Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Italian Foreign Minister: Hizballah Must Disarm

The Italian Foreign Minister, Massimo D'Alema, penned an op-ed piece for the Wall Street Journal today. In it, the optimistic (almost giddy) D'Alema, tied Europe's commitment to Lebanon to a solution for the entire region.
Passing the difficult Lebanon test means creating a win-win situation for the Lebanese, the Israelis and the region as a whole. Realizing what is at stake, Italy is seriously committed to its solution -- with humanitarian assistance as well as with a generous offer of troops (3,000) for the new Unifil mission.
D'Alema then lists three conditions that are needed to pass "the Lebanese test".
First, of course, the Lebanese army and the international peacekeeping force, working together in a consistent and sustainable way, must be able to guarantee Lebanon's full sovereignty over its territory. [And just in case some might find some vagueness in that point, he goes on to say that] Hezballah will have to disband... .

The second related step, thus, will be making sure that Israel achieves enhanced security through political agreements with its neighbors... .

Thirdly, Hezbollah will have to evolve into a purely political and nonviolent movement... . Hassan Nasrallah's recent self-criticism about the consequences of the war demonstrates the limits of a strategy based on violence.
With regards to Syria, Mr. D'Alema wrote,
Syria, in particular must choose between being a cooperative stakeholder (by complying with Resolution 1701) or self-isolation.
He then goes on to elaborate on what he sees as Europe's new role in the region,
By offering 7,000 troops to the enhanced Unifil mission, Europe has spelled out its commitment. For the first time Europe takes full responsibility for a security role in the Middle East. After having long been a "payer" of economic assistance, the EU shows willingness to become a "player... ."

The implementation of Resolution 1701 will be a crucial test for all of us. If we succeed, this will create new momentum for seriously addressing the 60-year-old Palestinian issue -- the sooner the better, for all parties involved.
As I read through the piece I thought about Nasrallah's interview yesterday and how he said that he had no problem with the Unifil contingent so long as it did not try to disarm him. I also could not help but imagine a European base or military convoy obliterated by a suicide bomber - similar in magnitude to that which transpired in 1982.

What really matters now is how the presence of these troops will impact the Lebanese political scene, because ultimately the key to passing "the Lebanese test" (as Mr. D'Alema puts it) lies in that particular playground. Will the Europeans give March 14 the teeth that the Army could never offer them? Or will they just sit there and be forgotten? Time will tell.

46 comments:

Solomon2 said...

What really matters now is how the presence of these troops will impact the Lebanese political scene

How might Lebanese react to terrorist attacks against the peacekeepers, as in 1983?

abou al jamejem said...

Neseralla is shifting the responsability of Lebanon's destruction away from him. Huzeballa and their supporters have just started feeling the heat, after the majority of the population( especially, Druz, Sunni and Christians) felt that they got thrown into a war that they didn't want.
for more Info. check out this blog: http://lebanonisfirst.blogspot.com/

Bad Vilbel said...

Raja,

I'm afraid Mr. D'Alema is being overly optimistic and choosing to view things through an overly simplistic lens.

If everyone was indeed well-intentioned, then yes, Mr. D'Alema's "Lebanon test" could lead the way to a more comprehensive peace. But the main flaw in his discourse is his lack of discussing the Syria/Iran angle.

Where he says that Syria has to either abide by 1701 or be isolated, he doesn't seem to realize that should Syria choose "isolation", it can very easily act as a destablizing force and torpedo the whole "Lebanon Test" with one suicide bombing (as you mention).

This plan is precarious as it is. What it needs is to be made full-proof against inevitable attempts at sabotaging it, rather than relying on the goodwill of all parties to implement it. That is something the Europeans have failed at understanding time and time again. Mr. D'Alema is no exception.

hummbumm said...

I think there would be anger, but i think Hizbullah would be smart enough or syria or whoever to use some never head sunni extremist group with inspiration from Al qaeda to cover their footprints, to provide plausible deniability.

D.B. Shobrawy said...

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Bad Vilbel said...

Hummbumm,

Sure, they'd use some unheard of extremist group name...The end result would be the same though: The tenuous cease-fire and the process around it would be torpedoed and sunk.

shittyzionz said...

Why are you so pessimesstic (spelling) Raja? it'll be alright my friend, trust me on this! first of all, the Israeli seige must end, they are violating 1701 and no one gives a damn!! anyways, I just want to ask you Raja & other Lebanese here ( Israelis & their pro, please spare me from your replies!) what should Sayed Nassrallah do so you'd believe that he's doing what hes doing for us? he sacrificed his son for Christ sake & the other one is a fighter in HA, he gave up his dream of finishing his education, he & his men faught the worst wars so we can all live in free & full of pride, he never killed a fellow Lebanese even during the civil war (Junblat on the other hand massacred Chritians with the Syrians)what should he do so he can gain your trust & respect?

Natalie

Bad Vilbel said...

Natalie,

I am Lebanese. And I am pro-Lebanon, not pro-Israeli.
I don't really know what world you're living in.
You seriously believe abducting soldiers in another country is in the interests of Lebanon? If so explain how.
You seriously think we were living "free and full of pride" before 7/12? If so, explain how.
Nasrallah sacrificed his son? So did countless other Lebanese who lost loved ones between 1975 and 1990, and in 1996, and last month. What gives Nasrallah the right to fight wars on behalf of the Lebanese? Is he the President? Is he the Prime Minister? Do we live in Hezbollahstan? or in Lebanon?
I'm not sure what country you live in, and in what fantasy world it exists, but it sure isn't the Lebanon that i know.

Either you're a 12 year old with very little grasp on the reality of Lebanese politics, and history, or you're just trolling.

(Sorry for the rant, everyone else)

Dimitry said...

Interviews are easy. Those European soliders aren't going to gladly sacrifise their lives for neither Israel nor Lebanon. They might assist, but they sure as hell ain't gonna spearhead anything. Not one to rely on but yourself.

Tarek said...

So, it's the Italian prime minister who decides for Lebanon now !?

shittyzionz said...

Bad vilbel

Well well well, you started your reply by showing your concerns about the abducted Israeli soldiers, which made me raise my eyebrows really.
To answer your questions,1) when we & Israel exchange our prisoners with theirs, you will see. That war was planned long time before July 12th and

was supposed to start by the end of September ( according to New York Times & Washington Post + HA experience with the Israelis)
2) To a certain degree, yes, we were!! The Israeli occupation ended in 2000, we were still a new born country.
3) The majority of people who lost their loved ones are actually SUPPORTING HA!! And then again,in 1975 HA were not formed yet! How could you be so ignorant to that fact, you really make me wonder! Anyhow, I repeat, this war was due to be launched later this year, HA just killed the "element of surprise". Israel targeted our civilians, schools, ambulances, power & gas stations and you just come & blame HA for this war, oh yes, you are so Lebanese!
4 ) I came from the proud & free Lebanon, baddy yek te3terf enno enta malnak lebnani o ennak bet7b tshoof baldna me7tel o zaleel!!
I'm 20 yo, how old are you? I bet you are only7 or 8!! However, my love & devotions to my country is something you will never understand coz you actually don’t love our cedar!! You are used to live to wipe Israelis & Americans asses, I'm not! I just want my country to live with freedom, dignity & pride.


Tarek,
LOL whenever the Italians win the WC, Israel invade our country, & when they lost the final of Euro 2000, we kicked the Israelis out LOL The Italians are the last people to act on our behalf!!
joking only, I love Italy,its people ( esp their lads yummm)
Natalie

Solomon2 said...

Nonsense! If Israel invades Lebanon, that must mean Italy just won the World Cup! Any other form of thinking is delusion! :)

Solomon2 said...

I've read 1701 carefully and Israel is not defying it. Even Annan acknowledges that the resolution does NOT call for Israel to end its "blockade", for Annan only refers to it as Lebanon's "humiliation".

Well he should. Lebanon has a lot to be humiliated about and I'm not convinced that hiding this issue helps.

Sherri said...

Italian officials can make whatever statements they desire. However, according to statements of Koffi Annan and all news reports I have heard and read, the United Nations forces are not going to be involved with forcibly disarming Hezbullah or policing the Lebanon Syria border. Those matters are for Lebanon to deal with internally, unless the Lebanese government specifically requests such assistance from the United Nations forces.

abou al jamejem,

What I have read is exacly opposite what you state. I have read that the majority of Lebanese support Hezbullah. This is true, despite the fact that the obvious intent of Israel in attacks on civilians and infrastructure was to turn the people against Hezbullah. Israel's acts did exactly the opposite, it increased Hezbullah's support.

People are not stupid. They know that when Israel tries to kill them, they should hate Israel, not the group risking their lives to defend the country from Israeli aggression.

Lebanon needs Hezbullah and Hezbullah needs Lebanon. It's obvious Lebanon needs the skills of Hezbullah and the love for the country of Lebanon that Hezbullah and Hassan Nasarallah has, and the ability Hezbullah has to rally the people and to give the people some sense of justice and pride, that they need so badly. They(the Lebanese government and Hezbullah) just need to find a way to work together, and I think there is ongoing dialogue going on between the parties right now on this.

shittyzionz,

I think Nasarallah is demonstrating he cares about Lebanon. He stated in the last interview he would not have ordered the soldiers kidnapped if he had anticipated or known, even a 1% chance, it would have resulted in this war. There had been prior kidnappings by both Hezbullah and Israel, and no reactions like this had occurred.


Hezbullah has kept their word and not broken the cease fire, which is more than can be said by Israel (who has been involved in a number of offensive actions violating the cease fire). Nasarallah again stated Hezbullah's goal, to resist occupation of Lebanon by Israel and defend Lebanon from Israeli aggression.

Chas said...

Raja,
I just want to say really, that I think there are a lot of hopeful signs and I hope and pray that Lebanon may soon enjoy peace and a resumption of its path to full democracy and development.
I believe the majority in Lebanon will support the peacekeeping effort as long as the Lebanese army is seen to be respected.
There will be setbacks and frustrations, but there is real hope.

Peace

Chas

emspeace.blogspot.com

Chris from lebanon said...

I say the clock is ticking the last hours of the Hezbollah we knew before July 12th.

Its influence among the majority of the lebanese people is greatly diminushed. Even some shias are questioning Hezb's goals and aims.

All this is great news for all of us here. Its time that Lebanon recovers its full independance and control over all its territory.

Its hopeful moments now that Syria is out and the internantional community including majority of lebanese are demanding the disarmement of Hezb.

After all, we ask ourselves now a days : Who won this war?...Is it possible that the peace loving people from all sides did?

If so, then this should be the reward giving to us survivors , by all the inncocents who paid dearly with their lives from both sides of the border.

Solomon2 said...

People are not stupid. They know that when Israel tries to kill them, they should hate Israel, not the group risking their lives to defend the country from Israeli aggression.

Consider a locomotive represents the IDF, its railroad is the path of war, a kidnapper is Hezbollah, and a beautiful girl is Lebanon. So when the victim is tied to the railroad tracks, she should hate the train that runs over her, rather than the kidnapper?

chuck said...

shitty lebanese guy\girl,

it amases me how u r filled with so much propaganda, war slogans and blind support which u call "patriotism".
i think u r ready, they sure trained u well.
it's time to take u'r gear and go blow urself up someplace in a bus, u know, FOR THE CAUSE, for the pride of the lebanese people !!
i almost feel sorry for u, for being such a braiwashed person...



sherri,

mon sherri, u sure do manage to put a smile on my face every time i read u'r comments.

"Lebanon needs Hezbullah and Hezbullah needs Lebanon."

well,
what did hisballa give the lebanese poeple ? schools ? comunity centers ? war ?

well, i think that now, with the international aid that lebanon is getting, and with the armed forces that may as well, train lebanese soldiers, i think lebanese people don't really need hisballa anymore, well, not as a fighting militia.
hisballa sure can help lebanon with more schools and more comunity centers, but i think they will have to change their aproach in the way of teaching.

hisballas support for the people of lebanon, schools, comunity centers, etc is more then fine.

being part of the government, well, it's a part of a democratic system.

helping the lebanese army and teaching fighting technics to the army, as a part of the lebanese army, is legitimate.

BUT continue to be a militia, which doesn't aplly to the rules of the lebanese government and goes by it's own rules and iranian orders, this will keep lebanon week and unstable, and will show the weackness of the lebanese politicians.

but hey, well, i think this is a matter that u should leave for the lebanese people to decide.
don't u think ?

Bad Vilbel said...

Shittygirl or whatever your name is...You have proven to be a troll. This will be my last response to you.

Carry on believing whatever you will. Your brand of patriotism is destroying our country, pure and simple. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, and I'm sorry you choose to misread everything i wrote.

1. I didn't "express concern" for the Israeli soldiers. I stated a fact: They were kidnapped, across the border, by a non-governmental organization. As far as I'm concerned, that is a criminal act.

2. I don't know about you, but i wasn't living "free and proud" when I had to stop my car at a checkpoint manned by a SYRIAN guy, with pictures of Hafez or Bashar Assad and a Syrian flag plastered there. You conside that Free and Proud? Are you Syrian? I'm Lebanese.

3. I didn't kiss anyone's ass, Lebanese or American or whoever else. I am proud to be Lebanese. I will be even prouder when the flag flying over every inch of my country is LEBANESE (not Iranian, Hezbollah, Syrian or Israeli).

Thanks for playing.

Sherri said...

solomon2,

Your example assumes the human shield argument Israel has been making is true, that Hezbullah was hiding behind civilians in their attacks and using them as shields. Noone investigating this claim can find support for it. I am referring specifically to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Further, even if true, Israel has a responsibility to not target civilians under international humanitarian law.

One thing I think this conflict demonstrates is how ineffective it is to attack a whole country for actions of a group. (Hezbullah having a membership of 3000 or 4000 or maybe much less). It's like looking for a needle in a haystack, finding and destroying Hezbullah. And the suffering, destruction, and death is being borne by innocent civilians and the government of Lebanon.

Raja said...

Sherri, allow me to interject here, because Ghassan bin Jiddo ran a show on al Jazeera that focused on the aftermath of the war.

During the show, a proud Hizballahi showed him around the South, and pointed to military infrastructure that was left untouched by the Israeli offensive.

And, yes, you guessed it... the Hizballahi took him into a couple of houses that had tunnel entrances in them as well.

Surprized? Well I was, at first. But what do you think Nasrallah means when he says his agenda is to create a "culture of resistance"? You think that's empty talk?

It is for this reason I always think twice before whole-heartedly supporting those absolute moralists who scathe the Israelis for their "atrocities."

We have to admit, as Lebanese, that when the Israelis claim Hizballah hides behind civilians, they have a point! And no, saying so does not mean we are "traitors" because evidence on the ground proves otherwise.

Lirun said...

raja

at the risk of being called a "self-hating israeli"

(which sherri can testify that i am certainly not given my vehement comments protesting israel's point of view)

i must say that on this side of the border - we owe it to ourselves to closely and objectively examin the veracity of claims against us as well..

im not even going near what is justified and what is not.. these are matters that only future outcomes can truly settle..

but as a democratic country with elaborate taxation and a thick claim for moral high ground.. i want it audited.. i want the truth..

i want things explained to me..

must add.. raja.. as i discussed earlier today with (blogger known as) deem.. the ability that you have to look at the other side's persepctive is an asset for mediation and alternative dispute resolution.. certainly praise worthy.. we need to all learn a bit more from you..

wishing peace to us all..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Dimitry said...

sherri

I'm curious as to exactly how AI and HRW investigated those claims. I mean, did they hang around villages and asked people "say, were you used as a human shield?" or better yet "did you use those people as human shields"? Do they have a definte method of discovering, after the fact, who was shooting at whom from where when and who was standing in the way? Because I'm pretty sure they didn't hang around there taking pictures and writing notes when the bullets whistled.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Raja and the rest of the fans,
the comparison to 1982-3 is not exactly one on one. First the political situation in Lebanon is very much dfferent. Lebanon in 1983 was in civil war without any realy government and the Syrians were heavly intrenched in the country. The peace keepers than entered a very unstable situation and were seen as enforcing the will of the chrisitans mainly. Today Lebanon is much more united in its struggle to return to normal. Syria is much weaker and isolated and Hizbullah received a very severe blow to its capabilites and its pride despite all the knock about statments of their supposed victory. Any attempt to harm UNIFIL which is here by the governmnet's request will be seen as attempting to overthrow the legitimate government which has a very wide basis of popular support. in 1983 the peace keepers in Beirut were nt part of UNIFIL. The main obsticle is whether Lebanon will be able to safeguard it's boarder and keep the arms mononpoly in the hands of the Army. It this task is succesful things here will be totaly different.

again I urge you to visit the voice of Lebanon web site - http://www.lebanonsvoices.com/

chuck said...

yesterday iranian foreign minister said that "the international calling for the disarmament of hisballa is interviening with lebanons internal affairs".

i just couldn't stop laughing when i heard that.
i mean, how hipocritical can u be !?
iran's intervention in the lebanese internal affairs during this whole war and before (and probobly after as well) is so obvious and undesputed.

saying what he said on tv was merely insulting the viewr's inteligence...

Bad Vilbel said...

They've been insulting the Lebanese population for over 30 years now, Chuck. And some idiots continue to fall for it, amazingly enough.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so ferakin sad.

Sherri said...

chuck,

Sovereignty, the rights of a country to control its own destiny and make its own decisions, with the input of its residents. The right to not have other countries (the US and Israel)make decsions for it.

Iran is not attacking Lebanon or providing weapons to be used to kill innocent civilians in Lebanon. Those actions are being taken by Israel and the US. I just watched a program on LINK TV called Journal, in which a Law School Professor/activist was interviewed in Lebanon. He walked through the southern Beirut suburbs which were bombed and identified the types of US weapons used. He stated that 98% of the weapons that were used to "carpet bomb" (his term) these Beirut neighborhoods and south Beirut came from the US. US Weapons used by Israel to target civilians and commit war crimes against civilians in Lebanon.

I watched an interview with a member of the Lebanon Parliament, who is pursuing the war crimes issues, working with the Lebanese government and international groups. He mentioned there is one case already going forward in Canada, filed on behalf of the Canadian United Nations Forces officer who was killed by the IDF in southern Lebanon at the United Nations Post that was bombed.

bad vilbel,

Better to be insulted, then bombed and killed.

dimitry,

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are leaders in the field of identifying war crimes and referring cases for further investigations. The investigations are just beginning. Keep in mind that whether or not Hezbullah was using civilians as human shields (and I would not be surprised if there are some cases of this), civilians remain protected and with rights under international law. You can't just say they did a war crime, so now we have the right to do one.

I hope and pray the war crimes cases go forward to prevent this from happening to anyone, anywhere, again. I am referring to the killing of innocent civilians in Lebanon, the killing of innocent children in Lebanon, the terrorizing of civilains in Lebanon, the acts of inhumanity Israel subjected the Lebanese people to. No impunity.

Sherri said...

raja,

I saw some of the television coverage of the tunnels too. But for a moment, look at the issue from the viewpoint of Shiite villagers who live in south Lebanon and have seen their villages destroyed multiple times by Israel in the past. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. There was a vacuum in the south, no protection for the villagers against future Israeli aggression. Hezbullah (members of this organization who also lived in the villages with their families) stepped in and filled that vacuum. They devised ways to protect themselves and the villages and have some ability to resist in future attacks by Israel.

I found myself wondering, during the bombing, who was really fighting against Israel. Do you think it was just Hezbullah fighters or was it all able bodied men in the villages attacked working together to defend themselves against yet another act of Israeli aggression? Remember how it seemed the bombing victims were predominatly women, children, and invalids or elderly people.
Where were all the men?

I think Hezbullah is something more than just a militia or political group. It is a movement, a resistance, a force in itself. Did you see the movie REDS about kids that banded together in the US to fight against foreign invaders? They were just kids and they were greatly outnumbered and had no military eqipment comparable to those who invaded their country. But they loved their country and were willing to fight to the death for their country. The fight that Hezbullah and perhaps other villagers put up
when their homes were attacked was a good fight.

Sherri said...

raja,

One more point I should have made.
The Lebanese government sending troops into the south begins to provide the south with the protection they need. Hopefully, the government can fulfill its obligations to protect and defend the southern villages. Then, there is no vacuum and no need for a private militia like Hezbullah to operate there. If Hezbullah can integrate into the armed forces in some way, the future may be brighter.

chuck said...

sherri,

"Sovereignty, the rights of a country to control its own destiny and make its own decisions, with the input of its residents. The right to not have other countries (the US and Israel)make decsions for it."

u forgot to mention iran and syria in this statment of ur's. that's what i mean when i say u r not objective in u'r posts.
the us and Israel r not the only countries who make decissions for the lebanese. u should go to lebanon and ask people if hisballa is good or bad for them.

and i have a surprise for u, iran does suplly weapons to hisballa. no matter how many time u say it isn't so, well, i guess it's only u'r whishfull thinking or trying to ignor it. otherwise i would say u r trying to be a politician and try to make people think (falsly) that hisballa is good for lebanon.



"The fight that Hezbullah and perhaps other villagers put up
when their homes were attacked was a good fight."

well, when they fight for their home then it is fine by me too and justiffyed.but this is not what happened here. kidnapping and killing soldiers of another country inside the countries own territory is not fighting for u'r life, and not fighting for u'r home !!!!! get that into u'r skull !!
Israel invaded lebanon in order to stop hisballa's action's inside Israel and not let it happened again in the future !
we had enough !! they had no legitimate case for doing such attacks, only to justify their existance in the eyes of those who support Israels distruction and enjoy such acts of killing Israeli soldiers !

u may claim as much as u want that hisballa is the "ressistance of lebanese against the Israeli invasion" or whatever u want to say for the behalf of hisballa,
but the FACT is that hisballa has lost it's legitimacy as a ressistance against ocupation when Israel withdrew from lebanon in 2000.

Israel didn't have to and didn't need to invade lebanon if hisballa wasn't there and wasn't provoking by violant acts inside Israel.

and u may claim that Israel was invading lebanon by air, well, again, Israel didn't need to fly over lebanon if hisballa wasn't there. these flights were covering the hisballa deployment and provided inteligence about it's posts. this was a deffensive act of a state that was afraid of hisballas attacks. u may call it the "resisstance" of Israel against hisballa's deployment, therefor by u'r own standards of a nation that ressists a a force which threatens it's existance, it is a legitimate act.

main point:
NO HISBALLA, NO ISRAELI RESISSTANCE

u may talk about Israels wornfull doings in the war, but this is not what will bring peace eventually.
hisballa's actions against Israel were against human right aswell, i deliberate, and i don't see u attack hisballa. only because of the inacurecy of the missiles and with gods help and protection all the thousands of missiles that landed in Israel have killed only 40 civilians.
why don't u cry out laud for a full investigation against hisballa, such a humanitarian person that u claim to be ??

acusing Israel won't bring peace.
disarming hisballa might.

and i do condemn Israels use of cluster bombs, they say Israel used cluster bombs in the 2 last days of war before the cease fire, this was stupid and unneccecery. i don't know what was the reason for using these bombs but Israel shouldn't use it if it's not a necceccity.
and it dammages Israel and gives people like u, sherri, a reason to attack Israel, and that hurts Israel's name in the world.
really unnececcery.

u'r last post is the only post that i can say in whole heart that i agree with every word.

peace.

Dimitry said...

sherri,

Oooh, they're experts. That explains everything, and supplies an exact answer to my question. I guess that next time someone asks me to prove a mathematical theorem in an exam, I'll just say "the guy who proved it was an expert". Full marks garanteed!

I asked pretty simple question, you know. How, without being there, after the one, could they possibly make worthwhile statements about whether or not human shields were used?


Also, when a civilian is used as a human shield, his death is the clear responsibility (and the crime) of the one using him thusly. Otherwise, you're negating the other side's right to self defence. It is not an abstract context. You cannot say you agree to one's arbitrary right to self defence and then forbid him the actions neccesery for it.


Also, Iran is interfering with Lebanese sovereignity. The very existance of HA means Lebanon isn't really sovereign (Siniora pretty much admitted it after the soliders were kidnapped: "we're not responsible", he said. Well, in a sovereign country, he would've been). Funding and aiding HA is, therefore, a clear action against Lebanon's sovereignity.

Sherri said...

chuck,

I never said Iran does not provide aid or weapons to Hezbullah. But so what? It is not that aid or those weapons that were used to attack civilians and civilian objects within Lebanon. US weapons caused suffering and destruction in Lebanon.

Why is it civilized and humane for Israel or the US to label groups such as Hamas or Hezbullah as terrorists and seek the death and destruction of those individuals, their wives, their children, their brothers, their sisters, their parents, their neighbors, and anyone they associate with? Terrorist means no rights to money or aid, no legal rights afforded to other members of society, no rights to arms to defend themselves and their people from attacks by others, and no right to live. Such humanity being demonstrated. God must so be proud of this superior civilization we are creating. Do you think God is proud of us?

You say Hezbullah lost its rights as a resistance group when Israel withdrew 6 years ago. If this is so, why have there been continuous skirmishes between Hezbullah and Israel over the past 6 years? Why hasn't Israel provided Lebanon with a map of the landmines they left in Lebanon during their last occupation? Whay hasn't there been a treaty between Lebanon and Israel? Why are there still issues of Israel occupying Lebanese land, the Sheeba Farms? Why is Israel still holding Lebanese prisoners?

chuck said...

sherri,

it took u some time to answer !

about iran,
ofcourse the iranian weapons were not ment to hit civilians in lebanon, it was ment to hit civilians in Israel !

what is a terrorist organisation in u'r eyes ? and what consequences do u think it should suffer ? and remember that feathering people (like in using a feather to tickle them) is not an effective solution...).

about the skirmish,

ok,
since Israel withdrew from south lebanon hisballa was the one iniciating attacks on Israel.
we thought, more like hoped, that whithdrawing will make hisballa irelevant and in a few years lebanon will disarm hisballa, or at least find better use for it's people then to fight Israel.

instead, hisballa started to evolve and to search for other ways to attack Israel, which it found in helping the palestinians with their fight. today there r many hisballa fighters inside the palestinian territories who train the palestinians.

hisballa tried to make itself relevant in any way it could. most attacks by hisballa on the north border came at times when the conflict with the palestinians was more active, claiming it support in the palestinian struggle (no lebanese issue involved), but the news always said that hisballa is merely trying to provoke Israel, and "to create a seconed front",and the government decided to let it pass quietly and ignor these attacks.

3 or 4 months ago hisballa fired rockets into Israeli towns and Israel responded by air striking a few hisballa targets.

the day that the 2 soldiers were kidnaped and the others were killed, followed the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit in gaza.
after the kidnapping of Shalit Israel was in a delicate state already, trying to get Shalit back.
hisballas attack was just hitting an already sour spot.
then the government had this dilema wether to retaliate or to negotiate with hisballa too. by negotiating with hisballa the messege of Israel would have been that this was legitimate,
that this is something Israel could live with.
it would'v only provoked more kidnappings in the future.
so Israel couldn't just sit back.
when the negotiations with the lebanese government and international comunity didn't seem to show any will or way of finding the kidnapped soldiers or pressure hisballa, then Israel went into lebanon.

shabaa farms is not recognised by any law as a land belonging to lebanon.
international law says that Israels withdrawl from lebanon in 2000 settles all the land issues concerning Israel and lebanon.
therfore, the claim of hisballa for the shabaa farms is unjustified.
therefore hisballa is IRELEVANT!

there was a treaty between Israel and lebanon. it was the 1559 resolution. for some reason it wasn't implemented...if it had been implemented then this whole mess wouldn't have happened.

the lebanese prisoners r (for the last time) murderrers.
samir kuntar himself killed a whole familly. so i guess they desserve to be in Israeli jail.
and, again, if the lebanese want to release lebanese prisoners they have a government that could negotiate with Israel. maybe these prisoners could be released in a peace settelment between Israel and lebanon.
we don't need hisballa for that.
therefore, hisballa is
IRELEVANT !!!



i see u didn't address any of the othe issues that i mentioned in my last post. i hope it's because i made a good point that u understood.

Sherri said...

chuck,

Hezbullah is relevant as long as they remain politically a part of the Lebanese government (relevant as a political party representing the Shiite population, the largest group in Lebanon which makes up 40% to 45% of the population).

As a military force, they remain relevant as long as the Lebanese government is unable to adequately protect the south alone and as long as they are allowed to act as a military force by the Lebanese government.(this comment speaks to the future). I recently learned that there was a Memorandum Of Understanding in effect that sets forth an agreement among Hezbullah and the Lebanese government as to rights Hezbullah had in the south at the time this conflict started. I do not know if that document has been made public or what it says.

Hezbullah was relevant as a military force in south Lebanon for the past 6 years, because they operated as a military force there. There was no Lebanese army present to serve and protect the population in the south.

What is a terrorist organization?
I just reread your comments. You said what is a terrorist organization and how should they be punished. This proves my point about the dangers in using these labels.

The US and Israel have become engaged in this evil practice of labelling persons or groups as terrorists and seeking to destroy anyone so named. I refuse to be a part of this. It is inhumane. Every person in this world is a human being and has a right to live. Placing a label on them that dehumanizes them and is used as an excuse to take their lives or their properties is just wrong.

I do not think that the term terrorist is helpful or useful, and I believe noone deserves to be labelled in that fashion.

If you were to view the term as a person, group, or state who targets civilians then the US, Israel, and Hezbullah would all be terrorists. The terrorist act that took the most lives ever was the bombing of Hiroshima by the US in World War II. The nuclear bomb's target was a civilian city of 350,000 and 100,000 people died instantly or soon after. Every year since then (for the past 60 years), thousands more die from radiation related causes. The number of dead is now close to 250,000 human beings.

Israel targeted civilians in this conflict, by airbombing civilian areas. Hezbullah targeted civilians, by its missiles aimed at civilian areas in Israel.

How should terrorist acts be dealt with? If they occur as a part of a conflict between two countries, they may be war crimes. They can be dealt with by international humanitarian law.

If illegal acts are undertaken by nonresidents of one country who enter into another country to perform those acts, the country effected should use diplomatic means to bring the lawbreakers to justice. This practice of starting wars wherever people we label as terrorists reside (which the US started by its invasion of Afghanistan)should stop. Entire countries and their civilian populations should not be punished for the acts of groups of individuals. It is inhumane and counterproductive.

And just because I do not address every point you make does not mean I agree with those points.

I believe you and your government, Israel, hate and fear Hassan Nasrallah and Hezbullah and Shiite Muslims and desire they cease to exist. I don't hate or fear them. I don't view them as a threat to myself or my world. And I hope and pray that I never do. I view them as fellow human beings, made in the image of God, who God loves and tells me to love.

chuck said...

sherri,

we do not, DO NOT hate shiites population !! and we sure as hell don't wish for the shiites to cease to exist !!
what makes u claim such a thing !?!?
i don't even know shiites besides hassan nasralla, so why should i hate shiites ?? i hate hisballa becuase they terrorise my country !! terrorise as in iflict unecceccery pain, kill jews for their enjoyment, encite people to kill jews and believe in a total distruction of my country ! so i'm sorry but i can't love hisballa for that.

and now, What is a terrorist organization?

u didn't answer this question so i will quate my dictionary for u:

"terror - bullying, putting fear on other people, by progressing violent acts.
terrorism - a regiem of terror, of violence.
terrorist - a bully, an agrresor, a man who tryes to implement his ideas, wishes and goals by progressing hostility, murder of his oponent and other ways of violance."

u said "How should terrorist acts be dealt with? If they occur as a part of a conflict between two countries, they may be war crimes. They can be dealt with by international humanitarian law."

but international humanitarian law has been operating for a long time, and there was no progress. international resolutions r never being implemented in full.
Israel alomost everytime followed international resolutions, maybe not at full, but at least made the first step, but it was always the other side who decided to totaly ignor such resolution. i'm talking both palestinians and lebanon, and hisballa.

Dimitry said...

If illegal acts are undertaken by nonresidents of one country who enter into another country to perform those acts, the country effected should use diplomatic means to bring the lawbreakers to justice.

I'm sorry, but no. The country so effected should not have to use any diplomatic means, the country responsible should do so out of its own will. The only diplomatic mean that isn't effectively placing the most basic rights of the citizens of the effected country as bargaining chips is the ultimatum, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't what you intended.

And beside, be frank for a moment. Do you really think that Lebanon would've surrendered the Hizballons who carried out the July 12th, and those that ordered and organized the attack, to Israel? Or even arrested them and placed them in Lebanese prisons?

Sherri said...

dimitry,

You are assuming that Hezbullah's acts were terrorist acts, which has not been established to be a fact. Hezbullah (a political party within the Lebanese government)operated as a military force in south Lebanon, with the knowledge of the Lebanese government and to protect the Shiite populations of which they are a part of. There was even at least one written document that set forth the rights of Hezbullah, referred to as a Memorandum Of Understanding.

There have been ongoing hostilities between Hezbullah and Israel in the south throughout the past 6 years. These include constant invasions of airspace by Israel, kidnappings by Israel of Hezbullah officials within south Lebanon, and other incursions into Lebanon and attacks against individuals within Lebanon by Israel. This has never been one-sided.

Chuck,

This line that Israel bombed the people in Lebanon because they loved them is getting really old. Does anyone still believe it? Did anyone ever believe it?

Of course Israel hates the Shiite population in Lebanon and Nasrallah and Hezbullah and desires they be destroyed or leave Lebanon. Actions show that to be true. Israel engaged in over 7000 airstrikes aimed at Shiite neighborhoods and villages. Israel aimed approx. 2500 missiles from warships at these civilians and civilian objects in Lebanon. The damage has been described as carpet bombing. I think the dead are now at about 1300. Israel forced over 1 million Lebanese to flee their homes. Many went to Syria, and I am sure Israel would be happy if they stayed there and never came back to Lebanon. In the last three days before the cease fire was to take effect, Israel engaged in strikes of cluster bombs. Over 400 sites and over 100000 cluster bombs rained down right on the Shiite villages and around the Shiite villages and in the tobacco fields, that people rely on to make a living. These acts do not show love for the Shiite population in Lebanon. They show hate and a desire to terrorize and destroy. They are evidence of terrorist acts perpetrated by Isarel on Shiite civilians in Lebanon. I hope war crimes cases go forward to hold Israel accountable for their actions.

Terrorist has been defined by a United Nations Resolution and addresses acts by anyone against civilians, providing an inclusive ban on all forms of violence that intentionally targets civilians.
Resolution 1566

3. Recalls that criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act, and all other acts which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols related to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature, and calls upon all States to prevent such acts and, if not prevented, to ensure that such acts are punished by penalties consistent with their grave nature.

Dimitry said...

sherri

Firing artillery at civilians (and I mean targeting civlians like HA does, not accidently hitting them) is terrorism. But that's beyond the point.
July 12th attack was act of war against the state of Israel. If Lebanon's government didn't endorse it, they should've acted against the attackers. By not doing so, Beirut effectively declared war on Israel (particularly true if HA was official agent of the government in the area).

Look, before Israel limited its responces to constant HA provokations. Eventually, the camel's back was be broken. That's all there is to the past skirmishes.


Well, I'm off - I have a Palestinian in the Iron Mainden in my basement (have decided that torturing them in the west bank has gotten old, you see), and afterward I'm going to play darts with targets in the forms of Shitte children. I truly find it charming how you dictate not only HA's opinions, feelings and intentions (all honest, benevolent, humane and overall good) for them, but now you do the same to us (except that we're despicable, genocidal, torturing, murderous, and overall evil). Would you like to tell me whom else I hate, just so I know and won't mistakenly overlook it?

Shmulik said...

Sherri

I must say I don't think you understand the implications of your new argument that I quote here:
"Hezbullah (a political party within the Lebanese government)operated as a military force in south Lebanon, with the knowledge of the Lebanese government and to protect the Shiite populations of which they are a part of. There was even at least one written document that set forth the rights of Hezbullah, referred to as a Memorandum Of Understanding."
If what you say is true than on the 12h of july the STATE OF LEBANON has de facto declared WAR on Israel. Do you understand the implication of what you are saying? Do you mean that Seniora has lied when he said he isn't responsible for hizbollah's actions?
You can't have it both ways, either hizbollah is a rouge group inside Lebanon that shouldn't exist as it takes away the power and soverignty of Lebanon or the state of Lebanon has declared war on Israel, in which case you can't complain about attacking the Lebanese army, blockading the country or destroying any asset of the lebanese government.

chuck said...

jjjjjjjjjjjj
dimitry u got me on the floor laughing.

i have this friend in europe. every time we talk we joke about it that he will come to Israel and we'll go shoot down some palestinians.
now i will start telling him that we will go to shoot some shiites too.

i also met this girl from andora (a tiny state on the north spanish border) and we talked a litle bit and at the end of our conversation she told me "please, don't hurt any more palestinian".

i mean come on ! it's like asking me how many goats and cammels do i have at home and how big is the tent that i live in...
or showing the galili
as a desert(in the movie "sum of all fears")...


sherri,

i'm sorry to dissapoint u but we don't hate shiites.
Israel didn't target shiites, it targeted hisballa. it happened to be that hisballa got more support in shiites villages, and also becuase shiites make the majority of hisballa fighters. as been said before, hsiballa tryed to implement it's vision of a "culture of ressistance", well, it managed to do so mostly in shiite villages. so obviously these places were targeted in order to hit those who targeted Israeli civilians. it's like shooting at someone and then ask "why is he shooting back at me ?? he is not supposed to shoot me, i'm a civilian, i have no uniform".

but ofcourse sherri, u must know better then me about Israelies, because u'v been to Israel, u'v been to lebanon, hell, u must be from the international law comite.

i just can't understand where u get u'r imaginary numbers.
1,183 people died in lebanon in this war. not 1300 (u'r numbers r getting bigger everytime u make a new comment).

i agree on the cluster bombs issue, i already said it was stupid to do so.

well, such resolution mean that every country ever to make any kind of war, ever, is infact a terrorist country.
it's just a naive resolution. it belongs to a world where there r no wars and people live happily ever after. it's just not realistic. it's more like a dream. which i will be happy to share with u, and with the rest of the people who wrote this resolution.
i would have loved to live in suc a place where this kind of resolution had teeth.

Sherri said...

chuck,

It's like a robber runs into a school. There are hundreds of children everywhere. To try to catch the robber, Israel announces on an intercom, leave at once. Some kids are too scared to leave. Some run for the exits. Some fleeing children are shot at. Israel drops bombs on the school, levelling the builing. Fifty five children cannot be accounted for. The robber's body can't be found either. But the robber was a dangerous man. That justifies everything.

The figure of fatalities keeps changing. I guess it is due to all the bodies that are being found under the rubble. But they are just terrorists or kids that will grow up to be terrorists or relatives of terrorists or neighbors of terrorists. Their lives don't count, right?

chuck said...

again u bring this stupid simplistic argument.

what if the school is infact a school for kids who learn how to kill the policemen, and the teachers, whom just commited a massacre in another school, r using the kids as shields because they know that the police will hopleslly try to avoid hitting the kids. then some kids get hurt and some of the teachers try to disguise as kids and claim that this was a massacre for no reason, because they r all just innocent childeren.
but this school is one of many schools in the area, which in the police and teachers fire were hit too, but the people of the other schools r more familier and closer to the people of the first school so a few of them says it's the police's fault that their schools were also hit, and the rest r afraid to say anything against this school because the teachers of that school that weren't hit by the police will go to their homes and hurt their childeren if they did so.
and ofcourse there is the other foreign schools farther away in the south that were hit by some of the teachers fire that was trying to hit the policemen's families and schools.

and even this argument of mine is a simplistic comment to describe this situation.

u see the pattern in u'r comments ?
u see only one side.
Israel is a killer of innocent childeren.
u fail to see anything else because u'r brainwashed.

i won't be answering any more of u'r comments.
have a nice life in america.

Dimitry said...

sherri

No, it's like a guy who got his family, a big rifle, and a lot of ammo, gets on a high tower, sorrounds himself by his family members and begins sniping around the town. Would it be justified to shoot at him, even though that chances of hitting his kids are as good as hitting him (better, even) - or the moral thing to do is to let him kill random people without interruptions, maybe have someone with megaphone try to convince him it's not very nice what's he's doing?

Dimitry said...

Oh, and sherri, I'm still waiting. So far I'm hating Shi'ites and torturing Palestinians - those two I marked. Are there any other groups I'm hating that you want to tell me about? I would really like to know.

Sherri said...

dimitry,

My point is that a military response is not the answer in dealing with either Hezbullah or Hamas. Look, 1200 civilians are dead in Lebanon, many others injured, and there is substantial property damage(15 billion).

Israel wants its soldiers back and wants Hezbullah destroyed. Neither objective has been achieved.

In fact, there is now substantially more support for Hezbullah than there was before.

The military approach was a failure.

The answer is dialogue and diplomacy to address and resolve the underlying disputes that strengthen these extremist groups,
The Palestinian issue and the Sheeba Farms Occupation and unresloved Israeli Lebanese issues.

Antonio said...

I haven't read this particular one, but in interviews in european press D'Alema has never affirmed UNIFIL should disarm Hezballah. And he has been very clear in stating this is an issue it's up to the lebaneses to decide how it has to be faced.