Wednesday, August 16, 2006

My Army Heads South

I remember when a main military checkpoint that greets you as you enter the North of Lebanon on the coastal highway was handed to the Lebanese Army from the Syrian, a couple of years back. I was in the car with my father. He stopped at the checkpoint, lowered the car window, smiled and said: "Marhaba watan!" He told me that we should be proud of our Army and I obliged.

And now I watch on TV Lebanese Army covoys heading south. They've been working since the ceasefire took effect to build and repair makeshift bridges so they could make their trip south.

They have a tough job ahead of them? Yes, no one can deny it. So little is known from the beltway here about the soldiers' morale and thoughts. Are they ready for such a move? And what mandate has the Cabinet empowered them with? Is it disarming Hizbullah or simply protecting the southern borders? We shouldn't forget that there is perhaps an extremely negative image of the Army in the eyes of many Lebanese right now because they did not get involved with Hizbullah in resisting the Israeli incursions.

In my mind I believe that the worst thing we can do to is embroil the Army in politics. Soldiers have a mission and must fulfill it, it's the job of the Cabinet and Parliament represented by the people to take swift action towards resolving the issue of Hizbullah's arms, our standing issues with Israel (end of air and sea blockade, POWs, Shebaa Farms), and Syria (especially ensuring that there is no smuggling of arms taking place). But resolving these issues should take place within a very tight deadline, lest the Army loses its grip on itself.

I am most disappointed by our President who is a former Army General and was forever touted as the "unifier", namely bringing in former militiamen into the fold of the Army after the end of the civil war and building a strong, nationalistic institution. Despite this history, he has not shied whatsoever from criticizing the Army and claiming that it's weak and possesses no substantial arms (which is true), and instead supporting Hizbullah as an alternative on the southern border, because, in his words, guerilla warfare is the way to deter Israeli aggression.

President Lahoud, who was so fervently elected to the Presidency eight years ago, carried the banner of strong state institutions. Where does that figure in his stands lately? Not that he is significant whatsoever on the political scene.

All what I want to say is that I root for our Army. I am proud of them. When I see a Lebanese soldier, I see my country. Yes, yes, of course this is a romanticized view of this institution, but this is what we've got.

I can never forget how the Army took a nationalistic stand when they were ordered to stop protesters from heading to Beirut right before the March 14 mass demonstration and they instead allowed them to go through. The Army has always served as an internal security force; perhaps today will be the day when they will resume their real role, protecting the borders of Lebanon.

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

72 comments:

Loli said...

I look at the photo, and I feel proud too, despite how little prepared the army is for this very difficult and delicate task.

May God protect them!

Peace to all of us, and good luck to our army!

carine said...

i'm so proud of them, too.

Liliane said...

Kibro wledna ! :) Alla ykoun ma3oun!

Bad Vilbel said...

Today is a day to be proud and support the Army.

We'll go back to talking about Hizbullah tomorrow.

Good post!!

Mustapha said...

The Syrian 7ajez el madfoon had a provoking presence. Watching Lebanese soldiers move south is such a relief

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

I must say that the Lebanese soldiers look much better than our IDF....LOL
We welcome the LA and I hope we see lots of ceder emblems blowing in the wind all along the border from Rosh ha nikra to metulla. Just get rid of those ugly and menacing yellow-green Hizb flags and all will start going in the right way...inshalla.

Moriarty said...

I just wanted to say that, as an Israeli, and during the days of the war I was reading this blog. I felt too ashamed to participate in the discussion since, from the very first days, I did not condone my government's retaliation. "Hizbullah started it", people would tell me, "Hizbullah is bad and should be uprooted", they would chant, and I agreed mostly, but I heartily refused to agree to the killing of ANY civilians. I argued with all and most of my friends, even the left-winged ones, I argued with my parents and university-collegues, I went to protests and silently agreed to be called a traitor, a dissident in times of crisis. I had vegetables thrown at me and people wished I'd be struck by those same katyushas, but I stood by my convictions. I'd like to think that without us shouting here, harsher methods would've been taken, more people would've been killed. It didn't help much, I am sorry.

Now I hear the Lebanese government is allowing Hizbullah to remain armed in the south, while releasing veiled statements that the Lebanese army will be the only armed force there. *sigh* My friends, my family and my collegues now throw this in my face, saying, "See? Their chosen government will not resolve this threat, their civilians are silently condoning it. How can you expect us to refrain from attacking Hizbullah ourselves, sometimes killing civilians in the process when they're the ones sheltering, physically and politically, our aggressors?" And honestly, I have no answer to give them.
I have no wish to see a weak or desolate Lebanon, I have no quarrel with you, I do not see you as "the enemy", and I would want some day to visit your country (the proud, vivid description I've read in this blog made me curious). If you wish to incorporate Hizbullah into the army ranks to make it stronger go right ahead. At least then, if it attacks, it will be the attack of a sovereign country. But allowing it to exist as a separate militia that does not follow the government's orders is a recipe for trouble. You, as citizens of Lebanon, have a responsibility to see that this stops, just as I, as an Israeli, do my best to make my government, my friends and my family realize that this is not the way. Because the next time this conflict happens (and we all know it will happen) you will be the ones to responsible for condoning Hizbullah's existence. I will not be able to plead for you.

My heart is with you. Best of luck,
N.

Loli said...

Moriarty,

Thanks for your fairness and your peaceful stance. We need more people like you. Most of us Lebanese want to see a strong, central government that controls all borders, and that is not defied by any militia.

Hopefully peace will prevail soon.

MAZe said...

el jeij is going to become a el jeish

Go jeish go

Ran said...

What a lovely picture. They look so human and real, don't they? Especially when you compare them to the marionettes marching Nazi style on Hizbullah parades...

raf* said...

dear doha,

lahoud never cared about a strong lebanese army. he has no personal ties to it - he was a navy officer, not army. but more importantly, he was put on the president's chair by syrian pressure and has ever since been nothing but a syrian puppet.

the recent cabinet "decisions" have already shown that the army will only be allowed to do what hizbollah lets them do. this is a policy sanctioned by the "president" and the collective feeling in lebanon that "ANYthing is better than civil war" which HA is using to hold the rest of country hostage.

i do hope that the army will be more than a symbolic force in the south. for this, they need training & new equipment. on the other hand, i also hope that the young soldiers will not be thrown into a situation where they may feel like they're confronting fellow lebanese.

however, HA will exploit every way and opportunity to keep their power, their weapons, their autonomous status.

in the end ... i feel like i'm hoping for a miracle.

--raf*

www.aqoul.com
levantese.blogspot.com

רוני said...

I don't think you're romanticising - the army's purpose is to protect its country against external threats (e.g. Israel, Syria) as well as INTERNAL. And that, my friend, is what we're talking about here...

Lebanon's main threat is from within - Hizballa. I don't think many people remember, but we've HAD an extremist group in Israel. It was called Kach. Israel declared it an illegal group, and it was banned and dispersed.

I really enjoy reading your posts, and I hope that your views reflect a growing opinion so that soon all of us could live peacfully side by side.

Omer (israeli) said...

רוני,
"Kach" was a terriost anti-Pl group. But they were small and therefore fightbale (how many were there 100,200,1000 ??).
HA has support of 30-40% of Lebanon. Its not the same case.

CMAR II said...

HA has support of 30-40% of Lebanon.

True. Lebanon's predictament is actually more difficult than Iraq's. In Iraq, even if every Sunni Arab were hostile toward the government and a supporter of the terrorists (not nearly the case), they would represent 20% of the population.

The Lebanese population is nearly evenly divided between those who swear fealty to the elected government and those who prefer Syria's and Iran's puppets, Hezbollah.
-

CMAR II said...

Doha,

I also am rooting for the patriotic Lebanese Army. Although, I am hearing things to the contrary right now, I look forward to them exercising their authority and duty to disarm Hezbollah.

Doha said...

raf,

Lahoud was a navy officer then after 1990 was promoted to the Army General position. Remember how the Constitution back in 1998 had to be changed to have a General become a President?

Annasru Ata said...

Lebanon's main threat isn't hizb its our neighbors mainly israel.

for now our army is being deployed in the south along with hizb(who are the citizins of the south with arms) so its not possible to remove these ppl to the other side of the litani river. but whats possible is their integration in the Lebanese army which will happen in my opinion sometime in the near future.
when that happens what would be the problem then?

Solomon2 said...

In my mind I believe that the worst thing we can do to is embroil the Army in politics. Soldiers have a mission and must fulfill it, it's the job of the Cabinet and Parliament represented by the people...

I can never forget how the Army took a nationalistic stand when they were ordered to stop protesters from heading to Beirut right before the March 14 mass demonstration and they instead allowed them to go through.


It is confusing, isn't it? Does a Lebanese soldier feel that it is his duty to obey orders or protect the people or something else? Let's see what happens.

Al said...

I love the army that offered 50 of its soldiers in the June attacks. For all of you Israelis, you hit our army bases killing 40 at one time, and then lastly when a convoy of un-armed Lebanese internal security people you lied to us and struck them and killed 10.

Israelis including Omer, you have violated every military honor statement. Because there is no Honor when the Israeli army fights, you say you want the strong Lebanese army but you continue to hit us

All the Lebanese including the president, HN, and every person in HA is proud of the Lebanese army. We are afraid that if HA and the army have an agreement 'written or not' that Israel will retaliate and kill and destroy our army men.

Our Lebanese president was a brigadier general and the army chief of staff before taking power. I expect that general Suleiman also will become the president next time. We don’t need weaklings as presidents; we need strong and fair army men.

Israel in retrospect has always promoted army men to lead their militant nation with 3 years of military service for its men and women, to see how ridiculous Israel is, one of its demands in any cease fire is that Lebanon stops its military service. Dont you find that annoying.

Saa'd Haddad and Haddad are x-israeli aids, person they ran the SLA for Israel. At the time the headquarters of the Lebanese army was full of Israeli spies. Now :-) with the current president and army chief of stuff, there are only a few bad apples.

The current president is the only one that said NO both to Israel and the united states. Yes, saying No requires courage even if you knew that Israel can crush your army within 6 ours. But Our president stands strong with good Arab friends and a strong resistance, this is what we have and this is what we need.

For those who are hoping that the Lebanese army to clash with certain factions, i tell that every single person of the 4 Million Lebanese is an army person. I remember when i was little in 1984 when 8 Israelis came to search our house looking for a 'mokhareb'. Israel used to call the resistance destroyers, now they are called terrorist cos they propaganda machine realized that the word describing resistance has to be changed so that the west understands. Israeli army soldier asked my 6 year old brother to shake a plastic tube in fear of it being a weapon. He did that while the gun was pointed to my head and my mothers, and he asked me to translate. This is a cowardly army, we have heard your screams in the battle of the valley of tears when your mossad and military chiefs lied to you.

Lebanese Army is strong and determined and so is the resistance behind them.

I grew up a song of a Lebanese Army Officer, I was proud to embrace the flag as youngling, but what I am even proud of to see my army which has modest capabilities be side by side with the resistance that shall exist as long as there is a threat from all especially the friendly neighbor Israel or as we say in Arabic the yahood.

Omer (israeli) said...

Al,
"the resistance that shall exist as long as there is a threat from all especially the friendly neighbor Israel or as we say in Arabic the yahood"

Then you should you keep your resistance forever. Since Israel is here to stay. And hey, If you think that HA are the right guys to maintain peace, then go on ahead.

I understand your fears, just you might understand Israels fears. So thats why i think That Hezb should ultimitly become part of the Lebanese army. Lebanon is certinaly entitled to self defence. And if you can control and keep Hezb weapons in the same time, then why not?

Israel has no intrest in lebanon. Whatever you may think. Israel is in a stage where its trying to find a solution for the current occupation, and sure doesn't need another one. I'm sorry to hear about your six year old brother. And, yes, probelbly the soldiers were scared shit (mind you, young boys shoot guns and explode on buses in Israel).

But now, for six years we do not occupy any part of Lebanon (Sheba is debated as well). Yes we invaded with drones to spy on Hezb (which declared its intesions fully).

Talking about honor in battle: A few sqaud of Israeli soldiers were hit after passing by Hezb opperatives withch had conceled weapons, Mistaking them as civilians. The Hezb opened fire at the BACKS of Israeli soldiers. So i guess dirty fighting goes both ways.
Beasides i can tell you many stories of honorable action taken by soldiers (I know alot of them personaly). I'm also aware that some do not act this way on both sides. It goes the same with the PL's. Like an ex-army commander i know told me how he fought a PL holding a six year old kid (??!?!) as a human shield.

So, ya, war is dirty. Welcome to the reall world.


But i cannot but feel that you and I still want the same thing after all - peace.

raf* said...

dear al,

lahhoud has only said the things that his bosses in the qasr al-sha'b in damascus told him to.

when the war started he "evacuated" to faqra, while the lebanese government stayed in beirut.

as for your statement "Israel or as we say in Arabic the yahood" - that's pathetic. maybe you should read the papers - there IS actually a difference between "isra'iili" and "yahuud". you are close to being a racist here.

dear doha,

lahoud was a navy officer who was promoted to head the lebanese armed forces (which include army, navy, airforce [all 5 helicopters of them]). that's why you always see him wearing a navy uniform. my comment above was just a jibe, nothing more. but still, he doesn't have any emotional ties to ground forces ...

you can look up his official bio here:

http://www.presidency.gov.lb/president/biography/resume/resume.htm

ANYway ... it doesn't matter what rank he ever had. he IS a syrian stooge, and he was NEVER a leader, military or otherwise.

--raf*

Al said...

raf,
dont give me lessons in israeli history i know quite well the difference. but just like you dont make the difference betweek mokhareb and a lebanese person.

President Lahoud----------------
Sub Lieutenant in 1959
Lieutenant in 1962
Lieutenant Commander in 1969
Commander in 1974
Lieutenant in 1969
Captain in 1980
Rear Admiral in 1985
Vice Admiral, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces 28/11/1989

Omer (israeli) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
nip said...

Al,

It is funny that only the "Yahood" that you deslike so much were able to help Lebanon spread it's army in the south. If the last war didn't occur, do you trully believe that HB would accept any notion of such army movement?
The pride that you currently feel when you see your army moving south is partly a result of israeli sacrifice in civilians and soldiers wounded and dead. IF your PM Seniora was so able, then why didn't he execute up to now U.N resolution 1559 and moved his army to the south?
In regard to the regretfull event that you had when you were a child, you probably realize by now that war is ugly, and children were and are used cynically in war by terrorists. If you like I can send you pictures of small children used as suicide bombers.
The Lebanon army wasn't fomally participating in this war, but was more than happy to let HB use it's radar facilities to hit Israeli war ship. Don't pretend to be naive.
What bothers me the most in your description of HB as "resistance", is that this "resistance" goal (and they are saying it day and night) is the total destruction of Israel. You like to use the notion of "resistance" because its sounds poetic and noble. The hard facts is that HB is an Iranian backed terrorist organization with sole resistance is to the existance of Israel.

Aaron said...

The first is that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Lebanese territory 6 years ago to the international border recognised by the UN. What it received for this gesture was repeated rocket attacks every time Nasrulla was in a bad mood, and occasional kidnapping of soldiers. This time, Israel, as would any other country subject to attacks across its international border, decided it had had enough. The second pertinent fact is that exactly one year ago, Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza, forcibly evacuating some 8000 settlers. Similarly to what happened in Lebanon, this gesture was greeted by repeated Kassam rocket attacks into nearby towns. Thus you will understand that it is difficult to turn the other cheek and believe in the good will of man, which does not seem to exist in this neighbourhood. It would seem superfluous to remark that all the rocket attacks of Hisbullah are aimed at a civilan population. The debate on the very hard problems facing all of us who live in the Middle East are not helped by inaccurate and one-sided comments like this.

dany said...

Al,

For your info, Lahoud has been sunbathing either in Kaslik, Faqra or Yarzeh Club every single time the situation required his presence at the helm.
I will never forget seeing him, putting layer after layer of suntan lotion, and laughing loudly at thick jokes while the Lebanese army was conducting a dangerous operation in Denniyyeh against fundamentalist fighters. I saw him there at 10 AM, then I left and came back at 3PM, and he was still there, without a worry in the world while I had spent the day listening to news bulletins on the radio.
If this isn't courage and responsibility, then I don't know what is.

Chris from lebanon said...

al,

Well your beloved president will end his mandate soon and then, only then, we will have the well deserved opportunity to elect a true lebanese as president.

By all accounts, Lahoud is a syrian puppet and has no buisness to be president under a strong and sovreign lebanon.

As for hezb, the only option they have is to disarm. There will be no other choice but that if we want to salvage lebanon from going back to hell.

Weather you like it or not, the course is already set.

Omer (israeli) said...

aaron,
I'll remind you the failed attempt of HEZ to kidnapped soldier in 2005. They did manage to give a blow to Israeli outposts back then, thou.

Since 2000, it was no way a "peacful" border.

Random Ranter said...

If the mantra of the Lebanese army is not to disarm Hezbollah then all is for naught and Lebanon will find itself in a death spiral with HB in the center. They must go!

Loli said...

Dany and Chris,
Very well said. I totally agree.

Omer,
Thank you for being a voice of moderation.

Papa Ray said...

As an outsider and someone who doesn't understand much about this ongoing conflict, I have a question.

Why would a country send it's military into harms way under the control of one of the parties that is involved in this conflict?

A second question. If the Army suffers KIA and WIA because of this, who is to blame?

And why?

It is like the Mexican government sent their military to the American/Mexican border under the control of the drug and people smugglers. So then,if the American Border Patrol shoots one of the Mexican soldiers, who is to blame?

I just can't seem to understand this at all.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

anthonyb said...

Omer/Roni - make no mistake, Kach was disbanded and made illegal but they have many supporters and adherents still living in the West Bank.
It is always wise to know what you are dealing with internally and not to become complacent. That is the mistake the regular Lebanese made and we need to make sure we don't make the same mistake.

Omer (israeli) said...

Anthonyb,
Kach are racist. And I sure wasn't sad when there leader Rabbi chana was assinated in new york by the PL's. He had it comming.

I know his legaciy is still alive. Hopefuly the shabak is doing their work, and rid us of the likes of them.

z said...

To Al who know it all

Brief history for IDIOT who don’t know what is Balfour Declaration

When I was 6yrs old the come at night with guns at my home in Beirut

SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is your point? Only Israeli doing this????enough with your BS BIGOT

http://www.agsconsulting.com/articles/isrwhere.htm

Omer (israeli) said...

"Why would a country send it's military into harms way under the control of one of the parties that is involved in this conflict?"

Beats me. Its more like sucide in such an explosive situation. However an aggrement for cease fire would't have been met otherwise.

Itai said...

anthonyb and Omer (israeli)
1. Kach isn't and wasn't a terrorist organization. There wasn't even such an accusation so I don't know why present it as a fact. Name one trail, investegation or an alleged act of terrorism commited by Kach. Maybe you confuse them with "The temple mountain underground" (HaMachteret HaYehudit)

2. Kach was a vile racist political movement. It wasn't outlawed, it was disqualified from running to parliament in 1984 by the supreme court, on account of being racist and contradicting the democratic principals of the state of Israel.

The problem with hate ideologies like Kach, the Nazis and Hezbollah is that they first of all consume and destroy the societies that fall for them. They use democracy when it serves their interests but have no problem of eliminating it once it stands in their way. That's why the court and legislator make an exception to the rule and limit their democratic rights. If there's any hope for democracy in the Arab world they should learn this fast because Hamas and Hezbollah represent a grim prospect.

The Lebanese live in a lie if they think that they can burry the Hezbollah problem under the carpet, go back to Beirut's nightlife and hope that their young democracy can flourish without dealing with an armed fanatic element like Hezbollah in their parliament and government.

Loli said...

Itai,

Lebanese know that HA must be disarmed. There's no other solution.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Eran Tel-Aviv said...

The scenes of the armies deployment were very imprecieve and you could see how the people were excited to see their army for the first time in decades. The purpose of the army should be in the long run to protect the state from outside threats not only inside. I hope in a few years the Lebanese army will develope to be a real force that will really deter any interfearence in Lebanon's internal affairs. The example i have in mind is the Arab Legion - the jordanian army. It's small but effective and equiped with the latest western technology and its officers train in western military acadamies and history up till now has shown that it keeps the kingdom safe from any intrusions (Syria, Iraq). The Lebanese army good enjoy this status as well especially with the difficult terrain along the border with Syria which up till now was heaven to any contraband and arms smuggling you imaginable. It's high time the army succeed in closing this loophole and protecting Lebanon as it should have long ago

3li- said...

Talk about ganging up...

With the exception of a couple of comments, all posters here, Israeli and Lebanese alike, understand the problem and the solution from the same perspective:

1. HA must disarm
2. HA must disarm
3. HA must disarm

And all will be well in the neighborhood, and Jesus (or the Jewish Messiah, take your pick) will come.
Loli-I have to admit, out of all of them, I am the most disappointed in you. You claim you want peace, but all you is harp on HA to disarm. Again, why don't you say to Mr. warmonger Itai, one who proudly displays the IAF emblem, the same one that exacted mass violence against your country where they are still digging for entire families from under the rubble, that there's a wider problem here and that Israel needs to live up to its end of the bargain? No? You keep agreeing with your Israeli counterparts when the whole world, with the exception of Blair and Bush, have condemned Israel for its vicious violence and collective punishment against the Lebanese.

You are just not fair. In fact, I am starting to attribute ulterior motives to all your comments, and have a tough time taking you seriously anymore.

If rational people like you will not strike a balance and a perspective wide enough to be fair, just and practical, then the intransigence of the extremists will win the day.

Random Ranter said...

Here is some news from Michael Totten that should concern everyone in Lebanon and beyond...

http://michaeltotten.com/

Dimitry said...

Well, one has to hand it to Nasrallah's sense of humor. As a compromise, and out of deference to the Lebanese government, he agreed that HA would conceal its weapons. I guess that if some more pressure would be applied, he'll agree to tie a pink ribbon to each and every AK-47.


al-ghada - was is that you have against Lebanon's sovereignity?

Random Ranter said...

dimitry -

hasn't HB been 'concealing' their weapons all along? In the backyards and houses of innocent lebanese citizens? cowards!

ColdPhusion said...

Thank you Doha,

we all feel that way about our Lebanese Army.

Dimitry said...

random ranter -

No, what they meant is that they won't hang around all over the place with their Kalaches fully visible, but rather put them under the raincoat or something. It wasn't about the rockets.


Anyone here has friends or relatives in the LAF forces deployed in the south? That can know first hand about their attitude and the orders they recieve? Is there any hope they'll do something about HA, or we're doomed to have another round of this war in several years?

3li- said...

Dimitry-Huh?

Dimitry said...

al ghada

There's an armed force in Lebanon's soil that doesn't obey the Lebanese government, and I'm not talking about invading army that is already starting to retreat of a foreign army that is invited, will leave if asked to, and isn't authorizerd to do anything with it's weapons anyways.
This force contests Lebanese sovereignity by existing. Therefore, anyone who supports their continued existance as indepndent armed force is necceserily opposing Lebanese soverginity. This is nothing to do with Israel, Syria, US or the Moon. It is Lebanese question. It just so happends that those countries (well, except the Moon) have their interests aligned with either Lebanese soveriegnity or lack thereof.


So. You obviously oppose HA being disarmed or absorbed into the army now (not eventually - NOW). That means you don't value the Lebanese soverignity much. Why?

Annasru Ata said...

For many of the israelis who don't know much about Lebanese
Hizbullah and our army wont have problems at all. the reason is because as someone else said how he/she will never forget how the army rejected the governments orders and allowed the people to rally. after all its all abt the people. hizb and army are intertwined with army from the south who are glad that Hizb are their to protect their families. and vice versa.the only solution that would make the world happier is to integrate Hizb with our army and teach them all it needs to fend off israels threat.and that will happen as soon as the prisoner exchange happens and the rest of our land is given back. u all know we feel threatned by u and the same goes in the other direction. its a matter of trust and for me i can honestly say i will never TRUST an israeli leader. proof to that is dear old peretz who believe it or not was sort of a peace driven person who wanted israel/palestinian recognition(something we want too and which will be a launch pad to everlasting peace) and then he was assigned defense minister and then a monster was aroused. plz answer me how do i trust you and why would i. and i'm sure ur IDF poses a greater threat than Hizb.
it's a matter of time. why don't u give us time and be patient. we made us wait more than 20 years to leave the south we only have had 6 years embroiled with internal spite. i'm not saying wait an eternity like how u made us wait and still r keeping us waiting but atleaste a couple of months.

It's all abt trus and its a shame u'll never get to see Beirut and all our beautiful land and people. same goes to us. why well we can blame anyone really but its not untill u look at urself and fix ur internal problems first.
WE DO WANT PEACE. WE WANT TO LIVE TOO.

Dimitry said...

and that will happen as soon as the prisoner exchange happens and the rest of our land is given back.

Why wait?

Omer (israeli) said...

" plz answer me how do i trust you and why would i"

I really can't convince you. And i understand your fear. But i can only tell you that normal Israeli don't want war. Don't want to conquer or aggitate lebanon.

This time, thou, the provaction by HA (and it wasn't the first time since 2000), ppl said enoght is enoght. Its like a "no other option" war. HA want to destroy us, or at least thats how they are precived. They are armed and have the motivation and will to act.
They are also considered a tool by Iran to pressure us or even destroy us (In case of all out war with Iran, The HA will have a leading role). So thats for the Israeli side.

"WE DO WANT PEACE. WE WANT TO LIVE TOO."

So do we. So do we.
It might sound strange to you. But we don't want wars. We are tired of wars. We want to be a NORMAL country for once. Without so much hatred, blowing up buses, occupation, paranoia and such...

When i go abroad, and visit a peacfull country, i envy them.

CMAR II said...

WE DO WANT PEACE. WE WANT TO LIVE TOO.

As long as the Lebanese tolerate Hizb in their country, war will return. Because war is the goal and in the interest of Hizb.

So any Lebanese who wants tolerate Hizb, simply doesn't love peace enough.

Tough break. Since the Lebanese army will not disarm Hizb, and the international force probably won't either, war will return to Lebanon.

If that happens, then war is the the fare that the Lebanese have chosen, and they deserve to have their fill of it.

seeker said...

Annasru Ata,
Regardless of the issue of an armed militia that dances to foreign flute's and poses more threat to the Lebanses goverment than to Israel. I would like to understand how can you reconcile between your claim "I wan't peace too" and your support to a group that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I find myself at loss trying to understand the conflict.

sam of chayyah said...

To Omer
Peace is costy ma man, I mean
FIRST: you have give back some land the way Izzac Rabin was doing it.
"LAND FOR PIECE"
Olmert was leaving land without any arrangements and look what you had in Gaza.

Second: you have to have around your borders some international police and some military arrangements, the same way you have with egypt.( Certain amount of arms and military power with light vehicles of police type not attacking type)

THIRD: Give up all the prisoners, I am sure that 10,000 prisoneres with 350 less than 14 years old, are not all dangerous to the security of Israel.
FOURTH: Seek some internation arrangement that gives you security.
After evrybody gets what they want, nobody will have aligitimate reason to cry for war.

If this is achieved time will heal wounds among people.
But trying to achieve peace by using power will keep you hated forever. Opression and force bring hatred.Haven't you ever thought why you are hated by countries aroung you?.
Fair and Just peace is the only soution. war is just adding to the problem not solving it.

Omer (israeli) said...

Lets say Israel withdraws land, relase prisinors and so on.

How would YOU gaurntee they wouldn't attack again? Just because you say so? Well, they don't say so. In fact they say exactly the opposite.

So why should israel give land, to give Hezb a better position to bombs us from ?!?

The reason there is light forces on egyptian border is becasue THIER IS NO DANGER THERE. Seriusly, to me, your logic is upside down. Do you think we put alot of forces on a peacfull border? Lebanon borders since 2000 weren't.

If the Lebanese goverment had control of the south then Israeli can make a Treaty. Once their is a treaty, then Israel can be sure there will be no more hostility.

Dimitry said...

sam

Many Arabs, including Hamas and HA, think that Israel should be destoyed, and that Arabs have the right to all of its lands. Please explain how you propose to deal with them, because they will still feel they have legitimate reasons to cry for war.

Itai said...

sam of chayyah said: Peace is costy ma man, I mean
FIRST: you have give back some land the way Izzac Rabin was doing it.
"LAND FOR PIECE"

Your own words and a meaningful typo, it's not peace you want. It's piece after piece of land.

Your attitude and the fact that many Israeli accept it is part of the problem. Why do you think Israel should "pay" you for peace? Maybe the Arabs should "pay" Israel to get peace? The way I see it, this last war cost you more than it did Israel. Peace is free if you want it. Hatred is the problem of the hater, you can nourish your hatred for hundreds of years it won't solve your problems. I don't hear any peace activists in the west and in Israel pose conditions and threat to use violence in case they don't get what they want. So it's not really peace you are after, peace is just a mean to an end to you and that end is very clear on Hamas and Hezbollah covenants.

Annasru Ata said...

its the same issue isn't it. just as u want to prove to us u have no interest in our country we also have no interest in urs although u made it quite clear that hizb were formed to destroy u and not to remove u from our land. hizb never had weapons to fire into israel and when we fought fire with fire and u actually felt the heat and the war was not just in lebanon but for the first time spread to ur side of the border u have the right to defend urselves. yes israel exists but so should palestine. hizb have never done anything to the lebanese people bcs they are lebanes people. they are our rite to defend. why not wait well what if hizb become a force in the army now b4 the prisoner exchange then what garauntees will we get that u'll actually go thru with the exchange and not attck us again. 2 can play at this game. and as always i say its a matter of trust. we're not going to make the first step and u wouldnt want to do so.
what next.

Al said...

Papa Ray ........

The only reason that Mexico would do that if the international community wanted it to. Why would the international community ask that, its because of the total control of US over security council.

As for the others, the only lebanese who think that HA should disarm are the ones who are afraid its going to be used as political leverage.

As for the gents that want to elect a new president. Do you think the parliament that was elected using a syrian break down should be in effect when the president is chosen.

For the hopefull that HA will disarm, good, luck, Israel has proven over the years that they are not trust worthy on thier borders unless they are winning, A few months back they killed an egyptian soldier, words was sorry....

There is no point in linking HA and PL, issue. They have 2 different agendas .. and their support groups are totally different.

Its ironic to me that the strongest army in the world needs a bunch of lebanese politicians to implement his peace keeping. If i were an Israeli i would vote down my government. This is like syria communicating with Israel-for-peace political party to garantee that they are not attacked. :-)

The seperation and PR campaign that Israel is leading in lebanon simply wont work.

Arms will be taken when HA decides its the right time, HA will reserve the right for self defence. Because the next thing that i see israel will ask for after a peace treaty is the head of HN. we have seen it happen before.

As for the sail that was set, in arabic we say "Tajri Al-reyaho bema la tashtahi sofono" Winds may blow where ships dont want to go :-) sorry for stupid translation.

You have to remember the major scheme ME policy, Iran is holding the US by the throat in Iraq and Afganistan, they can unleash their armies in both countries some thing that the US can not afford.

I would have to re-evaluate what i am saying if they were able to create trouble for the Lion in Damas. that can only happen by an internal rebelion, some thing that the Massad has been keen at for years now.

I really cannt predict any thing , but i tell you, it wont be an easy ride for any one, especially the US.
cheers

Loli said...

Al-ghadab
I am for peace, and if I can't convince you of that, then I am sorry and I can't do anything about it. If you read all my comments, you will find that I am fair. If you choose to be selective and only retain my criticism of HA, then it's your problem.

My question is: why do you always get so upset about our wish to disarm HA? Is HA more important to you than our legitimate government and Lebanon? It seems to me you are always trying to defend HA at the expense of peace and soveiregnty. HA is the only faction that is armed in Lebanon. The only one that has always refused disarmement, and the only one that is targeted by Israel. Maybe there's a correlation, what do you say? Of course, if you don't want to see the obvious, what can I say?
You and I won't agree, because you are outraged by any criticism of HA, and I see HA as a threat to democracy and stability in Lebanon.

Maybe you and I should leave it at that.

Al said...

loli,
can u explain why do you see HA as a threat to democraxy and stability in lebanon please?

Omer (israeli) said...

Al,
I can't even belive you asked that question. Because Nasrallah is not elected. But he can decide on war or peace. If you like, put him up for elections. At least he'll be part of the political process.

As for armed faction. Why what? since when do countries have armed faction? But worse then that: they can't control these factions. Thus the central goverment loose power to HA who is already in the political process. HA gains twice:
1. Full control and power of his neibrhood and s.lebanon villages, militry power, an independent decision making act-like goverment.
2. They influnce the whole of lebanon throu the standered political process.

Sound like a classic state within a state.

As for me. Its your choice how you live, or what your country will look like. But from my side, the only issue that counts is security on my northern border.

Al said...

Thanks Omer, I was hoping the response comes from loli.....

....... Lebanese Army and HA have had 10 years of cooperation if you dont know it, its worked well.

HN, has representatives, for security reasons and if he wanted to be elected could be a minister, but each does what they are good at, he provides guidance and support and berri provides the political process of fusion.

The most important organization that runs almost independently from the state of israel are the massad, also are the Hashak. They have their own funding in addition to funding from the state of israel, they have used canadian passports to kill people in jordan, they execute assasinations, the obtain arms and their own funding, do you call them a state within a state.

And you have the soft army, i call them the fund raisers, that raise money from the US and CANADA. Do you know for example who is the biggest investor in Israel bonds? You have groups of organizations that are independent from the state of israel offering funding to the state, "Particular to building of settlements"

Now israelis have done a good job of marketing them selves, but what you wont be able to defy right now is the omni-prescence of lebanese and palestinians out side of arab states. :-)

Its a long discussion, but I am sure you will have some input on it.

Before i go i would like you to referesh my memory on the Zionest Militants in the 1930 that were armed. What where they called. How did israel get rid of them. You would save me from making a phone call :-)
cheers

Dimitry said...

Al

It's not a question of cooperation, it's a question of control. The Lebanese Government does not have monopoly over application of strength (in military-scale) in Lebanon - therefore it is not the sovereign. Mossad is under the control of Israeli government, and therefore it is not a state withint a state. Does Nasrallah and his rocket launchers recieve orders from Seniora?


Israel got rid of its militias (or rather, indepndent underground movements) by the simple merit of them all joining the armed forces and swearing alliegnce to the government the moment the latter was formed. Nobody was running around demanding to keep his weapons and threatening civil war unless it happened.
And don't anybody mentioned Altalena; Etzel was brought into fold despite Altalena rather than thanks to Altalena.



Annasru

In 2000, shortly after the retreat, HA crossed the border and kidnapped three soliders. What sparked the recent war was HA crossing the border, attacking IDF patrol and kidnapping two soliders. In between, HA quite often fired on Israeli military post and civilian towns and villages.
Well, at least, everybody assumes it was HA. HA also took responsibility. It might've been the little green people from Mars, and HA had really done nothing but build chess clubs in the last 6 years.

sam of chayyah said...

Ok Guys keep killing each other....
I don't believe that there's a problem in this world can't be solved by reason. I am not a security expert, I didn't say that we take ppls words at face value.
Anyway, I don't care what's gonna happen in ME, you can keep killing and hating. This is part of human nature. I am leaving fo UK soon, so I will enjoy listenning to the news about you and Arabs killing each other.

Akiva M said...

Omer,

Whether because of the Altalena or in spite of it, the statement made in the Altalena incident - that the state must have a monopoly on the use of force - is a powerful one, and appropos as well. You can also throw in the disarmament and disbanding of Lechi after Count Folke Bernadotte's assassination.

Gosudarynya said...

HA Rejects Syria

Okay HA haters, does this not say Hezbollah rejects Bashar al-Asad's rant the other day?

Are they not agreeing to Lebanese unity?

Correct me if I'm wrong, or direct me to an English version of this article.

Dimitry said...

sam

Let's say you're british PM in 38. Please explain to me how you solve the problem of the megalomanic Austrian chap "with reason". You all the hindsight you can get for full advantage.

nip said...

All,

It is a bit long but I think worth the reading.

HB is a front unit of Iran. They are accpeting orders as well as money and arms from Iran (and openly admits that). The lebanese people hope that HB will be inegrated into their army, believing that by this action they'll reach Lebanese unity as HB will start receiving orders from the Lebanese government and will also block all connections to Iran. Do you trully believe that Iran will accept this idea? do you trully think that Iran will give up it's most front unit in which they invested millions of dollars and just say "Thank you and may you all live in happiness and peace"? Iran is made up of fundamentalists with sole purpose is the destruction of Israel out of sheer religious hate. Iran support the HB because it's part of its master plan, not because of careness to Lebanon cause. Iran couldn't care less about Lebanon, as it offers nothing of value to Iran besides it's border with Israel.
Letting HB sit in your parliament and now be part of your army (as you so much desire), is the start of the end of Lebanon as you know it (just compare Iran in the 70th and today to Lebanon today and what might it will become in 10 years). Lebanese wake up!!! your fear of another civil war will bring you to the end of the free (western) lebanon as you love it today.
Iran doesn't stop at Lebanon. They use the other puppet state Syria for the same purpose as well. They take advantage of the inexperienced young Assad to promote the same concepts. Assad just announced that he is going to build a guerilla force like HB in Syria and also threatend Israel that he is going to take the Golan by force soon. Young Assad never led or participated in a war with Israel and so believes it is going to be similar as happened with HB. I don't want to get into this too much, but I can assure you that a war with Syria will look completely different.
Now imagine 2 years from now. Iran has nuclear power. It feels extremely strong and thus decides it is time to attack Israel with it's nuclear arsenal acting as a threat in the background. Iran will use it's own long range missiles and locally it will mobile Hamas, HB (or the whole Lebanese army if HB will gain enough control within it - as you currently desire) and Syria to commence this attack. It could be that Israel will be able to defend itself from these attacks or it may be that Israel will reach a point from which it has nothing to lose, and this point will mark the end of all of us, not just Israel.

This last war was a warning sign to Israel. Already Olmert gave up the idea of giving any land in the west bank back to the PL. He finally understands they are not ready and/or do not want peace with Israel. Many people in Israel understands that we need to shape our future and not let Iran, HB and Syria shape it for us as was the case with the last war, or it will be too late for Israel.
The lebanese people with the decisions they are making these days will set Lebanon future, and believe me by saying that here in Israel we are very much watching Lebanon decisions as it is closely related to Israel future and existance.

Al said...

Gosudarynya...

The article says that HA does not agree with naming March-14 an Israeli Ally. President Assad called them traitors and said that Israel needs the internal lebanese support. Assad or Lion in english in a speach said that Arabs are half men given thier complacent response.
bottom line HA does not believe in what Assad says 100%. Syria can afford to critisize lebanese politicians but the HA has to cooperate with other lebanese factions on day-to-day fation.

Al said...

nip....

thanks for the writing , it makes sense from an israeli perespective. Now given what you said, I think that israel wants to break this plan by disarming HA by supporting march-14 group. Israel stands incapable of disarming HA, and hence its resolving to US, UN resolutions, french influence,

June-12th war is the turning point in the history of israel, no longer shall israel be able to dictate what happens in the region. No longer shall israel play the arab differences.

Israel needs to come to the conclusion that its end will come from internal israeli conflicts. :-)

nip said...

Al,

Thanks for your comment. Maybe I'm looking at things from Israeli point of view, but you are seeing Israel from a Lebanese point of view.
Though unable to stop the Katyousha rockets and capture any leading HB leader (this was only a matter of time and acceptable fire power that Israel would be allowed to operate by western countries, and you may or may not believe to this notion), Israel was able to force HB to implement (at least a part) of U.N resolution 1559, and this is a big political win.
Israel does not dictate the rules for the region. If it was dictating then HB wouldn't become the heavily armed melitia they are currently. We wouldn't accept the continues terror by the PL and so on.
You probably don't understand Israeli political folklore, as you consider the current debate as internal Israeli conflict that will lead to Israel end. This way of debating was always the Israeli way. Back in 1973 at the end of "Yom Kipur" war, Israel was crushing the 3rd Egyptian armia, but still the mood in Israel was low (as we were taken by surprise and lost each day an amount of soldiers equivalent to the number of soldiers died in the whole July 12th war) and everyone debated and in Egypt the mood was high even though they lost the war. In Israel we move for utter happiness to complete blues quite quickly (apparently we can't see there is also something in between :-)), and this effect the way we debate and the language we use. But don't be mistaken, I consider our ability to openly debate everything a strong point of Israeli democracy.
At least in Israel we will try to resolve the problems we encountered, in Lebanon you are just waiting to see what will happen next.

Sherri said...

nip,

You state Israel does not dictate the rules for the region. I think a big part of the reason for hostilities in the region lies in the fact that Israel tries to dictate rules for the region.

Take the Israeli Palestinian issue, for example. Israel does not want to give up the land it occupies, so it is constantly undermining the Palestinians and destabilizing them. It wants to portray them as incompetent to govern, incapable to govern, and to label them all as terrorists.

You have it all wrong about the extent of the Iranian influence in Lebanon. Take some time to find the actual texts of Nasrallah's recent speeches and interviews. (July and August). You will find that Nasarallah is very much his own person and boss, he is very passionate about Lebanon, and his clear consistent statements of Hezbullah's primary goals is the resistance to Israeli aggression against Lebanon and Israeli occupation of Lebanese land. This is the very reason Hezbullah was created, from the outset.

What I find interesting is how difficult it was to actually find the full texts of the speeches and interviews. For a long time now, the newsreporting in the US has been biased. Now, the internet is beginning to be censored. Has anyone else noticed this?