Tuesday, August 01, 2006

A forgotten anniversary

Today, Lebanon was supposed to celebrate Army Day - the anniversary of the establishment of the Lebanese Armed Forces.

The Army's main battle tanks are M 48 Pattons and Russian T-54/55s. These antiques date back to the 1950s. The M113 armored personnel carrier is by far the Army's most visible vehicle. Most of these machines belong to the first generation of M113s: some are even said to have been used during the Vietnam War.

As for air "power," well, you tell me exactly what twenty something UH-1 Hueys constitute, and I'll make sure to post that on this entry. I must say though, listening to those relics fly overhead is quite an ordeal. The Hueys' main base of operations is the Beirut International Airport; therefore, whenever the guys decided they had enough fuel to fly some sorties, all of Beirut was sure to know.

Today's Lebanese Army is very much a product of the Syrian occupation, which only came to an end less than two years ago. The Syrians basically built an army that could be characterized as a police force on steroids. All it did, and could do, was maintain internal stability.

Whenever political tensions were high, or if there was, for some reason, a spike in criminal activity, the Army would flex its muscles by increasing patrols, deploying some of its hardware so that they were visible to the public, and add one more hurdle to the myriad of hurdles drivers faced on Lebanon's roads and highways: checkpoints.

As for protecting Lebanon's sovereignty, whoever heard of such a notion? Since Hizballah monopolized the front with Israel, and it was "simply impossible" for any threats to emerge from Syria, the Lebanese Armed Forces' otherwise natural role of protecting Lebanon from outside threats was simply usurped. If the American Army was never in the business of "nation building," the Lebanese Army was never in the business of defending Lebanon.

I hope that in the new Lebanon that eventually emerges this reality changes. The Bush administration just promised $10 million to help the army deploy to the South after a cessation of hostilities. That money would definitely help, however the issue at hand surpasses merely deploying forces in the South – it is one of capability. Will the Lebanese Army be able to fulfill its role of protecting the Lebanese state from all threats to its sovereignty? I doubt it; and $10 million does not even come close to changing that reality.

114 comments:

Mirvat said...

please post:
America Should Stop the Bloodshed
WHAT: Silent candlelight vigil
WHEN: Thursday, August 3rd, 7:30pm
WHERE: South side of Union Square Park, New York City

Ergotelina said...


The Last Activities
LAF arrested between July 4th 2006 and July 11th 2006 at 7 pm 454 individuals for committing the following infractions: driving cars with no identity papers, smuggling fuel oil, hitting each other, infraction to residence regulations, shooting fire

Avrum. said...

If Hizballa people will join this army (and who will stop them?) it will be useless.

Omer (israeli) said...

If Hizballa people will join this army (and who will stop them?) it will be useless



Its the best idea so far. If the hizbollah agree's to get his command from your general, and under central control, then you Hizbollah on one hand can't do operations without agreement from the goverment, plus you can keep hizbollah fire power.

To me it sounds a fair idea.

Do you think that will be possible?

dunes said...

a strong lebanon army is what israel wants to so i guess its a lost cause

GSH - Observer said...

omer;

I'm not sure Iran and Syria are willing -at this time- to let go of HA, it's their only tool on the ground.

All the previous militias in Leb were absorbed by the army after the civil war. I don't see why it's different with HA (again...if Iran and Syria are willing to let go)

CMAR II said...

Raja,

I agree. The problem is that Hizballah has grown like 75kg benign tumor in the body of Lebanon, causing it to waste away as the tumor grows larger and larger. The Lebanese army will not grow stronger until Hizballah is eradicated.

yuval from tlv said...

therefor a strong joint UN force should take over southern Lebanon to insure you're soverignity..

but guess again who won't let Lebanon to become soverign?
Syria & Iran, they view you as a heretic tumor in the fundemantalistic muslim middle east they're planning..

i truely don't understand what Syria get's from this bond with Iran, except being outcasted..
they're not a fundemantalistic islamic nation.
so i'm having a hard time to understand Assad's attentions..

but you Lebanese are in a horrible problem, i just can't see you becoming a true democratic soverign nation, you have the HB over there, disagree to disarm itself, or to be under the control of your governmanet.

as it looks to me, you heading sooner or later towards another civil war between HB suporters, and Free-Lebanon suporters..

but this time the world will be on your side and will help you, while Syria and Iran now drowning in their inner and outer problems.

3li- said...

Raja-

The US refuses to demand Israel cease fire. Over 800 of your civilian fellow-citizens have died, thousands injured, and almost a million made refugees, with their towns and villages devastated..

The US grants Israel $4.5 Billion a year and supplies it with the very wepaons and bombs savaging your country right now..

And you? You seem somewhat encouraged by the $10 million this same US "promises" Lebanon after Israel finishes raping your country..

What universe do you live in?

If you're the kind of smart compatriot we have..then God help us. Is it any wonder the US can get away with mayhem and murder in the Mideast?

I think you were good posting pictures of Beirut streets. Just stick to that, adn leave the analysis to others who see the reality of what's going on on the ground...

JoseyWales said...

Maybe we can declare this day another fucking stupid useless ubuesque national frigging day off holiday to add to the 176 days off we take for various reasons in an economy that barely works in normal times.

What's khara traitor in chief Lahouss doing today??

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Raja

You claim that the Lebanese army was wekened by the Syrian to the capacity of simply maintaining internal stability rather than protect Lebanon. Yet as Hezbollah demonstrates, the Lebanese army was weakened far beyond that capacity. Hezbollah's reckless decisions prove that the Lebanese army is not capable of even maintaining internal stability. In addition, in order for the Lebanese army to protect Lebanon's sovereignty, there must first be asovereignty to protect. As Hezbollah proves again, the Lebanese government is not the sovereign of Lebanon. A sovereign has a monopoly on power and is the only one to decide on the country's declarations of war. Sovereignty starts from within. That is what the Israelis did and still do when they outlawed terrorist groups like Kahana Khai from their midst.

Dimitry said...

Since Hizballah monopolized the front with Israel

You should've and could've broken that monopoly asap. Lebanon's army has 40,000 soldiers, iirc, versus several thousands of Hiz fighters. You could simply deploy in the south. At first alongside Hiz, and slowly spreading. One can assume that deploying alongside Hiz would not have sparked the civil war you were so afraid of, right?



I'm unsure, but this is probably the first war in history in which one side is trying to force the other side to take control and assume sovereignity over land, instead of the other way around.



Btw, worth reading. Nothing new, but sums up many major points quite nicely.
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/457/743.html

Lirun said...

i need to flag the significance of your post..

raja.. your wishes are exactly what our side of the border wants.. we want you to have full control.. this is one message that israeli peace lovers.. war mongers.. sceptics and all other segments have all been consistently posting..

wishing peace for our region with my entire heart

lirun
tel-aviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
its not far off

Lirun said...

besides itll hardly be fortgotten with thousands of people visiting this blog everyday..

you underestimate your audience

:)

Sweetwalter said...

Ok guys and gals...let's get to the fuckin' bottom line. Hez is pledged to the destruction and elimination of Israel...duh?... Israel isn't going anywhere and is the military power in the region...read your fuckin' history books, man. Israel is tired of the bullshit incursions and shelling of it's town's and cities...Hiz overplayed their hand and are now paying the price. Bush and MOST of the US citizens are in favor of eliminating the military wing of Hezbollah, ergo, (look it up stupid)..Hez is DEAD, like it or not...Syria and Iran are two bit nations and five years from now no one will even remember their president's names...Iraq will be a none-religious democracy and everyone will be drinking German beer and going to Indian movies...women will be free from you male pricks and the president of Iran will be a woman. Like it or not assholes, the crusaders will win. We destroyed you centuries ago and will fuckin' do it again.....Sweetwalter

Amon Ra said...

Sweetwalter;

Obviously you are keeping under your pillow Henry Kissinger's autobiography and considering Nagasaki and Hiroshima the most glorious moments of US history

You are a democratic role model for all of us...

Well done mate and thank you for showing us the right path. It was so difficult to work it out without your substantial contribution

Lebnese Liona said...

Laugh my Ass OFF!!!,

So the IDF did not learn that they ARE NO MATCH TO THE HB FIGHTERS IN CLOSE GROUND COMBAT.

YOU THINK THEY WOULD LEARN FROM THE MASACRE OF BINT JBEIL!!

NOW THEY ATTEMPT A LANDING IN BAALBECK TO CAPTURE ONE OF THE HB LEADERS.

NOT ONLY THEY DID NOT FIND THE GUY THEY WERE LOOKING FOR. THEY ARE TRAPPED IN THE HOSPITAL WHILE HB IS POUNDING THE LIVING DAYLIGHT OUT OF THEM.

CAN YOU SAY BLACKHAWK DOWN!!

BY THE WAY , I AM A US CITIZEN AND I DONT WANT HB TO BE ELIMINATED .

SO SPEAK FOR YOURSELF SWEET WALTER , CAUSE YOU AINT SPEAKING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!

CANT WAIT TO SEE THE NEWS TOMM!!!!

AND ONE MORE FOR THE RECORD , A SECOND IDF NAVY VESSEL WAS DESTROYED OFF THE COAST OF SOUR YESTERDAY , ALL ARAB NETWORKS SHOWED IT WITH PICTURES BURNING AND IDF STILL DENIES IT!!

Ben said...

There are many good reasons for pride and realistic self-esteem. Having the biggest stick in the neighborhood? Surplus to requirement.

Let Lebanon know that the eyes of the world are on it ... and not all those eyes are dry.

To do well with what we have, is more than that expected of us? No.

From here in Northern Alberta, Canada, I cannot look to any place in Europe with expectations of nobility or virtue or principle or valour. Lebanon? What better place and what finer people to break the cycle of injustice?!

Each of us are challenged to take hold of whatever part of the chain is near us, and to do our piece of the work.

stay well

truth2all said...

====================


U.S. Residents: Call all U.S. Senators and Representatives and insist that an unconditional ceasefire occur immediately for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip as well as the Lebanese and tell everyone you know to do the same thing.

Tell them to stop giving U.S. taxpayer money and U.S. weapons to Israel so that Israel can commit genocide.

Call toll-free in the U.S.:

1-888-355-3588 or 1-800-828-0498

We all have blood on our hands if we don't do something immediately.


====================

Dimitry said...

LL, right, right. "Massacare". "No match". Of course, IDF left the ground littered with bodies of Hizballoners, and uncovered countless caches of weapons, but sure, why not.


A big concentration of Hiz fighters in the open is an excellent opportunity. I do hope Israel doesn't waste it.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Lebanese Liona

I usually try not to be cynical; but your remark on victory compells me to. Can the Israelis say "Black Hawk Down"? Yes. Can Lebanese say "rubble"? I don't know. But if they don't take control of their country from Hezbollah soon; they will learn to.

Going back to the movie "Black Hawk Down", I seem to remember the end quite differently from you. If I recall the US army ignored the UN, went to save their guy (and did) and found out that the Hezbollah equivilant of the story was lying (surprise). You said you live in the US; then it should not be trouble for you to go and rent the movie to recall of the ending.

Finally remember: it is easy to fight for principles from the comfort of suburbia when someone else pays the price; but when you are on the ground, pragmatism seems to be more crucial.

Itai said...

Lebnese Liona LOL, funny girl. I don't know where you get your news from but for each dead Israeli soldier they kill 10 HZA.
BAALBECK - no casualties on IDF side, numerous casualties on HZA side + 3 prisoners back in Israel.
BINT JBEIL - 8 dead IDF soldiers, 50 dead HZA.

no match...LOL

Itai said...

I have to ask something:

1. How come Lebanon doesn't publish the details of those "800" dead civilians?

2. When 27 children died in Qana everybody in the world saw those horrific pictures. How come that there were no pictures published of the HUNDREDS of dead children you claim that died in Beirut and other bombings? Could it be that the Lebanese government exagerates or LIES?

3. Do you know that the international red cross counted 35 bodies in Qana. How come you say 60?

MERKOVA said...

RAJA ..... What the hell are you talking about? What ARMY? Lebanese is no where to be found before and during war. Is the lebanese army somewhere hiding?

WUSSSSSIESSS..........

MERKOVA said...

truth2all ... Yes I will my local congresswoman and tell her to INCREASE the US AID to Israel. After this war Israel will need to resupply for the next war that some dumb fuck arab state may start.

Lirun said...

are you all crazy?!?!

what is this verbal point scoring on thebackof soliders risking their lives.. civillians losing theirs.. our cities and towns living in a psycho existence of alerts and shellings..

what are you talking about! what excrement is coming out of your minds.. sounds like some suped up version of lord of the flies.. we can try to project the source of all evil wherever we like.. but at the end of the day its within us.. it's not some demonic supernatural creature.. its in human minds and hearts.. we need to quell it not to fan its fires..

i vote for the return of thoughtful dialog - whether or not it includes unpopular views - and an end to school yard crap.. this blog has more to give us and the world than just a place to download frustrations..

Ariya said...

When Hezbullah is kicked out of Lebanon, the army only needs to have presence in Southern Lebanon. Israel won't invade if not provoked. And they don't want Lebanon. They just want to be left alone.

I hope that one day Hezbullah is exterminated, and that the Lebanese Army can move in and restore peace.

That's assuming the Army isn't infiltrated with Hezbullah operatives already... And you know what happens when you assume something.

Ariya said...

truth2all, why don't you call the Hezbullah/Hamas/IJ/Fatah/Aqsa offices and demand an immediate end to their hostilities against a sovereign nation?

Ariya said...

Lebnese Liona, I thought you were going to leave the US to fight with Hezbullah? What happened? Your air conditioning and cushy couch too difficult to give up for principle?

Arab TV? Excuse me while I laugh.

Fares said...

Nec cons new fiasco
read update#4
PEACE To Lebanon

Lebnese Liona said...

airya,

No I am sorry , you go believe the IDF who claims that they have kiled over 300 HB!!!!

They also claimed to have lost only 3 soldiers in yesterdays fun.

Simple ANALYSIS:

In one battle, Pictures on CNN/ Newspaper online showed , 5 tanks destroyed and one upside down.

OK, UNLESS There is 1 isreali soldier per tank and two of the tanks are unmanned , according to my simple deduction, I would think at least 15-20 soldiers were killed and hurt.

HB claimed that 35 were between dead and injured, to me that is closer to the truth.

As we speak the IDF just announced that they had 11 brought back with severe injuries.

DO YOU SEE THE PATTERN HERE!!
IT SEEMS TO ME AFTER THE BINT JBEIL DEFEAT THAT IDF IS CONTROLLING THE MEDIA NEWS VERY NICELY!!!

JUST SIMPLE DEDUCTION MY FRIEND, DOES NOT TAKE A ROCKET SCEINTIST TO FIGURE IT OUT.

ALSO, I dont have to justify to you or the world that HB is winning the war because you have not been able to break them down yet!!

You are talking about the most advanced and biggest army in the ME fighting gurrilla group!!!

Do you understand, you have no execuse dude, if the IDF had one ounce of bravery or skill they would have wiped the HB out already.

Its so funny, and thats the joke that is killing and tearing the IDF and the entire counrty of isreal, they cant seem to digest the remote possibilty that the HB have been able so far to hold on despite over 100,000 tons of bombs and raids!!!

you should be ashamed of yourself, you guys are pathetic, you are showing the entire arab world how weak you are !!!!

IDF LEGEND NO MORE, THE IDF DEFEATS STARTED IN 2000 AND IT WILL CONTINUE!!!!

GOD BLESS LEBANON AND EVERY NATION THAT WOULD STAND AGAINST THE AGGRESSION OF THE ISREALI STATE

Ofer said...

I think that the US and the EU should arm the Lebanese army to its teeth. They should get modern tanks, helicopters and gunships. This is in the best interest of Israel.

Lebnese Liona said...

OFER,

I appreciate your opinion although I doubt that the isreali government itself would allow it. See they will think that Lebanon might still threatne there existence as long as there is shiite muslims in their ranks.

sad but true

barroon said...

Itia

thoese Hundredes are picutered and documantized by Red cross.
they goes to hospitals take picture and certify the cause of dead

dont worry they are really lieing with worms under ground

Lirun said...

lebnese liona - i think you need to read more media hat expresses other persepctives..

i make an effort to skim papers from 3 continents at least - to get a persepctive on whats omitted from each..

i think you would be surprised to learn that israel is actually in favour of a robust lebanese army.. one that can decisively take unconditional responsibility for the security of its side of our border..

personally - i dont have any objections to that - however i would love for our soldiers (yours and ours) to be forever bored to tears.. helping perhaps occasionally with the logistics of rescues from natural disasters or other non confrontational missions..

wishing peace to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
lets bring "it"

Omer (israeli) said...

I think it silly counting the dead,
but i'll do it anyway to make things clear.
5 tanks have been hit: 1 landed an explosive trap and killed all 4 crew members (on day one of the war). the rest of the 4 tanks were hit, but mostly inflicted light wounds (plus some medium). One, thou, was infilced heavy wounds after loosing both legs.

"The upside tank" is a puma armoured truck (not a tank, but close), no one got hurt thou.

You are all confused: Israel said it "hit 300 HB" that means wounded or killed. HB report 43 dead, that can mean that the rest are wounded. To all you Israeli's, read your hebrew: it says "Hit" not "killed".

In the over-night operation in bal-bek apperntly no Israeli soldier got hurt.

Liona, if its true that HB surronded the hospital, then they are sitting ducks. The hole point of gurilla war, is to hide and ambush. If they go out in open then one helicopter can finish them off.

Itai, shame on you. hundreds of civilians are dieing and you close your eyes.

I dont want to go into an "ego" discussion, who killed who. just past more concreate evidance to whats really happening. Lets try to go past the propoganda on both sides.

Itai said...

barroon, show some proof and I'll believe you.

Yet the question still rises how did the death of 35 civilians in Qana caused such a media frenzy and the deaths of hundreds didn't.

Omer (israeli) said...

Itai, Why do you think Lebanon is lying? don't you think they have enoght pain, without you rubbing it in?

About the Bal-bek story:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285005,00.html

Notice, how HB version is also given.

barroon said...

ITAI

i would say, media failur. sometimes a missing person bring all the media and whole nation`s attention, some other time dead of 150 pepole in a plane crash is 1 H news and finish.

barroon said...

ITAI

wait couple of month and all the picuters and documents will out . the mass graves in each area that they put 30 cofen inside it . after PEACE u can come and visit these graves in southern lebanon .
or may be they should make them as a touristic sopts to be visited by who like . u know ? like the jews memorial places.
hmmm..not a bad idea.. I guess later on.. i will pass this idea to Lebanon " tourist and culature ministry"

ofcours i must thank u ITIA to brought that subject, u r right Lebanies MUST show proof of the masacre of thier civilians

Itai said...

Omer (israeli), there were dozens of DEAD HZA scattered in the combats in Bint Jbeil, Maroon A-Ras and the that other place yesterday.

First of all I just doubted the integrity of the reports about dead civilians, I didn't say it's not a terrible thing if they did die.

Forgive me for not being a detouched left wing hypocrite who doesn't live on this earth.
If you'll give me one example of a country who when faced with the shelling of its civilians would use less force than Israel then I'll reconsider my positions. Check my Mexican theoretical example.

When London was bombed the allies killed millions of German civilians and erased whole cities (who didn't have any military targets in them btw).
Dresden - 100,000 people, Tokyo - 100,000 people, Hiroshima, Nagasaki are just a few examples.

After 9/11 the U.S. bombed thousands of civilians in Afghanistan just for hosting terrorists (I don't condemn them for doing so). These were reprisals not an attempt to prevent missile launches. Europe hadn't faced similiar conflicts in their recent history but be certain they'll use much more force if Paris, Berlin, Madrid or Rome were attacked in such manner from hosted terrorists in neighbouring countries (who sit in their neighbour's government no less)

Those who condemn us are either hypocrites, anti-israelis no matter what or just can't imagine what it's like to walk a mile in our shoes.
GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD: Israel IS the most humane and merciful country in the world.

Look at the world's history god damn it, wake up and stop apologizing for your government doing what evey government would do.

Omer (israeli) said...

I'm out of this discussion. Its goona get dirty.

Itai said...

barroon, I'll follow it but if you read my previous responses then you'll know I think it's OK if hundreds did die. It's the outcome of HZA using civilian areas for staging attacks. If you'll check international law then you'll see that Israel response was lawful and Lebanon commited war crimes.


Omer (israeli), I think I should remind you what the Palestinians did in Jenin: They put animal carcasses in the rubble to create a terrible smell and claimed there was a "massacre". A U.N. investigation cleared Israel afterwards (And we know the U.N. isn't a big fan of Israel). So be careful when dealing with Arab lies.

Itai said...

Omer (israeli), you can go back to your pink planet where enlightened Europeans send candy to their enemies and where islamo-fasicst can be convinced by reason and be defeated with pacifism.

I can understand barroon I can't understand you.

dunes said...

to all the lebense thinking israel lies about its death toll.
in israel every mom knows where her child is most of the time.
the army cant hide a death toll.
so cut ur lies.

Kifaya said...

Will the Lebanese Army be able to fulfill its role of protecting the Lebanese state from all threats to its sovereignty?

Your country shall be protected by laws, not U.S aide, an external multi-national force, or internal multi-national militia.

Nasrallah and his ilk of enablers should be arrested and jailed in Lebanese jails. Only then can Lebanon go on with the business of securing it's sovereignty for the sake of peace.

chen said...

lebanese liona-
just a few things:
1.please attach link that shows second israeli ship destroyed
(not that the first one was destroyed)- all ARAB CHANNELS...

2.the crew of a tank that takes a hit doesn't necessarily sustain death or even very serious injuries.+ what u saw was an APC that got rolled over and only fell about a meter, shouldn't even be scratches there.

3.israeli media is completely free
and only delays news about killed soldiers until their families are notified, u don't really live in the usa but if u did u would know that a democratic country can't hide such information and also does not want to.

4.if u do live in the usa than u should try and absorb some of it's values leaving behind the backwardness of arab society.
"yesterday's fun"- it wasn't fun for the israelis, it sure as hell wasn't fun for lebanese civilians,
and i can promise u it was no fun for HA, who was it fun for? u?

eyal said...

To all the people who is involved in this sad conflict....
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/457/743.html

Fearless said...

When in distress Hizbullah reverts to plain lies

HIZBALLAH CLAIMS DRIVING ISRAEL BACK, SINKING MISSILE BOAT, BUT SIGNS ARE IT IS TRYING TO BOOST MORALE WITH TALL TALES

HIZBALLAH CLAIMS DRIVING ISRAEL BACK, SINKING MISSILE BOAT, BUT SIGNS ARE IT
IS TRYING TO BOOST MORALE WITH TALL TALES
By Michael Widlanski
JERUSALEM-AUG. 1, 2006 13:40 PM

Hizballah launched a series of battlefield victories today in its own
press releases, but there seemed little sign of them on the battlefield, as
Israeli infantry and armor begin to fan out in the southern Lebanese area
south of the Litani River.

"In the name of God the compassionate, the merciful, If you return, then
we will return, and hell is their hell, for the infidels," announced
Al-Manar television, Hizballah's propaganda arm, in a special late morning
bulletin.

"After violent confrontations between the Zionist forces in Kafr Kila
region and strugglers of the Islamic Resistance, the force (Zionists), under
the fire of the resistance, was forced to return to the border," continued
the Hizballah announcer.

Hizballah also announced last night that it had sunk another Israeli
"Saar 4.5-class" missile boat, but Israel denies the claim, and there is no
evidence to prove it.

Nevertheless, Hizballah continued to proclaim that it had sunk the
Israeli missile boat, though there were no pictures of the sinking.

Buoyed by its own press releases, film clips and the alleged Israeli
"massacre" of Lebanese in Kana two days ago, Hizballah is beginning to make
increasingly questionable erroneous battlefield claims.

Two weeks ago, Hizballah successfully struck a Saar-5 missile boat,
killing four Israelis, but the ship was brought back to base under its own
power, repaired and returned to service.

Hizballah also continues to show footage purporting to show the
shooting-down of an Israeli fighter jet, when, in fact, it was the premature
misfiring of an Iranian-made Zilzal missile, set off by an Israeli bomb.

There are also increasing questions about the Hizballah and Lebanese
government claims that Israel killed scores of Lebanese civilians two days
ago in aerial bombing in Kana, for several reasons:

.--Hizballah claimed 56 Lebanese civilians were killed, even before bodies
had been recovered;

.--In fact, fewer than half were discovered (27 bodies up to this point)
have been removed from the wreckage, and there is no explanation for the
discrepancy;

.--There is no apparent explanation for the absence of blood at the site as
well as the absence of wounded from the building collapse;
.--And the Israeli airforce has film that shows that the building was struck
by bombs more than eight hours before its reported collapse.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Al ghada - instead of bickering and accusing your countryman for treason - try reading Tony Blaire's speach yesterday in LA and may be you'll get some sence where it all is....

moral ground said...

It is our moral duty as Lebanese to suck up our pride after all this is over, solve our Hizballah problem, and sign a peace treaty with Israel. The days of solving everything by "resisting" are over, these are different days. Unlike our parents' generation, we have a Lebanon, with defined borders, that we were born into, and we regard it as country, and we regard those living within it as Lebanese. Any person who calls for resistance against Israel, or for revenge and retribution, has no regards for his fellow man. If you are stupid enough to let your pride stand in the way of your survival, you shouldn't be selfish enough to let your pride stand in the way of the survival or your compatriates. What Lebanese needs is actual peace. Time to rebuild, educate the people, acquire a semi economy, and some validity in the face of the other nations. You may think you don't need all these things, but in the face of the world you do, and until you gain that validity, you're in no shape to make demands. Unfortunately, the world doesn't operate according to what's right or wrong, so grow up and deal with it. Why don't Palestinians have a voice? because they haven't established their validity. The more you call for revenge and retribution, the more you set your country back to the stone ages, and the more you hurt the chances for a free, democratic Lebanon to ever take shape. So grow up, bend down, take it up the ass from Israel, suck up your pride, and think of the collective good. You will never defeat Israel, you will never even rival it, and the more you "resist" it, the stronger it grows. Lebanon and Israel are the only two nations on the Eastern coast of the mediterranean (disregarding Intakia), and Israel wants nothing more than you being unstable so that they can be the monopoly on economic dealings. Your moral duty is to your fellow man, and if you fail them because of your "pride", then you should reconsider your moral ground.

chen said...

shaba'a farms:

January 20, 2005 UN Secretary-General's report on Lebanon stated: "The continually asserted position of the Government of Lebanon that the Blue Line is not valid in the Shab'a farms area is not compatible with Security Council resolutions. The Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for purposes of confirming Israel’s withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425 (1978).

Timur Goksel, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) told the BBC that: "on all maps the UN has been able to find, the farms are seen on the Syrian side [of the border]." [BBC News (London), 25 May 2000.]

Lebanese army maps published in 1961 and 1966 -- among others -- clearly show the Shebaa Farms area (including Zebdine, Fashkoul, Mougr Shebaa, and Ramta) as being on the Syrian side of the border. All known Syrian maps, and all known Lebanese Ministry of Tourism maps, also show the Lebanese-Syrian border running west of the Shebaa Farms, which would place Shebaa Farms to the east of the border and therefore within Syria

A Lebanese military map, published in 1966, showing the Shebaa Farms as being on the Syrian side of the border-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shebaafarms.png

but of course i wouldn't want to confuse anyone with the facts.

Omer (israeli) said...

fearless,
Truth is more importent then propoganda. The IDF own inquiry says that the explosion after 8 hours was due to one of the missiles not exploding. the undetonated missile finally exploded 8 hours after - and it was the one that hit the shelter since it fell ON the shelter before it exploded.
If im not mistaken this is the offical IDF statement. But i might be wrong.

Lirun said...

yesterday i read the peace agreement between israel and jordan.. so simple and so straightforward

it basically says:

(a) we want to live in secure peace with eachother, respecting international law
(b) we are not giving up any rights in the process
(c) lets work together to make our countries benefit from being neighbours
(d) if we piss eachother off.. lets talk about it
(e) the disputes that bothered us in the past.. lets get our A into G and nut them out over the next little while..

with love.. Jordan and Israel

i reckon it could easily be redrafted to apply to lebanon and israel

praying it happen soon..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
we've spent enough blood

Omer (israeli) said...

fearless,

I do agree that HEZ has been caught lying a few times in this war. All and all HEZ lost its "famous" credbility in israel.

Chas said...

itai (and any other Israelis angered by criticism)
have you ever been in a barroom fight? If you have, you will know that if the fight gets to the point where you get your adversary on the floor and start kicking the crap out of him it is not your enemies who put their hands on your shoulder and say "that's enough now, let him be." - it is your friends.

Lirun said...

moral ground..

thats a very mixed message.. not sure if your enlightened or a bit dim..

you call for peace but seem to view peace as humiliation..

i recommend you review the water deal that was included in the jordanian deal.. israel owes jordan water even if there is none..

we will go very far for a genuine partner..

moral ground said...

Lirun, I don't view peace as humiliation, I view peace as the ultimate goal, as human life is most important. But pride is a bitch, and having to have peace with a country that constantly bullies you, rapes you, and gets away with it, is not easy to stomach for most. Which is my point. Those who feel that way, need to suck it up and grow up, and think of the collective good.

Lirun said...

i admire your goal.. and while i do not necessary agree with your description of the state of affairs - i understand the challenge that you pose..

in any event.. while i am not a fan of sanctifying the method for the goal - i do believe that a temporary feeling of degradation is a minor price to pay in the scheme of things..

in any event i also think that your comment applies perfectly well for israel from an israeli perspective..particularly the last sentence..

too bad you and i arent our respective countries prime ministers right now ;)

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
the solution is not that complicated..

dany said...

As I genuinely weep over the innocent victims of Cana (as opposed to some other mourners who, only hours after the tragedy, have had the indignity of shooting joyful salvos in the air upon the news of some uncertain military “exploit” by Hizbullah), I wonder:

1) How could Hizbullah leaders, after having spent years telling us about the ruthlessness of the Israeli enemy, appear suddenly awed that this "monster" did not hesitate to sacrifice dozens of innocents in order to destroy the mere possibility of a missile launcher hidden nearby? And why did they not eliminate this possibility by avoiding the proximity of civilian populated areas since the beginning of the fighting ? Nobody needs to be reminded of the emptiness of the “surgical strike” concept, as was proven time and time again by the most sophisticated armies in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq.
2) How could the Hezbollah believe that their missiles over Israel could have ever been considered by the World as a counter-strike, when all it has done was to legitimize Israeli bombardments.
3) How could the wise, experienced (both militarily and politically) Hassan Nasrallah not have understood that by provoking the Israeli bully (the provocation not merely being the abduction of two soldiers, but rather being the slow build-up of offensive weapons at short range from Israel, a mistake which had previously been made by the PLO up to 1982), he would draw dramatic consequences on all of Lebanon? Could his wisdom be geared towards a more regional agenda? Or could that wisdom be over-rated? In both cases, he should immediate surrender his weapons to the Lebanese legal authority? After all, to paraphrase De Gaulle, “war is too serious of a matter to leave it at the hands of Religious Clerics”

dany said...

moral ground,

I totally agree with you. It's time we, Lebanese, pick up our shit and get moving. We've been weighed down too long with this Palestine thing. In the meantime, other Arabs (including Jordanians, who are mostly from Palestine) are praising our resistance, while they are doing heaps of money and allowing their countries to develop and prosper far from any "liberation war" thoughts.

The Middle East News Addict said...

Lebanese Liona

You seem to have not understod Ofer's comment on arming the Lebanese army. The IDF might actually welcome such a move. Arming the Lebanese army would allow it to maybe try and control Hezbollah. But even if they don't try to do tht and attack Israel, it would be easier for Israel than fighting a Guerilla warfare. IThink about it: arming and training the Lebanese to fight the 4th strongest army in the world takes time. When that starts, Lebanon's underdog media advantage is gone while the IDF suddenly has larger and easier targets. The Lebanese army will be destroyed before they even learn how to flip the "on/off" switch on their new tanks!

Hezbollah's little victories are meaningless and can only be achieved by Guerilla for short period.

Back to your victory notion, the Israeli central bank anounced today that the war will not even breach Israel's 2006 budget due to tax reserves including compansation for Israel's citizens. The GDP would be hurt by less than 1% and the Israeli shekel still remains strong. Could the "victorious" Lebanese say the same when the dust settles on this conflict? Ask Lebanon's infrastructure minister who estimated the damage to infrastructure only at 2 billion $US. If that is winning, I rather be on the losing side.

Now I know what you might be thinking: Israel will pay the damages (even though rebuilding takes time and lives cannot be replaced) but then again, when was the last time you saw a person who practiced self-defense paying the family of the attacker?

p.s.
Did you watch "Black Hawk Down" ending again?

dany said...

lirun,

talking about the Jordanian peace deal, I've been thinking about some kind of agreement to get out of the mess Lebanon and Isreal are into at this point (Syria and Iran, mind you, are super-happy).
It seems simple enough, but for some reason it has not yet been proposed.
Since you are running for prime minister in your country, how does the draft below look to you ?

Holding of an international conference grouping Lebanon, Israel, UN, US, France Russia… to agree on the following points

1- Within a period of one week from the CF date, liberation of the two Israeli hostages
2- Commitment by Israel to liberate all Lebanese prisoners within a maximum period of 3 months
3- Commitment by Israel to implement fully UNR 425.
4- Commitment by Lebanon to the full disarmament of all armed groups (Lebanese or others) within 6 months and the extension of Government armed control over the complete Lebanese territory.
5- The formation of an international force formed of a dissuasion force of 18,000 men and of 2000 observers. This force’s mission would start 30 days after the CF and would last 12 months and would include:
a. The verification of the Cease fire observance by all parties
b. The control of all Lebanese borders to avoid passage of illegal arms
c. The verification of the disarmament
d. The verification of the full application of UNR 425
6- The return to the armistice accord
7- The allocation of a reparation fund of 5B USD (1B for Israel and 4B for Lebanon) to be covered by the UN budget and additional funds from a international donor’s conference to be held 30 days after the CF under the patronage of the UN. All funds should be made available within 30 days from their commitment by donors.

As soon as the above points are agreed on by all parties, an immediate ceasefire should be implemented. The Lebanese gvt is invited to produce during the conference, documents pertaining to the Shebaa farms for evaluation by the conference members. Should the documents be deemed receivable by the conference members, Syria will be invited to present any objection to the documents within one week. If Syria does not object, the Farms will be recognized as Lebanese and covered as such by UNR 425; Israel will then commit immediately to vacate this area within one month. Should Syria object to the Libanity of the Farms, these Farms will be considered as disputed territories and will not be covered by SCR 425, nor will any armed claim be made against Israel until the dispute is resolved between Lebanon and Syria.

Larry said...

Good luck getting Hezbollah to agree to something reasonable. The only thing they understand is destroy Israel.

Omer (israeli) said...

Dani,
I agree. good proposal. Most israeli would be glad to give "sheba farms", syrias or not, for "True peace" and not just "cease-fire".
And if theres peace we dont need any lebanese prisoners anyway.

Chas said...

Lirun .. you would make a good PM
- but how would you cope with the current situation?
Olmert says the IDF will stay there until a "robust international force" is ready to take over .. no countries are exactly lining up for the privelege of cleaning up this mess.
Perez said that the Israeli operation would consist of a series of incursions not a full scale invasion, that does not seem to be what is happening on the ground.
Condi has said there would be a ceasefire resolution at the UN this week, Olmert has said there will be no ceasefire.
Blair gave a speech which seemed to distance his position from that of Bush over the "War on Terror"
The preconditions for a ceasefire resolution set by the US and (changing?) British position (the elusive "lasting solution") seem to make such a resolution virtually unachievable.
Meanwhile HB continues to fire rockets, Israel continues to pound south Leb - civilians on both sides continue to suffer, though much more so in Leb.
In short the situation is a mess, with no clear road to stability, let alone peace (if that term still means anything in this situation)
Well, Lirun, I hereby appoint you PM .. what next?
PS I like Dany's points overall, but it seems to me that getting to a CF is the problem, not what to do after

dany said...

Larry,

While I agree that it will be very difficult to get Hizbullah to agree on anything that contradicts the Iranian agenda, I still think writing down proposals is more constructive than just repeating over and over again how HA is, udertands or what it thinks and likes.
It is not easy turning down a reasonable proposal when you're trying to keep the support of at least some of the population (no matter how endoctrinated these are). After all, this proposal allows HA to say they have achieved their objectives (at least, their stated objectives): the prisoners will be free and the Farms will be back.

Loli said...

Omer,
Shebaa Farms is not the issue, and never was. It is an excuse invented by Syria to keep the mess going on in my country Lebanon and instigate the gullible people to sustain its "resistance" and hatred towards Israel. We know Syria's old game. When some Lebanese will stop following foreign countries like Syria and Iran, we will have more control over our future and reach lasting peace.

Lirun said...

Dani

a couple of things.

(a) hat off to you as a forward thinker..

(b) you proposal seems excellent except a couple of reservations:

(i) i think israelis mayhave a hard time letting loose the prisoner that murdered the citizens in the town up north given the heinous criminal nature of that persons acts. however, if that person was to be tried in lebanon for the act on some extra territorial basis that was permitted under a lebanese act or perhaps under an extradition law then i think that would be acceptable.

(ii) in the middle east 12 months is a very short period - because we ME'ers are stubborn and patient.. i think the force should be subjected to a plan whereby after 12 months they are reduced consistently over 4 years in the course of a "knowledge transfer" program whereby the lebanese army is simultaneously trained and developed..

(iii) the last point is that israelis are really looking for a permanent solution.. so i think at least the commencement of peace deal negotiations should be included.. (not sure if it is customary to announce or if it is better kept cache)

in any event.. if you and i agree i propose to copy our posts and email them to the currently serving prime minister (he's keeping my seat warm) and see if he responds..

what's your feedback?

wishing this really happening..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
if we can they can..

Loli said...

Dany,
do you really believe HA will be satisfied with these two goals (Shebaa Farms and the prisoners)? Their aim seems to be to continue to challenge Israel and the US, and slowly but surely impose their beliefs and lifestyle because only THEY "hold the truth." The sad story about every fanatic on earth.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Dany

I understand what you are saying about Hezbollah agreeing to a ceasefire due to its need for support. However I do not think it is the case here. I do not want to reiterate all the details as they appear on my recent blog post. Safice it to say that for Hezbollah a ceasefire is not an option for it will cost it everything, not just its support. I would be interested in your opinion of the analysis. Perhaps there is something I have missed?

dany said...

Chas,

yes, a CF is hard to get to: listening to HA, they say that even if Israel agrees to a CF, they will not stop sending rockets.
But that probably is a lot of BS. If Israel agrees to a CF, and HA keeps firing, they will very quickly lose a lot of credibility and popular support which they very strongly count on, in their coming political war inside Lebanon.
The problem is getting Israel to agree to a CF before scoring some points.
I personally think that Israel can stop right now: it has won its war the minute HB abducted soldiers inside Israel and started firing rocket into Israel; this has destroyed HA's main argument: who has heard of a resistance movement fighting on foreign soil ?
Plus, many of the Lebanese politicians who have wanted HA to disarm but were not saying it for fear of being labelled "Israeli agent", are now saying it out loud on the grounds that Lebanon cannot afford to be drawn into a war by a single party, and that the decision of war and peace has to rest in the govenment's hands.

dany said...

Ilrun,

I know these guys (prisoners) are not the nicest people on earth, but quite frankly it is a small price to pay in view of the big pictures. Trust me, we don't really want to have these guys in Lebanon either !

You know how it goes: let's start with 12 months, and pretty soon it will be 12 years. Just look at UNIFIL !

As for permanent peace, do you think I'd be even bothering to respond to an Israeli blogger if that was not in the back of my mind ? Unfortunately, I think many Labanese are not yet ready for it. We have to take care of our Palestinian refugees probelm first !

You're welcome to send the post to your PM. I won't even bother with mine: unfortunately, most of our politicians don't have the balls to read anything suggesting negociation with Israel.

Lirun said...

Chas

in my blogapacity as PM i would respond with the following two points (politicians always seem to think in point form):

(a) i think Dani's proposal is in the context of achieving a ceasefire based on an interim agreement.. i would support this deal provided the reality checked in against the propositions.. dont forget israel is in fact a democracy and there are many voices to balance..

(b) the international area - as you point out is very ambiguous.. over the past few weeks political commentators have been afluster interpreting the arab world's silence this way and that.. europe's inability to issue a clear statement.. the US's call for ceasefire but always "tomorrow"..
there are so many agendas behind this indecisiveness.. i think its time these countries put their money where their mouths are.. if they are genuine about their statements - they should be either called to fund the implementation of such or otherwise confess to their true preferences so we can understand where the consensus really sits..

i am very sad that the people of lebanon and israel are paying the price in the meantime for what is effectively a clash of agendas and international political PR..

i support my countries endeavours to protect me and my compatriots - but i also urge my government to act more with brutal diplomatic force in the international relations arena to advance a solution more expediently..

i think the current violence is an inappropriate form of competition in the 21st century and its time we aligned with the civilisation.. we've all suffered enough..

unfortunately i dont know what to think exactly about the military operations.. the misinformation is rife.. i suppose the PM knows a bit more than i do as to what is and what isnt the reality.. these things are often judged more accurately in retrospect.. the world tends to forgive tragedies if ultimately the common levels of utility increase.. (very economic relationalist - i know - but its the best i can do..)

and as a private citizen - i confirm yet again - that all i wish for is peace with my neighbours..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
if we can they can

dany said...

mid east news addict,

Yes a CF will be painful for HA. But that depends on the real state of their ammunitions stock and their real losses. They could consider a CF as a way out, which will allow them to win some time, while they look for alternative to re-supply and fix some of the damage to their structure. The key, of course, is not allowing this to happen or else we'll be back to square one.

Chas said...

Dany,
notable that HB's rocket attacks stopped for some time during Israel's 48hr suspension of bombings. Probably they were just re-grouping but is it possible they were trying to send a message? If so it seems to have been ignored.
I agree - no democratic state can afford armed militias not under central control. But how to do it?
It is obvious (from the current Israeli effort) that the soluion is not military. I made an earlier post suggesting HB might agree to the deployment of an International force if the mandate incuded protection of Lebanon from further Israeli incursions .. it would be politically impossible for them to reject a force with such a mandate, but getting a form of words that would get it past the Americans and Israelis seems almost impossible.

Lirun said...

dani mate

you know whats funny..

your thinking style and eloquence reminds me of my dad - his name is also danny and i thought you were him when i first read your comment with the proposal..

i have been urging him lately to read my blog and i wrote about the jordan treaty yesterday - so i kind of considered that maybe he was playing off that..

i have always had lebanese friends and syrian friends and egyptian friends and you name it.. i grew up in quite a few countries and always landed into multicultural pockets..

but now more than ever - in this blog - arguing with very passionate people i realise how similar we are.. we even bickerthe same way and argue in the same fashion..

i wish we could have had this brainstorm over a coffee in a cafe and not through a mediated channel..

but i genuinely believe in the very front of my mind that our nations are destined to a long lasting and vibrant peaceful relationship..

i can accept that lebanon might find th ethought distasteful while bursing enourmous and very open wounds but i hope they heal soon and i hope i am not underestimating the strength of my compatriots and their ability to forego their trauma and victim complexe "privileges" because i am tired of waiting..

i want peace now

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
really badly

Lirun said...

*nursing

Lirun said...

i just sent our thread to the israeli channel 10 news room - lets see what they do with it

dany said...

Lirun
I'm not your dad, and I have young kids of my own.
What pisses me off is that I have now to look for a school abroad, because i'm not sure there will be a school year in Lebanon !
It is probably the same for some parents in Northen Israel.
The irony is that, while in Europe or the US, looking for a school, I might run into some guy like you, not knowing he's an Israeli, or even knowing it, and we'll be discussing the situation in the Middle East (both angry) and we'll realize that we live a few kilometers away and we can't even contemplete the coffee session you're talking about.

Loli said...

Dany,
Why can't you contemplate coffee with a guy from the other side of the border? I work with Isrealis, and while I am saddened by all the madness and violence in Leb, and while my colleagues and I don't agree on certain points, we do agree on the essential: peace. I think you can make a conversation over coffee happen.

Lirun said...

you're right there is a chance the school year in israel will be impacted in the "fire zones".. there are probably various other ramifications that will slap us hard across the face if the situation isnt resolved soon..

Chas said...

Lirun,
Looks like some of Arab nations are coming of the fence (meeting in Beirut atm).
The confusion of agendas in the international level is costing lives in many areas, not just the ME.
I personally believe this confusion is due to the fact that perception of events in the US is skewed and is percieved as skewed by most of its natural allies. So most countries simply do not trust the judgement of the percieved "leader of the free world" However this is a whole 'nother topic.
I agree that Israel will be "forgiven" (by all but those who do not forgive its existance) should a constructive solution somehow emerge.

dany said...

chas,

I did not know that HA's rocket attacks had stopped during the 48 hours...let's call it "reduction of airstrikes", OK ? because it sure wasn't a suspension !
Anyway, it that was a signal (and I hadn't caught it myself) it is too bad that it was ignored. Then again, you have to admit that your gvt is not always very subtle !

dany said...

loli,

I can't contemplete coffee with an Israeli simply because under Lebanese law, that would lead me straight to jail !

Otherwise, I's have no problem with it, just like I'd have coffee any day with a Syrian despite all what Syria has put us through.

Loli said...

Dany,
Of course I talked about coffee abroad, not in Lebanon. I work and talk with my Israeli colleagues and I can't even contemplate going to jail for that. ;-)

Lirun said...

one more thing.. i think Australia needs to attend our peace conference.. australia has significant jewish and lebanese communities that generally live in amicable coexistence. both communities have been vocal about the middeast politics and both have served as positive catalysts for good things to their brothers overseas.. they have moderate and progressive community leaders and appear to have expressed an interest in sending troops.. john howard - while viewed by many as bush's labrador - has been active about addressing the safety of his nationals and the lebanese fledgling democracy in lebanon as well as empathising with israel's security issues..

Loli said...

Looks like you've lived in Oz. You also said "mate" in a previous blog. ;-)

Lirun said...

fair dinkum

Loli said...

So you get pressies, eat dindins, enjoy arvo etc. Maybe that's what makes you so peaceful, compared to your fellow Israelis bloggers.

seeker said...

Hmm, the tune has changed
and I thought yesterday was the last time I will come here again
Thank you guys,
Sounds very very intresting...
And Lirun,
Who cares about Kuntar if Lebanon keeps him and he doesn't pay Israel a visit, who cares?!
I am quite sure the majority would vote for that.

Loli said...

seeker,
As long as we communicate, it's a good sign. Even when people address each other with hatred, it's already a step forward, and we can work through some prejudice and show that our peoples are not that different after all. The key is to decide whether we want to seek peace and mutual acceptance, or never-ending war and loss.

Lirun said...

prisoner swap deals are more a respect thing than anything.. its expected that under the national's law they will receive better treatment.. be heard by a more favourable judge and have greater prospects of a pardon.. however.. the idea (if you ask me) is to acknowledge some common morality.. it's almost like a handshake between two countries

anyway.. i will now send ehud olmart a copy of this thread.. you never know what could happen..

Dimitry said...

But Kuntar isn't likely to leave Israel alone. The last batch of terrorists Israel released has already killed twenty-odd people, from what I heard.

Why can't Lebanon accept the person commited a vile crime on Israeli territory, and therefore Israel is quite justified in keeping him in jail?

seeker said...

loli
I agree, but some recent communications were not that communicative....


Dimitry,
What is jail?
A stupid separation between the "good people" and the bad, so the good people will not suffer.
I call it stupid (subjective opinion) because it doesn't solve the probelm in the first place.
I don't care whether the separation is done in a jail in Israel or on Lebanonese soil, as long as he doesn't come back for some more of his gory tasks, it's okay for me.


Indeed as a Lebanoneese I would do everything NOT to have him free in my country.
But I don't know maybe he changed

But frankly Dimity do you real want to pay taxes that pay this guys food and accomodation?

eli said...

Hezbollah is not about recovering a tiny piece of land called sheba farm or releasing a couple of Lebanese criminals held in Israeli prisons. That’s not why Iran pays hezbollah 40 million dollars a month. Hezbollahs goal is to impose a theocratic fundamentalist regime, first in Lebanon and eventually over the entire Arab world, in order to further the glory of Allah and hasten the arrival of the mahdi (the Muslim messiah).

In the Iranian-Hezbollah utopia 16 year old girls will be hanged for committing "adultery" (like in Iran today), authors will be condemned to death and society will be dragged back to the dark ages (only kind of scientific research allowed will be nuclear weapon development).

That’s why most Arab rĂ©gimes are against iran-hizballah.

shittyzionz said...

Pfff, I thought this was A LEBANESE blogger where we can express our feelings & thoughts. I'm so so surprised with all the MOSSAD people coming here to spread their poison!
I really had it with people claiming that HA are fighting for Syria & Lebanon and I must say that whoever thinks that way is plain stupid, why would they put THEIR lives, their families lives, their children lives, their cities, their villages in danger for Syria & Iran? Did any of us expect the Israeli reaction to be this barbaric? No! the fact is, they've been planning for this war long time ago and they just took the 2 soldiers as an excuse to destruct our country!! The cant stand the fact that theres a small group of people that kicked their arses in 2000 and just tried to revenge. The USA gave them the green light to destroy our cities, our bridges, our schools, our roads, our air port, our infrastructure, & committing genocide just for 2 soldiers? That’s the biggest pile of BS Ive ever heard. Both of the Nazi government of the USA & the Occupied Palestine want to us to become like Iraq!! That’s the democracy & freedom they are talking about, they want to drive us to a civil war. We don’t want any multi national forces in Lebanon, if HA are scaring Israel then, they are the ones who should have them in their lands!!

Long Live Lebanon!
Long Live Resistance!

Natalie

Itai said...

shittyzionz, shit happens. Your "resistance fighting for Lebanon" really screwed you over.
Nassralah turned out to be quite the moron. His piss got to his brains. It was fun and games till Israel kicked your ass with a push of its finger. :-)

MOSSAD, you really are full of yourselves. LOL

Dimitry said...

seeker,

Why do you think that by having Kuntar free to roam in Lebanon (as a bloody national hero) and the entire Arabic world (as a bloody cultural hero), would serve as seperation from Israel that would prevent him from going back to slaughtering innocent civilians?

It is my understanding that jails have workshops, that man they aren't entirely financial drain-holes. But anyway, since excecution unfortunatly isn't in the books, yes - I'm willing to pay for having him locked in a small box for the rest of his life.



natalie,
Thanks for reminding me, I'll make sure to collect my Mossad paycheck promtly. The surplus on my bank account is rather dwindling.
I'm still cruious, btw, about the reasons you oppose the sovereignity of Lebanon.

dunes said...

just to remind you kuntar cold bloodedly killed 2 small childern and their father

Lebnese Liona said...

itai,

Just wanted to warn you , dont start making remarks that you gonna regret.

Some off the stuff you said about the QANA victims I can easily fire back with something about the holocust.

OK!!
I will leave it at that, dont go down this muddy road of low blows because I will blow you out of the sky, and will never turn back.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To ShittyZions

What resistance are you talking about? The resistance to the reconstruction enjoyed by Lebanon prior to Hezbollah's decision to put an end to it?

Perhaps the resistance to normal life as experienced by both sides prior to the attack?

Yours is a twisted nationalism. One that does not put Lebanon at the top of its interests, but rather Hezbollah and by extension Syria and Iran. Have you ever thought why it is that Syria says that Sheba farms is Lebanese but is not willing to sign it over to Lebanon? It is because they want to make sure that if Hezbollah will get it after sacrificing so many Lebanese lives; the Lebanese government would not claim the Sheba farms as its own. That is why I am yelling from the top of my throat to every Lebanese who is willing to hear: "For god's sake, sacrifice Hezbollah for Lebanon; don't sacrifice Lebanon for Hezbollah!"

seeker said...

Dimitri,
Why do you think that by having Kuntar free to roam ...?
Well, I don't really, but being on thise website for some time I did remark that even moderate Lebanese conceive that the Sheba farms and Quntar are an obstacle to understanding and future peace.
As much as I don't understand this I respect it.
I don't really have a good reason for freeing Quntar but:
1. Israel did free before murderers when it suited its intrests
2. 'Heros' like Quntar do not stay long Heros in a healthy environement (Although it's a bit of a gamble how healthy Lebanon is gonna be)
3. The main problem that I see in most disputes is preception and trust, break wrong preceptions and build trust and you have a better platform to build relationship.

But I agree with you, it is all just assumptions and subjective feelings.

Itai said...

Lebnese Liona
1. Names and details of most of the Holocaust victims are recorded (among them my family members)
2. You can look at documents of the Nazis themselves in archives in Berlin and Washington.
3. Thousands of survivors testimonies were recorded on video tapes.
4. You can visit Auswitz and other death camps and concentration camps yourself.
5. Testimonies of Nazi war criminals and German citizens are also recorded but maybe they just framed themselves.
6. Films of piles of bodies near death camps, remains of skeletons in ovens, soaps made out of humans, glasses made out of their teeth and all those dugged up mass graves.
7. Testimonies of the Russian, American troops who arrived first to those camps and freed the survivors.

I understand a human being who finds it hard to grasp that humans did this to other humans that's why every human should learn about the Holocaust.

Lebnese Liona said...

itai,

Then take that as a Fuck*n lesson and stop doing to my people what hitler did to yours, you fuck*n hypocrite.


Peace what peace, you guys are the scumb of the earth.

dany said...

KUNTAR ROAMING FREE?

Come on you all, this is not really what you're worrying about. You know that if it was, Israel would release him and pay someone (it isn't hard to find: Mossad, Lebanese, Palestinian: we all love money around here) to kill him wherever he is.

Dimitry said...

LL,
1. Learn the difference between 6 millions and several hundreds.
2. Google Holocaust. Read some good sources. Look at some pictures.
3. Shut. The. %^$%. Up.

Lebnese Liona said...

dimitry,

I am glad that your religion teaches you that its ok to kill a few hunderd children as long as it does not exceed 6 million.

F U and everything you stand for.

Pay back will be a bit*ch believe me.

I promise you that you will spend the rest of your misreable life wondering about who is going to attack you next.

What a way to live!! LOL.

gl

Dimitry said...

Is cutting in line "ok"? No? SO PEOPLE WHO CUT IN LINES ARE JUST AS BAD AS THE NAZIS!

There's a wide, massive, huge area between "ok" and the Holocaust. Learn something about it before you go and compare everybody's and their aunt's dog's actions to to it. That is all.

abou al jamejem said...

I would like you guys to excuse me just a bit, especially those of you who don't speak arabic. Ayri bi Neseralla, Wayri bi Lahood el mastoul, w ari bi Michel Aon el khayen, dammarou el balad. Now I would like to translate what I just said. Fuck Neseralla, fuck Emil Lahood our Idiot president, and fuck Michel Aoun the former General who became pro Syrian. When the fuck Iran and Syria are going to leave us alone. Iran should be destroyed. All of you guys who support Huzeballa are bunch of idiots. Huseballa dosen't give a fuck about us, they care more about their masters in Iran and Syria. Hasan neseralla Ayri betrayed not only lebanon but his own people. thank you all.

shittyzionz said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
shittyzionz said...

Itai,
When have you ever kicked our ass? LOL, As the matter of fact, you have been wiping it ever since we kicked yours in 2000 hahha – sorry, I know its not a lady thing, but I guess it's all fair in love & war, don’t you think?
Back to our subject , your Olmert, god does he look like a weasel? Errugh, & that senile Shimon Perez thought that with all these massacres & destructions they were going to break us, but they can dream on.
Dimitry,
My dearest Dimitry, have you noticed the "double standards" in your words? What about all these terrorists that killed civilians in Qana 1 & 2? They are considered like "heroes" for killing women & children, they claimed they're fighting HA, while they are mainly killing civilians on purpose so that HA will be less popular but what's happening is completely the opposite.
Do I need to remind a Jew or a pro Jew about his paycheck? LOL sorry, but you lot love money immensely.
Dunes,
Your leaders killed thousands of civilians in both Palestine & Lebanon. Are they in jail? We want our dudes back, & then you get yours!
The Middle East Addict,
HA were only an excuse to this war. The USA & Israel have been planning for this war long time ago. They only kidnapped the 2 soldiers so that they can exchange them with ours inside your prisons for a very long time. Plus, we're not blind, we can see whos killing our children, women & civilians, whos destructing our cities & our infrastructure, its Israel with Americas support. If they really wanted HA then why don’t they just fight with them? Why do they kill our people? Why? Why? Why? They just want to destroy my country because they are blinded with hatred & desire to revenge, but luckily they got the answers.
Im a nationalist, I wont deny that, I love everyone in my country, Muslims, Jews & Druzes. I don’t need to prove to you or to anyone else that I love my country to death, I know my enemies & I know my friends, I know who cares for me & who's willing to sacrifice his life, his children ( bless you Sayed Nassrallah & HA) lives for the pride of my country & who wants us to aim our weapons towards each others chest and fight we –Christians- fight Muslims & Druzes instead of fighting our enemies. 2 of my uncles died in 82 they were 23 & 18 years old and they were civilians but as per usual, Israeli can never differentiate, I wasn’t born yet, but my dad, my grandparents are not over it yet, the majority of us Lebanese have bad memories with the Israel, we know they're devious, evil& that their only philosophy is " genocide" to everyone who wants justice in this world.
Lebanese Liona,
Im so proud of you!! Way to go bro, lets rock & roll :D
abou al jamejem
First of all, tell me how much did they pay you? (well theoretically, if you were actually Lebanese, because I cant really tell, you might be an Zionist (Israeli in another word) from Yemen or Iraq & that’s why your talking like that about Sayed Nassrallah (next time you call him Sayed, you dumb ass) so he betrayed his people & his country for Syria & Iran? He sacrificed his eldest son for Syria & Iran? He & his men are defending our borders for Syria & Iran? He's humiliating Israel & the USA ( who said they only needed some days to destroy HA, then it became some weeks to "weaken" HA & push them away from the borders blabla) see What HA and Sayed Nassrallah did & are doing? They are fighting four dignity & pride, if you have ever heard of these words. Do I have to repeat that every now & then, but as we Arabs say, eltekrar beaalem lehmar (you in another word) :P

Natalie

The Middle East News Addict said...

To ShittyZions

Let us review your claim on Israel's plan to invade Lebanon and compare it with reality.

1) Israelis want to be in Lebanon as much as the US wants to be back in Vietnam... and that's not very much.

2) Hassan Nasrallah made the same claim you made but only in the second week of fighting. The reason was simple: things did not go as planed (i.e. Israel capitulating to his new demands like last time) and he needed an excuse to justify this act of stupidity to the Lebanese people who started asking important questions about the necessity of this stupid stunt. Notice that he did not make this claim before the attack on July 12 or immediately after. Only after things did not go as planned.

3) Say you are right (and he is) and that Israel planned this (as proposterous as it my sound); then stratigically one must wait for the attack so that Nasrallah can do what he wants to Israel and get intl. support! Now unfortunately while the world condemns Israel for its response, they still see it as response and Hezbollah as the initiator. Now Mr. Nasrallah knows world politics then how could he miscalculate so much? Could it be that it is because there was no Israeli attack on the horizon and he blew it? Why didn't he wait for the attack? Even America and the UK could not have defended Israel in this case....

4) I am glad that you are not blind as to whose killing children. Luckily so is Sheikh Nasrallah who called the two Muslim Arab Israeli children he killed in Israel Shahids (but not to the Druze 15 year old girl he killed in the village of Mrar. By the way what does Shiekh Nasrallah have against Arabs in Israel? half the civilians he killed are Arab Israelis including those in Haifa who have a family in Lebanon...

5) Finally I am happy for you that you love Lebanon to death. If Sheikh Nasrallah keeps running the show you might have to...

Really looking forward to your response

The Middle East News Addict said...

Oh btw

What do you mean Sheikh Nasrallah is humiliating Israel and the USA? Lebanon is in ruins while Israel has barely touched its 2006 budget (as their central bank indicated)!!! If this is humiliation then I want to be on the humiliated side...