is good for them?

FGA

Hani G. said...

Raja you once posted a thread with the seven rebels in today's world. I wanted to comment on it, but didn't want to risk being labelled an Assad/Ahmadinejad sympathiser.

You know my views very well and they are similar to yours at least on the Lebanese front, however I wonder whether your posts risk sending the wrong message to those who don't know you.

Let me put it this way and especially after what happened to Lebanon only a month ago, I would support Chavez in his fight against "American exploitation" any day. I have always been sympathetic with the victim. In this case, Chavez is the victim, not Bush!

Please separate the Lebanese issue from this. Just because he doesn't abide by the rules set by America on the world stage, doesn't mean that he is Iran and Syria's number one ally.

If there is one phenomenon apart from the Iranian tidal wave in the Middle East that I truly detest, it is the Neo conservative, right-wing republican agenda that was strengthened after 9/11.

Fearless said...

[URL=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5614/agorrellseptember212006vv2.jpg[/img][/URL]

Fearless said...

http://photos1.blogger.com/agorrellseptember212006vv2.jpg

le maronite said...

A correction to Chavez (a.k.a. the "Clown") being hugely popular in his own country. These polls are not accurate. The EU would not validate his last election (which was a recall election) because of "major irregularities". He has used violence to eliminate media critical of him and has imprisoned opposition leadership.

The reference to Kroutchev is interesting. Remember his prediction when he hammered his shoe at the U.N. "We will bury you!". Well guess who got buried. Castro is a comatose dictator that has offered nothing to his people for over 45 years. He lives in palaces while his people are so desperate that they float for days on milk bottle rafts to get away from his tyranny.

Lets also understand that since Chavez took power over 200,000 of his people have moved to the U.S. I'm sure that this cannot be looked at as a sign of being hugely popular. Ineterestingly as well is that according to Economist, despite the huge increase in oil over the last few years, the per capita in Venezuela has stalled. Where is all that money going?

turtlecurls said...

FGA wrote, "Are you suggesting the Venezuelans dont know what is good for them?" To answer, as an American - we voted for Bush Jr.

(And currently to get a good laugh in any crowd anyplace, just make a quality joke about Bush. A year & half is it until... Come to think of it on Tuesday, outside the Motor Vehicle Administration on the g'vt property, there was a table to get signers to impeach Bush. Folks were gathering around & no one was complaining about it in this very broad spectrum crowd.)

Hani g., can you describe what recent American exploitation in Venezula you are referring to (beyond posturing commentary in speeches)? Thanks.

Cheri

Fearless said...

Hasan forgot to tell Lahoud that this was a victory. Lahoud’s speech to the UN was totally off the message.

Dancing on the graves of 1300 Lebanese dead and NOT counting the cost of destruction:

Nasrallah claims ‘divine victory’ in Lebanon

Chas said...

Raja,
IMHO there need s to be a "Cedar Flag" rally asap.
Peace, Chas

Sherri said...

Venezuela has a democratic government. It is not a dictatorship government. Chavez was elected as a leader of Venezuela.

From what I have read, there is very much freedom of the press right now in Venezuela.

Chavez chooses to not bow down to US dictates and to openly stand up and criticize US policies and evil practices of the present US leader.

Concerning comments people are flocking to leave Venezuela, if that is even true I suspect it is the wealthy elite of the country leaving, who are not benefitting from Chavez policies aimed at helping ordinary people in Venezuela.

Lirun said...

sherri.. do you think sadaam husein was a democratically elected leader as well leading a democratic government? is mubaraq? is assad?

le maronite said...

Sherri,

You need to get educated about Venezuela. Chavez's rise to power was through a milatary coup.

The poverty rate in Venezuela has increased since he became their president.

the homicide rate in Venezuela is higher than the homicide rate in Afghanistan.

His bluster against the U.S. is a distraction from possibly the worst leadership in the Western hemisphere.

You are correct though that the 200,000 Venezuelans that have fled in the past few years are from the elite class. Which are the ones that invest, manage, teach, research, lead and inform a population. They have every right to live in a country where their lives and property are safe. Chavez has destroyed the institutions that protect the lives and rights of the minority classes and their property.

Chavez is a dictator that has ruined Venezuela. You Sherri are tragically misinformed.

Sir Glubb said...

Sherri:

Here's what Human Rights Watch - no friend of the "Satanic" Bush administration - has to say about freedom of the press in Venezuela (among other things).

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

Sometimes it is better to remain silent than to comment on topics of which you are ignorant.

Sherri said...

le maronite,

Venezuela has a democratic system and Chavez is not a dictator or generally viewed as a dictator.
In the July 30, 2000 election, he received 59.5% of the vote. There was a special presidential recall election held August of 2004. 58% voted infavor of Chavez fulfilling the remaining two years of his term.

Interesting, when I went to do more research on this topic I found an article listing dicators, under Wikipedia. There was a discussion and debate over adding two individuals to the list, George W. Bush and Hugo Chavez, but the editors did not consider either appropriate. There was a much longer debate and discussion over adding Bush to the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_dictators/GW_Bush
The next elections are scheduled in Venezuela in December of this year.

sir glubb,

I made the comment about freedom of the press because of a TV news report I listened to, which may have been referring to a 1999 law which established truth in reporting and the right to reply requirements in Venezuela, passed with the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. I have since learned Chavez has had issues with restrictions on freedom of speech and freedom of the press and violations of this law. I was wrong about this point. www.sipiapa.org/publications/report_venezuela2004o.cfm

Lirun said...

sherri

again - i ask you to define the essence of democratically elected and cordially invite you to rate the democracies of egypt - the former saddam regime of iraq etc..

i think it takes more than elections to deem a regime democratically elected but thats just my view..

le maronite said...

Sherri,

It is absolutely rediculous to consider Bush a dictator. Bush will be out of office in 27 months as mandated by a constitution. Chavez has been in power about 8 years and will likely continue to destroy the institutions of democracy in Venezuela to hold on to power for many years to come. just like Fidel.

Sherri said...

le maronite,

It was not my idea to call Bush a dictator, meaning the idea did not originate with me. I was just pointing out that the issue was raised on a website addressing the issue of world dictators and generated quite a bit of discussion, pages of it.

But I can see arguments for including Bush as a dictator. It is not such a ridiculous idea. Let us consider the issue of election fraud. We have had issues in both of the last two Presidential elections.(2000/issues in Florida and 2004/issues in Ohio and with electronic voting machines which appear to be very capable of being used fraudulently). The stakes are so how for the Republicans to win, what limits will they go to for a win.

If a person is a leader because of fraud, arguably Bush being in this position, where is his legitimacy as a democratically elected leader. And when that person leads like a dictator, hoding himself above all laws, international and domestic, that looks like a dictator. Lying to start wars, he wants to pursue for some personal reason of his own. Bush is supposed to leave office in 2008. Let's see if he actually leaves or whether some state of emergency doesn't occur that keeps him in office. Presidents in the US were not always limited to two terms.

We also still need to see what happens in Venezuela. Under the law there, Chavez is allowed to be a President for another 6 year term.

lirun,

I consider all three of the persons you mentioned to be dictators. I think there were some appearances of elections in all three countries, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq, but there was no real opposition or any ability for other candidates to run for the office. They were not in any real sense true democratically held elections. And all ran or presently still run their countries as dictators.

Another example of what is not a true democracy is Iran. it looks like a democracy, as they have a President who is elected. But the Ayatollah or Spiritual leader has all of the real power in Iran. The President and the legislative body have little power or control over the country and the Spiritual Leader has manipulated who is even allowed to run as President or in other offices in Iran.

Lirun said...

so what were the genuine alternatives in venezuela?

and what constitutes a genuine alternative.. and what threshold of empowerment is required for a person to perceive that they are executing a vote based on real choice and freedom.. and how much knowledge is required.. and what level of political awareness.. heck.. what level of self-awareness is required so that one knows what will best serve one's own interests..

when is a democracy truly democratic and when are its leaders truly democratically elected..

sherri you talk in absolutes - and i ask these questions simply because i am not convinced that you have answers.. however.. these are also issues that lebanon - as it reconstitutes and repairs and heals needs to consider..

what will the face be of the incoming regime..

what democratic characteristics will it have and will these persuade people like sherri - who soak their minds in absolute terms and convinctions - to consider the next version of lebanon to be a member of the democratic community..

lirun
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

chuck said...

i think it's verry unreasonable to call bush a dictator.
bush couldn't make any move without the support of the american public and ofcourse without the support of the europeans and a few arab countries in the area. the american public doesn't realy have to wait untill 2008 if they want to overthrow bush. i guess the majority of americans still support bush, and the europeans understand the threat of the fundamental islam that is spreading widely around europe.

u may say that there is curruption in the american government, or that deccisions that were made were wrong, u can blame the president for being incompetent and say that the government actions r total mistakes,
but saying that bush is a dictator, it's just verry demagog of u.

u should learn a little about u'r countries rulling system and values.

i just read the YOM KIPUR holyday newspaper edition, and it has an artickle about the iranian capability of attacking Israel, which has a lot of frightening aspects, as for Israel will be the first one to be attacked verry heavily if an american attack will happened in iran, so Israel doesn't realy have an interest in such an attack.

another article was talking about the spreading of fundamental islam throught europe, as a reasault of errors of judgment of some european governments in handeling arab imigrants and the problems of integration of imigrants community with the local community. this provides a fruitfull ground for redical islamists to come and persuade people to become "religious".
it is said that in germany and france there is a large (and growing) muslim comunity that is speculated to erupt with a given word of the community's imams.
there r a few muslims in berlin whom established the anti-racist organisation over there, to keep a sain voice in the local muslim community, that is being driven (also because of neglection by the government officials) into the hands of radical islam.
the doors of this organisations office in berlin is reinforced steel. i will let u understand why by urself...

in france the government simply doesn't know how to act, so the internal afairs minister, sarkuzy i think, came to a muslim precent convention in may this year and tried to persuade the muslim community to adress the police if they think that any of their young looks like he is about to join any radical islamist movement or religious group, because joining such groups might mean that their youngs might attempt to do something stupid and that they might get hurt. he tried to adress the mulim community because they say that the government has no way of getting through inside this tight community, in order to locate and dissmental any chance of radical movements to infiltrate into the muslim immigrants community and take it through the path of the radical islam, so the government was trying to get the help of the people.
he was driven out of this convention under the security of his body guards, while the people r shouting after him.

chuck said...

by the way, i don't know about u, but i'd take a "dictator" like bush any day, rather then have a dictator like ahmadinjad, chavez, asad, sadam or any other of the likes of them.

Sherri said...

chuck,

I do not think Bush is a dictator. This issue came up because the website discussion of dictators, and others wanting him added as a dictator. Regarding Bush, he is a leader who I believe has sought to abuse his position and seize more power than he is entitled to. I think he is a person who believes the end justifies the means. He decides what is best for the country and does whatever is necessary to accomplish his goals. There are no rules to follow.

Examples: (1)He decided it was best for the US for Saddam to be removed from power in Iraq, so he told lies to justify starting a war, and had no plans for after the war. Over 100,000 so far are dead, from this US war, the majority of them innocent civilians from Iraq.
There is complete chaos and lawlessness in Iraq. It is so bad, Saudi Arabia is building a fence to keep the outlaw Iraqis out of their country. There was law and order under Saddam Hussein. There were no terrorists in Iraq until the US led them there.

(2)Bush decided a global war on terror attacking all groups all over the world the US decides are terrorists (they all happen to be Muslim)and places on a list was good for the US, so he launched a "global war on terror" that has no end in sight and no clear enemies, even. How many countries will the US attack in this US led war? How many other countries will the US succeed in making a part of its war, as either allies or foes?

A "global war on terror" was not the only way to defend against one terror attack by one group that occurred on 9/11/2001. We could have focused our attention on going after Al Queda and Osama Bin Ladin. But, we did not. He is running free protected by our ally,Pakistan.

Your discussion of Israeli news reports does not surprise me. I read similar reports here in the US very day. Stories to make the public fear and hate outsiders, in particular Muslims and Muslim countries. Stories that justify starting more wars, spreading more hate against people portrayed as different than us.

There is a threat to international security everywhere. Here in the US the recent threat is Venezuela, who is reportedly arming terrorists and spreading communism and forming dangerous alliances with China. (Venezuela is not even a Communist country.)
If we were not so tied up in Iraq, I would not be surprised if we would be at war with Venezuela by now.

Ordinary people do not decide their counries fate, whether we live in a democracy or dictatorship. Our leaders and those in the background who influence/control them decide our fate. There is always a choice they have to make. Do they pursue peace or war as a resolution to conflicts with outsiders? Wars unite people against outsiders and are used by those in power to rally support for the leaders and government. In many ways, leaders use wars to keep their position and power. The wars do not benefit the country or its people (except corporations who make weapons and subsequently secure contracts to clean up the messes the weapons make, and their wealthy shareholders who make billions from the wars). The wars keep the leaders and those who support/control them in the background in power. Wars lead to more wars.

You talk about the threat of Iran. Look at the facts. Iran has not started a war in over 200 years. Their President talks a lot, but he does not make decisions, the supreme leader has all the power.
They have made no threats to start any wars against anyone. But they repeatedly restate that they will defend their country if attacked.
What is the threat from the Muslim religion? The real danger is only from extremists groups and how they are dealt with.

All of the news you talk about can be viewed in another context. Developing military capabilities and strengthening military capabilities is done out of a need to have a defense if attacked by other countries. The Muslim unrest within and outside of the Middle East is the Muslim response to attacks by the West (US and Israel and allies) on Muslim countries and people. They see their people (fellow Muslims and Arabs) being attacked, innocent civilians suffering and dying in the thousands. They see this as an attack on their culture and religion. It is their association with those in conflicts in the Middle East that causes Muslim unrest. The Middle East conflicts I am referring specifically to are the conflicts with the Palestinians, the recent war in Lebanon, the US War in Iraq, and the war in Afghanistan.

I am not saying, by any of my comments, that I prefer particular governments outside of the US to the US government or prefer other leaders. But I see my country headed in the wrong direction in its foreign policy and otherwise. And Bush has certainly played a role in those events.
How many people have already died as a result of Bush invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and how many people will ultimately die? What will be the final cost to human life and humanity of the Bush Presidency?

chuck said...

sherri,

i do believe that bush might have done some things that their legitability might be in question, and he will have to answer to the public for that. i understand that he is already under heavy attack and criticism.
democracy doesn't mean having a regime that is flawless,
it means that the public has the power to speak their mind and make a difference. the majority is the one to decide the fate of the country.
and ofcourse there will always be those who will try to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit, or even try to sabotage this democracy.
the thing is that the public would alwyas be able to decide.
u can say that the government controls the media and that the media eventualy is the one that will change the public's mind, but i don't believe in such an absolute control of the media.
the public will always be able to hear all sides and decide for itself.

what i think is not acceptable, is people who decide to seporate themself from the country that they live in and have a different kind of life that sometimes has it's own laws that colide with the laws of the country in which they live.
if u live in a country, especially if u r a foreigner that asks to be a citizen of this country, then u must accept the laws and basic morals of the country.

u can't come and start threatening to hurt civilians because somebody said something that u don't like.

chuck said...

sorry i stoped, i had to stop writing for a few seconds...

anyway, u can't just start riating because someone said something that u don't like. if u r in a democratic country that one of it's first humanitarian laws is the freedom of speech, then u can't come and impose u'r way of thinking by engaging violence and riots. u have ways to protest against what u think is wrong.

i saw a documentry film about a southern american city that it's people rose up against the comming of kevin moore to lecture in the city university which contains thousands of students from the us and out side of the us, about his documentry, 9/11f.
these people were afraid that kevin moore will talk about ideas that r against what they believe in and they were afraid that he will show the students things that they r afraid will create disorder and distabalise their community, which they prefer to keep away from the world, as one of those community leaders said, "we don't want the world to come into our city".
these people r r trying to dissconect themselves from the country, but they keep their freedom to elect a leader to the country. this is absurd.
they believe that by keeping their mind "clean" of the other side's ideas, they r being patriotic, but they r actually going against everything that their country represents, and to me they r the same as any other foreign group that decides to keep their own laws in their closed community and be untuched by the community they live in, and yet , keep a few rules of the country that they like, such as the right to vote and elect a leader that is their favorite.

i'm not against foreigners, and if u will check out about Israel u will find that in Israel there r many coltures from all over the world.
we have many foreign illegal workers from romania, russia, thailand and even palestinians, and they r treated fairly, no rasist comments against them. we r all actually hugh sympathisers. they even got prime time tv shows that show them in a verry positive view and criticise the government and the police for actions against foreign workers. and it's not that we have a lot of work places to give away, but we understand their situation.

about the news reports about iran and the muslims in europe. i'v been to europe, i visited many of the jewish and muslim quarters in big european cities, and the situation that the newspapers sugest is not so unrealistic and blown out of proportion.
jewish people r afraid to go on the street of antwerpen or paris, wearing their traditional kipa (head cover) or wearing a medalion with david's shild symbol, or any other thing that symbolises their jewdaism because they r afraid of getting beat up. i was so surprised to be walking with this friend of mine, a man in the age of 40, going back from the sinagoge to his house in the jewish quarter in paris, and suddenly he told me to take off my kipa and put it in my pocket so people won't recognise that we r jewish. before i came to europe i thought that these stories were an exageration.
i met this jewish guy that owns a delly in atwerpen. and he told me that one day he was beaten outside of his delli by young muslim teenagers. after that he went and learned how to deffend himself, and while after the incedent he heard a scream outside of his delly and saw a few teenagers hitting some other guy. he told me that he doesn't remember anything from the moment he left the store and untill the moment he returned. he managed to hit the guys that did it and take the beaten guy back to his store.

and these r just 2 stories.

the fact is that muslim society is violent.

i was talking to this muslim guy and he explained to me about vandeta. he said that if a guy offends him or his family and hurts their respect, then he must secure his families honor and kill this guy. and when my girlfriend, which has a different mentality, european mentality, didn't quite understand that, he unswerd verry calmly, "yes, i will shoot him or stab him, kill him in any way i think."

i'm sure that not all muslims r like that but i'm also sure that the majority of them is.

the artickle in the paper proclaimed that the majority of muslims in england, germany and france, believes that the holocoast never happened.
i don't think that it is so farfetched. they believe that because they don't allow themeselves to open up to the community they live in, they prefer to listen to their religious leaders and stick to the prejudice ideas that were rooted inside of them in the countries they came from.

i saw a documentry about a jewish family that left iran in the days of the revolution. they went to Israel and the kids that were born in iran, went to the us to study in universities.
the girl from this family met an iranian guy in the university and she was so excited to meet an iranian that still lives in iran, and she started talking to him about iran.
the guy didn't know anything about jews. he had no idea about what jews r. he never knew that there was ever a jewish community in iran, and jews left iran only 30 years ago ! it's not such an ancient history !
but the jews were earased from the colective memmory of iran, like they never been there.

this is the power of dictatorship.


i can't tell u if bush's acts r right or wrong. i do believe that like the recent war in lebanon, it takes tlonger then it should and it should end soon, and the sooner the better.

i'm not a hugh supporter in wars.
when i was 10 years old i was told that when i grow up there will be no more wars and i wouldn't have to sign in for the army.
i grew up to see the oposite.
and as me so did most of Israelies.

there is an Israeli song that is ironicaly sung by an army band, about the promise that the parents made to their childrens, that they will never have to fight again, and how the parents broke their promise and the children keep going to fight.


it's funny, i write these words and meanwhile i read the news reports on the net,
and i found two articles about denmark, one talking about the advancment in integration of muslims inside the denish society, and the other one says that a right wing party just published caricatures about muhamad, in a bad view.
this will probobly get a new wave of riots over there...

Sherri said...

chuck,

I think the marked recent increase in violence in Iraq and the increased violence in Muslim communities in Europe is a direct result of the Israli Lebanon war. For approx. 30 days, the world watched as innocent civilians were bombed by Israel, with weapons supplied by the United States. There was extensive media coverage and pictures of pieces of children's bodies and graphic war devastation was shown everywhere.
Everyone was powerless to stop the killing of the innocent children.

I remember reading a comment of a reporter saying there's going to be another 9/11 in response to this. There has been no 9/11, but Iraq has blown up and the tension between Muslims and their non-Muslim governments throughout the world has grown. I just read the Shiites in Iraq threatening all the Palestinian fighters there. Iraq has become the battleground to fight US agression against Muslims.

I know that in numbers the Israeli conflict was nothing like many other conflicts today. In the Congo, over 1000 people still die every day from war related causes. Women are raped and then knives or other objects stuck in them to destroy their ability to ever have children. Children as young as three years old are raped and killed. Children are enslaved and forced to be sex slaves and forced to kill and eventually mutilated and left to die.

In Darfur, genocide and ethnic cleansing occurs. As people fight over water, the majority Arab Muslims set out to destroy African Muslims, and the government aids the Arab Muslim groups. The world sits back as over 400,000 people have been killed and continue to die every day.

How do you respond to violence in a manner that decreases violence and wars? Isn't that what we truly all desire? I know a lot of people think there are some people that are just evil and cannot be changed. I just refuse to believe that, or at least refuse to believe that the majority of any people are really like that. We become the people we become because of our life and circumstances and how we choose to respond.

If a person lives in a harsh environment and sees no kindness, then how does he learn to live. Or if he is taught that someone is his enemy and sees only evil from them, how does he feel about them and treat them.

Do we want to see the whole Middle East become like Iraq and many countries in Africa? Lawlessness everywhere. Every day in Iraq there are stories of bodies found that have been severely tortured, often beheaded, before being killed.

All Muslims cannot be killed. All of our enemies cannot be killed. Every time one is killed, new enemies are made. War is not the solution to conflicts. Wars lead to more wars. Wars do not solve anything. What did Israel's recent war solve? Those poor soldiers are still not back home with their families. Hezbullah still exists, stronger than ever. And how many more people hate Israel and the US now?

Do we truly want peace, do we truly seek an end to killing each other? Then, we have to sit down and talk. Talk to everyone involved. Work out the differences. If we care about our future and our children even having a future world to live in, then we need to make that choice. We need to stop choosing war over peace.

Your comment that Muslims follow a specific rule about vendettas is completely misplaced. You just cannot make such a generalized comment to apply to all Muslims. It depends on their backgrounds. This statement was made by one person in one background. My husband grew up in Iran, raised as a Muslim. He was taught no such things as this. Some fanatical groups or groups that live in certain tribal areas might follow such practices, but you just cannot make such a statement against all Muslims.

All Muslims are not evil. All Jews are not evil. All Christians are not evil. All people from the US are not evil.

We are all human beings, made by the same God who cares about all of us. We can reach out and care about each other, or reach out and seek to kill each other. That is our choice.

chuck said...

sherri,

"There was extensive media coverage and pictures of pieces of children's bodies and graphic war devastation was shown everywhere."

talk about brainwashing through the media ?...

"If a person lives in a harsh environment and sees no kindness, then how does he learn to live. Or if he is taught that someone is his enemy and sees only evil from them, how does he feel about them and treat them."

when people that believe in the "cause", or "the end" as raja put it in his post, r willing to sacrifice their childeren and their childeren's childhood and teach them about hating the other side, educating them that the other side does not deserve to live and that they should grow up with a mission to destroy and kill, then they will grow to be just that, unable to see anything past that hate they were tauoght to see.
if Israel have a part of it ? ofcourse.
there is an ocupation. that setteles the basis for the anger. but Israel is willing to negotiate and willing to make compromises.
it takes the other side to stop the hatefull education system of these kids, and teach them that there might actually be another way then just fight, no matter what, untill u destroy the enemy or be destroyed urself, going with the head against the wall. this will bring to no peace.


i never said anybody is evil, and i never said that all muslims follow the same rules.
but the majority of muslims do. there is only a minority of muslims that open themselves to european society and european law.

and yet, Israel is in the middle east and not in europe, and although we try to have a european way of life, or some even say that Israel is becoming more and more like america (although i think we still have socialistic ways that keep us from totaly becoming a capitalistic country),
yet the area that we live in has a hugh civilisation that keeps these traditional, "tribal" as u say, muslims way of life.

another storry that happened only a week ago,
a canadian jewish kid wanted to see petra in jordan and decided to take a trip to jordan and fulfil his dream.
in jordan a local guy jumped infront of his rented car and he hit him. the guy died.
jordan has civil laws but the "tribal" laws also aply over the state laws. and the family of the dead guy had no desire to listen to the state law, they just wanted vendeta. they were waiting for the jewish guy to come out of jordanian prison and then murder him, no matter whos fault it was for the accident (by the way they didn't know he was jewish, it was kept secret).
anyway, after a lot of negotiations with the family they agreed to let him go free for thousands of dollars that the kids familly had to give to the dead guy's family.

so u see, i have a reason to believe that the majority of muslims does follow these rules.
again, not all muslims, but the majority of them.

and again i ask, if the fanatic muslim people who proclaim that violance and destruction is the answer, r a minority and hurt the way of islam and missinterpret the koran, then why don't the muslim leaders all over the world go out against them, and why don't u see any demontration against such people by the muslim community that don't agree with this ?

why is it that europeans r more able to control their anger and emotions then muslims do ?
why is it so easy for muslims to go out marching in european streets, rioting, burning flags and threatening to kill government officials or other political personas ?

i would like to see muslims march in a protest against violance and call for negotiatiance.
i would like to see the muslim society go out against the extremists that preach for death and destruction and that make petitions and recruite people to commite suicide, a holy war in the holy land, against the jews, or the christians or budhist or any other religion that they think is unworthy of existing.

if u let people like that grow inside ur society, and do nothing against it, and u look the other way, then one day it will come back to hunt u.

"when they came to take the jipsys, i didn't give a hand.
when they came to take the jews, i didn't give a hand.
when they came to take the traitors, i didn't give a hand.
when they came to take me, there was no one to give a hand."

this was said about the nazis.
i don't remember who said it but it seems to make my point.

anyway, i'm not against islam. i believe everybody should have the right to live acording to his belifes without being feared of getting hurt and hunted for it.

Sherri said...

chuck,

The story about the Canadian Jewish kid, at least it had a good ending, in the sense that he has his life. I'm still praying for the Israeli soldiers held by Hizbullah and Hamas.

There are religious rules that operate in many Muslim countries, isn't it called Shariah or something like that. This is essentially strictly interpreting provisions of the Koran. It would be comparable to Christians following literally the eye for an eye principles of the Old Testament. And the concept of accepting money to settle matters is also common.

Violence is not just something that belongs to Muslims. In the US recently, a man went into an Amish school in Pennsylvania I think (The Amish are a Christain group that do not believe in violence and live in their own communities with little modern technology). He lined up a dozen girls from ages 6 to 13 and shot them execution style. Three died instantly and at least one other died subsequently. He was 32 years old, drove a milk truck, and undertook this action after taking his three children to the bus for school that morning. It seems he had molested two relatives 20 years earlier when he was about 12 and he planned to molest the girls before he killed them. He just killed them instead and then killed himself. At a funeral, a grandfather of a 13 year old who died was observed telling the youth how they had to forgive the man who did this, as this was their way of life.

Look at the issue of violence. Look at the IRA. They were not Muslim. And I am hearing a little about terrorists in South America. I don't think all of those militias in the Congo who go around raping and killing women and children are exclusively Muslim. I do not think the Muslim religion is even the majority religion in the Congo. And let's look back through Europe's history at all the religious fighting among Christians, which was filled with violence. Early Christians in the Middle East were tortured in horrible ways, beaten til they were barely resembling humans anymore, stoned, and beheaded.
This was before the Muslim religion even existed.

Muslims are human beings, just like I am and every other human being in this world. We need to stop labelling and judging groups by the actions of a few. We do not have to hate and fear people different then us. They do not have to hate and fear us either. And I refuse to fear them or hate them. Instead, I choose to see and recognize their pain and suffering and feel empathy for them and pray for them.

There are Muslim clerics who have called for peace when faced with Muslim extremism, in Iraq and elsewhere.

There are peaceful demonstrations in the West Bank and Gaza that I have read about, where Israeli soldiers without provocation started shooting rubber bullets at demonstrators, even Israeli demonstrators, gravely injuring people.

Peaceful opposition by the Palestinians is not allowed by the Israeli government. This is not right or just.

I read about attacks by Israel at school campuses in Gaza in July, destroying a student council building, a football field, and other school properties. Is this right or just?

I recently read of a practice of torturing of female relatives of Palestinian prisoners. This is further extending the concept of collective punishment. Is this right or just?

When a people is confronted with injustice in the nature of that forced upon the Palestinians, shouldn't the emergence of extremist groups that has occurred be understandable. I do not agree with their practices or techniques at all. But I also see them as trying to fight against injustice and fight for the survival of their people.

chuck said...

sherri,

i just read that the ejyptians have almost lost hope on the palestinians.
the ejyptian foreign minister said that the palestinians r about to miss a chance to have peace, as a resault of the refusal of the palestinian prime minister to accept the arab peace proposal.
he said that "if hania dismises the arab proposal then he should find alone by himself a way to work things out in the palestinian arena".

this adds to Aba Even's words that "the palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance".


u have heard of one incident where soldiers shot one Israeli demonstrator with a ruber bullet and u keep bringing that up. is it because u can't really find any other incident ?
that solitary incident was brought to the news in the Israeli media and was condemned harshly.
and there r no other incidents as such.

peacful oposition of the palestinians is more then welcom by the Israelies.
when was the last time u heard of a peacful oposition of the palestinians ?

each and every day a rocket lands in Israeli civilian areas.
almost everyday we hear of a palestinian that is being captured carying explosives on the way to make a suicide atack.
today one was captured on his way.

how come u r so sensitive to the sufering of the palestinians, so suportive of their agression against us Israelis and u dismiss our frostration of the situation so easily.
why is it so easy for u to belive that we don't want peace, and we like to massacre people, to torture them and torture whole families, and this for more then 60 years ??

we r so fucking frotrated. our government has tried diferent ways to talk to the palestinians. there was kind of a progress untill the hamas was elected. now all progress that was made throughout these 60 years went down the drain.
hell, there is almost no oposition today in Israel. that is because the oposition doesn't know what else to do. they sugested ways to solve this conflict, but nothing worked.
now even the ejyptians don't know what else to do with the palestinians.



the palestinians show each and every time that their only wish is to drive us out of this area. they say that loud and clear. their leaders say that. the leaders who do wish to negotiate and recognise Israel r being called traitors and being threatend with executions.

and yet u continue to call their fight a "resistance", and continue to have this blind belife that Israel wants blood and death and prefers to keep the citisens under constant threats of suicide attacks and missiles rather then have peace with the palestinians.

Sherri said...

chuck,

I do not believe ordinary Israelis want to harm Palestinians and I do not wish harm or pain or suffering or death on either side.

But the Palestinians live in lands occupied by Israel and Israel controls their everyday lives, not leaders that they elect in democratic elections. They do not have their own country and no rights to control their futures.
I am talking about the ordinary people in the Palestinian occupied territories. Israel has the power and exerts that power every day in ways that hurt ordinary Palestinians trying to live their lives.

I read or see every day, when I search for the news on the internet or watch LINK and hear Palestinian news, of injustices that the Palestinians suffer. One of the more recent stories was a report of a Palestinian woman shot by Israeli soldiers. They were questioning her husband, who was deaf. She was trying to intervene and tell them he was deaf and they shot her. This was in front of her 11 children. They refused to call an ambulance and for five hours she lay dying. Ultimately, an ambulance was called and she was announced dead on arrival at the hospital. It turned out this family lived close to a resistance fighter. The family was completely innocent of any crimes against Israel. Their sufferings were just "collateral damage."

Is this justice?

I am not up to date on the latest news on the status of current peace talks. I will have to get back to you on that.

General comments on peace. From what I have read, I believe that the present Isareli government does not want a peace agreement, because they do not want to give up land. The status quo is preferable to them over a peace agreement and giving up land.

This idea that peace can only happen if there are guarantees of security for Israel is hopeless. Nobody can control extremist groups, not the greatest military powers in the world or the Palestinians themselves. Only alleviating the causes of the unrest, the occupation itself, can even begin to stop or bring under control the extremists. Israel demands the opposition be controlled first. Impossible. It will never happen.

How did Israel achieve peace with Egypt, which required Israel to give up occupied lands? US Pressure on the Israeli government.
This is exactly what is needed for a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. And a desire of the people in Israel for peace.

I recently responded to a comment on a Palestinian blog about this issue. And a reply comment was made that I cannot get out of my head. It was essentially this. We need US pressue. And Israel has to want peace. And people in Israel and the Palestinians need to talk to each other. They fear us talking to each other.

If people talk to each other, they realize they have common goals. They care about many of the same things. What they share, the essence of what they are, is that they are human beings. They have families, need to make a living and have an ordinary life, want their children and families to be safe and have a future in this world. We need peace for the ordinary people, the ordinary people in Israel, the ordinary people in the occupied territories.
The majority of the people there are those ordinary people who just want to live in peace, not the extremists. Why do we allow extremists to rob us of peace? We need to push aside the junk and win peace.

chuck said...

sherri,

u talk about Israel occupying palestinian territories, and Israeli government that wishes to keep the status quo, but the
FACT is that Israeli gov. agenda (Sharon's and now Olmert's) was giving up land without any agreement, moving out of territory without any negotiations with the palestinians, and recieving nothing in exchange.

the government before was ready to compromise and give away land to the palestinians, Sharon gained power in the Israeli politics after these talks were stopped because of the palestinians.

Barak was most willing to accept almost 90% of the palestinian demands, nothing like any other prime minister ever gave the palestinians. and yet, arafat decided instead to start an intifada.

today, Israeli officials r talking to palestinian officials, the Israeli foreign minister have disscussions with abu-mazen, the palestinian president in order to make some progress, while the palestinian gov. is willing to sacrifice their civilians and let them live in poverty just so they can stick to their absurd statment of not acknoledging Israel as a state.
this is a suicidal gov. willing to fight till the death, that's the death of all their people. just like hisballa's fight over the backs of the lebanese, the this gov. is fighting on the backs of the palestinian civilians.

this gov. calls abu-mazen a traitor and calls him to resign his office because of his talks with Israeli officials.
does that sound to u like people that want peace ?

it's good of u to talk about the Israeli gov. wish to keep the status quo and then say how the palestinians on the other hand r such a peace loving people that Israeli gov. is actually destroying all of their hopes to live in a peacfull relations with Israel,
but that's not the case.
it's merely u'r wishfull thinking.

it's hard for me to see the wish for palestinians to live in peace when their prime minister calls in every convention that the palestinians will fight untill Jerusalem is palestinian, untill the destruction of Israel, untill the jews will be driven back to europe, and other such "loveable and suportive" words. just makes u feel like running towards the palestinian people and embrace them with all of our hearts...

the palestinians r now strugling between themselves, the fatah against hamas.
i just hope that fatah will manage to come out with the upper hand, because that will be the only way to continue negotiations towards peace.
otherwis the suffering of both the Israelis and the palestinians will continue, and the middle east will continue to bubble.

Sherri said...

chuck,

The giving up land without agreement plan you refer to was not fair to the Palestinians. Why should Israel be able to unilaterally dictate piece terms? Is it because they have the superior military capabilities, more guns? Well, more guns will always hurt and kill more people, but it does not buy peace. Why does nobody ever learn this lesson?
Not Russia (invading Afghanistan), US (invading Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam), or Israel (invading Lebanon and other Arab countries and peoples).

With regards to Lebanon, everyone always brings up United Nations Resoltions about disarming Hizbullah. But most people from Israel and the US too want to ignore those 66 United Nations Resolutions Israel has not abided by. (I actually think most people in the US don't even know about them).

You talk about Israel giving away land in exchange for nothing. This land you talk about is not supposed to belong to Israel. Read the United Nations Resoltions. Either there are international laws that apply to everyone (including the US and Israel), or we choose lawlessness and whoever has more guns to decide the future of our world.

I think part of what Hamas and Hizbullah are both fighting for is dignity and respect and justice and a fair resolution to the forming of a Palestinian state (with respect to Hamas). Israel acts as if they can just dictate things because of their superior military and bargaining power. As to Lebanon, Israel continues to invade air space like they always did, completely ignoring Lebanon's sovereignty. And I have read Israel is stealing
Lebanon's water again. Why is this justifiable? Why is Israel subject to no laws? Is it the superior miltary power?

You can keep blaming only Hamas for the suffering of the Palestinians right now. And they can keep blaming Israel. And people can keep suffering and dying, mostly Palestinians. Or both sides can compromise and make changes that lead to true peace. The choice is between more violence and suffering or peace.

I continue to pray for peace in the Middle East, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and pray for the safety and safe return to their families of the three Israeli soldiers still held captive by Hizbullah and Hamas, as well as prayers for all of the Palestinians and Lebanese that Israel holds as prisoners in its jails and their families (May God be with them ).

chuck said...

sherri,

Israel was withdrawing from the palestinian land, while evacuating thousends of people, Israelis, from their homes for the past 30 or more years, becuase it was a concenzus among Israelis that this land is not Israeli and it is neccecery to show the wilingness of Israel to make compromises.

it was handeled onesided because the palestinians were not willing to negotiate under any terms.

but instead of what we were hoping the resaults to be in the palestinian public, it only made them think that this was an effect of their use of force and suicide bombers and decided, instead of going towards Israel with peacfull intentions, to fight harder, with the false idea that increasing the amount of violence will bring more withdrawls of Israel from land without them having to compromise on any subject that they disslike.

it doesn't mater if this land belongs to Israel or not. it was occupied under terms of war, it was neccecery for Israel to occupy this land in order to drive the enemy away. it would have been the same if the jordanians would capture this land, capture tel aviv or any other Israeli territory. the same thing as the europeans taking over german land in the WWII.

the main thing is giving it back to the palestinians and there is no way this will be happening right now without any willingness of making compromises by the palestinian side. this is something Israel cannot accept.
u can't tell people, "ho yes offcurse we r willing to negotiate about u living the territory and us claping our hands when u leave and give u nothing in return, not even a promise to live in peace with u. we just want u to give us the ability to have our own state, build our own army and then, one day when we r strong enough, atack u and drive u away from here so we can take over the land".

i'm sorry but this is not our idea of negotiating.
u want to negotiate ? be ready to give something back.

it amases me how u keep deffending the hamas gov. while they defy any international law, call for no negotiations with Israel, those who do wish for peace r labled as traitors, and they call for fighting Israel untill Israel is totaly deffeated and Israelis driven away.
they don't talk about 67' borders or any of such compromise that will keep Israel around.
and u keep admiring them, saying their fight is for respect (?!) and dignity (??!!) and therefor is legitimate (??) and call for peace in the same sentence.

most people die in fights over their so called dignity, in clubs, pubs because of girls,
on the roads because someone cut someone off, so u want to tell me each fight is justified because these people fought for dignity ?
then i must say u have a prety twisted sense of justice.

what kind of dignity r they fighting for ??
the palsetinians r in the worse state they have ever been in.
hamas brought them to this state they r in. that is with their way of refusing any setelment with Israel, denying any kind of agreement ever taken between Israel and the palestinians, and their wish to keep fighting untill their people r dead.
they were the ones who decided the do not need any support from Israel, the US or the european commuinty. they even deny the arab sugestions to help with organising a setelment right now.
does that sems to u like someone who is willing to have peace ?

and on the other hand abu-mazen is willing to negotiate, but he is being called a traitor, and hurting the palestinian interests.
do the palestinians have another interest rather then having peace ??
makes u think, doesn't it ?

the fact is that untill now the palestinians have not been willing to compromise any of their demands, however absurd they might be, in order to achieve peace.
they rather chose to continue their fights.

that is when Israel has offered lots of compromises on Israels side.
come on ! Israel gave the palestinians guns !! weapons !! in order to build their own army !!
what more do u wish ?? what other country would go so far in order to show the will to have peace ??
can u show me one country who was willing to give it's enemy guns while there is still a stste of war between the two ????

will u show me one recent palestinian statment showing their will to have peace with Israel, living side by side ?

nefarious2 said...

Say what you may about Chavez...this picture is atrue moment of CARPE DIEM...he knows how to rattle Bush and revels in the process....
Got to set something straight here though..Chavez doesn't silence his opposition, especially considering that the opposition is funded by the CIA and pays homage to the ideology of the U.S.
And as per a previous comment herein...Venezual;ans LOVE Chavez, and he's probably the best thing that has happened to Venezuela since Bolivar kicked out the Spanish.