Yesterday was a noteworthy day because the Lebanese government pushed forward a proposal to finally send the Lebanese Army into southern Lebanon with the objective of filling the vacuum that would ensue from an immediate Israeli withdrawal. Although not explicit, the Lebanese government also stated that Hizballah would remove its militia from the Southern border as well (numerous officials claimed that the Lebanese Army would be the only armed presence in the South).
Most people though, missed the more important development that took place yesterday – one that was subtle, but nevertheless fundamental in importance.
The major news of the day, for me at least, was the Lebanese government’s actual act of proposing a solution, as opposed to the solution itself. As if to emphasize that point even more, foreign ministers from all over the region traveled to Beirut, despite the war, and held their conference in the Lebanese Serrail (House of the Lebanese Government). These ministers’ apparently exclusive role was to show support for the Lebanese government, and to support a Lebanese initiative to bring this conflict to an end.
The message was clear, and very much needed: the way out of this mess is through the Lebanese state. Only the Lebanese state can absorb the remnants of Hizballah's military wing and subordinate it. More importantly however, the Lebanese state can only do so if it is given the opportunity, and provided with the needed resources and moral support.
Time is not on its side though. Every extra day the conflict lasts, it loses its legitimacy as a result of its impotence, and its resources are stretched to the point where even its current humanitarian functions become untenable.
I hope those seeking a diplomatic solution in New York remember that reality as they try to arrive at an agreement: the only way out of this mess is the Lebanese state. There is no other choice.
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75 comments:
there would have to be soo much that those arab states could do to assist lebanon to qwell it sunrest with HA..
there may well be subliminal talks about it..
but it doesnt seem like lebanon receives much help on that front at all..
can someone please enlighten me if my impression is wrong..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
The West has, for too long, ignored the plights of both Lebanon and Israel.
And now Iran is using Hezbollah against the both of us.
As for absorbing HZA into the LAF...
...you might as well forget sending troops and just ship the LAF uniforms to the south so the HZA guys can suit up!
peace, shalom, salaam
Dry Bones
Israel's Political Comic Strip Since 1973
and yet again i agree with you dany..
and again i lament our failure to be appointed PMs of our respective countries..
maybe next round matey
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
dany thanks for the comment, although, I think that tentatively at least, the Hizballah units will remain in-tact (albeit under a different command structure - i.e. LAF, as opposed to HA).
As for the Israeli commenters, let me say the following: there are no ideal solutions. If you believe that you are able to eliminate Hizballah as a military force, please think twice because that just ain't gonna happen.
You can't kill Hizballah. But you can suffocate its military component by preventing arms from reaching it... and for that to happen, you need to look elsewhere (i.e. not Lebanon).
The worst thing that could happen to both Lebanon and Israel is a long drawn out war under the delusional pretense that Hizballah can be eliminated.
I believe that I can use an economic concept to elaborate a little more: The Law of Diminishing Returns. (Ghassan, what do you say?)
The marginal return of increasing military force by one "unit" eventually start to decrease over time. I believe that you/i.e. Israel have already passed the peak of that curve.
dany - perhaps you can shed some of your learned light on a query i have..
a friend of mine in beirut who has a muslim dad and a christian mother told me that sectarian mixing was very much on the rise..
is this your impression?
Hi Sigri
SOLUTIONS
it is certainly possible.. if you examine this blog on the 2 August you will see how Dany and I negotiated a peace deal based on his proposal with my amendments..
LEARNING FROM EACHOTHER
i think anyone seeking to learn certainly can and has.. another blogger to note is chas - who has experiences from ireland who has been sharing his observations as well.. adding a unique dimension..
BRIDGING THE HATRED
i think if you trawl through the posts and comments of th elast few days you will note a change in the general air of the commenters.. people are seeking less to bombard eachother with laundered propaganda and more to bring to the forum fragments of breaking news for discussion and group review..
a lot of us are seeking to blog - for peaceful purposes..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
The major news of the day, for me at least, was the Lebanese government’s actual act of proposing a solution, as opposed to the solution itself...the only way out of this mess is the Lebanese state.
That sounds very responsible. Yet...if "the only way out is the Lebanese state", why did the Lebanese government need to call a conference of Arab foreign ministers for their approval first?
solomon, images speak much lowder than words. the image of Lebanon taking the lead, and then asking the Arab delegation to support its initiative, spoke volumes yesterday!
i am an avid commenter of this blog.. i post on another blog as well www.emspeace.blog.com
i generally surf blogs of people who respond to my posts and comments but other than that i find it time consuming enough just focussing on these two..
however i have actually noticed that some of the people posting peaceful comments on my blog - started their own blogs originally with much more violent messages.. it was encouraging to note that they had since moved forward to other ways of thinking..
i'm a 30 yo israeli guy who grew up around the world.. ive lived in australia.. north america.. asia.. europe and now i am a lawyer/musician in israel..
i studied international law in china and am extremely passionate about peace..
anyway.. enough about me.. all you need to do is google and you'll find heaps ;)
grateful nevertheless to all journalists who publicise the blogging phenominon - to me it represents a process of undermining the hatred.. and verifying the mainstream press.. we challenge eachother's news and we mirror eachother's stories of sadness and together build a much more balanced perspective.. whether or not we emotionally subscribe to it..
forging friendships with people across political lines potentially can strengthen the region's immunity against aggression..
@..............................
How new weapons come to Hizbulaah
since Syria is surounded by
countries friendly or occupied
by US?
are the weapons coming
through the sea?.....
If Satellite find the roads the weapons
are circulated,then the solution
to peace is more close.
Raja, I still feel that the "message" of yesterday is the opposite of what you interpret: that the Israel-Hizbollah War is now a pan-Arab affair and can only be solved on that basis, and the Lebanonese government is to be treated as the mouthpiece of the group, not as a party that has the power to actually negotiate anything.
How is anyone supposed to arrive at a different conclusion? If the Leb gov't was truly independent, why call for a meeting of other Arab foreign ministers at all?
yuval i agree - we're too deep.. we're all too deep into this.. we need to be bailed.. and we need not to be ashamed of reaching out for help..
everyone knows we have a strong army.. there is no need to waste more lives and forests and hope just to make sure its all we think about..
i think the arab world is trying very hard to tell us something..
i think they're condemnation of HA when the violence broke out and their cryptic announcements since cannot go unnoticed..
not too long ago their voices would have sounded out very differently with a wave of unequivocal condemnation of israel and unconditional support to HA and nayone perceived to be on the other side..
now not only are they cautious but i would argue behaving in an overly restrained manner insofar as signposting the plight of the average lebanese civillian..
we can blame the government of lebanon all we like.. in our western world - suffering a process - such as the arming of a terrorist group is considered to often be a form of participation when it is done by the ultimate authority ie the government..
however - what we need to consider is that the lebanese people.. while aspiring to democracy are a fledgling regime.. their democratic institutions were brutalised last year.. my heart cried out when that beautiful outspoken corageous female journalist got blown up.. i felt like a part of me was blown up.. after the attack was reported the local news here in israel showed an interview she ran - what a powerhouse of a women!! she was clearer a fighter for the cause of democratising lebanon.. but it was all the clearer that her battle was uphill on a rainy day on a muddy slope and against a mamoth..
i genuinely think that HA does not give a damn about the lebanese that are dying in our proovoked attacks and despite what some of my lebanese friends think.. i consider HA's attacks to be fundamentally unjust - .. i genuinely believe that the death of both lebanese as well as israeli civillians does not hurt our enemies at all.. i think it empowers them.. it would be like if a great looking girl punished me with kisses.. Of course i would continue to do everything i could to annoy.. furthermore it would sanctify my efforts and encourage me to escalate ;)
so what's left.. how do we convince our lebanese neighbours that their efforts to stabilise and ultimately enjoy the same freedoms we do - in the same way we do - and ultimately become our allies - are worthwhile.. how do we pursuade them not to flee their country for good and how to persist with their quest for stability and prosperity as the jewel of the east mediterranean..?
i'm not sure..
i just hope they dont give up.. i think we all stand to lose a lot more than just some regional good vibe..
wishing we have a speedy resolution to this conflict..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
i'm from syria and i want to contribute the following:
1-many in syria (myself included ) don't approve of those groups that undermines the security in the region and i regret that my country is percieved as a part of a "hatred" axes against israel.
2-syria choose ( at least declare )that peace is its strategic choice and our proposals to resume peace negotiations got neglected both by U.S and israel while lebanon choose the oher path (i.e resistence) and israel gave them south lebanon back while the golan hieght is still ocuppied so basiclly israel is sending the wrong signals.
for all israelis try for once to refrain from accusing us of every evil in the world and you may consider rewarding our peace commitment by resuming peace negotiations
yuval i like your suggestion..
we are regularly criticised by all of those nations.. and i think its only fair for them to demonstrate once and for all how it should be done..
besides - i want peace.. the israeli army is well oiled.. if need be they can always theoretically go back..
we currently have hundreds of rockets a day hitting us..
its not like we have that much to lose by giving peace a chance
wishing we did
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
yuvalfromtlv,
i agree with you
let me tell you that i am personally against our "alliance" with iran because they are as you said fanatics.
ofcourse israel has the right to exist
but again maybe some positive approach can save my country from this unfavorable state of affairs that it've stuck into.
yuvalfromtlv,
this is unfortunate
you made a good point ...i have even wrote a post earlier about the propaganda in our media in my blog
hopefully we can bridge the gap and overcome this barrier to peace by building routes of communications between our countries
dougjnn,
first of all i hope that come true secondly ,we in syria want as we say the peace of courge not giving up and that if president Assad can accomplish his popularity will go up , but, however i think as yuvalfromtlv said, as long as this undemocratic regime continues we can't have that kind of peace
yuvalfromtlv,
here is a link to that post
http://roneceve.blogspot.com/2006/07/syrian-official-media-should-be-more.html
gsh-observer,
your are correct the Golan heights are important to us and we would like to get it back , but more importantly (in my view) is to be able to live in this region in lasting and commprehencive peace
boris the bullet dodger,
i appreciate your interest in my country,
syrians is trying to modernize their coutry and society and be open to the world . we had hope when president Assad assume power (i.e inherted the power), but with out democracy there will be no moving forward and we are trying to change things for the better,and we tend (rightously i believe) to resist any thing imposed from the outside
considering lebanon we see them as our arab "brothers" as raja likes to put it
and we don't have anything against israelis actually we share a lot of things (we are both semites and our languages stem from the same source )maybe if israel gives the golan back to us syria ans israel relations would be much better than any other arab country
gsh-observer;j,
there are more of us (moderates)than of them ,
and eventually we will prevail.
I'm a lebanese and i just want to ask one question?! why should WE always pay for the conflict of OTHERS!!!?!?!?!?!?! For God's sake stop doing war and let us live we have had enough! We want Peace!
Youssef
http://youssefsblog.blogspot.com/
dimitry,
i don't see that it is possible to achieve peace with out the golan hieghts ,although i wish it was..
well concerning the reason national pride is maybe one ,but there is tabaraya lake which is a source of water and of strategic importance and israel did not want to withdraw completly from our side of it and that we were told is the reason why peace negotiation halted.
Whoever wanted to see the "interview" with captured hezbollah fighter, here it is:
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/3850/954268
dougjnn,
this is maybe true , but even though i see that there is determination on our side to take back all of that area , afterall israel gave egypt and jordan all their land back why it refuses to do the same with us ,moreover when there is peace no body will be interested in firing misslles , because peace i think is the only gurantee for security(look what is happening in lebanon/gaza) and that's why we always reiterate what the madrid peace conferance has approved the famous saying: peace in return for land - alard moqabel alsalm
yuvalfromtlv,
your are right the golan hieghts is a very beautiful spot, for my part i don't care much about pieces of land (turkey took away the iskanderun-north of syria on the mederitanian - and we weren't able to get it back) and now we will give shebba farms to lebanon .i look forward to living in peace and work together for prosperity of the ME.
its unfortunate that you distrust syria because syria like lebanon have many liberal element in the society and is more receptive to new ideas .
conserning our demography (i'm secular btw)we have majority of sunnis and the alawites and we have cristians from the orient church as well as other churches,
To Raja
I applaud your amazing attention to details. Indeed the symbolism of the FM meeting in Beirut as support for the Lebanese government has evaded even me. I think that perhaps this is what made Syrian FM Walid Mualem storm out in anger as he was told that Hezbollah will no longer be allowed to use Lebanon as a platform for fighting for Syria's ambitions. It is undortunate though that the only person who in a normal democracy should be giving the most support for the government's authority on the state, the president, is not doing so. President Lahoud is still preoccupied with carrying furvor with his masters in Syria through support for Hezbollah rather than actually supporting the authority of the Seniora government.
To fightingsullyven
Yes, the integration of Hezbollah to the Lebanese army would make it a predominantly Shia army with loyalties to Hezbollah. Yet it would also make the government the supreme authority over military decisions unless a military coup occurrs. If that happens, then we would be back in the start with Israel going back in in full force. Let us hope it will not have to come to that.
dimitry,
About the Kinneret ("Sea of Galilee")... Well, technically, the so called international border is keeping the entire shore of it Israeli hands. 10 meters-wide strip of land in some places. Naturally, the Syrians took over those parts of shore Israel wasn't in position to defend back then. Indeed, the reason previous negotiations fell through was that Syrians insisted on getting the land they occupied beyond the international border.
this the first time i learn about that and for that i blame our media the same demagogic media that is hijaking syrian opions and give false image about our public opinion.
let me tell you , people here don't percieve things as you do ,it is very strange to tell people here that syria occupied land from israel , as we doesn't view israel as any other country. our perspective is that the golan hieghts is all syrian and we want to regain control of the whole area .
To GSH
move them into Israel. However I see no point for this discussion now as I hope PM Olmert will ocntinue with the plan. So far Israel has evacuated Gaza and Lebanon and in both times saw it was not a perlude to negotiations but rather a perlude to further demands. If that continues, I do not see it a s likely that the Israeli public will continue support for any more concessions. Thank you Hezbollah and Hamas.
omer(israeli),
i despise our ivolvement with any terroist(or resistence) group,
some may think that it is a card in our hand to pressure israel , i believe the exact opposite if we distance ourselves from those groups this is how we put pressure on israel.
and let me tell you one thing that may surprice you: i think you must not reward such position (i.e supporting terroism/resistence) by giving us the golan hieghts , this not a valid basis for peace ,
i just hope we give up those dispecable tactics
p.s :also to be practical i don't see that syria can reign in hezbollah maybe late president hafez aasad could and secondly hezbolah is a lebanese party you seem to forget that.
gsh-observer,
i totally agree with you and that is the sad fact(i.e that misconceptions on both sides are preventing us from working towards peace)
omer(israeli),
we all can share the resource of this spot of land that we are in and hopefully we can make it a great place for all of us :)
omer and yuval
i hate to say this - but directing messages to sherri is a waste of time.. she doesnt listen to anything you say and frankly she's not interested in answers to her questions.. i think she's on a bit of an atraf..
she reminds me of this lady that used to stand in front on my apartment block in telaviv when i was a kid - the lady looked a bit like jesus is said to have (beard and all) and she used to stand underneath my balcony and scream out different fragmented of biblical text.. we had no idea what she was saying but she'd yell and yell and yelland every third word you'd hear "lord" "jesus" etc.. it was so annoying/creepy.. so one day one of the neighbours asked the police to relocate her to a park or something..
she wasnt very happy about the move but we had quiet..
anyway.. im about to go to sleep - i wish us all a safe and peaceful night and hope we have a workable solution very very soon..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
war sux
amigrossman,
well , i respect your views ,however; israel captured the golan hieghts by force ,so it is an occupying force and possessing a piece of land iligitamely for a period of time doesn't entitle you to claim it yours and there is the UN resulation that consider israel desicion to annex golan hieght iligal and null and you have un scr that ask israel to withdraw from the golan hieghts.
concerning the other peace treaties i have posted previously that the syrian society just like the lebanese have many liberal and open elements and it will be a much more constructive relationship between syria and israel than any other arab country, if we managed to achieve peace .
boris the bullet dodger,
i believe you are refering to the bombardment of hama because of violence of the muslim brothers in the 80s
i only can talk for myself: i hate extremism , however ;this is no way to handle the situation because you just create more extremism by oppressing people , i believe there is a british saying that if you want to get rid of bad idea let it be vented so people can see how wrong it is .
so by violence you create more violence and you don't solve the issue and this lead us back to the current crisis.
yaser
you represent your country well my friend..
one of my best friends overseas was a syrian muslim who was a member of the local israeli chamber of commerce - and we used to go to chamber functions together..
i can tell there are many more decent folk like him and i hate that i am asked by international relations to feel animosity to syria.. its absurd.. we need to learn to separate the silliness of leaders with the average decent folk who have to suffer those leaders enough as it is..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
we're not that different
dimitry,gsh-observer,
i am secular so i am not a muslim, and i would like syria to continue and uphold secularism and if force is needed to preserve that and to ensure the country's security then fine by me ,so i partly agree with you that it was a needed blow to extrimists .
lirun,
thank you very much ,our people deserves much better conditions than the current state of affairs.
thank you everybody for your positive responce i hope we can resolve the ME conflict and achieve comprehencive and lasting peace,
see you later...
mixed emotions..
i am so proud of my friends that are prepared to leave their lives to defend my country.. without hesitation they accept the call and go to task..
i am so disappointed in my government for showing such weak leadership and such poor planning.. i cannot give true criticism because i dont know what i would do in their place.. but what is clearly lacking is some genuine statesmanship.. some real and powerful diplomacy and leadership that makes sense..
a "touch and go" approach is unacceptable..i dont care how may surprises the HA throw at us.. surely we must be better equipped to deal with it than this..
i hope for an end to the conflict.. i hope for peace in our region.. with lebanon and syria for that matter.. and i also hope for peace with the palestinians..
i hope for better government for my neighbours and most definitely for my country too..
we all deserve better than this S#$%t (to use bush' phraseology)
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
let's stop
ps sherri.. your unsubstantiated and one-sided reports are only going to generate more of banter of hatred.. sometimes i think maybe you're actually a radical israeli trying to piss moderates off ;)
at the risk of sounding a bit "on something"..
just wanted to let you know of this link http://www.dreamstaterecords.com/peaceearthsafe/
a musician friend of mine collected songs that we all wrote about peace a few months back and they are all hosted on this site
may you enjoy and be inspired
lirun
telaviv
www.esmpeace.blogspot.com
wondering what you guys think of Sami Yusuf
is there much patience for his angle during these times?
i think its amazing
wishing peaceful coexistence to us all
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
I'm sorry for all Lebanes, but where have you been for the past six years. This sounds like a trap from the Hezbollah and there senders the Iranians. A trap that the Lebanes and the Israelies will pay for it. To finish this war the Lebanes must take there own country in to thier hands anf finish by force the Iranian street gang, and to do so they need the world's help. For a long lasting peace in the middle East I hopr this will hapen, and on that day I hope I will be able to come to Beirut.
Mickey, Jerusalem
http://mickeyyahav.blogspot.com/
if the bridges and road are in fact in tact.. i would prefer that the people evacuated..
while i am still unclear as to how he media can swarm every village while people are stuck.. i think the devestation of the road networks has been one of the biggest concerns..
its so ironic.. as a ttackers we are a "super power" for HA we are "the cowardly weak enemy" for sherri we are "murderers"..
it appears israel has whatever face its enemy wants..
but for none of these are we people - who also deserve the right to live without the constant hail of rockets on our heads
wishing peace for lebanon.. wishing peace for israel.. also wishing peace for me.. and what the heck for sherri too..
omer.. dont you know?
sherri is a lyrical gangsta
is 13,000 rockets posturing? is bombing us continuously posturing?
i dont know what beliefs are ideally based on.. but i dont know if im as concerned bout your beliefs of how true the propaganda is.. i am concerned about the fact that people on both sides are suffering the awful outcome of this "posturing"..
have you sherri ever had a gun pulled to your head? think about it for a second and how it might feel.. think about what you would imagine if there was one right next to you.. aiming at you..
now imagine that gun was a rocket.. and now imagine there were 13,000!! of them.. purposesly built and bought for your sweet little high ground claiming head..
your words are antagonising because the ignore the fact that while these rockets aim at our heads - we still want peace!!
people have different strategies on how they think israel should get there.. i for one believe that war is probably not the best method - but ultimately we do all want peace because we are not talking at the expense of others in another land.. we are watching our families and friends and colleagues and neighbours being sent off or bombed or evacuated from their homes into tent cities..
i am not saying that we have had nothing to do with the current situation.. it is indeed complex.. but your conspiracy theories about lebanon's psycho neighbour from the south are imflammatory and insulting to all victims of this conflict..
i question whether you really intend to dishonour innocent victims as you do..
you are clearly passionate about this topic.. i just wish you would apply your passion in a way that made sense..
just because your husband comes from one side of the conflict doesnt make everyone else the devil..
an if you care so much about the lebanese then you are better off promoting peace with them then inspiring people to justify actions that you seek to deplore..
wishing peace for everyone and especially you sherri
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
you sure about that? maybe they're really just posturing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-brkmfrxrQY&eurl=
Interesting video that i found through aljazeera.com with the member of the british parliament George Galloway...
Both sides argue always with great passion but what nobody can deny is that the delay of UN procedures is a clear evidence of the speculations that take place. Civilians is not a priority and it never was since UN creation...
Sherri:
Just saw the movie Obsession. I recommend you find it on the net (available some days on google video) and watch. The value to you is: it has lots of video of Nas's speeches, mainly from 2005, in the original arabic, with subtitle translations. I believe that, once you've heard what Nas has to say, in his own words, you'll have a much clearer view of who wants to commit genocide against whom. Regarding israel and the usa: genocidal intent towards the shiites is a hypothesis on your part. Regarding hez: genocide against the jooz is an overtly stated policy.
Jacques:
Someone else, wiser than me, noted that you can only negotiate for peace when both sides desire it. When one side is committed to war, it's not negotiation - it's appeasement. For this reason, any treaty with hez will just be 'peace in our time' - not worth the paper it's written on. I'm also alarmed by the notion of absorbing hez into the lebanese army, for similar reasons. Sadly, it seems to me that the only way to peace with hez is their military defeat. Sadly - tragically, really - because innocents die, or have their lives wrecked, in the process.
More generally:
I'd like to make a request for local knowledge and information, given the miasma of mis/disinformation that surrounds what we hear in the press (I'm in the usa). Brigitte Gabriel has suggested that the lebanese army is already largely muslim - that the christian lebanese typically don't sign up. Any truth in this? If true, are the lebanese forces mainly sunni or mainly shiite? What will happen if/when hez is intergrated into these forces?
Omer;
I do not disagree with you and i dont adopt exactly what Galloway says but the whole issue is beyond Israel - Lebanon and you know it better than me and for that reason i commented on what UN does.
Being an outsider i guarantee you that Isreal is seen as the US representative in the area and there are various roots for this kind of thinking. Consequently, it seems to me rationale that when US supplies Israel with weapons (even nuclear weapons?????)any other country (or resistance group) in the area can do something similar for its own reasons.
As a matter of fact, regardless you are a lebanese or Israel living actually or not in the area you have to face the bigger implications of this conflict and the stakes in danger. Unfotunately, the destiny of the area has overcome the interests of the local people.
And to put my personal opinion i am sick with the western propaganda of terrorism regarding any opposite group. This blog has convinced me that Hezbollah for instance is not a group of pure guerillas but the truth is that Isreal and US have also tremendous responsibilities for what is going on.
One reason that US have to decided to discuss again the resolution paper is they afraid the possibility of Civil War in Lebanon. How many Iraq(s) can exist at the same time in such a fragile region?
This is not a battle between bad and good people. This is a ridiculous conflict that takes place more than 1000 years. And as long as the US (the new representative of the civilized world my ass) is trying to convince that everybody else is a terrorist then ...
Nothing's gonna change...
gsh observer
the use of anti-semitic as anti jew is the accepted interpretation that he word has received over time.. it does more to identify the persons as a jew hater and refers less to the someone generically hating semitic people.. although as someone who has lived extensively in countries around the world and with strong assimilation abilities i can tell you that often antisemitic people do hate or in some cases just shy away from both arabs and jews.. i think this trend explains why everywhere that i have worked outside israel my best friends were lebanese.. syrian.. egyptian.. turkish.. iranian (although they all seemed to call themselves persian)
it drives me insane that i cant seamlessly continue my friendships now that i am back in israel..
my heart does not understand or accept that this in any way changes.. i remain in close contact with all my friends.. and this does not conflict with me being a proud israeli..
we would occasionally discuss mid east politics.. however i cant remember a single argument about it
Omer;
If i could answer your question i should be proposed for the Peace Nobel Prize of 2007 :-)
I really don't know. One crucial obstacle is that there is no consensus among Arab nations-countries-tribes or whatever for what they really want.
I also understand that "Jihad" debates or other extremist approached do not contribute at all and it would be probably a waste of time to sit down and discuss who has the blame for the conflicts and who is right or not. I really wish UN would be able to provide justice but it definitely cant.
I really wonder how you Israelis believe you can survive when you are surrounded by so many "enemies" without very serious compromises or (to be more fair) without a radical change of your politics. During the Gulf War Saddam launched an attack and afterwards he was talking against you every time he had an opportunity till the end of his regime.
Now that this enemy has disappeared what is the Israeli opinion for the fact that US has so many troops in Iraq? Does it seem to you that this occupation is fair or not? Currently in UK many people disagree with that approach but they are not ready to vote against Blur for other political issues.
But you are not UK. You live in the core of Middle East and (even if it is not absolutely fair) you have to prove you are seeking long-term peace. I mentioned Iraq because it was an opportunity for Israel to show that it has a real interest for peace in the area.
However, the arguments for what is going on during the last 4 weeks have convinced me you prefer to be considered the powerful factor in the area (always on US shoulders). But in such a case you will have numerous enemies even if Iran or Syria get defeated in a possible conflict.
And the worst of all you will re-generate all these conspiracy agendas about antisemetism and similar issues. And the history will continue in the same f*****g way
gsh-observer:
Defining anti-semitism gets so boring. A couple of historical notes might help.
Originally the notion of 'semite' was philological - referring to a group of languages not peoples. It was a descriptive term, with no emotional or evaluative overtones. Arabic, and a number of other languages, were indeed encompassed by the term 'semitic'.
Then, largely due to Hitler, 'semite' assumed a racial meaning: the jooz. Hitler, and his nazi followers, described themselves unabashedly as 'anti semitic' - took pride in the label. So 'anti semitism' does indeed have roots in propaganda - nazi propaganda, in which it was endorsed as a purely positive philosophy.
In this racial sense, the term anti-semitism never included groupings of peoples beyond the jooz. When, for example, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem asked Hitler whether arabs were included in the notion of anti- semitism, A.H. informed him no - the term meant 'anti-jooz' (but refused to have Mein Kampf edited to clarify the distinction).
Nowadays, following Hitler's no doubt illustrious example, the term 'anti-semitic' has entered common usage, to imply 'anti-jooz' in a purely racial sense. I've never heard it used to encompass anti-arab.
Your notion of the term's being "pure propaganda" is disingenuous, particularly when used to discredit an israeli's attempt to identify racism directed at his people. The term's modern usage derives directly from attacks on jooz, made by those who hate that 'race'. Omer is not ignorant when he refers to anti semitic propaganda. He is being accurate and precise in using the terminology favored by his enemies. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Is there some other terminology that you'd prefer omer to adopt? Or would it be better if he pretended that propaganda against his people does not exist?
amon ra..
when we held the sinai - we settled it.. we had many towns and resorts and a thriving population who were devestated by their removal..
a whole generation of kids holidayed there..
israel not only left every drop of territory for peace but it even went further and rubbed extra salt in the wound to ensure that its neighbour was clear on its intention and gave back the tiny resort of taba.. one small hotel that was israeli owned and run..
today you can see that israelis are happy to use a passport to get to places that they continue to love..
even after all of the attacks on sinai - we still flock there with our tourist dollar and we love the locals who pamper us and bless us with their hospitality as we continue to enjoy land that we shall never claim as ours but where we shall always feel at home..
jordan was a simpler story.. but there too.. we undertook psychotic water sharing commitments - allowing the jordanians to hedge on minimum quantities - even if they were not available.. just so we could ensure that we had a committed partner for peace..
israel has demonstrated time and time again that it wants peace..
unfortunately good will in the middle east means many different things to many different people..
the head of hamas has a daughter.. she is in love with a jailed terrorist who is kept on israeli soil.. the princess of palestine - still a minor - managed to get through our security undetected and visited him in jail.. head of hamas was very alarmed and concerned.. israel gave her royal treatment and returned her home safely notwithstanding that prior to election she may well have been killed if she sat in the same car as her dad during an assassination attempt..
at the time.. this was described by the media as a gesture of goodwill..
but these things generally go unnoticed..
the problem is generally that goodness is too easily overlooked and we tend to let the distasteful items spoil the meal..
i believe personally that we all need to look at some of the good stuff in our region.. there are many encouraging storied and achievements..
wishing us all peace..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
i know we all want it
Dougjnn;
I certainly dont want something like what you mentioned but i think it is impossible a resolution with the absolute devitalisation of Hezbollah sooner or later.
If there was an immediate cease-fire with an immediate beginning of negotiations in UN i dont think Hezbollah would be crazy enough to launch any rockets because they would loose any diplomatic advantage. However, as long as the delay of resolution is combined with more Israeli attacks and more civilian deaths that turns against Israel in public opinion.
amon ra:
Regarding conspiracy agendas about antisemitism:
"The Hour will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
Israel exists, even though surrounded by enemies, because it has the strength, will and - dare I say - moral superiority to defeat them.
1earth, Omer, Lirun;
Your simultaneous responses are clear enough. You believe you have done enough compromises and i am not suggesting that you "DONT HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST". Therefore, due to the fact that the other side has also numerous arguments and who i am to say who is right or not...
Terror will continue and i dont give a damn of who has the label of terrorist. It is both sides fault while you somehow advocate that only your "enemies" are the terrorists. Well... It seems to be the other side of the mirror on what Galloway says.
As a matter of fact, Omer; if i cant answer your question of how peace can emerge then can you answer me what is your base of hope??????
You hope on what? That Arabs will wake up one day without looking towards Israel with mixed or enemy emotions??? I merely dont get it...
I dont want to see you as an american but they are your allies so you share things.
i think our survival is independent of defeat.. being jewish has a lot to do with the ability to withstand adversity..
alexander the great knew this and today the modern world knows this..
its an angering trait.. but we dont go away.. we come back stronger..
i do believe it is the time to leverage such strength for a political evolution in our region.. we dont need to fight to subsist.. we need to all learn to stop fighting to live..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
time to redefine objectives
amon ra
even sharon (a man i never supported) said - that israel needs to make painful concessions for its own good..
many of us do acknowledge this..
it is even the declared policy of the governing party - unlike ist predecessor who adopted it in stark contrast to its stated policy..
while we listen to the hints of the arab world.. perhaps it should also listen to ours..
i would go so far as saying that direct dialog would be good.. even if unproductive at first.. even if unproductive for a very long time..
just like this blog - it appears that discussing is a great first step to understanding
1earth
I agree: it's ironical that it's the antisemites who seek to delegitimize the term "antisemitism". I also agree that the term has no history of use beyond jooz.
Yes, a European jew was first to coin the term antisemitism. But within 20 years, racist germans were already using it to label (what they regarded as!) a positive philosophy. And we're talking the 19th century here - not the 20th.
Semitic, though, is a linguistic term, and goes back to the 18th century.
So there's a sleight of hand played by the delegitimizers. They slip a broad philological idea (semitic) into a narrow racist idea (antisemitic) to make it appear that the latter is meaningless. Too wide and all encompassing. Only the ignorant would use the word… it's just propaganda… a conspiracy theory…
Doesn't matter. It's pretty easy to know antisemitism when we see it. Sadly, we see it a lot these days.
Dick;
The use of the term "moral superiority" is not your privilege. Obviously, the others are using it too and it is not my job to find out who is right. But i guarantee you that this kind of mentality does not help.
Lirun;
I absolutely agree with you
gsh
i am happy with my peace with jordan and egypt.. when i am in eilat and i see two peaceful borders that have not seen a shot fired in decades - it makes me proud and hopeful..
many warm relations start cold..
it is a start to build on.. and a desparately desired alternative to war..
i sat law exams with jordanians in jerusalem and we got along just fine.. the egyptians welcome me when i visit..
this is not as much as iwould like.. but it gives me hope..
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
peace starts with hope
gsh-observer:
1earth pointed out the relationship between nazi germany and the me, so I won't need to.
I would like to say though: you don't have to be jewish to bring nazi germany into the discussion. I brought them in, and i'm an atheist (raised christian) englishman living in the usa. If you follow up on 1earth's link, or look up the Grand Mufti - for example on wikipedia, or the history channel - I think you'll find that nazi germany remains highly relevant as a source of today's troubles.
amon ra:
Sorry about talking about moral superiority. I got carried away.
Regarding "the other side", though: I don't have a dog in this race. I'm not jewish or muslim (married to one, though), israeli or lebanese. I was talking about how it looks to me as a concerned outsider.
Still, you're right. We need to move things forward, reach a point where we can all agree to dislike each other in peace. Hasty value judgements like mine won't help in that process.
Gsh;
Undoubtedly propaganda is not unilateral. And many people thrive of this propaganda as it happens not only in ME but in every corner of this world.
It is obvious that you can not arrive in an agreement regarding anthropological, religious or definitional matters. So maybe you have to go one step further accepting this difference.
dick;
All of us make hasty comments occasionally. And even if were somehow "informed" as gsh points out, it is positive we are ready to reconsider or at least discuss some very definite perspectives we have
GSH
good question about how i see peace unfolding or rather being woven with lebanon..
to be honest - had you asked me two months ago i would have said that with lebanon i foresaw the warmest most amazing peace for three reasons..
(a) we didnt have a significant border dispute
(b) geographically we are the closest.. the jordan valley isolates mainstream israel from jordan.. and egypt and israel are buffered by the sinai - so these arent real neighbours in the classic sense.. we may as well be overseas
(c) lebanon has busted its ass to get into democratic shape.. not just because it looks good internationally but because there is a true desire to be a productive member of the mediterranean community and move forward.. thats what i believe anyway..
i perceive this war to be akin to a stroke.. it has parralised our chances of genuine fruitful peace and left us stranded at a stage where we will focuson rehabilitation for a while before we can again consider excelling in this relationship and before we build the first true model of good neighbourly relations in the middle east - something that does not exist anywhere else in our region.. even between the arab states as far as i know..
nevertheless.. i do believe and trust in the depths of my heart that this will happen - and on one sunny day in the not so distant future we will find ourselves best friends as we have never been before..
i see free trade amongst us and academic and reseacrh based collaboration.. i imagine cultural exchanges and great tourism.. i can see posh lebanese people filling the hotels near my apartment in tel aviv and i can imagine more israelis understanding arabic while more lebanese will start to pick up hebrew words.. i see our fashion designers working wonders in beirut and israelis going on furniture expeditions through lebanese villages discovering treasure in rural trash for its exotic nature..
i better stop.. because i can easily dream of so many things between us.. i just hope more people share the dream and begin to value it as much as i do..
our leaders need to comprehend how much this means to us so that the electoral value can drive them to materialise this vision..
lirun
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
i swear im sober ;)
Lirun;
You have a vision for the area and you d like to be an active participant in it. That is beautiful :-)
I also endorse that Lebanon should be your closest country in this "complicated" area.
abir alwatan;
Samuel Jackson refers to that part of Iezekiel in Pulp Fiction movie...
I also clarify that i dont mean to insult you :-)
wooohooo
go trancer!!!
im not the only one
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
let the madness of peace spread ;)
and another one!!!
this is awesome..
thank you doha raja and friends for providing us a forum to connect - i think you deserve a nobel peace prize..
realistic?
nothing great is achieved based on constraints of commonly held perceptions of realism..
stuff that.. aim for the stars and hit the moon.. that's what i live by..
i think it was worth
without peace with egypt we would hever have had peace with jordan..
wishing for more
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
"baby steps just little baby steps - they seem so small but so far they can take you
baby steps just little baby steps - every baby one day will learn to run too"
my typing is getting a bit out of control..
i should get some sleep..
good night everyone
may we all have safe day tomorrow
wishing peace to us all
lirun
dimitri my friend..
not talking about ME politics for a moment.. is your cup generally half full or half empty?
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