Friday, August 18, 2006

Ball Now In Hizballah's Court

Yesterday, Walid Jumblatt and Hariri Jr. spoke their minds. The crux of their message was very simple: Hizballah, we acknowledge the victory you claim, and the efforts of your fighters in the face of the Israeli military machine. However, we ask you, for the sake of Lebanon, to "de-commission."

Jumblatt, I believe, for the very first time, used the term "civil war," in the sense that if Hizballah did not act in Lebanon's interest, a new civil war might ensue.

As I watched both press conferences, one thought kept recurring in my mind: "strength through weakness."

It is obvious that the most fragile entity in this mess is Lebanon. Both Hariri and Jumblatt painted the country as being on the brink - and that if Hizballah did not make the right decisions for the sake of the country, Lebanon will crack.

Today, Hizballah needs to weigh two contradictory imperatives. On the one hand, its leadership feel that it is an integral part of the Syrian-Iranian-Hizballahi coalition, and that if it drops out, it will leave its allies weaker and more vulnerable. Let me add that Hizballah is especially crucial to that alliance because it is the only member that (prior to July 12, at least) could physically launch attacks on Israel, and “stir things up” whenever the alliance felt the time was right. On the other hand, Hizballah is also being made to feel that nothing less than the fate of Lebanon as a state and a country is at stake here.

Will this political maneuver work? Will Hizballah respond positively? We cannot but wait and see.

76 comments:

Doha said...

Jumblatt looked exhausted and uncomfortable in his press conference yesterday. I wonder what kind of pressures he faced during the past month.

Anyways, we'll wait and see with our hands on our hearts.

JoseyWales said...

I wish they, and others and the press, would try to elaborate on the logical cobclusion of all this:

Further possible deadlier Israeli attacks, a collapsed army, other Lebanese communities won't stay silent forever, economic calamity for all...

Al said...

junblat if you dont know him always plays with the winner, Syria Killed his father, but he continued to have relations with syria for 30 years. Junblat's army destroyed and killed the most number of christians and their villages in the lebanese wars, he was a tool for syria.
If you want to forsee the future listen to junblat speach.

Junblat Bet on US and new middle east before harriri died, and when harriri died he voiced his silence and became defiant of syria.

Before this war june-12 war started he chose the israeli side, which i think was a calculated decision.

NOW junblat bet his ace on the US, the king on france, his queen on Saudi, and his Jack on Lebanon, he threw a 10 of spades on HA. If you noticed Ghazy Aridi his aide started changing his tone to that one attacking the US.

Any how, long story short, his bet didnt bring him back any returns, he is going to do two things now.
A_Try to tip the balance for the US favor
B_try to say, well i supported the resistance, if Iran syria wins

Finally Junblat is going to dread a fair election with a proper division of the electoral districts.

Raja said...

Al,

ya habibi. your "analysis" is basically haki salon! ace, king, queen, bla bla bla... what the hell, man?

your notion of politics is extremely warped, to say the least! At a time when the national leaders seek some sort of compromise, to reach common ground and save the country, you come out screaming hail mary! I don't get it! Would you rather every single person take an Absolute position based on some sort of Principle, get guns, and start shooting at each other?!?!?

Lebanese need to get it THROUGH THEIR THICK SKULLS: Compromise is a VIRTUE in politics. Maybe not in religion, or business, but definitely politics. That, my friends, is why I believe Hizballah, and its "divine obstinance" may eventually ruin Lebanon!

Al said...

Raja,
dont you think that 'divine obstinance' has been flexible given the original plans. they came to a compromise of co-existance.

if not, how do you suggest we deal with it?

Raja said...

al,

you're trying to get away with "coexistence" as a compromise?!?!?!?! I'm sorry dude, you're definitely going to have to do better than that! In fact, MUCH better!

Al said...

so do you call that flexibility on your part? :-)

It is just ironic, cos you preach flexibility as long as its at the expense of the others.

Omar said...

Id certainly like to see the Hizib integrated with the Lebanese Army... and finally remove that terrorist label off them.

anthonyb said...

If HB integrates with the Lebanese army chances are it is because Nasrallah controls the country, including the army. Then he can really try to invade Israel.

Have fun.

Raja said...

al,

on one side of this divide, you have a loose coalition of most of Lebanon's political forces that represent most of the country's sects. Even Michel Aoun, at least principally, is on that side of the divide (several of his MPs, for example, have said that it is time for the "resistance to morph into an unarmed movement").

On the other side of this equation, you have a lone hold-out that goes by the title of Hizballah.

Seeing this in front of you, (i.e. all your countrymen except for yourself on one side of an issue), who would you say needs to compromise?

yuval from tlv said...

raja -

can you please explain me the political situation in Lebanon?

what parties do you have?
how much power do they got?
and what parties make the current coalition?

i would like to know that..

Random Ranter said...

al -

I am hardly an Israeli. They have their own problems and I am sure we can find a blog to discuss those. But, we are talking about HB and how they use innocent lebanese civilians as human shields. Hiding behind innocent people is perhaps the most cowardly thing a human being can do and you support that?

HB is destroying Lebanon and they are using Iranian money to rebuild false trust with the citizens of southern lebanon so they can renew their campaign of hatred and violence. why do you allow this to occur?

Solomon2 said...

Raja, is Amal on Hizballah's side or not?

GSH - Observer said...

raja, al;

currently Lebanese politicians have 2 camps to chode from:
1.syria/Iran (anti-USA)
2.USA/Israel(since the USA is promoting the Israely agenda)

Lebanon is split between these 2 choices, both have their pro and cons.
1. anti-USA camp
pros:
no free land to Israel or any other subjegations,
quick peace
cons:
takes longer to sign peace,
possible wars,
getting back under Syria's control.

the USA camp
pros:
possible aid,
peace with Israel,
No Syrian control (replace it by USA's control)
cons:
the price of the quick peace with Israel (what would it be?),

Possible confrontation with the pro-syrians (civil war),

Can you trust the USA? teh USA policy is incoherant, short sighted and unreliable in the ME (last 33 days were a proof of that).

The Leb. leaders have to chose between these 2 camps, no 3rd.

the March 14 people can't chose the Syrian\Iranian camp, they have brought their relation with the Assad regime to a very very bad position.
those who chose the Syrian camp, well, they don't want to give up to the USA like the rest of teh arab world did.(although i believe that if Israel gives the Golan to Syria Assad will sell those Leb. in a heart beat).

al, you say the Junblat was working with syria for 30 years....who wasn't ?
look at Jaajaa, when he refused his Syrian given ministry seat int he early 90's he ended up in jail...
when Syria was in Leb it was either Syria's way or the High way, that doesn't mean when Syria is out you can't voice your opinion.

check Aoun, he was planning to attach Syria in '89, look at him now....

GSH - Observer said...

Correction:

in the anti-USA section under pros i made a mistake by adding "quick peace"
please ignore it.

Al said...

Raja,

You never show your full deck. I like the way you put it, but do you think israelis would do the same. Meaning if 60% of israelis think that occupation of golan and gaza is useless, do you think that they will call Russia asking them to support them to retreat?

To go back to your question, if all arabs surrendered to israel, do we have to....

To hit the question on the head, if most lebanese like you argue are willing to give away shib3a, to leave the 52 squre km (7 villages) annexed in the 70s (salha, tarbi5a..), some litany water. 60% of lebanese want these, what would be your oppenion. Let me tell you I wouldnt budge... meanig i would stick to my demands because i am not asking israel to disapear, i want what is owed to me.

Raja, there are turning points in history that signal a fall and rise of a nation. This is the first where israel can destroy but can not win the war against an arab country or a militia if you insist? Do you want to go that course or do you chose to surrender.

do you know why there isnt a curdish state? Because at some point more than 50% of kurds didnt care much for a state, once you loose some thing in history its hard to regain... very hard.

I met one of the early settlers (Jewish) to Palestine, he came from poland, the first thing he did he got a passport from the government of palestine, 70 years later, the man is still there, but the passport that he carries is invalidated. You know what good for them. Palestinians were busy with them selves, they sold them 30% of the land, and ran away from the 60%. If I were israeli, i would say screw them. Israeli's terrorised them, the ran away, came to lebanon and started acting big boss.

I remember when israelis came in 82 palestinians were running like chicken. We welcomed the israelis (trust me) i lived in sour at the time.. dont think that shi3a are dum and they just want to fight, but israel failed to fullfil their promiss. so we learnt our lesson.


Ranter,..... It was israel that dropped thousands of tons, go to aljazeera, watch how many funerals today, it was ISRAEL IMF, IDF, that killed them.
Our chore is black now, from your anger..... with the oil that got spilled.

Besides, I dont see you and the israelis runnnig a blank cheque to rebuild. You say that you want to kill HA, send the military arms, you have lots of it.. Come on prove it,

I have an offer for you, we want to kick iran and syria as sponsor, are you willing to pay..... hehe.....

:-) chelax Mr. This propaganda and reasoning of yours works with red necks who cannt tell france from Russia, stop insulting my intellegence.....

Al said...

gsh- you are right about that one,

but remember that the US policy threw lebanon in the hands of syria, and left the christian rebelion destroyed when they took out Aoun.

Difference between any lebanese politician and junblat is that syria didnt kill all of their fathers... :-)

I mean marwan fares left the country, (he is an orthodox leader)
but junblat is a different kind of a man, he took his cousins wife by force :-) lol.

I mean i think that they guy smart, but i think he takes too many changing position.

I also like your Summary,its pretty good.

GSH - Observer said...

al;

I did mention that the USA is unreliable.

if their is anything we - Lebanese - should've leanred the last month is the Following:

1.No one cares about us, no one (arabs, USA, Syria, IRan, EU, France...etc)...they will trade us like peanuts.
2.We are as strong as our unity.
no matter what we chose to do (go to war or sign peace) as long we are united we are strong and we have some power (this is not a Clichet), look at the position of Saudia and Jordan at the beginnning of the war, and follow it how it changed after a while, simple because everybody was counting on an internal front in Leb...but we proved smarter then that (regardless of how anyone feels about the other...we stood up together).

Andrey said...

al,
can you pleace tell me why did shia turn against Israel? (After 82, I mean)

Al said...

Andrey,

it was israel that turned their back on us.

Here are the facts, the captured all men, put them in mosques for 15-20 hours in search of PL.

they asked all residents of sour to sleep on the beach for 36 hours to conduct a search for PL.

they took all lebanese army personell hostage from 2days-3 months. They took my dad for 5 days, he was put in a container with a cloth bag on his head. My dad refused to eat for 3 days, he asked for his right as a prisonor of war. 5 days later, a major general told him, 'you are a good servant of your country and let him go.'

they hung my 17 year old cousins upside down in search for intell, which they didnt have.

they paid certain lebanese people to act as spys.........

The US came in 1983 to shell beirut, mostly muslim areas. thats when muslim countries interjected and they cause the explosion of the marines.
See at the time the US thought that they can come in and occupy, they did no consultations.

within 2 years israel (sharon ) implemented the iron fist, new rules,
- no less than 2 people in one car
- any car moving when the israeli convoy passes is shot on sight
- any car moving after 6Pm was shot on sight
- any car parked next to the route (regular) is crushed
- they had up to 15,000 people in khayam and atlit (israel) both were major prisons.

Then they built a pipe to pump water from litani river to israel...
by then all leftist movements became resistance, but the resistance became. leftist movements, all parties except Lebanese forces, Phalange were resisting occupation.

we got rid of palestinians, but we have a much more vicious army, israel's credibility went below zero and hence became the real enemy. their agression fueled islamic right of self defence called jehad...

here is what your sharon has done. after he left he said, we will never go back to the lebanese mud.

Shi3a are determined people, israel and us better break a deal with them or good luck.

i guess thats more than what you asked for, .....
should i go on, within the first year the lie was realized,
Whomever they

from them coming in to clean up palestinians, we were happy with that, but they came to stay, they annouced their

Al said...

gsh-

luv you... you could be more head on....

Akiva M said...

"No Syrian control (replace it by USA's control)"

What exactly does "USA control" mean to you?

Does the US control Britain? Israel? Pakistan? Egypt? Jordan?

How? What are the impacts on the policy/governance in each of those countries? How do you explain the wide variance in policies/governance in each of those countries?

The fact is, if Lebanon wants to end the wars there are two - and only two - things it needs to do. First, sign a peace deal with Israel. Second, keep - and make sure that all Lebanese groups keep - the peace.

In the context of a peace deal, you can discuss the issue of land, water, prisoners and the end result will probably be an Israeli commitment to leave Shaba'a to Lebanon provided that Syria agrees, Israel reiterating that it does not have any designs on Lebanese water (but possibly offering to pay for some or engage in joint and mutually beneficial development projects) and Israel releasing Nesser to Lebanon (spies can go free, no big deal), keeping Quntar (child murderers should rot in jail) and again and again saying that they don't have Saqaf.

Where's the problem?

Al said...

US will dictate president, amount of exports and to whom, dictating funding, major contracts are forced to US companies
creating an american base in lebanon, handing out many many people because they opposed Israel or US or both.

How do you think lebanese people think about handing their leaders for trial in the US.

Most dangeously, using lebanon as a jump start to turn syria upside down..... and also iran... :-) this will make the syrian people hate us even more, they will block the borders, and then we will really depend on US Aide.

we can not competer industially with israel, so we become a market for your people ..hhahahahah Akiva, i know the taste of an israeli water melon and tomatos... i used to have a pass during the occupation to go to israel, it was called a yellow pass, it was some form of a privilage...

Akiva, Egypt lives on US funding,how shamefull :-) Jordan is starving while israel is thriving,,,, this is the price of peace with israel, it achieves the land of israel from ephurates to the nile dream :-)

as long as there is 1 lebanese alive that dream of larger israel shall never realize..:-)

Andrey said...

Jordan is starving ? I heard that their economy is very high right now, with all those who sold iraq, living in Amman now, spending their milions... Israels economy is based on hi-tech, agriculture, weapons, turism. There is a - lot left for you, once you start working, and stop pointing fingers (and note that we don't sell to arab countries (not much) and you can do it friely)

Ibn Bint Jbeil said...

please consider linking to my blog on your list of "Bloggers of Lebanon"

http://ibnbintjbeil.blogspot.com/

nip said...

Al,

As terrible as the event you had sounds, please specify a way in which Israel would distinguish between PL terrorists from the rest of the crowd. War is ugly, I already mentioned it.
I don't except your notion of surrender to Israel. Israel withdraw to the blue line and have no ambitions to aquire more land. If you call peace with Israel surrender, then we have a bit of a problem.
I don't understand the discussion on shebaa farms. Accroding to the U.N, this is Syria land to be returned to Syria as part of a deal between Syria and Israel. Syria refuses to sign the document that declares that this is Lebanese territory. What do you want from Israel? why do we need to give you these farms back when the U.N says it is not yours?

Raja said...

al,

you and i can sit here til kingdom come, and argue. I can bring in all sorts of rationale, reasoning, examples, etc..., etc.... You, no doubt, can do the same.

let us assume that you and i lived in a country and had to somehow rule it together. how do we come to agreement? you think you're completely right. i think i'm completely right. how is it that we decide what to do?

well... we sit down, and both agree to abide by a decision-making mechanism. We say, "no-matter how much I think I may be right, for the sake of the country, I will abide by the results of this decision-making mechanism."

If either of us decides to break-away from the mechanism, and do whatever it is that we like whenever we like to, then we're basically condemning our country to nothingness.

do you understand?

nip said...

Al,

Egypt is making millions in Sinai from tourism. IF Lebanon is half as beautiful as you all describe, you have a gold mine under your hands.

On another issue, I saw on Sky T.V today that HB is paying 12K$ for each Shia in the south. Great way of buying votes. Why do the Lebanese government allows this to happen? If these people needs support it should come from the state not a militia.

Random Ranter said...

Al -

You really need to stop asking for handouts and have the courage to stand up to HB. If they are gone, the Israelis will leave you alone. Why do you think otherwise?

nip said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Random Ranter said...

I have not heard much about an Israeli plot to wipe Iran or Syria off the map and replace it with Jewish rule. Can someone point me to where I can see these statements?

The palestinians have a beef with Israel and that is about it. Not Iran, not Syria and certainly not HB. Get off Israel and see the world the way it is, not the way Iran wants you to see it.

NassurDinHoga said...

nip
I've commented about this before. This guy is a Lebanese journalist the same way I'm a Giant Sloath.
Check out some posts from yesterday.

GSH - Observer said...

Akiva m;
weak countries like Lebanon are usually "dominated" by others (such as teh USA or Syria...etc)

don't compare Leb. to Britain, i wish we could.

the USA (and Syria before) won't look at us as "equal" partner, but rather they tend to "impose" their policies on us.

as for the peace and stability issue, the 2 points you mentioned looks simple, but are they?

once you go to sign peace with Israel what would be the conditions?
How Israel would look at Lebanon? as an equal partner in peace or not?

The USA policy in the ME is to push the Arabs to sign peace with Israel not as "equal" partners, but rather as "inferiors" to Israel.

Akiva, take a very good look at your peace with Egypt; Do you call this peace?
do you feel welcomed -as an Israely- to go walk in Cairo's streets and sit in their coffee shops?

the reason for this is that the USA pushed Sadat to sign peace with Israel, but it couldn't force the "Egyptians" to do so.
that was not an "equal" peace for the Egyptian population.

NassurDinHoga said...

gsh
I didn't get your point. I realy don't feel so welcome in Cairo (I guess, haven't been there yet); but is it because of some conditions in the signed paper between Begin and Saadat? If any, I think Israel should be the one to rapproach Egypt regarding hard anti-Israeli propoganda spread by the media.
I can't see what kind of a section in the alleged agreement with Lebanon will make things different there.

P.S - What "conditions" do we need to sign peace with Lebanon as an independent country? None I believe. 3 prisoners released and a few squares of stones given back (in our dreams...)? You got it.

Al said...

Random Ranter
since when does the massad, reveals their plans :-)

there is a biblical reference to the land of israel form euphorates (furat) to nile.

jews never publicize, it, but i think the idea is that jews in that state lead and arabs serve. :-)

pretty much like it is with palestinians right now, they clean garbage and build the settlements, even the wall is being built by palestinians.

Ranter, in history, the people of Sidon, closed the city and burnet it so that it is not conqured.

Ranter,,,, stand up to hezballa, a lot of people are hezballa

Raja,
i wish you and i were the decision makers......i am sure we would come to a deal...


NassurDinHoga,
it means when you break a deal that is to the disadvantage of the eyptians, they will never like you... if you were fair, you would have more freedom and more love from their people, now all you get is political tolreance.
Eypt for example is not allowed to have any army in Saini,
:-)

Akiva M said...

GSH,

It's funny you should say that, because I had a blogger comment on my blog that the reason the peace between Israel and Egypt is stable is because it was entered into as a peace between equals.

viva la difference, I guess . . .

"once you go to sign peace with Israel what would be the conditions?"

The conditions I set out above. Do you have a quibble with the conditions?

"How Israel would look at Lebanon? as an equal partner in peace or not?"

As an equal partner in peace. Of course - why would it be otherwise? The only thing the Israelis would ask of Lebanon is that it prevent attacks from Israel from within its territory (or at least try to do so - nobody can prevent all attacks, but there's a difference between trying and failing and not trying at all; it's the reason why a terror attack from jordan would not be greeted the same way as a Hezbollah attack)

Look, I'm not an Israeli, and I can't speak for them. But every Israeli comment I read, from every area of the spectrum, talks about what a shame it is that they had to attack Lebanon because they see the Lebanese society as very much like Israel's, particularly in the last year or two: secular, democratic even with some ethnic tension, fun loving, etc.

Akiva M said...

>>there is a biblical reference to the land of israel form euphorates (furat) to nile.

jews never publicize, it, but i think the idea is that jews in that state lead and arabs serve. :-)<<

um . . . no. Not sure where you get your information about jews (or Israelis, who for the most part are irreligious), but maybe you should look into different sources.

And Egypt is not allowed to have an army in the Sinai for the simple reason that the only need for one there is to attack Israel.

Random Ranter said...

Here is the latest from Michael Totten:

Terror War

Cracked Windshield Kiryat Shmona.jpg

KIRYAT SHMONA, ISRAEL – The Israel/Lebanon war created hundreds of thousands of refugees on each side of the border, but that’s where proportion ends. Israel has a real army and a real air force and can inflict real damage on its enemies. Hezbollah, on the other hand, is only strong enough to terrorize people.

The so-called Party of God can menace, bully, and sabotage Lebanon. (They are especially good at the latter.) Hassan Nasrallah’s “martyrs” can terrorize Israel. But they cannot repel an invading army. They can only harass that army and kill a miniscule percentage of its soldiers and dent it by one tenth of one percent.

After most foreign journalists packed up and left as soon as the bangbang stopped, I drove to Hezbollah’s most targeted city of Kiryat Shmona to do a little post-war analysis of what had just happened. It looks surprisingly intact from a distance, and even up close the damage is less severe than what I thought it would be.

Kiryat Shmona Distance.jpg

I expected to see at least one destroyed house. There may be a destroyed house in there somewhere, but I drove all over and couldn’t find one.

Katyusha rockets are pipsqueakers. They don’t feel like pipsqueakers when they’re flying in your direction. But they are. They can’t be aimed worth a damn, and they’ll only do serious damage if they ignite something else after impact, like the gas tank of a car. They have almost no military value at all unless they are fired in barrages at a reasonably close range. From a distance they can only be counted on to break a few things almost at random in the general direction they’re aimed.

They do break a few things, especially because Hezbollah is clever enough to pack them tight with ball bearings. Kiryat Shmona looks like a city that recently suffered street fights between roving militias with automatic weapons.

Shrapnel Kiryat Shmona Apartment.jpg

Katyusha shrapnel kills people who aren’t wearing body armor, and wounds those who are. No one wants to be hit with this stuff. But if the side of your building is hit, you can call a repair guy and have it taken care of in one day. It might take a few days if the windows are broken. Either way, Katyushas do quite a lot of damage to people and relatively little damage to infrastructure and buildings.

Broken Kiryat Shmona Store Windows.jpg

Shattered Kiryat Shmona Store.jpg

Throwing high-speed ball bearings at random around an urban area is a great way to terrorize people and get them to hide in their shelters or seek refuge somewhere else. You can empty entire cities this way, and that’s exactly what Hezbollah did. No Palestinian terrorist group had ever been able to accomplish so much. But forget trying to use Katyushas against an army, especially against a properly outfitted and trained Western army. While Northern Israel’s civilian population retreated to the south, the military surged forward straight into Lebanon.

I can say from personal experience that Katyushas really do frighten civilians. I drove through Kiryat Shmona several times (fast) while it was under bombardment. But I didn’t dare stick around. The city was Hezbollah’s favorite target even while it has no military value at all. They couldn’t hit anything in particular in there, but the city is large enough and close enough to the border that it’s easy to hit something and scare everyone out.

Caved In Kiryat Shmona Windshield.jpg

You can’t destroy a city this way, but you can make it uninhabitable for a while.

The worst damage I could find was where a Katyusha hit the roof of a car port. A parked van was torched , the kitchen window was blown in by shrapnel, and a portion of the side of the house was damaged. Anyone washing the dishes when that thing hit would have been killed.

Garage Kiryat Shmona.jpg

Garage Roof Kiryat Shmona.jpg

Kiryat Shmona Roof.jpg

There is a lot of talk in the media and the blogosphere about Hezbollah’s targets in Israel. Some insist that Hezbollah does too aim its Katyushas at the Israeli military. The “proof” is that 12 soldiers were killed by a rocket just before I arrived on the border.

Here’s the thing, though. Hezbollah hit a little of everything in Northern Israel: houses, trees, streams, grass, apartments, roads, vineyards, and cows. Thousands of rockets crashed and sprayed shrapnel inside their shooting gallery. The odds that none of the rockets would hit a single IDF soldier were microscopic. Hezbollah couldn’t have achieved zero Israeli military casualties no matter how hard they tried unless they didn’t fire those rockets at all.

I was far safer on military bases, in open fields, and on tiny kibbutzes than in cities during Hezbollah’s terror war. Katyushas are nearly useless against an army but are devastatingly effective as terrorist weapons against civilian population centers even as they cause relatively light damage. Shrapnel may not hurt your apartment building too bad, but it will tear you to pieces if you’re in the way.

Broken Window Kiryat Shmona Apartment.jpg

Rockets rained down on Kiryat Shmona almost constantly. There were no soldiers, no tanks, no artillery cannons, no bases, nothing of military value in that city at all. None of the journalists I met wanted to linger there for very long. But we were all over the army bases because our odds of being hit by a rocket were merely random, the same as if we were out among cows in the farmland. Haifa, which is away from the border, was hit more often than bases that are right next to the border and therefore easier targets.

Shrapnel Kiryat Shmona Storefront.jpg

The odds of being hit in Kiryat Shmona were fantastically higher than the odds of being hit anywhere else. Our lives depended on getting this right. There is no room for ideology or taking sides when you’ll die if you get it wrong.

Car Shrapnet Kiryat Shmona.jpg

If Hezbollah really did the best they could to avoid killing civilians with their inaccurate rockets (as their apologists claim) I would have set up shop in Kiryat Shmona. But the situation was exactly reversed. The exception was the town of Metulla, and the reason for that, presumably, is because it is immediately surrounded on three sides by Lebanon. With that exception in mind, the claim that civilian areas were safer places than military areas is terrorist propaganda.

Shrapnel Kiryat Shmona House.jpg

What happened here doesn’t bode well for the future if Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran want to go another round. And it looks like they do want to rack up another “victory.” It's so easy for Syria and Iran in particular when Lebanon absorbs all the punishment for them.

Missile war may be replacing terrorist war. It's more effective than using hijackers and suicide bombers. Only missile war caused hundreds of thousands of Israelis to flee.

This war was a transition, the testing of a new doctrine. It's a disaster for Israel, but in the end it will be an even bigger disaster for those who think it's a terrific idea.

I don’t know about some of the unhinged Lebanese Hezbollah supporters, but I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near Lebanon if ten Iranian-made Zelzal missiles crash into the sides of Tel Aviv apartments and skyscrapers every hour.

War is coming again, and it’s coming like Christmas. It will not resemble the Middle East wars we are used to.

seeker said...

GSH - Observer,
What do you mean equiality in a peace treaty? It's a factor I never heard of before.

Israeli mindset in that regard is very very simple.
option one: security as indicated by Akiva, for all your requests providing Syria will endorse Sheeba as lebanse (I hope you understand we can't return a land that is not yours).
Option Tzo: Warm peace, In my opinion it's up to you, Commercial Israel will be delighted to do so, and it will benefit both countries.

So I really do not understand this equqlity, can you elaborate?

NassurDinHoga said...

al,
Votre proposition que l'agrement entre Israel et Egypt etait casse de notre cote devrait etre explique.

In general, maybe it's just my primitive Israeli colture, but here in Israel we try to comment on things that were actually said, not to our own illussions. Sometimes we even try to back up our crazy propoganda with some facts. Bien entendu?

GSH - Observer said...

seeker;

true, you can't return to us something that doesn't belong to us to start with (unless Syria confirms and back it up by signing on that at the UN).

equality in peace means that you don't impose peace under conditions that are not fully endorsed by both parties.

both parties need to feel that they "gained" from that peace, their rights and dignities were preserved.
let me give you a hypothetical senario, an example:
suppose we proved that Shebaa is Lebanese, but for some reason the only condition for Israel to sign peace is to keep the farms.
in this senario Israel won;t be treating Leb as equal partner in peace, on the contrary, it will be treating lebanon as an inferior partner just for the fact that it will only sign for peace if Leb let go a peice of his land.


if the people of these countries don't feel "satisfied" with the term of the peace it will be worthless.

seeker, to me, their is a huge difference between a cease fire (or truce) and a peace.
peace means much more then just stop shooting each other.
if the idea of peace is not integrated in our minds peace itself will mean nothing. If the peole don't embrace this peace it will be easy for them to give it up or trade it for something they care for more.

I hope i wable to deliver my thoughts clearly to you.

z said...

Heavy Israeli overflights reported in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley






Israeli drones and warplanes were crisscrossing the skies above Lebanon's eastern Bekaa Valley on Friday night, near the Hizbullah stronghold of Baalbek, security officials said.



The officials had not reported any bomb or missile strikes although the Voice of Lebanon radio said the aircraft had opened fire. (AP)

can someone check it WTF

seeker said...

GSH - Observer,

Perfectly clear, thank you.
IMHO I do not see any reason for the Israeli public to reject Lebanse requests so far (Quntar may be but I seriously doubt it will become an obstacle to peace), If you were Syria that is a different story, there equality may play a role.

Admit it, The lebanses requests are so skim that I am horrified at the consequences of what just happend.

I agree with you with the concept of peace, I am extremly disapointed with the egyptian peace myself, I also find intresting the reason you see Israel resposible for that situation (Can you please also explain). Israelis have a warm place in there heart for Sinay and every year Millions of Israeli tourist dollars are spend there, I have a dream to see some pyramids but so far I am admit I can be satified with the knowledge that I can walk the egyptian boarder without the risk of being shot.

NassurDinHoga said...

gsh,
Sorry, not clear yet. Put "feelings" aside, and let me say it loud and clear. Trust me I'm talking in the name of the VAST magority in Israel here:

There are NO conditions for peace from the Israeli side, beside things which are so obvious I'm ashamed to write it, but here it comes anyway:

1. A serious attempt by Lebanon to prevent attacks on northern Israel. Note that attacks from Jordan were not treated as "a declaration of war". This is the model.

2. Israeli prisoners returned. Information about missing soldiers from past wars should be made available if exists.

3. Water issues should be agreed on.

C'est tout.

Don Cox said...

"weak countries like Lebanon are usually "dominated" by others (such as teh USA or Syria...etc)don't compare Leb. to Britain"____A good European comparison is Belgium, which got walked over in WWI and WWII.

seeker said...

Don Cox
And is the capital of Europe

NassurDinHoga said...

Z
Reported in Israeli media as well - no bombings, only some anti-aircrafts fire from land (I'm quoting).
Not something to make a fass about.

ColdPhusion said...

NassurDinHoga said...

3. Water issues should be agreed on.


NassurDinHoga, what water issues?

care to clarify please,

shittyzionz said...

I agree with all what you said Al, way to go bro!

Natalie

NassurDinHoga said...

coldphusion, avec plaisir.

Water of Wazani (Lebanon), flowing into the Hazbani (Israel) AKA "Snir" (I don't know where you're from :-)), one of three sources of Jordan "river" (an internal Israeli joke here).

This issue is currently under acertain status-quo. It's a mild issue (3.5 millions cube a year), but within an official paper Israel will have to inssist on "respect to international law" (which is very vague with respect to water resources anyhow), since this is a crucial principal: With Syria gets Golan back and some withdrawl in the west bank, Israel will have MOST of its water resources controled by former enemies.

Again, this is not something unsolvable. Lebanon has a strong and stable water economy (with a positive balance). It can even be a first shared Lebanese-Israeli project.

Ami Grossman said...

Al,

You can relax...

Very few Israeli dream about about that promised country from euphorates to nile. Probaly less than 100 people out of couple of millions.

Ami

Dimitry said...

gsh

A bit used to non-sovereignity, are you? If you don't like the conditions of the treaty, don't sign it. It's not like Israel would threaten to bomb you to oblivion for simply not signing peace treaty.

A sovereign government has the right to decide whether a certain agreement serves Lebanese interests or opposes them. If Lebanon decided to cede Shabaa farms in exchange for peace and massive American aid, it doesn't mean that the peace wasn't equal. If your nation won't be pleased by a treaty signed by the governemnt and racified by the parliament, try to force a referendum.

Whether you think that peace treaty in which Lebanon won't recieve absolutely everything it wants is unequal, or you think that a peace treaty Lebanon doesn't want would be forced on it by Israel and the US... I'm afraid you're wrong.

ME said...

Nip,

We are happy for you if the money makes a proud keep it to your self and that’s why in this war they went so angry is that mean they were under big pressers and they got the chance to blow up and release that pressers and that’s why MOUBARAK in the beginning of the war said we can’t we are not getting involved the economic so bad we can’t afforded it.
HEZ don’t need to buy love all honest Lebanese in all religion love him now because they know now who is the real enemy it is a shame every body helping people is no good but if they kill us then they are good…

Random ranter,

What was the reason before HEZ , the Palestinian but in 1982 their power gone why Israel didn’t leave Lebanon completely give the prisoners and we were in the middle of the civil war so there is no time or reason for us to have resistance that make sense!!!

Al said...

Nathalie,

at your service, just blog me any time :-)

NassurDinHoga......

Love your french, I speak french if thats your question :-).. And German too for you pleasure. any how, israel in the last 3 years has killed several egyptian army persons 'by mistake'


Amy Grossman,
I am hoping that the 100 people over the 2 million which are actually 4 millions israelis are not the prime minister, the minister of defence and the high clergy dont believe that.

if you dont mind , can you please remind me what the two blue lines of water in the israeli flag mean. :-) My guess would tell me that they are the two rivers.

Hasbani water and there is another water, israel would wage wars for those, they have in the past.
Lebanon destroyed the israeli pipes pumping water to israel in 2000 after the israeli withdrawal. Israel was pumping water to our southern borders.

I also would like for some one to explain to me why are you the chosen people, and what does that mean to the world, do we have to pay taxes for them ;-)

NassurDinHoga......
I am your official correspondant to day, whats does your name mean ?

I would like to remind you about the zionest, israeli and jewish propaganda, cos they are 3 different types. I am sure you know.
Zionest-NeoAnglican propaganda has defined new keywords that adhere to, for example,

Israel killed 3 hamas people in Jordan, using canadian passports, that is called self defence.
Israel killed 2 palestinians in lebanon 3 months ago, and Abbas Mousawi 10 years ago, this is called bringing to justice
Kassam rockets kill israeli soldiers, I am nat saying people, i am saying occupying soldiers is considered an act of terrorism :-) How ironic.

You want one more, as a matter of fact Israel used the word "Mokhareb" which means some one who ruins to describe anti-israeli resistance, and when they asked you to switch around, and before they knocked you in the back with their gun, they said , turn around sadik 'friend'

seeker said...

Al,
sais I am hoping that the 100 people over the 2 million which are actually 4 millions israelis are not the prime minister, the minister of defence and the high clergy dont believe that.
You really don't have much expireince with Democracies huh?
First of all I reckon the number subitted is roughly right they should be several nuts among us no more and if they happen to stray from the agenda that they were elected for, they are in for a very painful experience..., I saw your previous comments thinking that now it is an internal struggle, let me remind you of sabra and shatila, after which 1/3 of Jewish country population stood up on its legs and demonstrated demanding of answers and justice.
If by any chances a PM will wage war on Lebanon for this land (A a cause pursued by so skim an electoral) s/he is up to some very difficult years a head.

About the flag
flag of the State of Israel is intended to portray a Star of David on a tallit, the traditional Jewish prayer shawl.
nothing to do with land nor geographical orientation

Lebnese Liona said...

RAJA AND ALL,

Are you gurs nuts!!! BAll in HB COURT? IDF commandos landed yest evening in baalbeck and were after HB leadership!!!


How about they give you their guns and you proceed to blow their brains out!!!!


Give me a fuckin break people!!!

Isreal should know when its defeated!!!

THANK U THNAK U ISREAL!!!

Because of you HB will never ever disarm.

You idiots!!! If HB was thinking of disarming, this failed commandos operation last night should convinced them not to ever do it!!!

You know I truly believed in peace but now I truly believe you can t have peace with people that cant be trusted!!! and have no respect for cease fires!!!

ME said...

Random Ranter,

As you said HEZ hit a little of everything in Northern Israel: houses, trees, streams, grass, vineyards….
That’s the prove why HEZ didn’t fire a lot of his power to spare the civilian life there is more and much powerful than you can imagine they only threw about 4000 of the small one just to presser you leader to stop killing the children and step on the ground and fight the men and the whole world knows what happen to you in the ground but Israel hit Lebanon in 150.000 bomb all kind 30% of these bomb was a cave buster a 500 ton bomb put buildings down full of civilian most of them children you going to tell me to kill HEZ and destroy them launchers I don’t think there is no launchers in the suburb of Beirut and I don’t think HEZ fighter they were standing on these building and waving to the war planes hay hello we are here put the building down if you think about it HEZ spare your lives but your leaders they didn’t you don’t believe it is easy your leader were busy destroying Lebanon killing the children instead they chase the rocket launcher and destroy them then you will not get hit any more in Israel if they destroyed it make sense and that’s why you were getting hit to the last minute because their were busy killing our children..
They hit lots of army target like the northern command and etc…

Dimitry said...

LL

Since HA didn't think of disarming, and already said as much for pete's sake, I don't think Israel lost much, did it?


me

Yup, no doubt, HA should be declared the humanitarian organization of the year.

Man, where do you live, exactly? And what do you grow in your back yard? HA concentrated its fire on civilian population centers. Often it missed, but it was all aimed toward civilians. Hardly any military targets were hit.

Al said...

liona..ranter..seeker...
the sad thing is that these israelis think that we are inferior, i mean ranter and and seeker think that we dont know what democracies, are....

of course we do, domocracies are countries that let the average joe do and say whatever they want,but they control the major decisions by under cover police, they twist public oppenion by propanda or stunts like foiled attacks.

The word democracy no longer means what it was originally intended for... more than 60% or americans didnt want to go war in iraq, quess what americans did go to war, a few scares and sensatized media and oups the world is great.

90% of canadians didnt want to go to war, but because they were forced by the US, they went to war, similar case to germany, etc...

reports say now that 90% of israelis support a ground invasion of lebanon, how come the israeli army withdrew, did they loose, or was it a tactical dicision.

eyal said...

Liona,

"THANK U THNAK U ISREAL!!!

Because of you HB will never ever disarm.
"
Are you for real? you had 6 years to follow UN resolution 1559, 6 YEARS and what did you do? nothing !!!
In those years HB where getting missals from Iran and Syria, they where building underground tunnels and bunkers, they where kidnapping Israelis IDF soldiers, they where shutting over Israel territory when we never provoked them, they where sending forces into Israel territories to try and kiddnap some more IDF soldiers.
6 YEARS !!!! and you didn't do nothing.
So when Israel decided that enough is enough you are blaming us????
go and learn what happened at the past 6 years before thanking Israel on stuff that the only one to blame is YOU who didnt do a thing to avoid this bad times we are having here

Lebnese Liona said...

eyal,

Its called democracy, let the people and the goverment of labanon decide their own fate!!!!

If they want to disarm HB they will.

Obviously you guys have not learned a damn thing about the use of force and the fact the more forcefull you are with a nation the more defiant they will be.

FOR GODS SAKES LETS US BE, WE DONT NEED U R HELP!!!

Now I support HB not disarming, and believe me most moderate sunnis and christians do.

The more you guys try to correct your mistakes the bigger hole you dig for yourselves.

Keep it up!!!! IDF!!! Great job you fools!!!

eyal said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
eyal said...

Liona,
Democracy is one nation one army not one nation and 2 armies...
when we where not doing nothing at the past 6 years we counted deeds on our end not from the Lebanon army, from HB.
HB is doing whatever they want in Lebanon, In a real democracy before going to an attack (like HB did on Jun 12) the democratic gov. should decied it not a militias who do whatever they feel like to make their big papa and mama happy(Iran and Syria).
Is getting orders from Iran and Syria is the real democracy of Lebanon?
I think that you should first truly understand what democracy is before lie to yourself that you have it in Lebanon.
one question - If your democratic gov. accepted that HB should be disarm after UN resolution 1701 why you do not go with it? or maybe you are used to lie to the world like you did with resolution 1559.
The feeling we get from the Lebanese is: yes yes we are democracy, we will follow the UN decisions and then you let anyone do whatever they want.
Is this a real democracy? is this a real country? is this a real gov?

eyal said...

FOR GODS SAKES LETS US BE, WE DONT NEED U R HELP!!!

We want to let you be, we do not want to help you.
But we have a request too: tell HB to let us be as well and then we will let you be too

Al said...

eyal,.... our new Guiys,org assignee, did youget an e-mail to come and change lebanese oppenion.. :-)


Are you for real? you had 6 years to follow UN resolution 1559, 6 YEARS and what did you do? nothing !!!
In

UN resultion 425 and 223 have not been implemented for 34 years :-)

Israel just violated the 1701, :-) today, In deed thank you israel, hehe,

Eyal,,... How come the massad raises its own funding :-) does that mean they are a governemnt within governemnt. You say the follow direct orders from the president.

So does HA, they follow direct orders from the president......

Dimitry said...

al

So Siniora isn't the head of government and in July 12th Lebanon declared war on Israel?

ME said...

Dimitry,
That’s right they earned it the humanitarian organization of the year just little proof for you Israel hit us in 150.000 bombs lots of them is 500 tons bomb but HEZ hit you in 4000 rockets the biggest one is 600 kilo so if you add the total of the explosion power for each side, it is clear now who is after civilian even now your leaders believe that HEZ have more than 30.000 rockets some of them very power full.
As every body knows your leader order all the reporters from all the worlds to stop gives the places that HEZ rocket hits in other word they tried to hide it as much they can so they don’t make you worry that they are not doing the right things but we don’t need the reporters we got are own eyes, and these some of the military target HEZ hit I will give you the date but not the right time just around that time


July 19 around 15:25 a weapons storage and artillery base in Ain Zibtem.

July 20 around 14:50 shelling the northern military headquarter in Safad.

July 28 around 17:40 hit military base by rockets on Afula.

August 2:
around12:45 Ain Hammour military bases got hit.
Around 21:20 Zareet military base, Israeli military headquarters for northern Israel and Ami Aad military base got hit.

August 3 around 7:20 hit Israeli base in Margolit barracks in Honin.

August around 17:45 the northern Galilee military command.

August 7 around 13:10 Army Northern Command headquarters in Safad and Ilbon base they were targeted.

These some none civilian targeted is that enough proof for you…

Dimitry said...

me

So you're saying that the side that uses less explosives is necceserily not after civilians, while the side that uses more is necceserily after? That's some interesting logic. Does that mean that when someone straps 10 kilos of explosive - small amount by all counts - and blows up in a cafe, he isn't after civilians?

Israel used more power because it has more power. It used a mere fraction of its strenght - during a month, it could turn every city and town in Lebanon to a reproduction of Dresden. Instead, it even avoided compeltely wiping out the towns in which the fighting took place, something that costed lives of IDF soliders. HA, on the other hand, had somewhat more limited capabilities, and used much larger percent of them. Israel was dropping massive bombs to bust bunkers. HA fired rockets filled with metal balls whose sole porpuse is to kill unarmored civilians - they aren't really good for anything else.

Israel attempted to prevent people from reporting the exact locations of HA hits because the media was the best method for HA to calibrate its shots. This should be obvious to anyone who would bother to think about it for a moment.

And your list shows my point pretty well. Every day there were tens of barrages, 200 plus minus katyushas. Towns that have nothing military in them were hits multiple times almost every day. So yes, total of 10, 20 hits at military targets are statistical necceseity.

A friend of mine lives in Karmiel. Two houses on his street were hit. His street (a single street!) recieved pretty much as much attention as any military base. And now you dare telling me they didn't target civilians?

ME said...

Dimitry,

You misunderstand what I ‘m saying what I’m saying is HEZ was able to hit military targets even they have no eyes in the sky they were trying to hit military targets that’s what your army didn’t do they were busy killing civilian and destroying Lebanon instead they chance the rocket launchers to protect you till the last minute HEZ were able to launch rocket on you and you are the one who start killing civilians and destroying Lebanon you are who on July 13 bomb the airport, bridges, building in the suburb of Beirut the children start dying before the adults what do you think we should do set back and cry be in are place what you do like we did trying to stop your aggressions your leader thought we will be afraid but we thank them they charge us a power that’s why we didn’t allow the savage monster again in are country the free world history will write about the savage monsters who defeated by Lebanese resistance and you will be shamed for the rest of your life as a savages!!!!
About the bomb in the coffee shops ,restaurants etc. that because you killing the Palestinian like they are not a human you got no hearts they have nothing to comparing to you and this is the only way to let you feel some them pain….
You should all know there is no peace by killing THE PEACE ONLY COME IN FAIR AND BALACE that’s how you make peace so try it works better!!!!

Dimitry said...

me

First, take a breath and relax. Second, please use the sign . - it'll make your posts quite easier to read.

Look, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. IF they wanted to hit military targets, they could've opened Google Earth or something, find it there, and aim toward them. They didn't. They concentrated their fire at purely civilian population centers, period.

On the other hand, Israel did focus its bombing efforts on HA and infrastracture (and empty areas, but that's beyond the point). If you wish to rant and rave and deny it, enjoy, but those are the clear facts. Israel not always managed to seperate, but it tried. If Israel was targeting only civilians with its bombs, tell me please how come you have several hundreds dead civilian and not hundreds of thousands? Concidering how much explosives Israel dropped?

ME said...

DImitry,

The people ran away to the safest place as the people of northern Israel did, but in big different they had a very risky short long trip, if you followed the war you should know the roads bombed, the bridges down, and some of them got killed on the roads trying to get to safety, but the northern people of Israel it was safe and easy, we are not bragging here about the death of the civilian we discussing how easy to spare them and I’ll prove it for you …
I don’t know how much you know about the new war technology, the very advanced war stuff you got and how easy to track your aims and hit the right target with the right weapon…
This is war logic for you and I know what I’m talking about…
Trust me it is very easy to spare civilian and children life with the hi-tech war plain that able to see a bug on the ground in day or in night and in the military logic the rocket launcher they are on moves they don’t stay in the same place that they lunch them rockets from, it was better to hi-tech plane to chase the rocket launcher and destroy it instead throwing the big bomb on the children this rocket they don’t come from inside the houses an you don’t need a 500 tons bomb to destroy it. all what the rocket launcher it need trust me 155 mm it is enough to put the launcher with the truck in the dumb and what is this logic that if some body from HEZ or any leader lives in one apartment of a building you totally destroy the whole building for that person who is not there because if you are a target you don’t keep your self an easy hit logic.
I hope I got the picture for you about this war. Compare it with the old war you had!!!!!

Dimitry said...

The roads of northern Israel weren't safe at all during the war. Quite a few people died when katyushas his their cars, or near their cars. Safe and easy my sorry behind. Did you really follow this war? Aren't you perhaps confusing northern Israel with North Dakota?

And yes, I have pretty good idea of what modern tech can and can't do. And no, it is pretty impossible to spare civilian lives if the enemy doesn't want them spared. If Israel could've located the launchers so easily, the war would've been over after 3 days. The fact is, it is pretty much impossible to locate a launcher before it fires, and just very difficult after that. It also has a difficulty of penetrating into bunkers, which is why the good ol' method of more explosives is used. When you have intelligence that necceitates bombing a target, the best tech in the world won't be able to stop in midair, scan for innocent civilians, and focus its explosion on the combatants.

Btw, you aren't seriously saying 500 tons bombs, right? You're aware that you can't really mount that on a warplane? The capacity isn't going much beyond few tons. The single largest strike I can recall was 23 tons, and that was a whoel squadron working.


And, of course, you didn't answer me. That wasn't a rhetorical question, you know: you say Israel dropped 150,000 bombs, let's assume in average worth 100 kilos of TNT. That means total was 15 kilotons. The bomb that destroyed Hiroshima was too 15 kilotons. The total weight of explsoives dropped on the bombing of Dresden was about 4,000, per Wikipedia. Let's assume they're three times as potent as TNT, that brings us to 12 kilotons - still less. In both cases, tens of thousands (verging on the hundreds of thousands) died, cities almost totally destroyed. Please explain how come Lebanon's casualties were around the 1000, and the bulk of all Lebanese towns and cities is still standing. Or rather, please explain how it combines with your claim that Israel targeted only civilians. With the 15 kiltons of explosives.

ME said...

Dimitry,

I never heard any body in northern Israel die in the cars when trying to flee you got road we got I don’t know what to call it, again I’m not here to praise the civilian dead ,I’m trying to talk about the capability and the ability to spare the civilian lives
.
It was 5 tons….

About Hiroshima atomic bomb .The strong wind generated by the bomb destroyed most of the houses and buildings within a 1.5 miles radius. When the wind reached the mountains, it was reflected and again hit the people in the city center. The wind generated by Little Boy caused the most serious damage to the city and people. So if you add the 150.000 bombs and they did the more damage than Hiroshima that because they used 5 tons, 500 kilo...etc.
Lebanon is little bit more than 4000 miles sq.we got more damage than Hiroshima because the mass was more than the little boy.
The problem in Hiroshima it was the radiation that generated by the bomb caused long-term problems to those affected. Many people died within the first few months and many more in subsequent years because of radiation exposure. But we find more find moor did under the rubbles.
I just want to thank you because the world will be witness in this modern life we got hit as more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki together.
Thank you to all free world who allowed.

Dimitry said...

me,

I suspect you also didn't hear about the Lebanese woman who was wounded during the fighting (don't recall exactly from what), and was evacuated to a treatement in an Israeli hospital. The evacuation took some 8 hours because HA activists tried to prevent the woman and her son from going, and afterwards they refused to give identification for fear of retribution from HA. For recieving medial treatements.
I suspect you didn't hear about quite a lot of things.

And again I'm repeating, tech doesn't mean you can avoid civilian casualties when fighting in areas with civilians. It isn't magic. You have a target, you shoot.


I'm willing to grant you the shockwave from Little Boy being responsible for most of the deathes (I'm not talking about radiation exposure, that's totally different opera), but the explosion itself killed at least 10,000 people. And you didn't say anything about Dresden.
Fact is, even if your figured are correct - nay, particularly if your figurs are correct - one is forces do conclude that Israel attemted to avoid civilian casualties. Several hundreds dead, and damage which is rather light (Serbia would've changed places with you in a heartbeat) - and that with firepower that could kill tens of thousands and level entire towns, without much effort.

Your claim that IDF targeted civilians doesn't wash. The numbers refute it (unless you claim IAF pilots are incedibly inept, and can't hit a bunch of easy targets, that have no AA cover, with some much explosive at their disposal. Nope, if that was true, not a single bridge would've been destroyed - they would've failed to hit them).

ME said...

Dimitry,

In the last part i didn’t got the idea and exactly what you mean.

Dimitry said...

You say Israel targeted specifically civilians. You say Israel dropped more bombs on Lebanon than were dropped during the Dresden bombing. Yet, there are sveral hundreds civilian dead, and relativly marginal damage.

Unless you also claim IDF pilots and artillery can't hit the side of a barn, and even though they aimed at civilians they mostly missed, I don't see how this fits together.