Saturday, August 19, 2006

Hizballah burrying dead comrades


Politics, and personal issues, aside.... You've got to give it to them. They put up quite a fight!

231 comments:

1 – 200 of 231   Newer›   Newest»
mnuez said...

WTF?!?!?!?!!!!!!


Say it aint so.

Reports are coming in of Israel having conducting some aerial assault against Hezbollah.

If this is in fact true there are only two possibilities.

A) For some reason this assault was a necessary and fine idea (like what if we were destroying a suitcase nuke? or bombing from the left so as to distract the captors of our soldiers and then grab them to safety from the right?). Of course the odds of this are about 1 in 1000.

B) EHUD OLMERT IS AN EVIL GODDAMNED SON OF A BITCH!!!!!!!

Yeah, maybe this was technically legal by the UN agreement (or not) but that makes no difference at all. If in fact what's being reported as an IDF assault is true, and it's nothing more than the same type of assaults that Israel conducted uselessly for a month, then it's ridiculous and insane to do this. It accomplishes nothing good and a tremendous amount of evil in the eyes of the world and makes Israel look so bad so as to be almost unjustifiable by her friends. It gives Hizballah and Syria and Iran the opportunity to look like they're "responding" and ---- oh fuck. it's just sick.

And WHY exactly would shit-head Olmert do such a thing? Cynical, lying, careerist, father-of-draftdodgers, selfish Olmert? Because right now everyone in Israel wants his head. They want him out of the prime minister's chair yesterday and preferably in prison. And so he needs some sort of distraction. He needs to create a crisis, recreate a war. What a bastard!

Now don't get me wrong. If Menachem Begin were to come back from the dead (as the man that he was bfeore his wife took ill and died - say, as he was in his thirties) and declared a war unto victory against Hezbollah, I would support it wholeheartedly and would be honored to serve under him in that war. Getting rid of Nazis is always a fine thing to do. But Olmert isn't getting rid of anything!! If in fact these reports of an unprovoked Israeli attack are true then it's nothing but Olmert and Peretz trying to retain the honor and power that they now have. They're not killing the rabid dog but kicking it so that it'll come after the schoolchildren and they can get a lot of press by then fighting said dog and "protecting" the children.

I hate measly politicians so much. I so so so so so hate them. Careerist politicians are the lowest of the low and should be jailed for their efforts.

(If in fact, etc. etc. . .) then God Damn Olmert.

mnuez said...

Oops.

Owing to some unaccepted HTML, when I deleted and re-copied my comment here, the beginning went missing.

It's important though.

Here's the preamble:



If you'd say the same for any ole bunch of folk who purposely bomb civilians (and only civilians - did I mention purposely?) just because they're outnumbered then I guess you could say it here too. Oh, and just for a bit of a reality check, - Israel wasn't defeated by their inability to be too strong but by their inability to be weak enough. Had Israel have wanted to destroy Hizballaha regardless of the cost to (non-Israeli) innocents, we could have nuked the whole country. Israel was defeated by not being able to precisely kill all the Hizballah assholes without killing too many other people - something, I might add, that no other army in history ever gave a shit about.

Israel was defeated by its own morality.

That said...

JoseyWales said...

mnuez,

Relevance? Next time why not post your whole blog in the comment section?

Raja,

I'll give you that they are deluded fascists. We'll never get rid of them as long as non-HA people keep apologizing for them:

"Yes but they fought", "yes but they are paying people's rent" etc.

They are, and have been, taking the country to totalitarian HELL.

Al said...

Any differece between fascism and zionism :-)

as for the well planned Israeli troops who came hiding in lebanese cloths :-) you loosers you think HA is asleep so you will come and walk right through it :-)

this is the first time in a long time that svadric is in the lead (Ameer Perez) may be its time for him to go

NassurDinHoga said...

Weird, I feel nothing whatching the pictures of funerals. I guess I'm not a humanist after all. I don't understand what motivation had they to sacrifice thier lives; do they feel like I do when called to reserves, that I'm risking myself to protect my country and my home? Are they "like me"? Do they feel, like I do, that they fight because there is no other choise left?


al, I'm not so familiar with definition of fascism; I take it that "zionism" is the idea that Jews should have a home in which they are free (I'm sure Wiki has its own war of words on this word). For me it is the bridge connecting the Jewish religion to my "Israelity".

Chas said...

Raja,
Yes they did.
I am just following the news of the Israeli commando raid in clear violation of the ceasefire.
I swear to god if there was an international stupid prize you guys (Israel) would win it hands down! Exactly how much damage is Olmert prepared to do in an attempt to save his career from going down the toilet?

O wait, there is such a prize! You get to live in an embattled country, surrounded by enemies, where the military increasingly controls the agenda and oppression and violence are universally regarded as legitimate politics. You get to teach your children how to dialogue with their neighbours by writing messages on bombs, how to justify injustice and diguise inhumanity as the protection of human rights.
Congratulations!

I was and continue to be deeply worried about Lebanon's fate, but at the moment, unless there is a change of appoach it is Israel's future that is causing me most concern.

Peace

Chas

The Middle East News Addict said...

Only now will we start seeing how many Lebanese of the claimed 900 lives lost in Lebanon were Hezbollah. Hezbollah claimed 2-3 IDF claims 200. So far numbers seem to gravitate to IDF numbers

francois said...

to make the story short, Hezbollah said 70 of their fighters died during the conflict.

Chris from lebanon said...

Raja,

I don't call hiding among civilians and children is puting up a fight.

You should say, lebanese civilians unwillingly put up a fight for hezbollah and they paid a huge price for it.

As for Nasrallah, he was hiding in the iranian embassy. I call that acting like a pussy.

Chas said...

News addict,
and your point is?
If "only" 700 or 600 or 400 civilians died then it is somehow ok?
I detest this type of score-keeping. How many died on each side? The answer is very simple - Too many! way too many!

Peace

Chas

NassurDinHoga said...

*Correcting myself*

"I take it that "zionism" is the idea that Jews should have a national home in which they are free, and that this home should be built in the land of Israel".

burzum-ishi said...

Politics, and personal issues, aside.... You've got to give it to them. They put up quite a fight!

No kidding. Al Qaeda and Hamas have quite a bit of catching up to do if they want to be able to meet HA's standards of hiding behind women and children.

Al said...

chris,.....

you suggest that Jajaa hiding in arz is a cowardly act... :-) and who told you that nassrala was in the iranian embassy, the israeli army :-0

cut it out...

As if you dont know what g. war is, go open the books and read their tactics. But your statmenst seam to be directly cut out from newsclip.

These civilians that stayed chose to stay because staying is defiance. So if you say that they deserve it.

That is fine, no one is asking any one from sympathy.... We definitly dont.

Do you know how much fire power did israel used, yea HA may have suffered south of 200 martyrs.

DO you call these souls a waste, are you happy that israel killed them tell me?

Tell me if their reward for their fight do you want to take away their arms......

Your leaders, are all more intellegent that you are, including Aoun and Jaaja.

But your talk eminates from ignorance and knowledge of your south, any lebanese patriot would have friends that may have opposing oppenions.

being lebanese is not about hanging in with your group of friends and going to Brumana or mono parties to drink up Devil Martinis,
blue lagoons, and Strawbary Dakeries :-)

Being lebanese is not about classifying restaurents between 1st, 2nd, and muslim class :-) do you do that with your friends, be honest.

Infront of the world and the israelis that are listening here, do you think that lebanese christinas are more 'Martabeen' than muslims,
do you think that lebanon is for you and no other.

Let me in of your view of lebanon.... is it one that lives in peace or surrenduring to the israelis, i would like to know....

finally its treason to say i have a peace of land that i dont care about, read your 'tarbiya wataniya book' it may remind you what that means.

Or do you think that Fakra is better than shib3a farms? hehehe i would like an honest answer..


Israelis and suporters please dont answer this post, i am not interested and dont harp on my questions. :-) you have other battles to fighr especially your failing comandos raid today hehehe..

Al said...

For all Massa, Zionests, and Israelis on this site,,,,,

there are a few questions that you never answer, at least not quite answer...

- what is a semite

- what is zionism

- what is the land of israel

- are you really suprimist given that you are chosen


LOL

Don Cox said...

"what is a semite- what is zionism - what is the land of israel"___You will find the answers to these questions in Paul Johnson's excellent book "History of the Jews". The author is not himself a Jew, and he takes a neutral stance.

NassurDinHoga said...

Personally, I don't answer those questions here because I think it's irrelevant. This is a Lebanese blog and I try to respect that.
Those questions are often considered in forums discussing Israeli identity (well, except the 4th one which is completely stupid). Learn some Hebrew et bienvenu.

Your discussion with Chris is way more interesting. We may actually learn something there.

Chris from lebanon said...

Al,

I was wondering if i should answer your so called post. You seem to be very excited and narrow minded.

The last thing we need here in lebanon is someone like you dictating how we should conduct our life. Brumana, Zahlé and the rest are part of lebanon and they are great places to visit and to party in.

If your looking for war, then come down here, 1 ticket to the south, and there you fight it out until who knows what..

Hurry up because its a window of opportunity that will close very soon. You know why?..because we the cedar revolution will be making damn sure that neither Hezb or any other group will be above the law in the futur.

Lebanon will be back on its feet, freed from any fanatism or hatred. I don't know about you but i was raised in a lebanese family that tought me love, peace, tolerance, pride and freedom.

These values don't seem to score much with you, so please, stay where you are: WE DON'T NEED YOU AROUND HERE.
soon, can let it all out and fight all

Chris from lebanon said...

al,

Furthermore, your concept of surrendering to israelis is the result of a thourough brain wash that was inflected upon you by hatred and propaganda.

I have no quarrel with Israel. As far as i'm concerned, and most lebanese think so, they have the right to exist just like any other nation in this world.

Do i approve of they way they conducted the war?: absolutely not.

Do i put the blame on them?: Absolutely not.

The blame lies only on us collectively. Hezb is the visible sign of our weakness now a days. It is most urgent that we disarm them and restore order and democracy over our land.

Negotiating for a peace of land and the return of a bunch of criminals is only a state issue. IT IS NOT A MILITIA THAT DECIDES THESE THINGS.

Finaly, do i want to live in peace?: I say it is time to live leacefuly with all our neighbors..without exceptions.

Chris from lebanon said...

Hezbollah presence in lebanon as a militia is counter productive for peace and prosperity of lebanon and the lebanese people.

We lebanese are raised learning science and buisness in schools. We don't adhere to any doctrine calling for war.

All we look for is to do buisness, promote tourism, freedom of speech and a fruitful social life.

A common thing units us despite our religious differences is our love and pride towards our country. Yet, we are fundamentally peaceful and easy going people.

Therefore, it is abvious that deep inside each and every one of us, waging wars and proclaiming attacks and justice by force IS NOT WHO WE ARE.

Hezbollah will never make it thru time because of that. If they, meaning the leaders, truely love lebanon, then they must disarm. Otherwise, their support even among the shia will fade away and subside because of our human nature.

Chris from lebanon said...

And al,

Our way of life and our love for life and peace is what makes some of the arab countries envy us and wish our destruction.

Our success despite our various religious backgrounds is a constant reminder of their failure.

Our tolerance towards differences is the very key factor they use, to stage wars and defend their causes on our territories.

It is not only our country they wish to destroy. Every time a lebanese house is destroyed or an innocent life is taken in lebanon, it is one more reason for them to justify their regime to their people.

It is our own souls and pride they wish to crush

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Chris from lebanon said...

for those of you who doubt the where abouts of Nasrallah during the war: It is the lebanese secrity forces who confirmed, right after the cease fire, that Nasrallah spent most of the conflict at the iranian embassy.

They claimed it was for his own safety giving the IDF accurate intelligence and subsequent bombing of his presumed hiding places.

Like i said, his troops hid behind civilians and he dug a hole at the iranian embassy making him the biggest pussy in entire lebanon.

Chris from lebanon said...

As for those of you who claim that Hezb put up a fight, i say there no glory or reward launching rockets from civilian neighborhood and aimed at civilians on the other side of the border.

Hezb war tactics can be summed up in the follwing words: A SHOT IN THE DARK tactic.

Dimitry said...

chris

For the sake of both Lebanon and Israel, I hope the policy you advocate would indeed be implemented. I truly do.

Lebnese Liona said...

chris from isreal i mean lebanon oh i am not sure where you are from but you aint from lebanon,


anyway dickhead, did u watch aljeezera today?

they showed how the resistance through smart planning and patience smoked the IDF who were not prepared and not trianed for this.


you tell me did they put up a fight?

ANYWAY, thats not the point , the point is that HB is not going to disarm thru force and the more failed commando attempts the IDF tries , the worse its gonna get for them.

By the way hint hint IDF, you suck at commando operations its time to stop them and save your innocent soldiers who DONT WANT TO FIGHT!!!!

NassurDinHoga said...

It's really worrying that you take "your soldiers who DONT WANT TO FIGHT!!!!" as some kind of an insult.

Lebnese Liona said...

I dont ,

I am very upset over Isreal breaking the cease fire.

And I am trying to send the message that there is NO NEED FOR THIS AT ALL!!!

The issue with HB being armed has to run its course and the longer the IDF tries to fight the HB the longer it will take for them to disarm.

thats all I am trying to say although I was very emotional when I wrote that post, but please forgive me I truly believed in the sease fire and it looks like the IDF could care less about it.

By the way I heard the IDF foreign minister excuse that the reason they did this operation was to stop illegal arms, guess what!!!

the town they hit was over 30 km from the syrain border !!!

I mean come on!!!!!!!!

How much sadder is this gonna get?

Andrey said...

liona, IDF brought 2 HA men back from the operation, so you can't realy call it failed (although no one knows what were the aims). The point is - no body is telling true all the time, you have to check everything. Remember how you told that IDF took lebanese soldiers as hostages in Marj-Ayun?

Lebnese Liona said...

andrey,

not sure what news you are reading , but JP and harratz, CNN and aljeezera none of them support your claim!!

there is a report that 3 HB figters have died which has not been confirmed.

what has been confirmed by everyone including the IDF is that a Lt. Col. of the IDF ws killed and 2 IDF commandos were seriously hurt and the HB leader that they were after was not in the town.

So like I said you tell me one omore time about the success of this operation!!!

Lebnese Liona said...

correction,

one of the two injured in the fight has also died according to haraatz and JP, and he is a ST. SGT.

FORGIVE ME FOR MY INACURACY IN THE EARLIER POST

Al said...

chris,

Answer my questions, please, as far as I am concerned, if the country who made your country loose 9Billion dollars in 1 day and has wages 2 wars against your country is to be placed in the friendship, i call that serious problem with you.

I need not fight for others have that job, my job is talk to people like you, who cannt tell their grandmother from goladmier. Listen evern your leaders have changed their mindset, get out of the 1980s its the 2006.

Its the time where Jaaja and junblat gets orders from Saad Harriri,
Its the time where Amin Jmayel has less than 500 supporters,
Where Jaaja calls for peacefull solutions,
Where General Aoun is a syrian Ally :-)
Where the Lebanese president chears for HA. does that bother you too, tell me
Its the time where Walid Junblat defends christian interests where he killed and migrated the most number of christians.

its not the time where you belove israel cos of the devine relationship. Its the time for you to wake up, stop throwing stones because you are not without sins.

Al said...

liona,

in the past history and honrouable soldier would get off his horse to fight sword to sword .

Even if they killed 10 HA, they lost, they have the military power advantage, not to be denied.

Lebnese Liona said...

al,

WOW!!!!!!!!!

Andrey said...

liona,
about the kidnaping, they are now denying it http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3293123,00.html
and the injured soldier that died was injured in west bank.

Chas said...

Once again the Israeli military agenda is to undermine what should be a political process. This is, by now, a familiar tactic.
When is Israel going to wake up and regain civilian control over its military?
I don't know what it is going to take to make you realize that the path they are leading you down does not lead to peace and security for you or anyone else!

Peace

Chas

Chris from lebanon said...

Al,

You have no idea what you are talking about. We will make sure hezb will disarm and contrary to your wishful beleif, all the cedar revolution people are still united to make sure of that.

Lebanese Liona,

I honestly don't picture you writing a post, i see you barking it.

Both of you, its time you get yourselves a life.

Lebnese Liona said...

chris,

same to you mate!!!

Chris from lebanon said...

lebnese liona,

Your type are better off digging themselves a hole in some cave with Nassrallah pictures decorating it and there you can spend all the time you want to worship your hero.

At the same time, we will be concentrating our efforts here in disarming Hezb and making sure that we live peacefuly with all our neighbours.

Or if you like, go tatoo your body with the list of all the arab causes along with their frustrations and hatred, (mind you i don't know if you'll have enough skin) and go parade before a mirror all day. There maybe wou'll feel better.

We will still be making sure Hezb will disarm so we can live peacefuly with all our neighbours.

Chas said...

Chris and Liona,
If you really are both from Lebanon grow up, get over yourselves and start a serious and respectful dialogue!
Your bickering is childish and is really the last thing your country needs right now.

Peace begins with dialogue

Chas

Al said...

chris,
Like HN said, you and israel and the world and the US and every single one of the so called cedar revolution, which is bunch of political gamblers , their bet is on israel.

Learn from Junblat he can forsee the future thats why he is sweet talks HA now.

But you are below that level I presume, but I will give you one more chance, to redeam your self..

We all make mistakes :-)

Chas said...

News.
UN has declared Israeli raid to be a breach of the ceasefire.
Source BBC world service.

nip said...

Breaking the cease fire according to U.N 1701,

Lets see...
1. Return the kidnapped soldiers. Don't make me laugh.
2. Disarm the HB. No. Even though that Lebanon government and HB agreed to this term last Saturday, when they accepted resolution 1701.
3. Remove HB from south lebanon. No. Even though that Lebanon government and HB agreed to this term last Saturday, when they accepted resolution 1701.
4. Israel withdraw from South Lebanon while Lebanon army moves in. Yes.
5. Enforce an embargo on arms supply to HB. No. And this was the purpose of the commando and limited airstrike yesterday. To stop a convoy of arms to HB.

I guess that Lebanon is "right" to accuse Israel of violating the cease fire, after all, Lebanon "held" their side of the deal. Even the French that led this cease fire agreement understood immediatly that there wasn't even a cease fire to begin with, just some resting time to rearm, rebuild and reunite HB forces. This is why the French said that will send only 200 soldiers, just to show solidarity. The last war was just the warmup, the real thing is just around the corner. I'm packing canned food and water, just to be on the safe side :-).

Lebanese liona,
If you regard one Israeli commando action that cost Israeli soldiers life - but the overall mission successful- out of hundreds commando missions done in the past month as Israeli commando overall failure, then it is clear how you claim that Lebanon is victorious in the war that just ended.
The difference in war philosophy (through the eyes of guerilla groups -like HB- around the world in all world conflicts) between Israel and HB is that Israel is considered the loser and HB the winner even if HB will remain with only a single fighter. As long as this fighter can wave the yellow flag, Israel lost.

Chris,
I enjoy reading that there is at least one Lebanese that considers peace with Israel, not as surrendering to Israel. I'm really trying to understand where this logic comes from, and why peace with us is considered one of the most humiliating things to do (like surrender). Maybe humiliation is the word that other Lebanese were trying to say (just guessing), not surrender. Making peace with Israel equals to perform an act of self humiliation. Am I saying anything of rational here? does all these years of brain wash against Israel led to the conclusion that anyone that attempts to make peace with Israel should be very very ashamed of himself?

Chas said...

Nip,
Just reporting the news.
As far as the raid goes it is yet another stupid move in a stupid war.
I repeat, when are Israeli's going to take their democracy back and start excercising political control over the military? When is the tail going to stop wagging the dog?

Peace

Chas

NassurDinHoga said...

chas,
"When is Israel going to wake up and regain civilian control over its military?"

Military operations are all being approved by cabinet. Comments regarding the consequances should address Israeli PM and Ministery of Defence. It's not like the army is breaking the (well, alleged I guess) ceasefire behind the back of the parlament.

nip said...

Chas,

War is stupid, I agree.
In Israel, every, I'll say it louder EVERY military action that is not part of already agreed upon action, needs approvement from the politicians. It is not like the army decided to just go ahead and fly to north Lebanon. Some members in the government where displayed with evidence of an arms convoy from Syria to Lebanon destined to HB. Now we can close our eyes and say, we didn't saw that, don't worry it will be O.K, those missils will rust in their hangers. We said just that in Israel for the past 6 years. Heck, we even believed in this concept. Boy how it blew up in our faces.

Chas, I wish all of us with nothing but peace. I'm sad to say that with every day passing without disarmanment of HB, or at least some sort of open resistance to HB, the window of opportunities is closing on the people of Lebanon and Israel.

Chas said...

Nip,
thanks for your reponse. Of course in theory and constitutionally the Military is subject to political control, however that does not seem to be what is happening in practise.
A weak and inexperienced PM was lead deep into an unwinnable war by misleading claims from the military that a quick and easy victory could be obtained.
Now the same PM, even further weakened is easily manipulated by the promise of some last minute, however minor, taste of victory.
I truly wish peace and security for Israel now and in the future .. Just saying, this is not the way.

Peace,

Chas

NassurDinHoga said...

chas,
we may debate your views (though some Israelis share them), but we cannot ignore the fact that this war was/is supported by the VAST magority of Israelis (including myself, following the "least of two evils" argument). Debates are commonly about the way it was put into practice.

Andrey said...

Here is an optimistic article, it was translated by babylon, so it's not really fluent.
-------------------------------
Vigilance and great alertness in the administration in Washington towards tuesday ' 22.8, the day in wich according to the Shiite tradition Allah appointed the prophet Mohammed to be his messenger, and according to the sunni tradition the prophet Mohammed rose to the heavens to the godly expedition from the temple mount in Jerusalem while he is a ridding on the horse flash el burak, ' the lightning ', and Jerusalem and the world was illuminated in entirety godly strong light. Our military intel. sources say that report had arrived to the American intelligence and are defined as ' from most reliable sources ', that the ruler of Iran Haitolla Ali Haminai received hasgot military intel. report which is written by one of main the military intel. analyzers in the council to the national iranian security, that on tuesday ' will coincide in Jerusalem mega attack, which in his words will kill Israelis, Arabs, and created quarrel. In the other words speaking on attack that will hurt also in the old city and in it's eastern neighborhoodss of Jerusalem. In
the administration is not origins from rule of possibility because huge attack can coincide also in the central western city differently. Our sources say that Israelis refuse to listen and take any preperations.
The military intel. iranian information talks on attack which want ' to obtain effect of the godly light ' that the took place in Jerusalem by the year of 632 the estimation of the Iranian intelligence, that she does not mark who the factor that will execute this attack, but she will not neglect the possibility that it will be unconventional attack , and as a result from attack like this Israel and United States will open immediately in the airy offensive and an offensive of missiles on Tehran and on main iranian cities, and on installations of the nucleus the Iranians. Because the Iranian leadership takes this information in seriosly, they ordered to start immediately on 18.8 the huge iranian maneuver named "Zolpagar sword" , in him participants 12 Iranian devisions, including very big forces of special forces and the Iranian airforce. Zolpagar , is the wonderful sword of the Imam Ali. The intention is to prepare the Iranian army to the israeli American offensive. The maneuver is planned so that in tuesday ', when if according to the information will occur Mega - attack, there will be the peak of the exercise in the capital Tehran, so that capital of Iran will be ready to promote face of the attack.
Our military intel. sources say that tuesday ' 22.8 is also the day of the delivery of the official answer of Iran to the package of incentives of the west for the sake of stopping its nuclear programs. A few months ago Iran informed that it will deliver its answer on day 22 in August and not previously. The European pressure is American in an attempt to advance the answer did not help. Dr Bernard Louis, of the greatest of the researchers of the Islam and the east in our generation determined recently, that there is a reason why Iran chose on this day to give her answer in the subject so fateful like her nuclear program, because this date is of enormous religious significance in the world of Islam. Iran has always combined religious symbolic with her political steps. Here is the accurate quotation from article of professor Bernard Louis:
On wall Street Gournal 8.8, that appeared under the caption ' August 22. Is it correct Iran preparing a surprise? (Beginning of quotation ) ' it's possible to see on the date this compatible day to her apocalyptic end of Israel and if needs also of the world. It's far from sure that Mister Ahmedinijad is preparing catastrofic events exactly on day 22 in August. But it is wise to take this as possibility' ( end of quotation )
According to the Shiite belief, 22 in August occurs this year on day that Allah discovered in front of Mohammed in the cave and heralded him that chose in him to be his prophet and to circulate his doctrine in the world. The holiday is called "mabath" and takes place in most of scattered shiite glory in Iran and other states in the middle East.
Since homeini came to power in Iran in 1977, Iran claims to besiege the leadership of rule on Moslems in the world, and therefore the American estimation is that on this day Iran would want to deliver the moslems the message of Irans progress and force.

-------- And it goes on and on....

chuck said...

the ones who lost in this war r both Israel and lebanon...

the only one winning here r the countries that were involved from the side. that is, iran, which gained the most of this war, syria, and the usa.

somthing else that was lost here r the ideas of freedom, democracy and liberalism.

do u realy think hisballa won over here in a fight for lebanon?

hisballa was prepered to fight till the last man, but hisballa man were hiding in bunkers dip underground, ready to stay there for a long time after the last lebanese civilian was killed.

there was something that was said during the war on the israeli side, and that is that u can't protect ur soldiers,trying to avoid casualties, while u'r rear is geting hurt.
the army is supposed to be the one having the casualties, not the back of the state, the civilians. the army is supposed to protect the civilians from geting hurt, and that means sending the troops to the front line , and thus sustaining casualties.

that was not the idea of hisballa.
hisballa has no respect for human lives, because it is a religiouse army that derives from the idea of sucrificing ur life (or u'r neighbours life) in order to earn u'r place in the after life.

lebanese people and lebanese casualties were merely a matter of public relations in the world. the more lebanese dead the better public relations against Israel.

hisballa would have, and will continue fighting long after the last lebanes civilian would have died.

unless hisballa is disarmed or at least cullapsed into the lines of the lebanese army, we will have another war in the next few years.

the bottom line is, hisballa needs to acknoledge the soveregnty of the lebanese government and not act as an independent army.
otherwise lebanon will never be a stable country and will never have a strong government.

u can say about hisballa that they r brave wariors, and that u wish to be a part of it or at least be patriotic and support it. but wouldn't u rather support a lebanese strong country with a strong country ?

these r my thoughts.

Annasru Ata said...

to al and liona: i really think its up to ppl like u to keep others(lebanese and foreigners)in check with what the other side in Lebanon believes. i wont go into majority minority issue bcs we'll have a dispute abt that especially with 14 march members. so lets say "small majority" will back any Lebanese group/people over backing the nation which killed our people and our country.
it's easy to get into our internal disputes. thats what israel wants. when we finish with them and their problems then we will all go to the table and talk and u can say whatever US wants u to say then. mish a7san min 7areb ahliyeh?

chuck said...

the last line was, having a strong lebanese country with a strong army.

Omer (israeli) said...

AL,
Well you asked:

Semite - Someone who talks a sematic langauge. That means arabs and jews, as well as some african (Etiopeans for instance). The Term "Anti-sematism" is mostly used to describe rasicm aginst jews. This is just an "agreed" concept. But if you want to apply it to racism aginst arabs, you are totaly in line.

Zionism - Can mostly someup in a phrase "To build a country for jews to live safe in". But the concept was fluid, and changed over the years. You can say zionism is simply patriotism. The "zionist" aggenda changes as we move .Today zionism mostly means to build our country from within. But even then, the term "zionism" itself takes less and less place in internal discourse.

Do we fell superior to others? Well i don't, and all of my friends dont belive so either. There however people who do think so. But this are mostly religious people (and not all of them). Israel is 70% secular.

I said this before and ill say it again: Olmert is a fool. The commando act, or anyother act (accept getting his act together) wont save his ass. He is a fool risking the cease-fire, and moreover its pointless.

Chas said...

Nas,
Fair point, but i believe it is part of the same process, whereby the possibility of political progress has been subsumed by an overwhelming belief by Israelis that the military will solve problems that are obviously political in nature. This belief has been encouraged over the last few years and is almost unchallenged.
Now, for the first time, that belief has suffered a major setback.
It is my hope that this will make, at least some people rethink these issues.
Unfortunately what seems to be happening is that many Israelis think the war failed because it was not fought with enough force. ie what was needed was more bombs, more troops, less restraint, more damage, more casualties etc.
Isn't any one considering that it may have been the strategy and not the tactics that were the problem?

Peace

Chas
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

chuck said...

by the way, u r talking about Israel breaking the cease fire,
hisballa is breaking the cease fire but i don't hear an argument about that. hisballa was supposed to lay down it's weapons, hisballa agreed to it by the cease fire terms and conditions. but sudenly they changed their mind.

and apparantly the rearming of hisballa continues as well, against cease fire terms and conditions.

why don't u talk about that ? is it so legitimate in u'r eyes ?

i'm against the attack of Israel in cease fire conditions, but i just can't stand the cinicism of hisballa, making an inocent face and proclaiming that Israel is breaking the cease fire conditions, while the break it non stop.

give me a break !

NassurDinHoga said...

chas,
Those who oppose the war should come up with an alternative.
The question has to be answered: How should have Israel protected its uiltra-obvious interests?

P.S - Maybe this conditional form is not the right one to use... it seems like we're only in chapter one here.
P.S 2 - I appreciate your familiarity with Israeli society, looks like you're investing some time reading our media :-)

CMAR II said...

mnuez,

Hizb says it won't disarm. The Lebanese government says it is "unreasonable" to expect their army to search for Hizb weapons to disarm them. The it is an open secret that NO member of an international force will enter Lebanon if it means fighting to disarm Hizb.

Therefore, the "ceasefire" is a farce. If Hizb doesn't want to be attacked, then they should turn their weapons over to the Lebanese government. Otherwise, they are international criminals. It is the Lebanese army's DUTY to disarm them, and if they won't, then it is the duty of the Israeli government (to its people) to do so.

Haven't enough people suffered and died for HA's backwards goals (especially the Lebanese)?
Die Hizballah, die!

kufir and proud said...

Only Israel is required to aspire to higher standards. They are the only side that any sane person might wage on actually acting within certain moral standards. Everyone knows Hezbollah does all these things. Everyone also knows that Hezbollah isn't about to stop doing any of these things. No amount of international outcry, threats of sanctions or war crime tribunals, or anything else will ever get them to do anything outside of what they and their backers decide. Israel however, is suseptible to international outcries, threats of sanctions, etc. That appears to be reason why so much "whining" about Israeli actions occurs, discounting standard Arab tactic of whining.

Chas said...

Nas,
I believe that war is always presented as the only option .. and in some cases it may be, in this case it was not.
What exactly Israel could have done depends a lot on how far back in history you are prepared to go.
If you limit it to the period of the war itself, there were opportunities for negotiation from the start.
If you go back before then I think the most telling period was after the Cedar revolution, when there was a real opportunity to support and help the Lebanese govt. It is doubtful that Israel could have done so directly, but they could have been highly influential in getting the international community to support the fledgling democracy in sted of beating them over the head with their failure to impliment a UN resolution, knowing perfectly well they lacked the political and military strength to do so. I do not think they lacked the will, just the means and Israel could have played a role in generating those means.

We could argue this back and forward, but I do not want to .. I want to look to the future.
As a lot of people have pointed out, either in triumph or in dismay it is unlikely that Hezbollah will be genuinely disarmed any time soon. Its existance as a political and potentially military force is something all parties are going to have to come to terms with. It seems that this war has put any possibility of dealing politically with Hez back by many years. But if Lebanons political and civil institutions survive such a solution is still possible.

Peace

Chas

Chas said...

Kufir,
Israel destroys a countries infrastructure, kills hundreds of civilians, brings their economy to its knees and elevates the biggest danger to democracy in that country to the status of mega-heroes.
How could they possibly have the audacity to whine when visited by such obviously "higher standards"? I guess some people just don't know how to be grateful!

Peace

Chas

chuck said...

al,

u try to show Israel as a racist country, and zionism as the new nazional socialism, and i't almost admirable how hard u try to do it.

pfff...calling zionism equal to fascism...come on...

show me one islamic country, or an arab country that treets it's citisens, no matter what religion, as equals, or a country with a majority of muslims without a muslim authority, and don't point me to lebanon becasue u can see right now what is going on and has been going on inside that country.

zionism talks about the return of the jewish people to the promissed land, the land of Israel.

it doesn't talk about enslaving arabs or driving arabs out of the country or into the mediteranean sea, or murdering all the world in order to turn it into a whole jewish world.
zionism is a movement that was formed in order to end the jewish peoples exile of decades.
it was strengthen because of the attacks made over the jewish comunities in europe, and ofcourse because of the holocaust.

- zionism talks about proclaiming Israel for the jewish people.
- zionism talks about encouraging education (which by the way, islamic countries usualy try to prohibit education or prevent educations from certain people).
- zionism talks about building a society based on social equality and justice for all.
- zionism talks about jewish solidarity and fighting antisemitism.
- zionism talks about building a deffence force against those who try to destroy the jewish people.
- zionism talks about making hebrew (the ancient biblical language of the hebrew people) a national language of the state of Israel.
- zionism talks about apmlifying the unity of the jewish people.
- zionism talks about developing the land of Israel, building economy and industry by bringing jewish engeeners and people of different proffecions.

in the war of independens in 1949, that started the day after the declaration of independens of the state of Israel, jews inside Israel, and the Israeli fighters that came inside arab villages, called for the arab population to remain in their villages and not to leave. because many arabs were afraid of the Israeli fighters, and they were afraid that the Israelies will massacre them.
many people remained in their homes and were not harmed, and u can see ako, haifa, and many other places where the arabs that left still live there and were not driven away.

zionism was not about driving the arabs away from the land, it was about living among the people of the land.

the problem of zionism was that the thinkers of this movement and those who implemented it in the 19th century didn't really apreciate the arab people that lived there and didn't give them to much attention. they were hoping that they would agree with the new jewish setelments and didn't consider that the arabs might establish an oposition. they belived that the arabs would apriciate the building of such a country because they will also benefit out of it.

so all of this "zionist protocols"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

and other shit that is being spread around (which starts with the blood libels in the middle ages, about jews,which were made by the christian church) is merely ways to justify the persecution of jewish people around the world. and it's working prety well too, sadly...

zionism indeed has many flaws. but show me one idology that doesnt.

maybe muslim religion is better ??
muslim religion is more liberal and belives in the right of other religions to live in peace without being destroyd and presecuted by fanatics who belive that the way to achieve their goals is by commiting suicide, while killing as many people as they can and achiving a place for them in heaven, beside 72 virgins, by doing so ??

it is written in the old testiment that u should not force u'r religion on otheres, and that "each man in his believe he will live".
and a famouse scholar of the bible and verry highly rated among jewish scholars as one of the greatest scholars of all times, Rabi Akiva, said that "u must love u'r neighbour as u love u'rself".

so please, don't come and say to me that zionism equals fascism.
u don't have to swallow everything that war mongers feed u.

chuck said...

i have an example for the zionistic fascist dictatorship of Israeli government:

when the 6 days war ended, and Israeli army conquered the temple mount, it was thought about what shell be done with it.
the temple mount, as most of u must know, is the jewish most sacred place in the whole world. this is the place where the holy of holiest of the jewish temple was.
Moshe Dayan, which was the defence minister at the time, knew the sensitivity of the site for muslims, being the 3rd most sacred place in the world, and eventualy the temple mount was delivered to the authority of the muslim waqf.
that means that the muslims have total control of the temple mount and Israel has verry little saying about what is going on over there.
jews, r not allowed to go in there by the decision of the muslim waqf, or if they do, they must be watched all the time, they must not wear any jewish religious clothing, and must not say any prayer at all inside the temple mount.
do u understand ?
this is the most sacred placed for jews in the whole world and jews r not allowed to say one sentence of prayer.

how is that for facsicm, ha ?

Chas said...

Chuck
Zionism confuses me. It seems to mean all things to all men. In the hands of a facist it is a facist ideology, in the hands of a pacifist it reinforces their idealist and inclusive beliefs .. just like a lot of belief systems really .. it is not so much the philosophy but the use it is put to that dictate what it really means.

If Zionism guides your feet on the path to peace and justice, then I salute it. The same for Islam or Christianity or any other belief.
If, on the other hand, it is used to justify war and destruction, then I denounce it as worthless.

The choice, it seems to me is in your heart, not in your religion.

Peace

Chas

Peace

Chas

Ariya said...

Chas said:

Kufir,
Israel destroys a countries infrastructure, kills hundreds of civilians, brings their economy to its knees and elevates the biggest danger to democracy in that country to the status of mega-heroes.
How could they possibly have the audacity to whine when visited by such obviously "higher standards"? I guess some people just don't know how to be grateful!

-------------------------------

But I thought Israel lost? I thought Hezbullah was in Lebanon to protect Lebanon! They aren't doing such a good job. The only thing they are doing is bringing this sort of thing to Lebanon. If Hezbullah ceased to exist, Israel and Lebanon would actually be friends.

You obviously forgot who started this whole mess in the first place. Tell me how it's helpful to Lebanon for being an Islamic militia's bitch? What good has it brought them?

Chas said...

Ariya,
Israel lost in its own terms. Lebanon lost because its society has been damaged. How permanent that loss is remains to be seen.
If Hez ceased to exist, without any physical loss to anyone Israel and Lebanon might well be friends. It is all the more a pity then that Israel's actions have delayed that day, probably by years.
Trying to say who started what and when in the middle east is a totally pointless excercise.

Peace

Chas

Gosudarynya said...

Chuck, please look up

VLADIMIR JABOTINSKY

Zionism seems like a lovely dream to some. Herzl sold it well and Ben-Gurion tempered it in a way few thought would last after all the attacks on the British.

Then there was Jabotinsky. Every Arab's nightmare and very much in evidence today.

Lebanese would do well to be armed with information on who has supported his positions - those ideas don't look to be dying any time soon.

Andrey said...

godudarinya ti bi luchshe posmotrela istoriyu poslednih 10-ti let, i agendu nineshnevo provitelstva

Akiva M said...

>>Semite - Someone who talks a sematic langauge. That means arabs and jews, as well as some african (Etiopeans for instance). The Term "Anti-sematism" is mostly used to describe rasicm aginst jews. This is just an "agreed" concept. But if you want to apply it to racism aginst arabs, you are totaly in line.<<

The term "anti-semitism" was coined in Europe, at a time when the jews were the only semitic people Europeans interacted with. The fact that there are other semitic people doesn't change the fact that "anti-semitism" is a term of art (a term with an acknowledged meaning that is different than its literal meaning) meaning "anti-jew"

Saying things like "I'm not an anti-semite because I like Arabs" is a lot like saying "I'm not anti-black, I own many black shirts"; it's a solipsitic, intellectually dishonest semantic game.

>>Do we fell superior to others? Well i don't, and all of my friends dont belive so either. There however people who do think so. But this are mostly religious people (and not all of them). Israel is 70% secular.<<

Religious jews (of which I'm one) do not feel superior to others. We may feel that we are acting correctly and others are not (the same way a christian might feel that failure to acknowledge Jesus is an incorrect action). But that isn't a "superior/inferior" issue, and the idea that it is is an anti-semitic slur that's been passed down through the centuries by the same folks who believe that Jews use blood to bake Matza and cite to the Protocols.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Chas

my point is that as long as this number worked for Hezbollah (i.e. more civilians) then you did not detest this kind of calculation.

Lebnese Liona said...

Omer,

thanks for saying that Omer's latest move is a stupid one!!

I just want this damn cease fire to hold!!!

No more death and destruction please!!!!

Omer (israeli) said...

Liona,
You must mean "Olmert latest move".
My latest move was to eat breakfest, and i don't think it was a stupid one :)

dunes said...

Lebnese Liona:
good luck do you really think HA is arming itslef to play games ?
get real.........

Annasru Ata said...

To Everyone:

Stop using the following excuses plz bcs we will reply to them so it will be very redundent and the argument will be going around in a loop.

1) "ur forgetting who started this war"
Its funny because i never thought there were many wars with israel. it was 1 and had time lapses so in reality when u ask such a question u'll answer israel started it when it invaded Lebanon in 1982 and refused to end it.

2)"HB fighetrs hide among civilians." this was brilliantly propagated thru the media. bravo with that. In all honesty, why did israel target these houses. well israel had and still have traitors/recruits who work with them and who where equiped in an example with a marker where they knew THE FAMILIES of HB lived i.e thei homes. they would draw an X and the jets would fire. its a reason that so many children women and elderly were killed. they knew that or believed that would make the fighters voulnrable but that only made them determined. what have they got to lose. Also israel knew they could never win it on the ground so they otpted to kill them (their families) by bombs.

3)"Israel are helping not to break the UN resolution by preventing the rearming of HB"
now this excuse is the newest one and i expect more to come. isnt the UN the one who should prevent rearming. who gives u the right. arent u also breaking the resolution. so frankly 2 wrongs never make a right. thats if we're believing ur little excuse. lets assume otherwise. why would israelis go to the baalbeck region to disarm? well if they coudnt do that in the south why would they be capable of this in the north? they wanted to kill/abduct a HB leader. why else would they go in by cars. but thanks to failed intellegance they failed(like the one in the first comandos of baalbeck in which they abducted 6 one was released but why did they take them listen to this bc one of them was named Hasan Nasrallah. but did that propagate this in the israeli media? ofcourse not what was said is that olmert was able to gain gr8 information from the vacant hospital. ofcourse we believe him he showed us a tape of a soldier opening a file cabinet similar to the one patients records are put in. Then they knew something we didnt that their intellegance was abismal.)
i say this again since last time no one replied to it: IF hizb work underground and "hide" in their bunkers then isn't it the most reasnable suggestion is that they get resupplied underground?

i say again to the Israelis here, u have to understand something that yes i dispise ur government and i am behind HB in our battle against ur government but that never means the killing of people of civilians. no matter what ur bombs have done to our kids,to our mothers, to our brothers and sisters it would never mean we wish or even think of accepting this horror to be done to ur families. i truly believe thats the difference between us. every israeli i saw on tv said we wre happy for ur deaths which is something unacceptable which u should propagate thru ur media. i have sung in recent protest hoe i hate olmert and how i think israel is a terrorist state and thats what we see it as , never the people but the government. if sharon wasn't in a coma would u think he would have done what olmert had done?
we're ll here to talk in a civilized manner. if ppl feel threatened by this then they can just leave.

anthonyb said...

annasru:

"i say again to the Israelis here, u have to understand something that yes i dispise ur government and i am behind HB in our battle against ur government but that never means the killing of people of civilians."

Then you'd better start hating HB, because their missiles were specially designed to kill civilians. Or don't Israeli civilians, children count?

Chas said...

News addict,
-sigh- let me try one last time to make my position clear. Every death, on both sides, in this conflict was a tragedy. The deaths of civilians, particularly children, again on both sides, more so.
There is no doubt that the IDF were responsible for the overwhelming majority of these deaths, but both sides were equeally prepared to inflict death and suffering on the innocent to further their war aims.
If you are still hung up on numbers I'll make you a deal, whatever number you come up with, I will agree .. and I will still say "too many! - way too many!"

Now, can we do as Annasru suggests and move on to constructive dialogue?


Peace

Chas
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

barroon said...

God belss thier souls . God bless thier remind ones

chuck said...

annasru ata,

i can't realy understand what u want.

what do u mean there was only 1 war in lebanon ?
if u say that then u don't understand what u r talking about.

there were a few invasions of Israel into lebanon in the past years, even before 1982, but they usualy were followed by a long periods of terrorist attacks that came from lebanon, and the main goals of these invasions were targeting the terrorist camps, and not taking over lebanon.

the 1982 invasion was ment to take out the terrorist camps and to get a security zone for the northern villages of Israel, that suffered the attacks and katyusha bombings from the lebanese side.
in 1983 there was supposed to be an agreement of cease fire between lebanon and Israel that included the withdrawl of Israeli forces to a security zone of 45 k'm from the north border with Israel, and the withdrawl of the syrian army and the deploment of UN forces. but the syrians didn't agree to withdraw their army and the agreement was broken. then also started the building of hisballa and the involvment of the syrians in lebanon.

although the agreement was broken Israel did withdraw to the international line, a one sided withdrawl, whithout lebanese involvment.

in 2000 Israel decided to withdraw again. that left no reason for hisballa to attack anymore, because Israel was out of lebanese land. but they still found reasons to attack, claiming the shabaa farms, and the "solidarity" with the palestinians. but those were merely reasons to continue the attack on Israel.

what i'm saying here is that Israel went into lebanon every time after a long periode of getting terrorist attacks sent from lebanese terrorist camps.

when one bee comes and stings u then u say it's u'r fault, and u try to stay away from the nest. when 2 more comes and stings u, then u r still blaming urself of being without the right suite against bees.
but when a few more comes into u'r house, that is supposed to be protected with a net on the windows and u'r doors ar closed, then u will go after the nest to eliminate it.

so please don't tell me it's Israel who started this, cause this discuusion will truly never end.

Lirun said...

raja

you disappoint me.. got to give what to them?!

is fighting and inciting destruction something that should be honoured?

i dont think so..

wishing peace on all of us.. and may it be meaningful and final..

lirun
of telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
there is no honour in war - only death

Annasru Ata said...

anthony:

my whole pt was dismissed by ur single sentance. thats exactly what i meant. u blame one side always and its hizb and u wish to make them target only civillians. ur media were shut out and weren't allowed to show the military bases hit. it was portrayed also how hizb killed arab israeli as something non arab israelis were proud of. (thats by cnn)
as we all know these rockets weren't accurate thats why many went astray into the sea and into homes. if they were so accurate and hizb murderers why not kill more?the whole pt of the rockets was to strike fear and from the big number of trauma cases and the pics we saw of grave fear and how the public view abt olmert changed dramtically in the final week it worked.
answer me honeslty: if hizb had not shot these rockets and nothing reached israel would u the ppl have cared abt us dieing? abt stopping the attack on our country? would u have cared. u would have continued living peacefully without fear just like during the first invasion. u didnt care to end so it didnt end.

chuck said...

u also said that u saw on tv Israeli people who say they r happy for the deaths of innocent people in lebanon.

i don't know one single person in my suroundings, family, friends, neighbours or co workers, who feel that way. and i'm from a town that was hit by katyusha rockets every single day of this war. a few rockets destroyd the houses of my neighbours, but they never felt any bad emotions against lebanese people, only against hisballa fighters.

it was actually a real blow to us all when it was known about the quana masacare, of 60 lebanese civilians that were killed (which later turned out to be 27 people) in the air strike, it really was a bad feeling for us, and i belive to the majority of Israelis.

u have to understand that in the Israeli army there is something called "the purity of the gun". it is an army law, a moral, u never shoot unless u'r life depends on it. u never shoot an unarmed person. u never shoot a harmless civilian.

the main idea is the sanctity of life. only god is allowed to take life, and u mustnt take life unless u'r life is at stake.

that is something u can't say about hisballa, as much as u may believe it is a brave army, they do believe in sacrificing u'r life and others in the name of the cause, for god.

chuck said...

anasru ata,

ho ppaaaaaaaaleas !! give me a break !!
do u honestly believe what u r saying ??

hisballa was firing those missiles only to strike fear ??

if u believe that u r eithera fool or u have been really missled.

do u realy fill a rockete head with thousands of bullets only to strike fear ??

and why didn't hisballa apologise when civilians were killed ? only when arab civilians were killed nasralla said "sorry, the missile wasn't aimed to hit arabs".

come on, don't insault our inteligence.

if hisballa didn't kidnapp the Israeli soldiers (killing a few more on the way) a month ago, and if hisballa wasn't firing these damn rockets all over the place then this whole stupid war wouldn't have started in the first place !!

tears for lebanon said...

chuck

"purity of the gun"??????

Can you explain the bombings of the ambulances and of the medics who drove these ambulances???

Please Chuck, your short term memory seems awfully impaired. Israel did not demonstrate 'morality' as you state the 'purity of the gun army law' mandates.

Omer (israeli) said...

annasru ra,

You need a corection.
First lebanon war: day 1, evrybody supported. Week 2: small protest against the war, end of week 3: 400000 people demonstrate against the war in jerusalem.

This war: 85-90% support to the begining to the end.

If anything the katyusha brought people to think that we MUST have a go on a full invasion, to elimnate the threat. Your katyushas did nothing to stop the war. Infact, its the main reason why it went on for so long.

chuck said...

tears for lebanon,

u might be surprised but it is an army moral.

but u do have people sometimes acting on themselves, u do have mistakes happen. u can't be accurate all the time. bad inetlligence about a certain car or a house, or a mistaken identity of a person.

it does happen, but it is deffenetly not an interest of the army to hit civilians, again, unlike hisballa or other terrorist organisations.

Neil Williams said...

See the first ever video from the Respect Supporters Blog(UK).

THE CHILDREN OF LEBANON - WE WILL REMEMBER THEM!
See it on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTdwHk2QS4

or live on the Respect Blog at:
http://respectuk.blogspot.com/


Neil Williams
Respect Blog

The Blog recommended by:
http://www.georgegalloway.com/

Chas said...

Hey Lirun )
welcome back!
I hope you and I do not fall out over this, but I have no problem in acknowledging that the Hezbollah fighters, those who directly engaged the IDF, not the ones who were busy lobbing rockets into N.Israel, fought with courage and tenacity.
This is not, in any way, an expression of support, just the acknowledgment of the obvious. (I think it would not be hard to find IDF soldiers who would agree) It is not a partisan issue.
But why on earth make such a statment at this time? Because Lebanese society is at risk of fracturing and it is important that the progressive forces do not alienate those supporters of Hezbollah who they may be able to win over in the future.
It is pretty clear to everyone that Hez is not going to be effectively disarmed any time soon so the best hope is for civil society in Lebanon to be restored and for the issue to return to the political realm. In time, much of the euphoria currently surrounding Hez will fade and a meaningful political solution can be worked out. This will not be a quick process.
I know this approach is detestable to many in Israel and Lebanon, but it has the benefit of regognizing the realities of the situation.

Peace

Chas

nip said...

All,

1. It is interesting for me to know the number of Lebanese in this forum that are currently residing in Lebanon, and their political view of the latest events. I've got a feeling that the majority of Lebanese in this forum that live in Lebanon, are pro HB, while the Lebanese that are anti HB live in other countries. Am I correct?
2. I just received a powerpoint presentation of Lebanon sigths. Lebanon is beautiful, no doubt about it. Even places like Tyre, Tripoli and others that in the news seems like terrorists camps is amazing. And the winter snow skiing opportunities, Wow, made me want to take out my skies out of the closet.

tears for lebanon said...

Chuck

You call the bombing of NINE Red Cross ambulances a mistake??? Are you kidding me?

Ok Chuck, for argument sake, let us say i would accept this coward and lame excuse,.......then will you please explain to me why Israel would not allow for assurances for safety to the clearly marked Red Cross ambulances to drive the roads 'after' this incident? In fact, Israel warned that the same could occur if the Red Cross ambulances would attempt to drive the roads again and warned them of their own risk. Hence, Red Cross workers did not disperse in time of need due to fear for their own lives.

Israel Moral huh? I don't think so.

Funny Chuck, according to you, Hez are terrorists and Israel is a nation of morality who 'just make mistakes' so please dismiss thier deadly massacres...certainly this could not be done intentionally, afterall there is a 'purity of gun law' against this.



P.S.
Aside from this, I want to thank all all the medics who put their own lives in danger in attempt to save another! You are sure to have a special place in heaven.

Fearless said...

I(mportant to read:

Lebanon: The Myth of Hezbollah's Victory
http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=6045
18/08/2006


Amir Taheri
was born in Iran and educated in Tehran, London and Paris. Between 1980 and 1984 he was Middle East editor for the London Sunday Times. Taheri has been a contributor to the International Herald Tribune since 1980. He has also written for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. Taheri has published nine books some of which have been translated into 20 languages, and In 1988 Publishers'' Weekly in New York chose his study of Islamist terrorism, "Holy Terror", as one of The Best Books of The Year. He has been a columnist Asharq Alawsat since 1987
Previous Articles
When Elephants Fight…
Lebanon: How Can a Ceasefire be Shaped?
Is the Oil Era Coming to an End?
Russia Returns As a Power: But What Will She Do?
The Proxy War
The Offspring of an Illusion at the G-8 Summit
Islam in Britain: A Year after the Terrorist Raid
Iraq: Will Al-Maliki's Peace Plan Work?
In the New Version of “the Great Game”, a Setback for Washington
What Bullets Cannot Win Ballots Can

Was it Tacitus who said, "Defeat is an orphan while victory has a thousand fathers"? Whoever said it, the dictum now applies to the latest war between Israel and Hezbollah.
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert boasted of a tactical victory, a day after the United Nations Security Council ordered a ceasefire. President George W Bush has also claimed another victory in his own global war against terrorism, without telling us how or why this was the case.

Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah went further by claiming "a strategic victory" which, taken literally, means that his movement is now in a position to crush not only Israel but also "Global Arrogance", i.e. the United States, in the near future.

A "strategic victory" comes when the initiative passes irrevocably into the hands of one side and against the other. Churchill spoke of "strategic victory" after Allied forces had landed in Normandy on 6 June 1944. Truman spoke of "strategic victory" after US planes had dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

By those standards, it is hard to see the basis for Nasrallah's claim.

Claims of victory have also been made on behalf of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the Islamic Republic and President Bashar al- Assad of Syria.

In Tehran, the foreign ministry spokesman asserted that Israel had suffered "total defeat", implying that Ahmadinejad's promise of "wiping the Jewish stain of shame off the map" was soon to be realised.

Some Western commentators have echoed that claim, pointing to what they see as an Iranian success against the United States in a proxy war. They believe that Tehran is now in a stronger position to face the diplomatic coalition led by the US on the issue of Iranian nuclear ambitions.

Also in Tehran, Ayatollah Ali- Akbar Mohtashami, the man who created the Lebanese branch of Hezbollah, claimed "victory", presumably for his own genius in setting up the

Shi'ite militia.

There have been even more bizarre claims of victory.

Political allies of Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora see the way the war ended as a victory for his government. None, however, takes the trouble of spelling out in what way this might be the case.

We have also had claims of victory on behalf of the United Nations, the rubber stamp used to bestow an appearance of legitimacy on the most hypocritical of compromises.

Beyond officialdom, debate about "who won" has raged in the Arab world and Israel, not to mention the Western media.

Some Arab writers have continued a long tradition of self-deception that represents every defeat as victory. Others, a new breed, have manifested acute symptoms of self-loathing. Like anti-American Americans who see every evil under the sun as a result of US machination, these anti-Arab Arabs are always ready to think the worst of their people and deny the Arabs any credit whatsoever. A similar situation can be observed in Israel where Jewish self-loathing seems to have a growing constituency.

The Western media have been divided across traditional party lines. Anti-American newspapers have hailed Hezbollah's victory while supporters of the Anglo-Saxon alliance have tried to portray Israel as the victor.

One British newspaper speaks of "a convincing victory" for Hezbollah while another claims that Israel "won by achieving most of its objectives."

When all is said and done, however, such claims and counter-claims are irrelevant. The reason that the protagonists know in the heart of their hearts, what the real situation is. Even those who are delusional genetically know, deep down, whether they have won or lost.

So, what is the ordinary citizen to think of all those claims and counter claims?

The first point that merits consideration is that the world today seldom allows war to do its job to the full.

War occurs when two or more adversaries realise that there are no other means of resolving a political conflict. The task of war is to help the adversaries discover each other's threshold of pain. Once one adversary is pushed to that threshold he would surrender, allowing the war to end with a clear winner and a clear loser.

Nowadays, however, war is not allowed to continue until that threshold of pain is discovered. In most cases, the so-called "international community", symbolised by the UN, intervenes to stop war before it has done its job. As a result, in the past five or six decades, the world has become full of inconclusive wars each of which has bred an even bigger conflict. The mini-war fought between Israel and Hezbollah is no exception.

It was the continuation of their earlier war in 1996, only on a grander scale. The "international community" did not allow the 1996 war to do its job to the full and come up with

a winner and a loser. The result was this latest war. This is exactly what has happened again, this time with the new UN-sponsored ceasefire. Because neither side was pushed to his threshold of pain, there is no winner and no loser. And, this is a recipe for a bigger war sooner or later.


Let us consider some questions?

Was Israel hurt enough to think of surrendering or at least to change its overall policy in the Middle East?

What about the United States? Has Bush been hurt enough to abandon his

"Greater Middle East" plans or, at least, stop pushing Iran's back to the wall on the nuclear issue?

Has the Islamic Republic been hurt enough to realise that it cannot challenge the American script for the Middle East through proxy wars?

Has Hezbollah been hurt enough to understand that it cannot offer the Lebanese Shi'ites long-term leadership by dragging them into what is essentially a duel between an aggressive US administration and a defiant Iranian leadership?

The answer to all the above questions is: no.

Israel could have continued to fight for many more months, if not years without its people thinking of running away from the Middle East. Also, Israel has the firepower to blast the whole of Lebanon out of existence had the war pushed it closer to its ultimate threshold of pain.


The US, too, was nowhere close reaching its threshold of pain, even in purely political terms.

Hezbollah could have continued to fight for many more months. Nasrallah's private army was firing an average of 80 missiles at Israel. At that rate, Hezbollah could have continued the missile attacks for at least six months before it ran of supplies. Even then its losses could have been easily made good with fresh supplies from Iran, enabling it, theoretically, to continue attacking Israeli civilian targets forever.


As for Iran, financing and arming Hezbollah represents a very small investment in a big confrontation. The Islamic Republic could keep Hezbollah, and many militias like it, alive for years.

While we cannot be certain who won in this mini-war we can be certain that none of the protagonists were pushed anywhere close to their respective thresholds of pain.

That, however, is not the case with the people of Lebanon who will have to pay the price of the conflicting claims of victory made by the various protagonists. They did come close to their threshold of pain and were clearly not prepared to see the war continue much longer.

That may well be the only good news to come out of this tragedy. Those who wish to plunge Lebanon in another war for whatever reason may have to think twice before they pull the trigger

nip said...

Tears for Lebanon,

Give me an FTP site an I'll uload you a video explaining why Israel suspects every Red cross ambulance.

tears for lebanon said...

Nip

You are very very very wrong. The lebanese living outside lebanon at this moment are very much NOT Anti-Hez.

The majority of us living elsewhere are very united with any and all Lebanese...no matter our religious differences or of what region of Lebanon we are from.

Fearless said...

Hizbullah pays with counterfiet dollars?
Now that Hezbullah has suddenly morphed into a philanthropic organization, we learn from this photograph that they are distributing approximately US$12,000 to the needy in areas destroyed by Israel. Of course, what is our intrepid photographer obviously not curious enough to know? Well, that Hezbullah has already been dinged for counterfeiting U.S. currency:

One of the most prominent and influential members of the Hizballah terrorist organization, along with two of his companies, was designated by the Treasury Department today under Executive Order 13224. Assad Ahmad Barakat has close ties with Hizballah leadership and has worked closely with numerous Islamic extremists and suspected Hizballah associates in South America's tri-border area (TBA), made up of Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina. . . .Ciudad del Este

Barakat has also been involved in a counterfeiting ring that distributes fake U.S. dollars and generates cash to fund Hizballah operations. As of early 2001, Barakat was one of two individuals reportedly in charge of distribution and sale of the counterfeit currency in the TBA.

Once again, it's left to the Blogosphere to ask the questions the media isn't interested in asking.

see:http://www.snappedshot.com/index.php?/archives/70-A-sudden-lack-of-context.html#

The NY Times reports that Hassan Nasrallah and Iran are using reconstruction efforts to quietly deepen their influence over Lebanon:

Nehme Y. Tohme, a member of Parliament from the anti-Syrian reform bloc and the country’s minister for the displaced, said he had been told by Hezbollah officials that when the shooting stopped, Iran would provide Hezbollah with an “unlimited budget” for reconstruction....
Hezbollah’s reputation as an efficient grass-roots social service network — as opposed to the Lebanese government, regarded by many here as sleek men in suits doing well — was in evidence everywhere. Young men with walkie-talkies and clipboards were in the battered Shiite neighborhoods on the southern edge of Bint Jbail, taking notes on the extent of the damage.




http://aawsat.com/english/default.asp



A Lebanese Hezbollah member counts US$ bills to give to residents of a suburb of Beirut who lost their houses during the month-long Israeli offensive on Lebanon, at a school in Bourj el-Barajneh, a southern suburb of Beirut, Lebanon, Aug. 18, 2006 (AP)
http://aawsat.com/english/images/2006/08/19/l23006056.jpg

nip said...

Tears for Lebanon,

I asked if my assumption is correct, I didn't conclude any judgement one way or another. My assumption is based on Lebanese people opinions I'm reading in this blog.
I also didn't mention anything about unity.
What about an FTP site? maybe a video showing militia armed men driving inside a red cross ambulance will provide a different angle to your one sided view of things.

Loli said...

Tears for Lebanon,

I am sorry to have to disagree with you on one point. I am with Lebanon and Lebanese sovereignty but I am against HA. This militia has always refused to disarm. Its reckless and selfish politics of hatred and power trip has given Israel and the US an excuse to wage war on Lebanon. Instead of reviewing its stance, HA escalated even more after the first few days of Israeli attacks. I remember when Amin Gemayel, then President of the Republic, gave a defiant speech against Syria, the very same evening Syria viciously bombed Beirut. Amin Gemayel had to backtrack to save Beirut from more destruction. I am not a supporter of Gemayel or anyone in particular. The point I am trying to make is: forget about who's right or wrong. Assess the situation before making irresponsible statements such as "Al mawtu li Israel" and provoking Israel with kidnapping and other. Israel was not occupying Lebanon anymore. So what's HA's excuse? Pls don't tell me the Farms. If the consequences are serious, be flexible for the good of your nation and human lives. Anyone who claims HA did that for the sake of Lebanon and to recover the Shebaa farms and the criminals imprisoned in Israel can't or won't see the fact that such demands are solely the business of the legitimate government. Or else, accept to live in a lawless country where a spiritual leader plays politics in total impunity and drags the region into war.
To those who believe that the US and Israel had this war planned anyway to weaken the rising fundamentalist and threatening movement, and I am one of those, pls bear in mind that HA gave them the perfect excuse to do so, and in so doing, proved to be extremely amateurish. Now the money is flowing and HA is compensating some of the financial loss in its community. Nice way to continue to buy a loyalty that will give them more political support.

I wrote more than I had planned to, but my main point was that I am totally against Nasrallah's dangerous and poor politics, and against US systematic use of force and politics of isolation and absence of dialogue. The more you isolate someone the more recalcitrant and hateful you make them.
HA has launched many terrorist attacks but now it has the support of most of the Shia population and therefore cannot be just attacked and isolated. Dialogue is essential. Peace will come later.

Still hoping our leaders will gain some wisdom from the latest war.

Last but not least, I join my voice to Tears for Lebanon to ask why the Red Cross and other such targets were hit. I find it hard to believe it was purely a mistake, but I won't make any judgements until the international investigations reach a conclusion in that respect. So far, such attacks has made Israel's case very weak in Lebanese and international public opinion.

Chas said...

Fearless,

Unfortunately it is the "myths" that write the history books.

No matter what the reality may be the myth of Hezbollah has been born and the myth of Israeli invicibility has died.

The whole world will have to learn to live with this new reality.

Peace

Chas

Chas said...

Sorry, meant to say ".. the myth of Hezbollah's victory..."

tears for lebanon said...

Nip

Thank you for your offer of viewing a video, however I respectfully decline. I have seen enough propaganda as it is. I will say that Israel may indeed believed that Hez were in ambulances, however, this can not discount that they were indeed wrong in that belief when the Red Cross workers emerged from their ambulances and required medical assistance themselves after being bombed.

I want to reiterate my belief that I do not support the deaths of innocent civilians (from either side). In addition, Although I do not believe Hez has done no wrong, I think that it is very wrong for others to claim that Israel's actions, disproportionate to say the least, were done with morality in mind.

I am a supporter of the lebanese government to display sovereignty over the entire land, however this does not mean Hez should be eiminated from the equation. In fact Hez is a part of the leb parliment, therefore your question as to whether the Lebanese are pro or anti Hez indicates to me whether we are for or against a sect of our own government, a sect of our population, hence my response for unity. Of course I realize that some may disagree with me and my assessment.

chuck said...

tears for lebanon,

what do u want me to tell u ??
i was not talking about these ambulances, i have no idea why those cars were bomb, maybe shooting those ambulances wasn't a mistake afterall, maybe they were using ambulances to deliver more rockets ? can u tell me that it isn't possible ?
hisballa will use anything they can to inflict damage and to do things that supports their goals, so can u say using ambulances for their objectives is not possible ??
they know that the Israeli army is not likley to attack ambulances so why not use it ?
maybe the army was tipped off that they were using these ambulances.

and don't give me that "cowardly act" shit ! it's a coward that builds his bunkers inside civilian houses and hides behind civilians while shooting !

and u call these people brave, then blame the Israelis for civilian casualties...

u r blinded by u'r support in hisballa. u r not looking for truth, u r looking for a way to show Israel is a terrorist country.
but u don't see people giving away candy in the streets of Tel-Aviv after the air strike in qana. do u ?
u don't see dancing in the street or burning flags of lebanon, syria and iran. do u ?

Annasru Ata said...

okay so ur killing were a mistake why can't hizb killings be a mistake.
from know on we use the same excuses.
so we can say Hizb started this because of fear of a supplying by america to ur country. we did that to prevent a future attack on lebanon. don't u find these ridiculous excuses. if not then we have every rite to use them. if u do then u'll finally hear what israel have been saying from the begining.
it's true that olmert's popularity was high but during the last couple of days it decreased to be less than 50%. if not then why do ur leaders face the axe.
oh and i'd say prob support for hizb is stronger to lebanese living outside but that doesnt mean inside its that less.

Chas said...

Chuck and Nip,
does it really matter wether some specific Israeli attack was justified or not? Overall, the death toll on civilians in this conflict was very high and the majority of those deaths were the result of IDF action. This is not to excuse or diminish the deaths of innocent civilians in N.Israel.

I have heard stories of Israelis cheering the deaths of Leb civilians but I have not seen or heard anything that makes me inclined to believe them. I accept your contention that Israel, as a whole, did not want or revel in the deaths of civilian Lebanese.

I also respect the fact that Israel did not indulge in flag burning or any other such behaviour.

Peace

Chas

tears for lebanon said...

Loli
If Hez had disarmed this past week, what would have happened when Israel violated the conditions of this current resolution 1701, when they air dropped cars and disguised themselves in civilian clothes and spoke in a Pali dialect?
It seems to me that both sides are unwilling to adhere to this resolution. I do believe that Hez are trying harder than Israel though, It is Israel that appears to be provoking these incidents at this time. It is making the case for Hez to disarm harder and harder.

Chuck
It appears to me that you are the one blinded by your beliefs of Israel as a peace loving nation that only causes mass destruction in retailation. If not, then your response would have been..."Israel did not follow the purity of gun law in regards to the ambulances".
Is it not possible that you are the one wrong in this instance...and not me?

Omer (israeli) said...

I do know even where to begin.

Israel has vast experiance in warfare. "Surgical" strikes, where never that surgical. When you bomb civilian areas, civilians are bound to get hit. No war is "clean". Every war Israel has casulties of "friendly fire". For instance an IAF plane mistakenly shooting at IDF troops. Think what you will, but this happens every war (not only the ones Israel had). If mistakes in such magnitude can happen, what left?
This may sound like a bad excuse. Take as you will. But anyway this is true.



civilian deaths: Bad intelligence or delibrate "mistakes"?

To say the truth. Non of us will ever know. Any army will try to "cover up" any possible way. I don't think that the "Head" leaders in the army and politicis really intended to hit civilians. Civilan death, could, like it had in the past, to end the war without the objectives achived (not that it did anyway). Its always possible a field commander or a single soldier will revert to war crimes for what ever twisted reasons. Were war crime commited in this war? Technicaly yes. But was it intended?
I guess you Lebanese have your own idea, and it doesn't really matter what i say. You might even think it doesn't matter. But for me its importent to know: was it done intesionaly or not?
HA did stock weapons and rockets in civilian houses (at least in s.lebanon where they were uncovered). In Bint jabil, A missile launcher was stocked right next to a mosque. A small ware-house was build supported by the wall of the mask, so virtualy only a wall seprated the prayers from the rocket launcher. But this does not not explain all of the targets targeted: refugees fleeing, syrian farmers, red cross and more. They might all be genuine mistakes, but they are horribale. Its hard to watch this things, knowing your country, for supposdly your well being, does a thing like that. So i just want some answers.

Omer (israeli) said...

HA did there very best to hit civilians. Luckily 4000 rockets "only" killed 38 people. But it also wounded above a thousand. Why? becasue every katyusha has thousands of ball-berings. From the blast they fly all over. It made holes in walls, cars and of course people. The rockets were set primarily to civilian targets. Thou some were clearly trying to hit stragic targets. But since the rockets aren't to accurate it makes it a lousy weapon aginst spacific targets. However sending them to a city, is quite a large target. The katyusha are bound to hit somewhere in the limits of the city. HA rockets are stragitcly better weapons on civilians then anyothere thing.

Chas said...

Omer,
Thank-you for giving an honest and human response to the issue of civilian casualties.
It cannot have been easy to lay bare your doubts in this situation.
It does you and your country much more credit than the un-ending string of excuses and justifications. You are an honourable person.

Peace

Chas
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

Loli said...

Tears of Lebanon,

I agree the commando operation was a clear violation to the UN resolution, but would you agree that HA has also violated 1701 by not disarming? they simply hid their weapons. Can't you see?

Omer,
I do care about you say. You're a voice of moderation and it's reassuring to know there are people in Israel who are willing to see both sides of the story.

Itai said...

You can convince yourselves of whatever you want but I think you can't ignore certain facts:
1. Hezbollah may be a Lebanese party but only in an insane lawless country like Lebanon a parliament party can carry arms. Not only do they carry arms they carry more artillery than the government. They have their own fortified neighbourhood in the state's capital. The elected PM is afraid of this terrorist organization leadership.
2. You can say that HZA hurts civilians by mistake but HZA themselves say it's on purpose. They deliberately target civilians, in fact they directed all their artillery at towns and cities with no military purpose in mind.
3. Hezbollah MP said a couple of days ago that the IDF dropped on Lebanon 5 times the firepower dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm not sure he's right but it might be somewhere in the area. Now those atom bombs yielded about 35 kilotons of TNT combined and killed around 200,000 people when dropped on Japanese cities. So according to HZA Israel dropped around 175 kilotons of TNT on Lebanese cities and villages which resulted in the deaths of 1,000 people. I think this can testify to the caution Israel took not to harm innocent civilians. Let's say Lebanon had the firepower Israel has, how many Israelis would have died from the hands of Hezbollah? A million? 2 million? We are all lucky that Israel is both the strong and moral side of this story.
4. As for the reason the bombs were dropped on urban areas in the first place: How do you have the nerve to blame this on Israel? Hezbollah militants march day and night in front of the cameras and describe how they fought from within the villages and neighborhoods. One second you praise them for doing so and the next you lament the destruction brought on those place. Can't you see how hypocritic you are? Shouting "war crimes" is just a slogan to you, better check the law, Lebanon is a war criminal for conducting fighting and firing rockets from civilian areas and into Israeli civilian areas.

No it wasn't a proportional war or a symetric war. Israel is much stronger, tough luck. Israel isn't obligated to exchange a bullet for bullet and a rocket for rocket with the insane midget that attacked it.

Lebanon was actually very lucky in that sense. The U.S. has a lot of sympathy for its quasi-democratic government and so it pressured Israel not to hold Lebanon responsible, only Hezbollah. But now the LAF deployed and the rules were clarified. If such a conflict erupts again, if rockets are fired on Israeli cities then I think Lebanon's power stations would be destroyed on the first hour and we won't be able to exchange opinions on such blogs. It would be a shame.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
tears for lebanon said...

Omer
I too thank you. I do believe that you have put some thought into your responses and I thank you for expressing them.

i agree that the katusha rockets do not have the ability to strike specific targets and therefore where they land will cause mass anxiety and injury. However this anxiety and injury could not have been to the degree of what the Lebanese withstood for the reasons of 1)they did not have bomb shelters to retreat to, 2)they were being bombed when 'in route when adhering to the leaflets' that Israel provided of warning, and as you pointed out...3)the missles that Israel has indeed are more accurate, hence the human deaths and injuries combined were in the thousands far more than Israels casualities with the katashuas.

I am not discounting the loss of civilian life in israel...in fact i pray for all innocent souls lost, but please try to understand, the pain and destruction was caused by those who drop the bombs, not by those who are on the receiving end.

Just as the innocent Israeli lives were lost by kutasha rockets by the hands of Hez...the same responsiblity goes to israel for the lost lives of the innocent Lebanese who were bombed by israel.

To say that the civialians were used as shields so it is the fault of Hez is very ignorant. The one who drops the bombs are at fault for killing the innocent, not the ones who are sitting on the ground receiving the consequence of the dropped bomb.

Chas said...

Itai
-very good, insult the people you attacked, blame everyone except, of course, the people who dropped them for the damage done by bombs,
at the same time suggesting that there could have been much more damage and destruction,
and end with a thinly veiled threat.
Nice.

But I do agree with you that it was HB's lack of firepower, rather than any moral restraint, that produced the realtively few (still too many) civilian casualties in N.Israel.

Peace

Chas
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

Omer (israeli) said...

tear for lebanon.

This war was bound to hit cvilians, since the operation were done in civilian neibrhoods. The target however was HA and not civilians. If civilians happend to be there, oh well... this is sad but true. This is clearly immoral, althought protected by International law.

What i pointed out is that HA targeted civilians as civilians. It may be a slight of a diffrence for you, and it well may be so. But intl. law is clear on the subjuct, if civilian infrastructure was used for militiry porpouse then the war crimes were commited by that party and not those droping the bombs.

As i said before, The question left is about some "bizzare" targeting, fleeing refuges is ridicoules. for the reason you mentioned: you can't give leaflets to flee and then bomb them. The same go'es to some other "odd" targeting.

NassurDinHoga said...

How come no one answered nip's question? I'm also very interested. Where do people on this blog come from? Where do you live?

I'm from Haifa, Israel. My name is Avishay, I took my nick from a book I like about (surprise) our beloved Nassur-a Din hoga.

I see most/all people here who speak "for Israel" are Israelis living in Israel. I can say that the Israeli comments here well represent the Israeli left\center, the magority. I include Omer's post that was treated weirdly as "WOW! at last, an Israeli that is ready to say it might not have been such a good idea to shoot this ambulance down!".

Let us be clear - most Israeli would say that many civilians were killed, killed directly by the IDF. Most if not all of us put the blame and the moral responsibility on HA.

seeker said...

tears for lebanon,

You are regressing to arguments of we are more right than you more hurt than you and more victorious than you.
This conversation will lead noware because all sides feel the same (As surprising as it may sound to you)
There were mistakes, both sides admit it, let's learn from it and keep going forward to not repeat it.
Do not let previous mistakes to guide you to new fresh ones.

Some more refreshing news
Wise minster of defence using HA tactics to get some Lebanese intrests
Peace opportunity

tears for lebanon said...

Loli
I don't believe that anyone is expecting Hez to disarm until the international community arrives and when Israel crosses back to the blue line. As I said before, it would be suicide if they did. And it turns out, by way of the commando drop, this is exactly what it would have been....suicide. Hez are many things...dumb is not one of them.

Omer (israeli) said...

nassur,
No i say this time there were far too many mistakes to "brush" it aside. Are we the moral army we claim to be? then we must give answers. If things were done honastly, then an honest replay will do.
However we all no what mean "Investigative commite", its more like "Brush it under the carpet commite. An internal investigation?, a UN investigation? They are useless.
Doesn't anybody in israel have doubts? i think your wrong, alot of people do. They just push it under to sub-conscious and burry it with hate to HA. Yeah, HA are wrong, and they have no buisness messing with us.
But such kind of "mistakes", that happened too often, needs a real answer.

tears for lebanon said...

Omer

"Oh Well"?

I will not say that I'm an expert on International law...but I do believe there are conditions that state that if you believe a target holds innocent people, then you must side on caution and not bomb that target. Because if you don't Omer, then the 'oh well' attitude is viewed as an act of a terrorist, which is the view that the majority of the world held during these massacre aggressions, specifically Qanna.

"oh well"....not just immoral.

An example that was used on this site before...I am not sure who to credit for it...but it makes sense:
A man goes into a bank to rob it, he takes those inside the bank as hostages, the police come, the police shoot all inside to include the robber and the hostages...who is to blame for the deaths of the hostages?...the robber who took the hostages or the police who shot and killed them?

It is the IDF who is fault of the innocent civilian lives lost....not HEZ.

Chas said...

Omer,
Please visit this blog.
You would be a much better contributor than me!
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

Peace
Chas

chuck said...

tears for lebanon,

i do believe with all my heart that Israel is a peace loving country and that Israel aspires for peace in the middle east. u know what ? i can tell u more then that, Israel needs peace.

and i do hope that peace will attack us soon :)

people in Israel were so eager to
believe that peace will come soon (after Israel went out of lebanon in 2000)that the government started making cuts in the deffens budget in the last years.

but i also know that there r forces in the middle east that does not wish for peace. or they wish for peace after Israel is gone. they see the NEED of Israel in peace as a weakness.

i do not say that hitting ambulances is a legitimate thing, not at all. what i was saying is that hisballa make such a scinic use of civilaians, that anything is possible, even the idea of soldiers using ambulances for their military usses.

i do not aprrove of lebanese civilians, wemen and children, getting hurt. u r truly mistaken if u think so.

but it is u'r responsibility as a lebanese to make sure u r not being used as a shield in a battle that u don't need. instead of supporting hisballa and saying how brave and how humanitarian it is, start supporting u'r government.

do u aprrove of the kidnapping of soldiers on the border of Israel ?

do u aprove of the katyusha rockets fired uppon Israeli cityes, obviously not targeting military objectives ?

u can blame Israel as much as u want, but Israel never neede this war. think, what r the interests of Israel in having such a war ?
this war did nothing but damage to Israel. nobody expected it to last so long. all we wanted was to restore quiet to the north of Israel. everybody here thought that the army would destroy the missile launchers in a few days and that hisballa will be driven away from the border.
what do u think, that Israel wanted to conquer lebanon just for fun ? because we got boerd from only fighting with palestinians ?
"yeah, it's been a while since we had a good fight with those lebanese, let's wait till they do something stupid then take over lebanon".

everyone in this side of the border thought that hisballa will lose it's interests after Israel left lebanon in 2000. we thought that lebanon will understand hisballa is not needed and that the soldiers will return to their homes and start having a life instead of standing on the border and shouting "death to Israel", and then returning home indeed, but only to fortify the house and build bunkers, prepering for the next war they'll provoke.

i can tell u, honestly, the army wasn't ready for such a war. nobody expected those soldiers to be kidnapped. nobody expected that we will need to go into lebanon and try to bring them back. does that seem like a country prepering for war ?

we missled ourselves that peace will come soon. we got used to the quiet in the north border. but that doesn't mean that we can't wake up and fight back.

Jordan said...

tears_for_lebanon, while I don't think it is a black and white issue, I think your bank robbery anology is useful but incomplete.

A man goes into a bank, takes a hostage, and finally... starts firing at the cops.

In any court through out the world, the robber would be blamed if the hostage even if it was a cops bullet killed her. When Hezbollah, or anyone else, fails to wear uniforms and fire from civilian locations they are intentionally making every civilian around them a target.

I think Israel should have stopped the bombing campaign much sooner, but I ultimately blame Hezbollah for using human shields. They knew exactly what they were doing when they took position in residential communities, and it worked beautifully. Israel looks horrible, and Hezbollah looks like heros.

NassurDinHoga said...

Omer,
Did I say "mistake" somewhere? What kind of answers ("But such kind of "mistakes", that happened too often, needs a real answer") are you looking for?
And what exactly are you doing unlike others that differs you from those who "just push it under to sub-conscious and burry it"?

seeker said...

tears for lebanon, Jordan

I still think that the analogy is not complete, in fact I think it will be impossible to create a good analogy that will encompass all the litle intricacies of Israel/Lebanon relationship and Lebanon/Lebanon relationship. As somebody mentioned some time ago, if the same thing had happend with a Canadian group aiming to hurt the US, both US and Canada will work togather to eliminte the threat.

Anyways some law Q&A regarding the current conflict

Omer (israeli) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Omer (israeli) said...

Tears of Lebanon,

The "oh well" was said cinycly. I belive that Qana was a mistake. 2 missile were shot on the house. one exploded the other one didn't. malfunction, of course. But it exploded 8 hr after. Its possible the missile fell on the shelter, exploding directly on to it? I really dont know what happened.
And what i said was, the Israel knew that civilians will get hurt in a hunt for HA, but went on with it anyway. There wasn't an intesion on killing civilians, but in order to get to HA, israel would pay in Lebanese blood. While i don't view this in any way "morale", i also know that many, many other countries would do the same or much worst (including but not only most of the arabs countries). This is the reall world.

Omer (israeli) said...

Tears of lebanon,

Is it ok? of course not.

IS HA completly blameless? Well if you can't see the obvious...

Is exploding on buses ok? no way.

This is a sad world. And for that matter reading news makes you bitter.
However ii wouldn't give up on the human species. After all we love our children, we are nice to our friends, we are capbale of alot of good things as well.

Itai said...

Omer (israeli) it doesn't sound like you served in the army but maybe some of your friends or family did so you should check it with them. I for one did serve (currently on reserve) and I talk about these matters with my friends and family who all served in various combatant units. I don't care what other people say I know from my experience that the IDF never targets civilians and makes an effort to minimize collateral damage. Like Ben Gurion said: "It doesn't matter what the gentiles say it only matters what the Jews do." I'm satisfied with the knowledge my army lives to my moral standards. I also have some knowledge of what's going on in other armies and I can say safely that the IDF is the most moral of them all.
As for all those baseless allegations and demonizing attempts you appologetically try to answer, the first things that comes to mind is what is the benefit in targeting ambulances? The IDF is after the headlines? there's some hidden political prize here nobody sees?

tears for lebanon said...

Chuck

Have you not heard that an israeli government official gave a powerpoint session on plans to attack lebanon. This powerpoint presentation was given over a year ago!

The Israeli response was so quick that I have to believe this plan was in place and Israel was indeed prepared for aggressions. Although, i do think it took Israel by surprise that it was not initiated by them, I do think the Israel government was indeed itself planning on the initiative, hence the massive disproportionate aggressions.

To answer your question, do i think it was ok to 'kidnap' soldiers on the border....to simply answer, No, I do not. I would also like to point out that 'kidnap' is the wrong terminology, they were soldiers, therefore they were 'captured' not 'kidnapped'...regardless of the semantics, I do not think it was right.

My response regarding your question of kutasha rockets, I beleive i have alreaady addressed in my posts earlier today....to sum it up...i believe it was wrong, but the Israeli aggression was immeasurably as wrong as well!


Jordon
I will not be able to convince you, I will not try...my postion stands...i beleive the one who drops the bombs are at fault, not the one who receives the consequence of the dropped bombs!

Praying there will be no mored dropped bombs.

Omer (israeli) said...

Itai,
I did serve in the army. But not in a fighting unit. However i did see the "field" every once an a while. I heared many stories.

I know that army commanders are trying to avoid civilian death, but war-crimes do happen anyway, usally from the lower ranks. You don't need much more then 1 soldier to commit a war crime. And i know for sure, that they do sometimes happen. Of course, some of the appernt war crimes are just mistakes or false intelligence.

And ill say more then that: They happen in every army. Since in the army their are all kinds of people. and since anyone can make a mistke, defintly when your life is in danger. In combat sometimes you don't take chances. You act out of survival, not rational thinking.
In generals wars are great platform for war crimes. you cant have one without the other. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And be honest about it.

tears for lebanon said...

Omer
Thanks for your responses...I have enjoyed our discussions. I wish you a good night and peace to all

Shmulik said...

Tears for Lebanon

Let's say Israel will put a M-109 artilley battery in the middle of Naharia (or any other town) and start bombing Lebanese towns from there. By your logic if the LAF or the Hizballah try to destroy this battery and accidently hit civilians than the lebanese are to blame and the battery can continue to fire into Lebanon until they get tired of it. In other words, by your logic if I place weapons near civilians they become completely immune to retaliation. This logic is unacceptable both morally and legally.

Omer (israeli) said...

tears,

"The Israeli response was so quick that I have to believe this plan was in place and Israel was indeed prepared for aggressions. Although, i do think it took Israel by surprise that it was not initiated by them, I do think the Israel government was indeed itself planning on the initiative, hence the massive disproportionate aggressions."

Of course isreal has plans drawn out for lebanon. Its not a peacfull borders, and it wasn't the first time HA attacked. Israel also has plans for Iran, syria aswell. But these are all in the drawer. The reason for this is that the country wont be caught on supprise (like happened in 73).
Do you think that HA haven't done intelligence homework? haven't gotten ready? Does iran have drawer plans for israel? Of course they do, it would be stupid for them not to have one. Just as it would be stupid for Israel not to have a drawer plan for Iran.

That what armies do, prepare for war. But the political leaders decide when.

Do you want to say that the war was unvoidable? I would agree. HA attacked a few times between 2000-2006, this was not their first provocation. Did they really belive that Israel with all its militiry might, wont try to get them, someday?

Omer (israeli) said...

tears,
HA cant use violance and expect roses in return. HA are not dumb. They are a "resistance" their methods are violent to begin with. You can't just let your civilians and soldiers die, waiting for the next attack, not doing anything about it. No country in the world will put up with them.

Itai said...

Omer,
1. In order to commit a crime you need a criminal intent, if a little girl jumps in front of your car tommorow while you drive lawfully I can't claim a murder took place and smear your name, can I? You make a big mess of the discussion since you don't apply any reason or present facts, you just have this general notion that war by its nature is a crime which I can agree to on some poetic level. The problem is that you lose your own moral code once you fail to distinct someone who boards a bus and blows a bomb from someone who tries to hunt this bastard's senders.

2. When dealing with air raids (which I have specific experience with) you don't deal with one person. Pilots don't shout "Jeronimo" and storm, they have to recieve an autorization command every time they fire. They are not in touch with just one guy there's a chain of people involved.

Loli said...

Nip, Nassur,

To answer your question, I am from Beirut, I live in the US, and I am for peace. I condemn violence, wars, and blind hatred. I am for dialog, and a legitimate and fair government in every country. When I say fair, I mean fair to its citizens and its neighbors. One can't live isolated, and needs to respect one's neighbor's security and right to lead a normal life.

tears for lebanon said...

Shmulik, Omer,

I am no military strategist, but I believe the best approach is always a humanitarian approach.

Instead of causing needless death and destruction, attempt to solve an issue with negoiations and dipolamcy. Israel response should have been with the Lebanese government, with the UN, with any entity that would have helped resolve this crisis without the massive massacres and destruction that it has.

No such measure had taken place...and look at where we are right now...still no better than before July 12. Soldiers yet not returned, still border disputes, still Hez armed....and yet we are now 'negiotiating'...without bombs being dropped on both sides. This should have been the first step, not the second after 34 days of war.

Shmulik, i will never believe it is okay to kill innocent civilians, let alone as a first response/resort...so u and i disagree, i believe to do so is not moral and i question legal.

this will be my last post for the night...good night and peace to all.

Loli said...

Tears for Lebanon,
I know you won't respond but if you see this post, I want you to know that I respect you a lot. You are a good person. I too am for diplomacy. I posted a blog in the same vein. Diplomacy should always be the first measure. And it takes a lot of negotiations and good will. Compromise is inevitable to reach an agreement acceptable by both parties.

Itai said...

tears for lebanon, Israel took the approach you suggested (more or less) on 2000 when 3 soldiers were killed and their bodies snatched in a Hezbollah cross border raid. What good did that do?

Resolution 1559 wasn't respected by Lebanon for 6 years so like Klauzevitz said: "War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means"

Look where we are right now (again):
1. The Lebanese defence minister warned today that anybody who would fire a rocket at Israel will be treated as a traitor. I didn't hear such statements before so maybe something did change, maybe the deterrence factor was achieved after all.
2. A miracle happened and LAF deployed along the border. Maybe it has something to do with the war?

As for the other objectives and 1701 clauses time will tell. Looks like violence is the only way to deal with an organization like the Hezbollah.

Chas said...

I have to log off now but let me thank you all, esp Loli, Tears, Omer, Itai and Seeker.
I think we came damn close to having a constructive dialogue there. :)

Peace

chas
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

Shmulik said...

Tears for Lebanon

I do not recall I have said it's the first/best thing to kill civilians, more ever I haven't said fighting at all is the best, far from it. I do believe that whenever it's possible negotiation is the best. The problem is that since 2000 Israel has protested to Lebanon and the UN more than once about HZB actions and no step was taken to correct it. It's hard for me to imagine how to negotiate with an organization that believes it's a religious duty to destroy my nation.

Dimitry said...

tears

In 2000 three soldiers were kidnapped (btw, since the intent of the operation was to take hostages, it is indeed kidnapping). Israel didn't respond in strength, negotiated, and eventually exchanged several terrorists that by now killed dozens of Israelis for the bodies of the three soldiers.
In 2006, two soldiers were kidnapped. Now kids, why, at this stage, would Israel think it will not be wise to simply negotiate with HA?

Loli said...

dimitry, shmulik and itai,

Up until a year ago, the one calling the shots in Lebanon was Syria. Does Syria want Lebanon to have peace with Israel? No. Unfortunately, Lebanon couldn't make any significant decisions under Syrian occupation. Let's hope this government can reach soverignty on all Lebanese soil. Our gov was democratically elected, and while not perfect (like any gov), I believe it is working towards a good and fair solution.

Shmulik said...

Loli

I know that you have been free from Syria for only about one year. The problem is that you didn't do what was needed in this year and morever I (my personal opinion) don't think that your government would have done so in the forseeable future. Is it because I think that lebanese/Seniora's cabinet are bad men? no. It's because it's far easier to lead rather normal lives in Beirut (so you can't enter the Daheia, big deal) and watch HZB and Israel bleed themselves than risk full scale civil war. This is exactly what I would do in their shoes. The problem is that Israel can't accept that and that in the long run such compormise with HZB is ruinous to Lebanon (did you ever sdee a politician that thinks of the long run??). Maybe this rtragedy has opened Lebanon's governemt eyes about the dangers of HZB. I sure hope so.

nip said...

All,

But still no one answered my question.
How many Lebanese people are writing in this blog that are Pro HB and live outside of Lebanon? How many are anti HB and live inside Lebanon? And all the other combinations:-)

I wanted to stop writing here but couldn't resist adding one more thing about the cease fire violations debate. This is something I wrote way up up in this blog thread.

"Breaking the cease fire according to U.N 1701,
Lets see...
1. Return the kidnapped soldiers. Don't make me laugh.
2. Disarm the HB. No. Even though that Lebanon government and HB agreed to this term last Saturday, when they accepted resolution 1701.
3. Remove HB from south lebanon. No. Even though that Lebanon government and HB agreed to this term last Saturday, when they accepted resolution 1701.
4. Israel withdraw from South Lebanon while Lebanon army moves in. Yes.
5. Enforce an embargo on arms supply to HB. No. And this was the purpose of the commando and limited airstrike yesterday. To stop a convoy of arms to HB.
"

It seems that everyone here thinks that only the HB failure to disarm was a violation of the cease fire. What about the refusal to go north of the Litani?
If HB were actually afraid for their lives and this is why they didn't disarm, - as some noted here - then why didn't go up north. There is no Israeli military presence north of the litani.

I don't want to continue this tit for tat discussion anymore, if the Lebanese think that HB is good for Lebanon, nothing we say in this blog will help to persuade them otherwise. Let just schedule to meet here in a month to a year from now. I would suggest that everyone copy their blog comments, it will save us the writing for next time.

Loli said...

Shmulik,

It's true that it easier to let a problem go to oblivion while solving daily problems and expediting normal business. However, you can't be sure that the Leb gov wouldn't have reached any agreement with HA. We simply don't know. We didn't give them enough time. On the other hand, I understand that your people is fed up with HA's provocations. But war is not the solution, and at the risk of sounding like a parrot, I believe war is wrong. We are paying the price for lots of mistakes of the past, and everyone should take their share of responsibility.

Shmulik said...

Loli

In a normal world you are right. However the middle-east is probably as far away from normal as you can imagine. Each time Israel flinches away from conflict (south Lebanon 2000, Gaza 2005) it seems the arab world doesn't consider it as a commitment for peace but as a proof that Israel can be humbled and than destroyed through military power. Can you honestly tell me I have to trust the security of my country on a deal between a weak (some would say cowardly) goverment and a terroist organization that religeiosly hates my guts? Most israeli (despite our reputation) don't consider military solutions as good or just, it's organizations like HZB who gives us no choice.

Loli said...

Shmulik,

So what's your solution? Wage another war? (I am not being sarcastic) It won't work, unless you nuke Lebanon and the region. Tell me what else can you do but resort to the international community and let diplomacy do its job.

Trust is really what is missing, and I am not saying you should trust HA, rather the Lebanese gov. By attacking HA, what Israel and the US have achieved is more reasons for HA to justify its arms. Moreover, propaganda alienated more people on both sides of the border.
I would like to add that hatred and the lack of empathy also appears among Israelis.
I condemn the politics of hatred, whatever its source is. I was appalled by several very nasty comments from your people on this blog. Some of them alienating people like Tears for Lebanon and Lebanese Liona who had started commenting with a very hard position and after constructive dialog with people like Omer, softened their stance and could see that reality is not black and white. However, soon after, some Israelis made so many nonsense hateful comments, insulting without limits the prophet and Muslims altogether. They addressed these people who were willing to have a dialog in such a way that I felt they were trying to dehumanize them. It is truly sad: on one side you see Nasrallah calling for the death of Israel, on the other side you hear people dehumanizing Muslims and putting them all in the same bucket with terrorists.

I hope this cease-fire will hold, and the Lebanse army will prevail.

Wishing peace to all of us

Signing off.

Shmulik said...

Loli

Good-night, I hope foe better news for us tomarrow.

Annasru Ata said...

how can hizbulla fighters go out of litani? its impossible. these ppl hold daily lives they are architects, electricians, doctors, carpenters, painters..... they are the citizens of these towns r u saying we have to remove these ppl from their towns and homes and put them elseware! it's impossible to remove them behind the litani river. but its not possible to disarm.
and for someone who wanted to know where we are from. i'm from beirut and living in beirut.

chuck said...

hisballa can't just go away, they r the people who live in south lebanon. it is their home. but they can lay down their weapons or even make themselves a part of a lebanese army, and stop being guerila fighters, getting their orders from nasralla, who gets his orders from teheran.

i feel we r going over and over again on things that has already been said here.

anyway, mainpoint is, i hope that the lebanese army will finally take over it's own land; that the lebanese government will take control over things in lebanon, start being strong and don't let other countries manipulate it; that that Israel won't have to feel threatened from the north border anymore, and maybe even peace will come between these two countries inshalla, airstrikes and foot soldiers invasions will stop, and so we can all live in peace in this region.

only do me a favor, if hisballa people decides to run for government or nasralla wants to get elected for presidency or for prime minister,
J U S T S A Y N O !

have a good night ya'll.

Al said...

To Nip.

You said. "How many Lebanese people are ....Lebanon? And all the other combinations:-)" Whats your point
People in Lebanon right now are rebuilding their homes that Israel destroyed.
People in Lebanon are detecting the nuclear traces of your PBombs.

Nip, 1701 was not a lebanese demand, it was the UN's demands on Lebanon to save israel. It was a not right for the lebanese. now do you want to argue that point

"Breaking the cease fire according to U.N 1701,
Lets see...
1. Return the kidnapped soldiers ," that was conditional on exchange of prisoners"
2. Disarm the HB. " this is conditional on the withdraw from the lebanese lands
3. Remove HB from south lebanon. "TThe United Nations did not suggest mas exodos, although israel tried to empty the southern villages.
4. Israel withdraw from South Lebanon while Lebanon army moves in. Yes. "the left 30% of the incursion"
5. Enforce an embargo on arms supply to HB. "the purpose of the embargo was to kill Shiekh Naim Kassem, the MK planes followed him all day, and they thought he was going to his house, besides, a comando who fakes his cloths to be in lebnanese army cloths is a failed commandos.
Israel wants to prove that they can kill their enemies wherever they are in the world. Sorry try again... :-)

"It seems that everyone here thinks that only the HB failure to disarm was a violation of the cease fire. What about the refusal to go north of the Litani?"

HA is 800K people who live in southern litani, if your saying that they should disapear, you are facing a similar problem to gaza cos these people arent going to cease to exist, all you can do is send an atomic bomb you can do it very easily.

"If HB were actually afraid for their lives and this is why they didn't disarm, - as some noted here - then why didn't go up north. There is no Israeli military presence north of the litani."

This is a part of your plan to have them clash with other lebanese factions :-) you ploy has been foiled.

"I would suggest that everyone copy their blog comments, it will save us the writing for next time."

We know that this cease fire was put to help israel regroup so that they attack again, but the next one habibi, the rockets will be hitting
daymona, and your military bases, these rockets were blinds, but the next ones will be very awake.

CMAR II said...

Hurray for the Lebanese Defense Minister for choosing to assert the government and army's right to run Lebanon's foreign policy:

“We consider that when the resistance (Hezbollah) is committed not to fire rockets, then any rocket that is fired from the Lebanese territory would be considered collaboration with Israel to provide a pretext (for Israel) to strike.”

frozenwingnut said...

yep, they bravely fought all the way to the end. Hiding behind women and children to the very last woman and child. Until real Men in uniform have left. Then the brave brave Arab warriors come out on a nice sunny day and chant. Never fear oh brave Arab warriors, there are many more women and children in beruit to hide behind

dunes said...

AL:
regarding nuclear bombs yes and we also take the blood of an arab or a christian child and make matzas with them every passover

HA is a millita thats comprised of about 3000 soldiers not 800,000
so please tell that to some one else...
as for those ha milltia living in south lebanon the demand is simple : lay down ur arms
as for the ploy - yes we are evil we are just waiting for a chance to kill arabs....



"We know that this cease fire was put to help israel regroup so that they attack again, but the next one habibi, the rockets will be hitting
daymona, and your military bases, these rockets were blinds, but the next ones will be very awake."

yes and we needed time to regroupe so we can kill arabs .....

common man are you living the real world . before all this begain israel had already forgot the name lebanon
we build hotles in the north of israel while you were building bonkers - find the diffrence
and btw , i think that from the last month or so you should have learned that israel has more missiles then HA and ours our bigger and noisier , so dont threaten us , we dont respond kindley to threats
and if thats your way of diplomacy - i really think you should check your facts again.

nip said...

Al,

Dunes was quicker than me to response and covered most of the items.
I would like to add a few things:
1. If the Lebnese government and HB opposed the content of U.N 1701, they shouldn't have accepted it as they did. A week before the resolution was accepted they openly objected to it's content and it was changed to their request. By accepting a cease fire agreement that they can't accept, Lebanon government and HB revealed who is more in desperate need of a cease fire. But then you would probably won't agree to this.

2. Please go over Nasralla comments on cease fire with Israel at the beginning of the war and near its end. After reading, do let me know if you still thinks that Israel needed the cease fire.

3. It is good that you are here. In fact I don't think that you actually need my opinion, as you already knows what both of us think. "My foild plans", I didn't know I had such plans to begin with.

4. You are a true death and war lover aren't you! My comments were merely that if the situation will not change then we are heading for another conflict. I didn't say I'm looking forward for it, in fact I wish it will never happen. I didn't try to threaten anyone, just pointed out the obvious. Again without threatening anyone, I would recommend you re-evaluate the army power equation before suggesting any bombardment of key items in Israel, I think you forgot some pieces in the puzzle you are making there.

5. In my question about Lebanese support for HB, I just wanted to understand how many Lebanese here support or oppose HB, and if they are from Lebanon or not. Here in Israel we really do not understand if HB is widely supported as it claims or not (IMHO, Israeli media reports on this kind of support is wrong at best). By the angry and irrelevant responses I'm getting, I understand that this question is not something that Lebanese want to answer, so I'm withdrawing it.

Omer (israeli) said...

"We know that this cease fire was put to help israel regroup so that they attack again, but the next one habibi, the rockets will be hitting
daymona, and your military bases, these rockets were blinds, but the next ones will be very awake."

Its actually quite the opposite. My experince with groups like HA that call for destruction of israel, martydom of their own people That they will attack again. I guess when they do, you will say: "Israel wanted to attack any way". In the arabs eye we are resposible foe every war, even if we didn't open them. So typical, what else? Israel is resposible for the hole in the Ozon?

Isreal will get ready for the next war, we have no other choice. But only HA will decide when to open it.

Ya, and HA will get ready too. aiming at Dimona or other sites. This of course will lead to a pacific reaction from Israel?

One last thing. Unlike HA we don't teach our children hate. Our school progrem work towards peace. We were told that it is achivable. But violent action by HA or Hamas with support of the most peacfull county on earth (Iran), leads to have serious dobuts about peace in the future.

We are just blood suckers, enjoying death and destrucion? Yes? We enjoy sending our kids and father to kill and get killed. Yes?

Maybe for once, only once the HA should try peacfull methods? or do you belive "resistance" is the only way?
If you think that then please consider that HA tactics are violent by definition. They use violence to achive their goals, what ever they me be ("librate lebanon", librate palestine, destruction of Israel).
Now, for how long do you think that Israel will stand back? Or maybe you think we just need to "cave in" to violance? What can i say, Arabs are excelent in diplomacy.

Omer (israeli) said...

Every time you want something (justly or not) use violance.
Don't forget to learn from HA.

Annasru Ata said...

to omer:
"every time you want something (justly or not) use violance.
Don't forget to learn from HA. "

uhm did u know that there were heavy negotiations between Hizb and israel to hand over the prisoners but just days b4 the handing over israel pulled the plug and refused to let them go. so if ur talking abt violance and not wanting to give them back peacefully then ur talking first and formost abt ur government.

Omer (israeli) said...

annasru ata,
Israel has 3 lebanese prisinors. They are murders (like kuntar). But diplomacy is possible. Just like it was possible with egypt and jordan.

"uhm did u know that there were heavy negotiations between Hizb and israel to hand over the prisoners but just days b4 the handing over israel pulled the plug and refused to let them go"

Did you know that in exchange information on a prisinor named Ron arad was to be given? and israel didn't get it (hence no deal didn't come throu)

You say the "resistance" is just becasue israel doesn't want to negotiate. So you rather have a violent militant faction to achive this goal.
BTW, Israel problems with lebanon are considerbly small. We negotiated much more with egypt and jordan.

What do HA teach the world (and more specific the arab world)?

Everytime you are just (in your own eyes) you may use violance to further your goal. Hey the arab world is in much bigger problem, if they support this kind of tactics. When bombs will explode in evey country in the arab world for "justly" reasons (as they do in egypt and other places). This is your OWN medicine.

Annasru Ata said...

I've said it a million times its simple we dont trust u and u dont trust us. the one who decides to make the first move by either giving back the prisoners/land or putting down their weapons will be considered by the world as peace maker or by their people as the one who surrendered.
since the world will recognise how peace willing and all for peace the israeli government is and willing for a peaceful future then why don't do that.. bcs in the region they will look weak and especially with iran's powers they dont want to be weak. so they will not cave in without US backing to do something to Iran(military or non military).
now if hizb were to lay down weapons first then similarly they will be looked as the weak but by both the world and the ppl. Then israel will look stronger in the region which pleases the US too.

what do u think will happen. the middle east is all interrelated. both Lebanon and israel have internal problems and can't afford more fighting. then u have pro israeli arab countries(but the ppl aren't) and syria/iran.
Lebanon's internal problems will never be solved if things with israel aren't solved(both internal and external)there are also the palestian refugees to consider.

so answer me anyone: where is the PEACE in this equation.

Lirun said...

the problem is that a single act in itself is insufficient to build trust.. we dont even have foundations for trust.. therefore many an act goes unnoticed..

we need to voice our desire for peace with every avenue we have.. our (both sides´) leaders dont get it..

lirun
from telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
we need to wake them up

Omer (israeli) said...

"I've said it a million times its simple we dont trust u and u dont trust us. the one who decides to make the first move by either giving back the prisoners/land or putting down their weapons will be considered by the world as peace maker or by their people as the one who surrendered"

We left lebanon in 2000. What did they learn? that violance pay, and they should do more in the future.

We left Gaza 2005. What did they learn? Israel is weak, now is time for more violance.

"now if hizb were to lay down weapons first then similarly they will be looked as the weak but by both the world and the ppl. Then israel will look stronger in the region which pleases the US too.
"

I actually agree with you that HA should disarm after Israel leaves and not after. But will they?

"Lebanon's internal problems will never be solved if things with israel aren't solved(both internal and external)there are also the palestian refugees to consider"

Hopefully they will. But for now we are stuck with Hamas which declares (in its own election-charter) that 67 border is just the first step to the destruction of Israel. So whats true for HA is also true for Hamas. How do you make peace by destroying your opponent? And bombing it in buses, pubs and so on?

so answer me anyone: where is the PEACE in this equation

I'll join in and ask the same question.

Omer (israeli) said...

annasu,
Its not about "surrender" or ego. I'm willing to "surrender" if it brings peace.

But uptill now every Israeli "Surrender" is counted as weakness and only facilitate the next attack.

Lirun said...

"where is peace in this equation?"

ill answer and say here we are!!

we are all here because we want to talk resolve and bridge.. we need to get louder..

we must make the world know.. WE WANT PEACE!! YOU HEAR THAT "WORLD"!! we have had enough!!

we are the equation!! the whole equation..

lirun
from telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
time to get factored into the equation!

dunes said...

im sorry lirun,omer,nip,and all other israelis

all the time lebanese said we have no trust amongest out ppl but i ask you all how can you trust a nation
that every time an israeli life is lost goes out on a national holyday ?
how can you trust people that call us pigs monkeys donkeys ?
how can you trust them after we have left them alone and went on with our lifes building vacation resorts and they went and build bunkers ....... im sorry we have trusted the arabs way more then they have showned to trust us


Annasru ata : lebanon and the arabs are going to have to work to earn our trust
we have proven on and on that we want peace
all we see from our side is the statements by your leaders that we are murderes and by your religius that wee are pigs , and by your teachers that we are the enemy . i have not heard one condemnation of the attack's made by HA from lebanon ,

and to all israelis here its time we say with open mouth's what we all feel
we all know that if for a second the arabs will see a weak israel they will marvell the opretunity and jump us like a lion stocking its prey. inlight of history we have no reason to trust arab's .

nip said...

All,

Sadly I must say that I agree with Dunes.
As Omer mentioned, every land pull out we made in the last 6 years blew up in our faces. In 2000 it was Lebanon and 2005 from Gaza. The immense effort it took to pull out from Gaza strip in terms of internal Israeli debate and conflict didn't pay at all. The kasam rockets pounded a week after the pull out.

I want to see once, just once a demonstration in the arab world for peace with Israel. I'm not talking thousands of people. 10 people together saying out in the open, in the middle of the street in one arab country that they want peace with Israel. Any chance? Why not? you are not ready yet? when will you be ready? a year? 10 years? 50 years? Just give a date.
Writing in blogs like these that you want peace and you have others like you means nothing. NOTHING!!
It was always like that. Even in Arafat time. Talking behind close doors his advisors wanted peace and the end to the conflict. But once they were near Arafat, their tone changed 180 degrees.

To all Lebanese seeking peace, you know what is the major difference between Israelis and Lebanese? We proudly say that we want peace, in the street, to our friends, in demonstrations we hold, over our media and in blogs like this. You only say you want peace in blogs, quitely beneath the table so no one will hear.

There are only two Arabs I know that spoke out loud in the street that they want peace. President Sadat from Egypt that paid with his life for his desire and king Hussein of Jordan -with Jordan we had a quiet peace for quite some time before the actual open declaration-.

Al said...

If you show an israeli an absolute truth about thier destruction ability, they will cry and say 'oh you think we are blood suckers'
Omer did that, Nip and others, it seams to me that you learn it in your argumentation class"

for all those who dont know, they have a special class in school, primary and secondary, to teach their children how to argue :-)

If Israelis hit some one, its an act of defence

If some one hits israel its an act of terrorism

If israeli call muslims backward and war loving, its a journalistic fact

If some one calls an israeli war loving, and monsterous, they call it anti-semite. :-)

To Raja,
Bottom Line, this blogpost and many other chat sites have become a recruiting site for agents of Israel, nothing more, Israelis now the 30,30,40 rule: 30 like israel, 30 are indifferent, and 40 hate you.

Their goal from posting here is not to convince the 40, but rather to train the 30 to become agents and use some of the other 30 to become spys :-)

if you work with the ISF, Israeli Soft Forces, ie trained people that monitor and dissimate media and funds and etc... you should leave this blog and leave it for regular israelis and regular lebanese to talk.......

Al said...

Raja,
the last 4 lines, were for the israeli users, not you........

cheers

nip said...

I must add one more item.
What would be the reaction of HB to a rally for peace with Israel with thousands marching the streets of Beirut?

In Israel we did just that quite a few times with tens of thousands people marching.

Annasru Ata said...

dunes: where have u proven on and on that u want peace.
if u truly wanted peace then after hizb attacked u israel had 2 options to go for peacefull negotiations and trade prisoners directly or wage the war. if it doesnt matter that israel would have looked weak and given in to hizb then why did the war happen. if not to prove to the world and the region(mainly iran) that ur government will never surrender.

dunes said...

AL : here it comes again we are spys in israel's mossad yes israel places alot of wight for this blog
as we know that if we can turn you into a mossad agent then we won .

men try to wake up once with out an ounce of hate in you head.

omer : i couldnt put it any better . sadly al here is the majority of arabs and for them we are nothing but war mongering mossad agents who work with satan.

ps: i think that i have a bigger chance of seeing my favorite soccer group wining the israeli cup (maccabi petah tiqva)
then having peace.

nip said...

Shit, Al blew our cover.
To Lirun, Omer, Dunes and the rest of the Israelis, the Lebanese discovered our true identity, its time to move to the next Lebanese blog.
As a punishment to us all for been discovered, we all need to take argumentation classes from the beginning.

I still have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard. Al, at first I thought you are someone that enjoys saying stuff just for the purpose of saying, even if these sentences you put out have no grip on reality. Now I know you are a comedian, and a damn good one. Stick around, you make this blog a much more funny place.

nip said...

Annasru Ata,

You should join the peace negotiation teams. You just found a great way to discuss peace. HB will kidnapp soldiers from Israel without any provocation from Israel, and then exchange them with Lebanese prisoners that killed innocent families on Israeli soil. Wait a minute, where did I hear such terms before? Ah yes, from Nasralla.

Dimitry said...

al

You say this blog is a training ground for agents for Israeli Soft Forces, and then you're surprised when people redicule your statements?


loli

You government could have prevented this war by declaring, right after the kidnapping, that this action is unacceptable and that they will take all the neccesery steps to find and free the captives. Instead, they said they aren't responsible for that (i.e., aren't really sovereign, but that's another issue), they don't condone it but hey if we're here, might as well squeeze something from Israel for exchange *wink wink*, etc. etc.

No. I really don't think that the change of government would've been any relevant here. Israel would've negotiated, freed a bunch of murderers, and HA would've attacked again, just like 2000. Er, no thanks. If nothing else, and probably indeed nothing else, one good thing that came out of this war is the fact that now attacks on Israel come with a price tag. Lebanon can no longer treat HA attacks on Israel like they treat news from Ivory Coast.

Annasru Ata said...

no u have. wat better way to have peace by lauching a full offensive on a "weak" country to show ur military muscles. A war to end all wars. lol thanks but where have we heard that b4 oh rite just before the world wars. excellent approach to peace. blame everyone but not urself.
yet gain i get drawn to these silly little arguments that get u no where. but i reply bcs i don't like to be defeated just like my country and ALL it's ppl.

Dimitry said...

annasaru

First, couldn't Israel pulling out from Lebanon in 2000 be concidered the first step? And don't tell me Israel didn't pull out of all of it, Shebaa Farms weren't Lebanese back then, their retroactive annexation occured only after 2000.
Second, also in 2000, three soldiers were kidnapped. Israel negotiated their release. Couldn't that be concidered for a first step?

dunes said...

Annasru Ata said...
no u have. wat better way to have peace by lauching a full offensive on a "weak" country to show ur military muscles. A war to end all wars. lol thanks but where have we heard that b4 oh rite just before the world wars. excellent approach to peace. blame everyone but not urself.
yet gain i get drawn to these silly little arguments that get u no where. but i reply bcs i don't like to be defeated just like my country and ALL it's ppl.

Funny i tought youd be acustomed to defeat by now.

Chris from lebanon said...

Al,

I already told you before and before: Most of true patriot lebanese DO NOT support Hezbollah. They never did and never will.

For you, grasping this reality makes you so confused that you think that those who don't support Hezb are Israeli agents.

Equaly, those who look for peace and prosperity makes you so out of date that you call them traitors.

Hoping for a strong lebanese state, peace, democracy and hopeful futur for our kids is the very soul of every true lebanese. It is you that should wake up and appreciate whats hapenning. You can join us still.

chuck said...

what can i tell u people,
i just returned from my daily debreifing with our cheiff of staff, and the prime minister and the secretery of deffence were there too.
we decided to have another war in a few days.
and we get our complements from our head of recruits for the good work we r doing in bloggs all over the world. good job guys !

OOOOOPS, i shouldn't have said that here, i just felt so comfortable having all of u Israeli secret service agents here that i actually thought that this was one of our mossad retoric argumentation classes...

i can just claim the same about u, al,that u r an iranian agent that came here to rally people and preach for joining hisballa and support war with Israel. soon u'll be calling for people to come fight with u against Israel and maybe even sacriffice u'r life in a suicide bombing in the middle of Tel-Aviv, because Israelis r baaaaaaad.

pfffffffff argumentation calsses MY ASS !!

give me a break.
u didn't come here to talk to people, u just enjoy seeing u'r posts get published in a place where people can actually read them, and where people actually react to u'r posts.
u love that.

unlike u, i came to this blogg to listen to people, to hear what the other side has to say about what is going on around here.
i came here because i was hoping to find people with whom i can talk about ways of brieding between our 2 countries, because i wanted to show that we r not just coming to destroy lebanon and that the majority of Israelis is not war loving as u might think,
and that we wish to live in peace,
and i guess i was hoping to find some people on the other side that might believe that too. or at least willing to listen.

obviously u, al, r not one of them.

what can i say to u, yes Israel is strong, we have lots of guns and missiles and plains and warships and everything, even atomic.

and yes, i do believe that engaging hisballa was neccesary, and i do believe that hisballa suffered a great lose in this war, which i aprrove of. damn those hisballa ! they hit us all the time and we won't hit back ? hisballa, at least for now, is not a force that is willing to come to a negotiation table and talk about peace, this is a force that in it's basis wants to destroy Israel.
Israel has the right to fight back, just as any other country (especialy an arab country) would do.
anyone who claims otherwise only wishes for Israel to accept attacks and suffer quietly, like it has been doing for 6 years now.

if u call Israelis war mongers and war loving, then yes, we will get hurt, and callu anti-semite, because in the foundation of our society we r peace loving nation, and if u say otherwise then u r saying it because u have no idea about Israeli society and u r being fed by rummors and pro judgment. we do not wish for war, if i was wishing to have war then i would come to this blogg and start telling all of the people here to go screw themselves and not waste my time in this blogg trying to make u believe that i'm for peace. and like me i believe r the other Israelis in this blogg that r trying so hard to make u believe that they r for peace.

and i believe the same about the lebanese people that come here. i don't call lebanese people war mongeres, although their president is a pro syrian and honors hisballa in public. i don't see him as the one representing the whole of the people in lebanon. or at least i keep my hopes that he doesn't... because if he does, then we will never have peace, and i can't accept that.

if u think that Israelis r after lebanese blood then how come only 1000 people were killed ? why not more ? why not send plains to kill thousands more lebanes ? why tell lebanese to evacuate their homes before bombings ? why risk soldiers lifes in sending them inside villages where they know that hisballa fighters r hiding, ambushing them ?

why kill only 26 people in quana ? why not blow the whole village sky high ? that would have saved us the truoble.

chuck said...

again, i will join a fight against hisballa any time, because hisballa is all about detroyng Israel. it might show it's humanitarian face to the people of lebanon, but it shows his ugly face to us Israelis, and i believe for no reason but a self rightous reason, claiming of being the world saint by showing it's resistance to the jewish infadles, "anti islamic" nation, WHICH WE R NOT AT ALL.

al, i trully urges u to try and see more then what u get in the media. PLEASE !

Annasru Ata said...

its quite funny dimitry, if winning for u is by killing of thousands of civilians then by large congratulations. but for us Lebanese, winning is by never giving up and building the country whatever happens if it is a tsunami or israel or civil war.

israel were forced to leave south lebanon bcs they couldn't take that kind of war. it wasn't bcs of their love for us. we dont have a problem with how they left but they did. and why would it be a first step. its our land u didnt do us a favour. the favour would be if without any reason the return of the prisoners. then yes that would be more than a first step that would be lasting peace.

Annasru Ata said...

In qana 57 people died 26/28 were children. so yes they took ur advise and did kill more.

chuck
u dont like to be called antiislamic nation we dont like to be called an antijewish nation. i do agree that what comes out of irans president are just poor talk nothing else but since Hizb get weapons from iran it doesnt mean that we want to wipe u out of the face of the earth. things have long changed before both sides wanted to eliminate each other but now each wants to live peacefully alone having nothing to do witth each other. i truly hope and i say ur goverment loses interest in us. comeon its impossible to even think that our threat is stronger than ur threat but a threat nontheless. we have to learn to live together seperately(if that makes any sense) for one thing i just hope there comes a time were ur mossad isn't in beirut. will that happen. never.
we know u were drivven by the US to wage a war indirectly on iran.what do we have to do with iran, weapons and money so what. by the same logic Lebanon has every right to attack US. if it is a proxy war between US and Iran then why are both sides so easy to manipulate. we are truly idiots to wage a war in our countries and let them both off the hook. we could have solved our problems but of not international interferance.

Dimitry said...

Israel lefrt Lebanon because large parts of the public, as well as the government, convinced themselves that HA is fighting only against the occupation of Lebanon, and once this ended, they would have no reason to attack. This is why Israel left. It wasn't because Israel was constantly losing soldiers, but because it was percieved those lives were lost in vain.

So, don't take too much credit for yourself.



And who talks about love? Israel showed twice already that they're willing to end the conflict. The outcome? The conflict intesified. Tell me, why should have Israel negotiated the release of those kidnapped in 2006, after the negotiation about the 2000 kidnapping brought just more attacks?

Dimitry said...

In Qana there were 20-odd casualties. It was reported several days after the event. Isn't it curious how death tolls of event in Israel tend to increase with new reports, while in Lebanon decrease?

Omer (israeli) said...

Someone here said the Israeli always blame the other side. I want to remind alot of Israeli's this is true. The same goes to most of the arab world, they fail to see their true part in the ongoing conflict. No one is completly innocent.

We all have responsibiliy, we must all see them if we wish for peace. Which i belive most of us do, even if we given up on hope.

chuck said...

anasru ata,

i had a hard time looking for this, because it's buried so deep...it was mentioned once, verry briefly in the cnn news channal and then forgotten.

"BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's airstrike in Qana earlier this week killed 28 people, and 13 are still missing, according to an investigation by the England-based group Human Rights Watch."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/02/qana.inquiries/index.html

it just shows u that people r not realy looking for the truth, and just accept the first thing they hear in the media.

and i don't aprrove at all of those 28 killed, i'm not trying to rationalise their death and say Israel is right by killing them.

i'm only showing u that the tv news channals r not as objective as they claim to be.

the first numbers of the dead in the attack on qana were screamed out on the cnn news channel and other channels, and were repeated over and over again in every news broadcast that they made. but when the true numbers of dead and wounded were discovered, it somehow became irelevant, mentioned once, and then forgoten.

Al said...

I want to ask the israelis, can arabs protest in israel !@#!@

We have a lebanese opposition, they are voicing their concerns, in parliament on TV, We cannt protect our protestors, cos may be Israel will plant a bomb and pay a journalist to screem hell, HA is killing us, thats a receipe for civil war ya 3ammi


I ask the state of israel to build a wall with us, i would volunteer to build it. Just like Israel built a wall with PL. I would call it wishfull thinking, israel's interests are not hidden, weather you wish to see it or not.

for those kids who are wining and laughing, you seam so immature, especially chuck, i know schools outside of israel, may be you dont have them within country. I remind you that you are not talking to some one with your background, i want to ask you if you have any arab friends :-)

If you come here to listen as you, say how come you follow the same pattern, dont you find that ironic.....

You hide behind that anti-semite word some many times it makes me sick, if you are a peace loving nation, remove the 2 lines from your flag and more so, accept the red-cross membership.

I wonder why israel does not recognize the international red-cross. :-) May be the red cross is anti-semite too :-) May be its not a cross its a dagger.....

Or is the reason israelis dont like the red-cross was because of world war 2.

Dimitry said...

Actually, from my experience, it's the other way around. The attitude of most Israelis, both on right and on left, is to concider Israel responsible for its actions, and concider it to be its duty to act in the way to best serve the Israeli interests. Whether it is Uri Avneri, who conciders every murderer of Arab origin to be essentially peace loving person who wants nothing some love and therefore Israel should negotiate with him; or if it is someone like who sees HA as a threat and therefore conciderd Barak's actions to be largely responsible for the current war - it's all about what Israel should do. We aren't them, we can't control them, they aren't of ours - they're essentially a given, now what we do about it. This is what being discussed in Israeli forums: not what Lebanon should do, not what HA should do, not what US, France, Norway or Ivocy Coast should do - but what Israel should do.

On the other hand, more often than not, the attitude of the Arab world is again what Israel should do. What the US should do. Israel should have negotiated. Israel shouldn't have bombed. The US shouldn't support Israel's action. France should've sent peacekeepers. The only massive exception to this rule I'm aware of - except terrorists - is the Cedar Rev crowd. We're yet to see whether there's still wind in their sails, en masse.


Of course, the above is a very gross generalization. On this blog, there're quite several people who try to take the attitude of what Lebanon should do to further its interests (and that isn't identical to blindly supporting HA) - loli, chris, many more. However, they're often attacked on this attitude: "why are talking about what Lebanon should do while Israel is yadda yadda yadda?" - how many times did we see this post here? I personally lost count. And overall, the tone of voice I hear from the Arab world, and yes, even often from this blog, is "Israel should change".


Treat Israel as more-or-less given. It will change by itself, both in response and regardless of your actions. In light of that, decide what is the best thing for you to do. If it is support of HA and of war, be preapered to face the consequences. If it is opposition of war in Israel, rein HA in. But focus on what Lebanon should do.

Dimitry said...

can arabs protest in israel !

Yes. Its got to rediculus degrees, where Israeli Parliament members arranged meetings in support of HA in the the Arab sector. Before the current war - I wonder if they'll be equally succesfull now.


I ask the state of israel to build a wall with us

Walls are very unuseful when it comes to stopping rockets and mortars. There was quite the security fence in July 12th, though.


Look, you can't say people are Mossad agents and expect mature and reasonable responses. That's rediculus. Focus on more or less reasonable arguments, you'll recieve reasonable answers.

Omer (israeli) said...

Al.
misconception are rampent,

"I want to ask the israelis, can arabs protest in israel "

The answer is YES! What did you think? we are democratic. If the Arabs have the right to be part of the parliment (and of course vote), then why not protest? Many of the demonstration against this
war was done by them!

The only exeptcion being the PL's who are not Israeli citizens.

"We have a lebanese opposition, they are voicing their concerns, in parliament on TV, We cannt protect our protestors, cos may be Israel will plant a bomb and pay a journalist to screem hell, HA is killing us, thats a receipe for civil war ya 3ammi "

You are really brainwashed if you think we do things like that. Thou i don't say we are always "nice" but we certintly don't deal in such tactics. Plus a weak Lebanon will only serve the intrests of our enemy. No, we need you strong.

"for those kids who are wining and laughing, you seam so immature, especially chuck, i know schools outside of israel, may be you dont have them within country"

Al, you were accusing us all of being Mossad spys. Of course they are laguhing at you, what you expect?


"You hide behind that anti-semite word some many times it makes me sick, if you are a peace loving nation, remove the 2 lines from your flag and more so, accept the red-cross membership."

I too think that Ant-semetism is being used in a much wider unhealthy sense. We can't let it shield true criticizm. At the same time it does exist. And its just like any other form of racism. Actually we can both relate, Both Jews and Arabs suffer from racism around the world.

Oh, by the way, We joined the red cross a few month ago. And the red-cross has its pressence in israel for a long time now.

Omer (israeli) said...

Al,
What do the blue line have to do with it? i ask seriously, i myself don't know what that represents?

Annasru Ata said...

New York Times

"In the all-day scramble to retrieve the bodies from the remains of this one house — backhoes dug for hours at the site after an early-morning airstrike — tallies of the dead varied, from as many as 60 to 27, many of them children."
Allah yir7amon
if it was 1 or 100 ur govermnet claims it was a mistake. funny how qana always brings major faults. i guess its the towns fault for being there at that ime at that place not ur bombs.

Omer (israeli) said...

annasru ata,

The goverment claimed that IF they had known they wouldn't have let the bombing go through.

They did not say that the bombs didnt kill them, or wasn't resposible for the deaths.

You can decide if you belive it or not, but don't put words into their mouths. PLZ.

chuck said...

al,

this might surprise or even shock u, but yes, arabs can protest in Israel, without being afraid of geting bombed by Israeli mossad. and they do it verry often even infront of the Israeli government.

u r afraid to protsest becaus eu r afraid of getting bombed by Israel ? u r so full of BS !

u might be affraid that hisballa will put a bomb, trying to eliminate it's oposers, and when it might happened u ofcourse will blame Israel for doing so.

because u must be forgeting that hisballa is not a democratic organisation, it doesn't believe in free speach. it believes in achieving it's goals at any cost.

like what is happening right now in the palestinian territories. hamas is trying to eliminate it's oposers over there, they will start moving from house to house, killing fatah members that opose hamas, and wish to negotiate with Israel.
so what will u say next ? that Israel planted agents that went through a retoric argument classes in the mosad and sent to kill those fatah members so that palestinians will scream that the hamas is bad ?


and yes, i do have arab friends. this might come as a shock to u as well, no ?

i have druze friends, and i have christian friends and i have muslim friends as well.
i'v been traveling for a while outside of Israel, and i'm a friendly type of person.
i also happened to live in an area surounded by arab villages and i have a few friends, verry good people, from those villages and even neighbours in my own street that r muslims.

i also served in the army with druze people and made verry good friends, and i also work with druze in civilian life.

we also have thai people here in Israel, philipins, romanians, iranians, morrocons, ethyopeans, spanish, swedish and ofcourse americans.
and guess what, they r not fighting each other.

u may start building u'r own wall around urself, al. i will even volountier to come and help u.

about the red cross, i don't know why we don't want to have a red cross, maybe because we r verry proud in our own "red david's shield". our symbol is not the cross. we have our own symbols. as well as u.

and i'm not familier with what happened in wwII with the red cross, please tell me.

and what patern might that be ? of supporting my country ?
i do support my country, because it's mine and i'm a part of it.
i also know about the mistakes and i'm not afraid to say that we make mistakes. the army made mistakes and the government made mistakes, and the government will pay for it's mistakes, and olmert and peretz probobly won't last for long in their current possitions.
u know why ?
because the people will decide about their fait, not olmert and not peretz.
but i will not move from my stand that hisballa, as u try to show it, is the rightous army of lebanon and it's "resistance" against Israel is a rightous fight.
because it's not. and u might not recognise it because of u'r pattern of being "patriotic" and deffending the "great" hisballa, no mater what.

Omer (israeli) said...

To anyone?

Didn't "Magen david" join the red cross lately? i thought i read about it. anyone know?

chuck said...

al,

one more thing that might put u in shock.
r u sitting down ?
i don't know if u know this, but we have palestinian secreteries even inside the government, part of governmental disccusions and decisions.

not many Israelies aprove of that, because they claim we r at war with the palestinians and should not have the enemy inside the government. but they represent a part of the people of Israel.

Dimitry said...

omer

Yes, this year. Check here (god bless Wikipedia), the Involvement with the Red Cross section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magen_David_Adom

chuck said...

ho, and i forgot to ask, al, do u have any Israeli friends or jewish friends ?

chuck said...

any other mosad agents like us that u know ...?
al ?

Annasru Ata said...

yes we know u have palestinians in ur government. they are the ones who get democratically thrown out of the parliment or meating when they oppose ur leader.

democracy is subjective and if this is what u call democratic then well done ur all for democracy. US announces who is democratic and whos not. i remembered a time b4 bush when syria was democratic along with jordan, egypt, saudi arabia. now there not bcs they have no role left in the new middle east. but seriously US labels jordan and others as democratic. these are the weak countries they trade oil for their seats. their presidents/kings will always be there and they will never oppose US bcs they are afraid for their positions.

chuck said...

as far as i know these countries u mentiond were never called democratic. ejypt is the only country that tries to claim for democratic elections but the have mubaraq mysteriously elected every time.

Israel does claim to be a democratic country and the people of Israel, as weel as the media, protects this democracy verry fanatically.

about the palestinians in the government, well, if u watch the Israeli kneset channel u will understand why they r being thrown out. but they r not the only ones thrown out of these meetings.
in the meeting that u probobly reffer to, when olmert was speaking and ahmad tibi was shouting at him, tibi wasn't the only one thrown out. there was another Israeli minister from the right wing that was thrown out for shouting back at tibi. they both were warned 3 times then kicked out. this is how it works.

chuck said...

and we don't need the us to tell us if we r democratic or not. we r verry different then the us.

dunes said...

Annasru Ata said...

yes we know u have palestinians in ur government. they are the ones who get democratically thrown out of the parliment or meating when they oppose ur leader.

democracy is subjective and if this is what u call democratic then well done ur all for democracy. US announces who is democratic and whos not. i remembered a time b4 bush when syria was democratic along with jordan, egypt, saudi arabia. now there not bcs they have no role left in the new middle east. but seriously US labels jordan and others as democratic. these are the weak countries they trade oil for their seats. their presidents/kings will always be there and they will never oppose US bcs they are afraid for their positions.


lets get the facts stright
a democracy is a goverment elected by the people and that all civillians are considerd equals in the eyes of the law and no one is above the low
if you take this mesure and look through it in the middle east then israel is the only democratic natio

and muslim/arab israeli parliement members often speak against the goverment but still no one kicks them out - why is that ? becuase we are a trueley free country , dont be fooled by your inciting leaders you have no idea what is freedom of speech if you live in an arab/muslim state becuase everything you say is looked uppon and if you say the worng word then a fanatic arab/muslim will probobley get mad and try to kill you in israel it doesnt matter what you say no one will hurt you . keep that in mind
i can go in the streets of tel aviv and shout israel is a murderer and jews are asshouls. and no one will say anything to me
so next time keep in mind israel is a free state,.

Omer (israeli) said...

Annsuru ata,

ppl get kicked out of parliment session, but not from the parliment itslef. Only the people with the vote can do that.

Usally parliment members arab or other (didn't they tell you, not only arabs pm get kicked out?) get kicked out becasue they shout when someone else is talking on the stand. They shout to get attension, and deliver a message. If they get kicked out, its published, and everyone wants to know why he got so mad. Its called: politics. These people whatever arab or not continue there 4 year elected period. They make their own statments and in turn also get shouts from the seats. The only bad things that happens is that you miss the guy's speach.
This war was very emotinal, and there plenty of times for the arab pm's to get their message. This was one of the ways.

You really are making a big deal out of nothing.

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