Wednesday, August 09, 2006

a letter from home

A dear friend sent this e-mail to me earlier today. This war needs to stop now!

Raja habibi,


I miss you a lot and sometimes I sit and think how I missed a fabulous summer with you....

They have been bombing Saida’s Palestinian camp (which is close to my parents) and the situation is not promising at all. They can not get out because of several reasons, mainly because of my father’s condition. He is still too weak to move around and too stubborn to leave.

The children had their first fright night this morning when they bombed the camp. Electricity hours are getting less and less, and it is difficult in the evenings when the mosquitoes are around and not able to use insecticide plates (because of lack of electricity).

My sleeping pattern has gone wacky and I have mild depression. A combination of: job -related insecure future; being locked in my friend’s apartment (away from Beirut), transportation is too hard for all because there is little fuel; unable to work and get around (as a result); the war itself (concerns about family's life and father’s well being); seeing what is going on in other towns and areas of Lebanon which is really really sad and sickening....

what can I say?! God is placing us and testing us in another war like situation but this time the responsibilities have shifted in my family.

...

58 comments:

Chris from lebanon said...

I know how your friend feels. It is as if time and space are at a halt and fear and bordem are the only faithful compagnons to us all.

I say again and again that this is the result you get when a fanatic, stubborn, frustrated group of peaople hijack a country and its inncocent people in the name of their principal or simply just to make a point.

To all of you out of lebanon, thats the tragedy that unfolds when there is no order, weak state, a state in a state and fanatism all put together which makes this deadly cocktail.

Lebanon urgently needs to get rid of Hezbollah and all armed forces within the country. It basicly needs a miracle.

tears for lebanon said...

There are two videos that have made an impact on me, I invite you to watch them.

The first video is from Galloway. Why I think this is important for the Israelis to view...is because it really does depict how so many of us feel in the world, it represents my thoughts and feelings too. I invite you to watch the video if you would like to try to understand why so many around the world feel that Israel is not justified in their actions. I know this may cause controversary...I am open to your responses.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html


The second video I hope you will view are the reasons why I am praying for an immediate cease fire now...and for negotiations of a resolution later.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14258.htm

Salam

Loli said...

Chris,
HA is not likely to stop, nor is Israel. Is there any reaction from the government on that? We seem to be headed for another month of extreme violence. I haven't called my family in two days, and would like to hear from someone who lives there.

Loli said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
tears for lebanon said...

loli,

I wanted to thank you for your comments to me over the last days. It is true, we take differing postions, but I do indeed wish you well, and peace for all. My regards to your family overseas.

chris
curosity has killed this cat,did you happen to read my letter to you the other day?

Loli said...

Tears for Lebanon,
Thank you! What is going on in Lebanon is utterly sad, and a few pictures are more powerful than a thousand speeches.

I wish we could stop all this now.

peace to all of us

levine said...

Hello friends, i won't say much for now except that i invite you to read my comments on modernisticviews.blogspot.com and you are welcome to comment and reflect for yourselves.

Chris from lebanon said...

To loli,

These are very difficult times loli. Siniora's proposal to move the army is a very courageous one and brings the issue to a lebanese one without any interference from outiside. For us all, its means that he's ready to stand up to Hezb. But USA and others are thinking otherwise. Too bad.

Chris from lebanon said...

To Tears for lebanon

Just did. Thank your for those warm comments.

But i just answered one of your comments on the other topic.

I don't think you are going to agree with me. But it doesn't mean that i don't appreciate our conversation, to the contrary.

EdoRiver said...

The Internet has created alot of spectators. and more of us are feeling connected to the people we communicate with. I have done alot of reading since I started commenting on Iraqi blogs 9 months ago. My viewpoint hasn't changed but my appreciation for the complexity has. We watch and in turn create alot of words. There is a certain level of...addiction? I'm not sure. I do think about all the prayers that monks and priests and people have said over the years and centuries..It would seem that all those words and the time spent praying for peace would have changed this world into a paradise by now...if only words were sufficient...if only words were sufficient. It is so much easier to type these words than to actually do something. The next stage won't happen unless we do something, together, that unites people, to change conditions offline.

Loli said...

Chris,
I think it is clear the US wants, or is allowing, Israel to finish up the job. But will it?? As I have said before, nobody will win. It doesn't take rocket science to see that. In the mean time, more innocent lives wasted on both sides of the border, and too much destruction...

Chris from lebanon said...

loli,

Indeed it is surprising how Hezb. is standing its ground against Israel. That alone gives you an idea as to what extent they were preparing for this war or for another. Otherwise, why all this training and weapons for?..

Although it is very stupid for Israel to target lebanese infrastructure and some civilian areas. We all think that they were like a loose canon hiting everywhere like savages.

Now he hear they want to step up their operations. Well, if they want to go at it let them fight it out in the jnoub soldier to soldier.

harsh words i know, but what else can i say when survival(as Israel says) meet fanatism (Hezb. trade mark). Thats the cocktail loli..a deadly one.

Loli said...

Yes, and I raise the following question: Is there a morality of war? There should be one. War used to be waged in battle fields. Times have changed, and since there is no such thing as a battle field in modern times, rather heavily populated areas, the war paradigm should change.

Chas said...

Raja,
my heart goes out to you and your beleagured friend.
I write letters, I blog, I try to stay on top of events, I provoke and cajole, looking for cracks in the logic of war, but yet I feel helpless. Helpless to help, to make a difference when a difference is needed ( I echo Edoriver here)
One thing I promise you, when this is over I will do whatever I can to help Lebanon get back on its feet and rekindle the hope that burned so bright. I will not forget.

Chas

Loli said...

Chris,
My next question is: What does Nasralla hope to achieve with his firing rockets on Israel? Does he also believe he's going to win??

Chris from lebanon said...

War is destruction. Hatred is destruction. There isn't anything else more destructive than those two loli.

And we lebanese are the chosen ones for all matters to be settled on our soil.

Palestenian cause, arab cause, Syria's power trip, Iran awakening, Arabs pride and on and on...

ANd you know why loli?..Because we are they only arab people truely seeking for democracy and peace.

People are frustrated that we are interested in what happens in hollywood than whats goin on in Israel or in syria or whatever.

People don't realize the toll 20 years of war it takes on individuals. We didn't want to turn to be savages after that war ..all we wanted was for us to live happily. An 1 blogger told me, when i expressed that, that i was a tiny lebanese minority attracted by the westwern life!!

DO you beleive hat?..I HAVE NO RIGHT TO HAVE A PEACEFUL LIFE...according to that blogger.

Chris from lebanon said...

Loli,

The rockets are symbolic for Nasralla, although they killed some 35 innovent civilians on the other side of the border.

They are an invitation for the Israeli army to conduct an all out ground war.

He wants to tighten his grasp over lebanon by making s stand against Israel.

I think he personaly, when things will go wrong for Hezb (which i beleive they wil), wants to die as a martyr and keep his legacy on.

Otherwise, if the war stops now, his popularity will make it much more difficult for the lebanese government to regain its control over the country
and that, loli, may end up in a civil war.

I hear Christian and sunni leaders making some very courageous comments about Hezb and the hell it opened on us. CNN don't show you that but we hear them more and more lately.

Loli said...

Chris,

I agree, and my question, really was rhetoric. It is also clear Israel had all this planned and was looking for the bait to eliminate this constant provcation by HA and Iran, and give a lesson to anyone who may think of threatening Israel again. The problem is, both sides undersestimated each other. And we're paying the price. Nasrallah may not wish to die like a martyr. He may flee to Iran for that matter. Remember Aoun how he was shouting he was going to liberate all Lebanon, and next thing we know he left us behind amidst destruction, under stronger Syrian influence, and went to France to enjoy life in all safety.

kufir and proud said...

"no such thing as a battle field in modern times, rather heavily populated areas"

could say the same thing for the wilderness, the rural lands etc etc.. and the more they pack us in, will that lead to more insanity?

Loli said...

kufir and proud said...
Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant.

kufir and proud said...

oh was just commenting how there soon won't be any areas that aren't heavily populated :P

Chris from lebanon said...

Indeed you right loli.

Have to go now, almost dawn.

See you and peace to us all.

Bye

Loli said...

Kufir
Thanks for the clarification.

Chris,
I don't think we will have a civil war. I really don't. We have to avoid falling in this Syrian trap.

Loli said...

Chris,
Stay safe. Peace to you and all those who are suffering the loss of a loved one.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

Raja - Sorry to hear about your friend's plight. Horrible stuff. My thoughts will be with your friend and his/her family.

While I realize the vast majority of Lebanese are insanely pissed off at the Israelis right now, is there any chance of some effective collaboration with them at this time in order to shorten the time to ceasefire? One strategically placed bunker busting bomb on top of Nasrallah could lead to the pretext for a ceasefire. I've heard the Israelis have many eyes and ears on the ground in Lebanon. Clearly not enough in both quantity and quality. Are there not Lebanese with knowledge of where Hezbollah leaders are who can communicate this information to the Israelis?
Lets be honest, if Hezbollah is strengthened both Israel AND Lebanon are weakened. I say work together and deal with your common problem now rather than later.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

Stay Safe Chris From Lebanon.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Tears From Lebanon

Here is another video of Galloway which I like better:

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=george+Galloway&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&qp_p=george+galloway&b=11&oid=98272a1add147692&rurl=www.ifilm.com&qp_p=george+galloway

Also here is another jewel from the mouth of Mr. Galloway:
“I’m no friend of the Syrian regime, but Syrian troops in Lebanon maintain stability and protect the country from Israel. Lebanon is an Arab country with a border with the Zionist state and that is a very dangerous place.”
–George Galloway, defending Syria’s occupation of Lebanon less than five months before it ended (The Lebanon Daily Star, 12/7/04)


It seems to me like Mr. Galloway completely forgot about the mass graves found outside the Beirut headquarters of Syrian intelligence. I remember that day clearly and how the first word that came to my mind was not 'stability'

Also in the past 6 years the border was very quite. No Israeli troops, no Syrian troops... but unfortunately as we see now, Hezbollah troops.


The fact is that Hezbollah is sacrificing Lebanon for Syria's ambitions and George Galloway could not care less. Is this the man you support? cause if so we are in deep @#$%...

The Middle East News Addict said...

Also I do not need some pumpous English man that ate from Saddam's hands while Shi'a were being shot in the streets to come and express my thoughts. I can do that very well on my own and I am sure that you can too.

Loli said...

Chris,
Forgot to comment on your 9:33 PM
post.
I disagree with that blogger that we are a minority seeking to enjoy life, of course not! What I think is that HA is a minority seeking completely irrational and unrealistic goals.

Loli said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
tears for lebanon said...

middle east news addict

well at least you are not quoting a rap singer to me this time ;)
(that still makes me smile)

My request for you to watch the video was not to convince you to see as i do, but rather for you to understand why i do not see as you.
I appreciate you watching it.

As far as Galloway expressing thoughts for me (in regards to this video) ....no, i can not say 'for me'...but with me....
and now you and i are also communicating. This is a long way for us from our first 'chat'.

I look forward to more, but now its time for me to get some sleep, I have an early workday.
salam.

kufir and proud said...

lol nice comrade al-galloway link lololol
yes but also using galloway as your vehicle to communicating, you're giving away your own credibility
surely there has to be one white guy out there on a video that is more rational to use as a vehicle? if not then what might that say about your view?

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Tears for Lebanon
Yes, I suppose you are right. How would we communicate without 'Gorgious George'? ;)

Speaking of Gorgious George, I invite everybody to watch me and Tears for Lebanon's videos of George and vote on the better wardrobe

I think I will also turn in now in hope of waking up to better news...

p.s.
I agree with you Tears for Lebanon, this is a much more fun form of conversation. We may not always agree but it does not mean we cannot have a few laughs... I will also look forward to our next conversation

Salam, Shalom, Peace

abou al jamejem said...

For all of you guys who don't like what Huzeballa are doing in Lebanon you should check this blog: http://lebanonisfirst.blogspot.com/

Akiva M said...

Tears,

That Galloway piece is an abortion of an interview. He starts with Shebaa Farms (which the UN determined was Lebanese, after the Lebanese government and Israel both agreed to have the UN's ruling be binding). He then compares the US selling arms to Israel (a state) to Iran providing arms to Hezbollah (a non-state militia loathed by more than half of Lebanon and using it's arsenal to de facto usurp the decision making authority of an elected government), repeats the canard about 1000s of Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails (though Hezbollah has repeatedly announced that its goal is one particular prisoner, the murderer of a four year old girl prior to any Israeli invasion of Lebanon) and - after going on and on about how Hezbollah is a Lebanese resistance movement - starts spouting off about Hezbollah fighting for the Palestinians.

In short, to anyone who doesn't already believe every word he's saying, it's a fairly transparent propaganda piece from an extremist loon. Hell, his position is that the original Hezbollah attack was justified - from what I've seen on various blogs and reports, not even most Lebanese go that far.

Akiva M said...

Chris,

"Indeed it is surprising how Hezb. is standing its ground against Israel. That alone gives you an idea as to what extent they were preparing for this war or for another. Otherwise, why all this training and weapons for?..

Although it is very stupid for Israel to target lebanese infrastructure and some civilian areas. We all think that they were like a loose canon hiting everywhere like savages.

Now he hear they want to step up their operations. Well, if they want to go at it let them fight it out in the jnoub soldier to soldier.

harsh words i know, but what else can i say when survival(as Israel says) meet fanatism (Hezb. trade mark). Thats the cocktail loli..a deadly one."

I agree completely (and have said so on my blog, weeks ago [/shameless plug]). Now reports are coming out that Israeli generals are questioning the strategy of relying on air strikes and not going in harder on the ground (which would have cost more Israeli lives but less civillian lives, and would likely have been more effective in preventing losses).

My theory - Israel very much wanted to avoid the psychological and PR problems of a massive ground invasion of Lebanon, so it took to the skies. In doing so, it created another massive PR problem and still ended up needing to go in on the ground. A particularly tragic irony, if the success of Hezbollah last time around in implanting in the Israeli psyche a deep desire not to reoccupy Lebanon was a key motivating factor in the possibly unecessary destruction of Lebanon by air this time around.

To all of you actually in the middle of this - you're in my prayers, Israeli and lebanese both. Stay safe (I know, for me, you'll try ;)

Lirun said...

israeli news flash on tv this morning

repeated mentions of HA agreeing to lebanon's propoosal.. but why isnt the government saying what it thinks? why is it just saying that its "interesting"? where is the "peace now" movement who helped drive us to peace with egypt? is everyone blinded by the explosions? we have an opportunity here.. it cant be wasted!!

my government lost 15 of kids last night.. i dont care that 18 is the age of majority.. how can they serve these kids on an alter?

rockets can be replaced.. this is the science of rockets.. its not rocket science.. these kids cannot.. and the people killed in our counter attacks or pre-emptive attacks.. or whatever the heck we call them.. they're gone forever..

i have stopped following the casualties and deaths.. 1 person here 2 people there.. then you're told 10 were hit in a go.. and you know they mean killed but they dont want to shock you.. 1 here or 2 there almost becomes tolerable.. until you finish your day and somone breaks the myth you've fallen for of single digits..

i hate the fact that these deaths are too frequent to be followed.. i hate the fact that these people cant even be honoured.. so many names.. so many faces..

18 is a vital age.. an age of adventure and excitement.. all these excited people lost.. how are we letting this happen.. where are we going?

i know many people think this is the only way.. in israel and outside as well..

but this is the salt of our county and its being carelessly sprinkled on blood..

news reports are increasingly quoting israelis that are saying "there is more than one solution".. we love our kids and we love our soldiers.. and we strengthen and hug them through the nightmare that they are going through.. but there is more than one solution..

wishing peace on us without delay.. my heart goes out to everyone that is suffering because of this violence wherever you are..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Sherri said...

akiva m,

All of us in the US should realize by now that our politicians and news media have agendas and they often try to sell us lies and deceptions. Just look at the Iraq war.

The present conflict beween Israel and Hezbollah/Lebanon is not about a war on terror. It is just another chapter in the Arab Israeli conflicts that began when Israel was formed as a country in 1948. This invasion by Israel into Lebanon is the 7th invasion of its kind.

The first step in seeing the truth here is identifying the nature of the conflict.

The United Nations passed multiple resolutions identifying the boundaries of Israel and there were Arab wars that followed. Land was taken and not given back, even after the United Nations Resolutions said it had to be returned. Arab and Muslim countries viwed Israel as their enemy. I think both Sunni and Shiite Muslim religious groups generally still view Israel in that light. Hamas started out as an organization funded by Sunni Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia. The Palestinian Muslims are Sunni Muslims. Hezbollah is a political group and its members are Shiite Muslims. It is supported by Iran.

What type of organization is Hezbollah? I found some interesting articles on electroniclebanon web site about this. One thing I noticed, despite numerous articles addressing Hezbollah's function and role, nowhere is it stated there primary goal is the destruction of Israel. I don't think that can be anyone's realistic goal. I think perhaps it is just rhetoric and we in the west are focusing too much on this. There is also an article on that website arguing that Hezbollah does not target civilians, that the attempts were to actually target military targets.

I think Hezbollah has existed within Lebanon as a group providing a real function for the country, the resistance to Israel.
They were formed during a prior Israeli occupation and served as a resistance organization now for about 20 years. Hezbollah members are Lebanese Shiite Muslims and live in Shiite ares with their families. The population of shiites is 40% or more. I actually read somewhere Shiites were the majority. There is another Shiite secular group. I do not know what percentage of Shiites make up that group.

In Lebanon and Arab countries, Hezbollah is not viewed as a terrorist organization. They are viwed as an Islamic Resistance organization, the goal of which is to defend Lebanon from Israel and a group committed to reclaiming Lebanon land held by Israel. Remember, there are still some issues of land Israel holds that wa staken in prior wars.

The Palestinian conflict does not directly involve Lebanon. However, in the past six months or so (maybe longer), there has been an increasing level of violence and hostilities. And there appeared to be an attempt of Hamas and Hezbollah to work together, with Iran stepping forward to help Hamas financially. This was a new development. The Palestinians are Sunni Muslims.

Both Hezbollah and Hamas view themselves as Israeli Resistance groups. They both have long histories of fighting with Israel over land boundaries. The Palestinians situation has become a humanitarian crisis itself. Under occupation, they live in very oppressed circumstances. Israel uses chemical weapons against children, kills children who throw rocks at soldiers, have targeted assassinations against Palestinians they view as enemies to Israel, bomb civilians homes frequently, severely curtail freedom of movement of the Palestinians within the Occupied Territories, and recently have been trying to deprive them of money and ahve been arresting and jailing government officials.


Iran is a country of Shiite Muslims. Hezbollah is a Shiite Muslim group. The US gives Israel money and arms. They are both democracies.

I know that a United Nations Resolution said Hezbollah should be disarmed. But Lebanon was probably forced to agree to that and had no physical power or real willpower either to disarm Hezbollah.

John said...

Sherri,

If the HZ is only targeting "army bases", why did he urge the israeli arabs to get out of the CITY of haifa?

abou al jamejem said...

HA is not going to agree on any sieze fire till their masters in Iran and Syria agree. Iran is the biggest winner from this conflict. before this conflict started, the Iranian nucluar program was headline news on all the news channels in the world; after the conflict started they don't even mentioned anymore. Guys the Huzeballa's game is allready exposed, we need to disarm them so all the Lebanese can live in peace. For more information check out this blog: http://lebanonisfirst.blogspot.com/. it's free from all the huzeballa supporters.

Sherri said...

John,
I did not say army bases, first. Even if there were only military targets, civilians could still be hit and warned of this ahead.

Israel has been warning civilians to leave areas where it expects to bomb, with its leaflets.It then bombs the civilian areas.

Sherri said...

abou al jamejem,

Hezbollah has already said it is in agreement with the Lebanon sieze fire plan. And I don't think Hezbollah can be disarmed. It's like all those groups in Iraq that will not give up their arms. Why? Because they don't trust anyone, including the Lebanese army, to defend them. They might become a part or a branch of the army? As a branch of the army,they could remain a separate unit under government control. One of the articles I read mentioned their separateness as a militia was so that they would be available for alternative type engagements. Concerning the present Lebanese army, I already read somewhere that the army is mostly Shiite.

kufir and proud said...

Does anyone really think Nasrallah is gonna endorse his being out 1 cozy job? Really? Hell Castro is on his deathbed and doesn't want to be so commital as to hang "them" up permanently. C'mon be serious now.

Sherri said...

I saw an interview about two Israeli soldiers who refused to go to war on Democracy Today. They were put in jail. They claimed they did not want to have to fire on civilains. A brother of one of the soldiers was interviewed and he said he knew of 2 pilots who purposefully missed targets, because they did not want to kill civilians. He also was concerned about the intelligence that was leading Israel to pick targets and thought sometimes they were told to hit residential areas jsust because that was the intent.

Lirun said...

sherri

the focus of the pilots was not the failed israeli intelligence.. their focus was pacificism and their inability to live with the fact of having been in a war..

defectors are jailed in any country.. its not like they our outcast of society and violently dragged away to a dungeon..

forever boggled by your inability to see any moral flaw with the HA..

you discredit yourself continuously.. sounding more like something between hillside song church mixed with saatchi and saatchi as a joint campaign of propaganda for HA..

wishing peace to us all..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
blame is not a gesture of peace - its retrospective waste of time and energy

Sherri said...

Can someone tell me from a religious viewpoint how the Jewish religion views war and civilian targets? I guess your views are essentially the Old Testament of the Christain Bible or your version of the Old Testament. Your book is the Torah, is that right.

Thinking about the Old Testament, all that stands out in my mind is a psalm of David, when God is unhappy with David for shedding too much blood in a battle. I can't name the Psalm number and am too tired to find it. Of course, there were many wars documented and some good kings and some bad kings.

What about the Koran? Can someone tell me your views on war and civilians?

Concerning Chritianity, there is a "just war" doctrine that I think was formulated by the Catholic Church that is some type of weighing test. I have some books about this. I remember reading an analysis that concluded that the last Iraq war did not meet that test. The Pope was against the war too, as was most of the rest of the world.

I have problems with war, personally. Jesus said love your enemies and turn the other cheek in the Sermon on the Mount.(Some people interpret the Sermon On The Mount as applying only to man's personal relationships with each other, and not to wars or administering law and order) He never advocated wars. He also was completely unpolitical. While he criticized church officials he felt did not follow God, he never criticized government officials. He said nothing specifically about war, but he repeated over and over again, his new command, "Love one another." Concerning taxes owed ones government, he did say give to Caeser what is Caeser's and God what is God's.

Sherri said...

lirun,

The story I saw, reported on Democracy Now on LINK TV with Amy Goodman, included an interview with an ex-soldier. He said he had been jailed twice himself for a month each time for not going to war. I think he was not a pilot himself (he said he flew a helicopter, I think), but he was talking about 2 soldiers that had refused to go to war, one of whom was his brother. He went on to discuss two pilots who had gone to war who had said they deliberately missed targets because they did not want to take a chance on hitting civilians. He then said pilots had concerns about civilians, they wondered if there was clear intelligence that their targets were military and not civilian. And he said they (the pilots)sometimes thought the desire was to target residences/ apartment buildings.

Really, I am not trying to express a viewpoint by this. I am just trying to repeat what I heard in this interview.

I don't know if you saw the same show as I did or not.

Lirun said...

by the way.. the "old testament" - as you call it - is our torah.. we have not cherry picked the "christian bible"..

however.. after we finished compiling the 5 books of the torah (again what you refer to as the "old testament") we proceeded to write several other series of books..

im not religious - so if anyone is please take a balanced approach at correcting me if i am wrong - but jewish tradition includes an art of war.. we are not supposed to harm women and children.. we are not supposed to uproot fields and we are not supposed to loot people over whom we prevail at war..

however.. unlike the manner in which some other religions are practiced.. judaism is largely a self modernising and reflective path.. the concept of "if you see someone coming to kill you - dont kill them first" is an old jewish maxim..

our traditions are complex and if you were to listen to what the rabbis have to say these days about the war you will note that they split.. rabbis are not holy men.. they are merely learned.. and they too are at liberty to apply their political interpretation..

therefore for me as a secular jewish person - i look at my personal sense of morality.. in the context of my history and tradition and in the broader context of my regional issues and i form a view..

but lets hear it from you sherri

if you were us and you saw a rocket launcher on a civilian building knowing good and well that it would be used to launch a rocket at you in the next few hours.. would you bomb it? would you send a force of engineers to dismantle it with screw drivers and welders? just for them to be slaughtered and lynched? what would you do.. i dont need your answer in a comment - because any rational person would seek to remove a deadly threat..

but thank you for asking.. i hope you have listened to my answer

know that i want peace

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Lirun said...

oops i meant "dont WAIT BUT RATHER kill them first"

Omer (israeli) said...

Sherri,
I just want to mention that Israel is a secular nation. The orthodox have some say via the political process. But according to the "orthodox" view woman should dress modestly (same in Islam Btw). Yet, have you ever seen a disco in Tel-aviv? or just walking on the streets of jerusale? We are ploralistic state with many idea's mixinig. Israel is vastly secular thou. Our laws are mostly secular.
But we do use our cultural context to express our ideas:
Rabi Akiva (from talmud) said that if you needed to sum up the torah in one sentence, that would be:
"love thy other, as thy love yourself"

Dimitry said...

sherri
It is just another chapter in the Arab Israeli conflicts that began when Israel was formed as a country in 1948.

And I assume the pogroms in which Arabs slaughtered hundreds of Jews in the first half of the 20th century were just for laughts?


You were given numerous sourced that uncover HA's agenda and intentions. Not finding it by yourself (I somehow suspect you researched very specific sources) doesn't mean it isn't there.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Akiva M

Get yuo facts straight: the UN determined that the Sheba Farms are SYRIAN, not Lebanese. Today Israeli sources reported that Barak offered to close a deal with Lebanon on them provided Assad signs it off in the UN to Lebanon. Despite all the rhetoric about them being Lebanese, Assad would not sign (probably for fear Lebanon would not give it to him later)

Rodolfo Poliak said...

Lirun, the christian have a bible, its divided in two, old testament, and new testament. Dont be so paranoic.

Peace to all of you in ME.

Rodo, from Argentina.

Akiva M said...

News Addict - sorry, that was a typo; I meant to write "NOT Lebanese" (reread the post, that should be obvious :)

Sherri:

>>>The present conflict beween Israel and Hezbollah/Lebanon is not about a war on terror. It is just another chapter in the Arab Israeli conflicts that began when Israel was formed as a country in 1948. This invasion by Israel into Lebanon is the 7th invasion of its kind.<<<

ignoring the comment about numbers, saying this goes back to 1948 is pretty much right (though it of course goes long beyond that as well). Which is exactly Israel's point - this isn't about territory, it's about a consistent desire to reverse 1948 and end its existence as a nation.

>>The first step in seeing the truth here is identifying the nature of the conflict.<<

correct. Now, tell me, Sherri, why Israel should acquiesce in its destruction, or why I should support those who would like to see it wiped off the map. Or, alternatively, stop posting this bs propaganda. One or the other, Sherri - your choice.

>>>The United Nations passed multiple resolutions identifying the boundaries of Israel and there were Arab wars that followed. Land was taken and not given back, even after the United Nations Resolutions said it had to be returned.<<<

Whoops, no. The UN resolutions said land had to be returned IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE. Very clearly not "immediately given back, no conditions." Syria has never been ready for peace with Israel, hence Israel has no obligation under the resolutions you are citing to return the Golan Heights or the Shebaa Farms to Syria. Egypt made peace and got back the Sinai. Jordan made peace and didn't want the West Bank back.

>>>. . .
What type of organization is Hezbollah? I found some interesting articles on electroniclebanon web site about this. One thing I noticed, despite numerous articles addressing Hezbollah's function and role, nowhere is it stated there primary goal is the destruction of Israel. I don't think that can be anyone's realistic goal. I think perhaps it is just rhetoric and we in the west are focusing too much on this.<<<

Sure . . . "look, I know we've said repeatedly that we'd like to kill you all, but hey, you took that seriously? Just because we've, yeah, tried in the past? Come on - can't you tell we were just joking?"

Spare me, Sherri. If Arab loons want to rant and rave about the destruction of Israel and jews everywhere, they lose the right to complain when they get taken at their word.

>>>There is also an article on that website arguing that Hezbollah does not target civilians, that the attempts were to actually target military targets.<<<

Which should tell you exactly how trustworthy that source is. What, ~100% of their rockets have missed their targets? Was Nasrallah's open statement about raining rockets on Israeli towns, including Haifa - clearly civillian, not military targets - another one of his rhetorical flourishes? Was it pure coincidence that all of Hezbollah's "misses" have conveniently fulfilled those promises to attack civillians? Did they accidentally put ball bearings in their warheads, which just coincidentally happen to be effective only against soft targets like humans but are ineffective against soldiers in armor and other military targets? (cut to: interior, Hezbollah bunker:

Hezbollah commander: Hey, Abdullah, what's this?? (he waves to a rack of warheads) Didn't I tell you to load up the rockets?

Abdullah: But I did, sir - I used the pile that was over there. (he waves to an empty spot on the ground)

Commander: Oh no! What have you done? Those were the anti-personnel warheads packed with ball bearings. You idiot - those won't even hurt the soldiers!

Abdullah: And now if we miss and accidentally hit a city, people will think we actually want to kill civillians, when really we have no such intention . . . (fade to black))

Do you honestly believe any of that? Can anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together believe any of that?

And if you do, how do you explain Nasrallah's apology to the family of the two Israeli Arab kids he killed in Nazareth which - roughly paraphrased - went "sorry, we only meant to kill the jews"

>>>I think Hezbollah has existed within Lebanon as a group providing a real function for the country, the resistance to Israel.
They were formed during a prior Israeli occupation and served as a resistance organization now for about 20 years. Hezbollah members are Lebanese Shiite Muslims and live in Shiite ares with their families. The population of shiites is 40% or more. I actually read somewhere Shiites were the majority. There is another Shiite secular group. I do not know what percentage of Shiites make up that group.<<<

And . . . the Israelis withdrew. Occupation was over. Good night, time to pack up and go home. But they're still fighting the war to reverse 1948, so that wasn't going to happen.

>>In Lebanon and Arab countries, Hezbollah is not viewed as a terrorist organization.<<

Hey, you know what? Some people in arab countries don't view al-Qaeda as a terrorist organization. They're wrong. It happens.

>>Remember, there are still some issues of land Israel holds that wa staken in prior wars.<<

Not according to disinterested UN cartographers whose decision both Israel and Lebanon agreed to abide by. Lebanon doesn't get to change their mind after the ruling goes against them. And they didn't. A lunatic militia not under Lebanese government control did. Congratulations - you've won yourselves a bloody war.

>>>The Palestinian conflict does not directly involve Lebanon. However, in the past six months or so (maybe longer), there has been an increasing level of violence and hostilities. And there appeared to be an attempt of Hamas and Hezbollah to work together, with Iran stepping forward to help Hamas financially. This was a new development. The Palestinians are Sunni Muslims.<<<

Correct. Because, as you pointed out, this isn't a war about territory. It's a war to reverse 1948. What do Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Iran and Hezbollah have in common? They've all openly declared that their goal is a world without Israel.

>>>Both Hezbollah and Hamas view themselves as Israeli Resistance groups. They both have long histories of fighting with Israel over land boundaries.<<<

So close to getting something right, then you had to include the word "boundaries".

>>>The Palestinians situation has become a humanitarian crisis itself. Under occupation, they live in very oppressed circumstances. Israel uses chemical weapons against children, kills children who throw rocks at soldiers, have targeted assassinations against Palestinians they view as enemies to Israel, bomb civilians homes frequently, severely curtail freedom of movement of the Palestinians within the Occupied Territories, and recently have been trying to deprive them of money and ahve been arresting and jailing government officials.<<<

and on and on and on. Israel uses chemical weapons? Odd, that nobody has ever managed to provide any evidence of that at all. Throwing rocks at soldiers? In the US, that's a riot; if a Palestinian does it, he's "protesting". Add in a few molotov cocktails and make one rock several hundred, and they are trying to kill the soldiers. Try to kill a soldier, he'll fire at you. It's a pretty simple equation, I'd think.

I love this quote, btw: "have targeted assassinations against Palestinians they view as enemies to Israel"

Tell me - how many Palestinian targets of such operations have not been terrorists? Is there a single recorded incident where anyone said "why was he targeted? He wasn't a hamas member."

Nope, not one.

Arresting and jailing government officials? Absolutely. Electing a terrorist doesn't give him immunity from prosecution as a terrorist. Funding? Yeah, why shouldn't Israel funnel money to Hamas (other than, you know, the fact that Hamas uses the money to attack Israel)? You're right, that's just silly.

>>Iran is a country of Shiite Muslims. Hezbollah is a Shiite Muslim group. The US gives Israel money and arms. They are both democracies.<<

and if you can't see the difference between arming a state and arming a militia that then uses those arms to usurp the decision making authority of the elected government of their home state . . . well, you're less intelligent than you seem (and sherri, if you bought the "Hezbollah isn't aiming at civillians" line that's saying a whole hell of a lot).

>>>I know that a United Nations Resolution said Hezbollah should be disarmed. But Lebanon was probably forced to agree to that and had no physical power or real willpower either to disarm Hezbollah. <<<

Doesn't really matter whether Lebanon agreed to it or not; that's the point of binding security council resolutions. In any event, have you bothered reading - let alone internalizing - the views of the many Lebanese who loathe Hezbollah and wish it had not remained as an armed militia? Or just thought about the idea of an american militia - say, the Aryan nation - armed with missile launchers? You think that would be a good thing? Be serious.

Sherri said...

akiva m,

I diagree with you about the nature of the current conflict Israel has with Lebanon and Hezbollah and the conflict Israel has with Hamas and the Palestinians (Hamas the organization which has control within the Palestinian government). 0
The nature of the conflict between Hezbullah and Israel is Lebanon, the boundaries of Lebanon, the Sheeba Farms, and issues arising from prior conflicts such as the release of prisoners.

The nature of the conflict between Hamas, who represent the Palestinians, and Israel, is their desire to have their own state in the Occupied Territories.

Demonizing your enemies, Hezbullah and Hamas, and labelling them as terrorists and refusing to deal with issues that arise diplomatically is only a recipe for endless wars and more and more violence.

The only bs propoganda I know about here is the propoganda that labels enemies terrorists and uses this "labelling as a terrorist" as a justification to not deal with them, and uses this "labelling as a terrorist" as a justification to not have a dialogue with them.

Because your enemies chant "death to Israel" as they lead their troops into battle against you, does not justify them being labelled as a terrorist and justify you refusing to have a dialogue with them. It does not justify you demonizing them.
It does not justify you dehumanizing them.

Because your enemies chant "death to Israel" as they rally supporters, does not justify them being labelled as a terrorist and you refusing to have a dialogue with them. It does not justify you demonizing them. It does not justify you dehumanizing them.

Hamas and Hezbullah's chants of "death to Israel" are just calls to battle and calls to rally the troops behind them.

Look at today. Hezbullah members are probably shouting out everywhere, "death to Israel," as they bury their wives, as they bury their mothers, fathers, sisters, and brothers killed by Israeli bombs who were supplied to them by teh United States. They bury their children, their hopes for a better future. They bury their children, who were bombed and killed by Israel as they were sleeping or playing in their homes or fleeing in their cars (after Israel warned them to leave their homes with leaflets).

They shout "death to israel" over and over.

This is a general response to your comments. I will come back later and address them more specifically. I have to take my children to their birthday party, something those mothers and fathers of children who died from Israeli bombs will never be able to do again.

Akiva M said...

Sherri,

1)You were the one who called this a continuation of the 1948 war. The 1948 war was about Israel's right to exist as a state.

2) I don't "label" Hamas a terrorist group. They label themselves a terrorist group when they send Hamas members into discos and pizza parlors and busses and Passover Seders for the avowed purpose of killing as many Israeli civillians as possible.

So I will ask you very simply - in your opinion, is Hamas a terrorist organization?

Your answer will say volumes about you, and to be honest I have no interest in discussing anything with anyone who can answer that question "no", both because it's pointless and because there's nothing to be gained from attempting to understand the mental processes of someone who could give that answer.

PS, I note that you haven't bothered to respond to the comments re electronic lebanon.

Dimitry said...

The nature of the conflict between Hezbullah and Israel is Lebanon, the boundaries of Lebanon, the Sheeba Farms, and issues arising from prior conflicts such as the release of prisoners.

The nature of the conflict between Hamas, who represent the Palestinians, and Israel, is their desire to have their own state in the Occupied Territories.


Not according to them. But then again, what do they know. These would be the aims of reasonable, western, civilized people if they were in they place, so obviously this is what they want - it is impossible that they would think differently!

Stealth Bomber said...

Sherri,
Your pathetic apologetic gyrations for HA are laughable. Despicable, as well. You think HA has a "higher purpose" and provides benefits to the Lebanese people; well, Hitler did some "good" things for the Germans as well. Does that make him anything less that a genocidal monster?
Also, you shouldn't even bring religion into the discussion when you clearly don't know anything about it. Since religion is an unknown subject to you, perhaps you should forget about discussing anything about this subject (terror, the Middle East, etc.) since religion is such a big part of it.
Your sources that you cite, saying "this is just what I've read," betray your ignorance. Open your mind and start reading things from places other than the same tired left-wing apologists for totalitarianism. What I see in you is a lost girl who thinks it's cool to be leftist so you just spout the same tired old propaganda that the Western (American) Left has been chanting for YEARS.
HOW you can deny terrorism exists by saying people "label their enemies as terrorists" is beyond me. It indicates a willful ignorance and shameful self-loathing for being a free human being. Are you blind to what's going on in the world? Are you blind to history? Have your Stalinist masters completely rewritten reality for you? It's the apologetics for everyone who hates freedom, like you, who strengthen those who hate freedom. You are complicit. You are a USEFUL IDIOT. You say you want peace, but your words arm those who want to kill you and me--and everyone else here. And my daughter--and those who assist those who threaten my daughter's well-being had better be ready to fight me. YOU are the enemy, because YOU and your comrades help the enemy. You are the auxiliary unit of terrorists like Hezbollah.
I'll bet you wonder why America is so bitterly divided, too. Well, I don't wonder at all.