Tuesday, September 05, 2006

One step away from picking his toes

hat-tip, Firas.


Loli said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dany said...

Now I know why he's called "the flamingo kid"
I wish he was pink though !

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

What are those things under the blue tablescloth, his wives?

Dimitry said...

(continuing discussion from another thread)


I once overheard a conversation between couple of my friends, that went roughly like this
"So, how did you argument about X with Y end?"
"Ah, you know, like all arguments between people who know what they're talking about... We realized we disagreed about the definitions."

Regardless of through what glasses do we view the conflict, it is possible to compare the logical constructs we call "views", and find the source of disagreement. It will usually be in definitions, or perhaps the basic assumptions from where one is starting, which stems from his fundamental beliefs and morals. Once such disagreement has been spotted, it is usually an impasse. What I'm trying to do is to get to this point, identify where the source of disagreement lies. And I really don't think this can be summed up with "different glasses".

Let's drop for the moment the Palestinian issue, and focus on Lebanon - sympathy aside, unresolved Palestinian issue doesn't necceserily require war between Israel and Lebanon, does it?
You think Israel was wrong to attack after July 12th, and should have negotiated instead. I explained why I think such a move would have been not only futile, but counter productive. It would have been total surrender to blackmail that would've invited constant and repeated attacks of this kind. Negotiation would therefore mean Israel failed its most basic duty as a state - protection of its citizens.
So, where do you disagree with this?

tears for lebanon said...

this is what I believe....

I hardly beleive that the capture of 2 soldiers can provide justification for going to war. It is wrong....an example is the US did not wage war with palestine when the 2 FOX news reporters were captured...it is simply wrong to punish an entire nation for these actions.

I can not accept your reasoning for justification of Israel's 'right' to war of retailation in hopes of deterring these actions again in the future. I believe, as you, that israel has a right and obligation to protect their citizens and soldiers...but there has to be limitations to the extent of those actions. And these 'reactions' have to be in propotion to the perceived threat and actions of the opposition.

I feel Israel has failed those Israelis citizens that died (over 130)during this Lebanon 34 day war...and it certainly caused despair to many more who fled to bomb shelters....(not to mention the Lebanese who suffered in mass as well)...Israel had an obligation to those Israeli civilians too and because it would not even attempt to try diplomacy first, they died, maybe needlessly...who knows now...we can never know because Israel did not try any other method, except a militant one. You can only guess....but you will never know.

And did Hezbolla really learn the lesson by military force?....wasn't this the basis for your rationale and reason for the strong militiant hand?....you may say yes,that they were given a lesson... but I would argue that if they truely did...the 2 Israeli soldiers would be home with their families tonight.

Really Dimitry, I dont think that the despair that this war caused, brought any real and lasting changes, nor anymore safety to Israel for the future, and I dont think that any 'lessons' were learned...except that Israel 'can' and 'will' use force....but that is an old lesson that Lebanon learned many many years ago....not on July 12.....and yet it still did not deter Hez on July 12.....hell it doesn't deter anyone

....including Israel when it decides to capture and prison who it chooses (and no I am not just talking about the '3' Lebanese prisoners that keep being mentioned). In fact, as a side note, many Lebanese believe that there are upward of thousands of both Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners held illegally in Israel...in fact I beleive it was by BT Selem for years who claimed this.

Regardless, i think that the Lebanese (including Hez) got a 'refresher course' on Israel's brutalality...but nothing more....that is why I can not accept that military action was the only way to go....and of course because I think the disproportionate response was immoral.

Dimitry if you are goning to respond and say that by israel's actions have helpled Lebanon's government take control over their land...and remove Hez from 'military' strength...I find that a weak argument....for I believe that Lebanon would have reached that point without israel's 'help', it was just gonna take a little time....remember, it was only reborn about a year ago...and also, Hez will probably just become 'the military' now anyways.

I still think that we are at an impasse...feel free to try to prove me wrong ;) Good night.

Dimitry said...


I think at least the issue is the different way we see the July 12th attack (which included, btw, not only the attack on the IDF patrol and the kidnapping, but also shelling of several civilian villages as a distraction). You see it as the reason for the Israeli offensive. I see it as the straw who broke the camel's back (and kneecaped him, to boot). The last 6 years Israel saw constant attacks by HA, including two kidnappings, ocassinal shelling of military bases and civilian townsand villages. In addition, HA was building stokepiles of weapons that could cause significant damage to Israel, and never made it a secret that their intentions were not only defensive but also offensive. At some stage one should say - enough is enough.

Besides, there's the elemnt of responsibility. Lebanon is theoretically a soveriegn state. July 12th was either act sanctioned by the government, and therefore was effective declaretion of war by Lebanon on Israel, or it wasn't, and in which case the government was obligated to do something about it. They didn't, ergo. Israel chose a third path - not to concider the Lebanese governemt actual soveriegn, and treat the HA as the sovereign entety that declared war on Israel. However, given the fact that on the paper, the Lebanese government is the sovereign, Israel had any right to pick the former view.

You say Israel didn't negotiate. I say it did. Last kidnapping. What did it bring us? More attacks. I do not see a signle way repeating the experience wouldn't have replicated the results as well. It would've been another feather in HA's cap. Another celebrated victory. Something no Lebanese would complain about, at least not particularly loudly.

You say at some stage the Lebanese government would've brought them to heel. Don't see it from where I'm standing. The Lebanese government was mainly treading water, while HA's strength was constantly growing. The only effort that was done to turn Lebanon into a real sovereign state was your talks, which was a wonderful pastime for all involved and allowed everybody to nod and say "we're working on it" while doing nothing but keeping on the status quo. And do you really think it is reasonable to say to the Israelis "please die and be blackmailed quitely and don't interrupt us while we sort out our internal problems"?

As I said to sherry in some thread, you're right that Israel failed to achieve all, or even most, of its intentions (although I dare say there's some detterent effect nonetheless, as eviedenced by Nassallah's need to defend July 12th by various, different and contradicting excuses). But that is due to fauly execution (faulty isn't quite suitable work, but I try to avoid vulgarity on this blog). This doesn't mean the course of action was wrong.

chuck said...

tears for lebanon,

i'd have to say i dissagree with u on this.
like dimitry wrote, this war didn't happened just becuase 2 or 3 soldiers were kidnapped.
u have to understand the legitmacy that this war got, at least at the first 2 weeks. people were urging the govrnment to take care of this problem. people were willing to spend time in shelters, only so that the army will make sure that the north border will remain quiet.
such legitimacy for war is not something that is taken for granted. people don't wish for war.
this was a concenzus both in left wing, right wing, and center parties of the government.

u see, lebanon was a sour wound for Israel for more then 15 years.
we thought that we closed this wound when Israel withdrew in 2000.
but then there was the kidnapping and killing of 3 soldiers, 3 months after the withdrawl.
the problem was that Israel didn't set the rules back then. maybe if a masive attack on hisballa targets then, to show that this will not pass as a normality, might have changed things and wouldn't have brought us to the situation today.
this was Israel's fault.

u see, Israel kept quiet then and hisballa took it as a sign that Israel will suffer quietly.
so in Israel everybody was starting to get back to normal life, the north was blossoming, the turists were rushing in to the cabins on the border, and everything was fine, the wound was hilling. but hisballa was hitting that wound again and again untill it was no longer the kind of pain that we can take.
u could take a hit once or twice, but eventually u will burst.

and the thing that upset Israelies the most is that the lebanese government didn't really do anything to stop hisballa. lebanon was given time to handle hisballa, and it didn't. i know that there were other issues that needed to be taken care of in lebanon, but the Israeli border was neglected completley, and more then that, hisballa gotten stronger and had more and more support in lebanon.

i also dissagree about the changes that this war brought.

the border of Israel-lebanon will not be the same as before, wether the UN force will engage hisballa or not, the next attack that hisballa will make on this border won't be taken so lightly, not by Israel or by the international comunity.
i'm sure that lebanon will take care of that too, from now on this border won't be neglected as before, i'm sure of that.

hisballa lost it's strongholds and many of it's centers in lebanon. they might be rebuilt but it has lost it's legitimacy and it's blind support of the lebanes, so i hope. i hope lebanese will find thathisballa is not something that they can't live without.

other then that the connection of hisballa-syria-iran was revealed, and the manipulation of all 3 over the lebanese government
is something that the lebanese will be concidering a lot more seriously then before.

this war didn't only changed lebanon, it also made a change in Israel. the government will concider a new approach both in the lebanese direction and in the palestinian direction. the whole government agenda is changed. no more one sided deals.
no more one sided withdrawls. it has shown to be useles.
the readiness of the army and other flaws that this war revealed will be taken care of. the tactics of how to engage war like the last will be renewd.
the government and the military r facing a lot of criticism and will have to give answers regarding this war.
and i'm sure that there r many other aspects which i didn't adress here that will be altered because of everything that has happened.

i can't say if it needed a whole war in order to achieve all these changes, but something was bound to happened.
and the reasons why this war was handled as it did, and why did it took so long, without achieving the declared goal of returning the kidnaped, will be looked into.

the fact is that this war started as a military operation and was not supposed to take more then 2 weeks.

anyway, the state investigator's office allready started looking into all the aspects concerning the way that the government handeled the war, and as for being an independent body that isn't influenced by any governmental officals, i hope it's conclusions would be objective and concrete.

tears for lebanon said...

Dimitry, Chuck

thanks for your insight...like i said before....'different eyeglasses'

thanks to both of you, salam.

chuck said...

tears for lebanon,

what, u don't agree with anything i wrote ? nothing of that makes sense to u ?

Dimitry said...


The reason I'm hanging around on those blogs is discussions with reasonable people, and you're one of the few on here who qualifies (too bad Raja and Doha pretty much avoid discussions). So... I'm rather saddened to see you've decided it's pointless, but obviously, it's entirely your right.

tears for lebanon said...

on the off chance that you guys still take a peek....hi

Chuck, I peeked at the songs/videos from Orphaned Land on their website. I wasn't able to understand the Hebrew lyrics, so I read the lyrics of one of their songs posted on their website....thank you. Heavy metal music is an aquired taste...but I did enjoy it.

Dimitry...me, reasonable? Hmmm ususally I hear the opposite ;)...and coming from you...well I take that as a huge compliment!

i just got tired...sorry. truth be told...i kinda miss our chats...i just got tired of always disagreeing...

anyways praying that you are both well and safe. salam.

chuck said...

tears !

good to hear from u.
i was already thinking that u might have accidently mistaken a cluster bomb dode to be a football...:)

anyway, i miss our chats too.
the only one i didn't brainwash completley yet is sherri, she is putting a hard fight, she just won't break down. :)

anyway, glad u enjoyed the band.it's a good band, i'm actully listening to it right now.

so peace, salam, shalom, pace on all.