Monday, August 07, 2006

Sending Troops To The South

The Lebanese Government has unanimously agreed to deploy 15,000 Lebanese troops on the southern border once the Israeli Defense Forces leave Lebanon.

The question now is: Is this a trap for the Lebanese Army? Will Hizbullah agree to hand its arms to the Army? Will they fight the Army for their weapons?...

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

118 comments:

Helen said...

To Doha:
your posts have made me proud to be of Lebanese Heritage. I do not know how to tell our Seniora God Bless you, as a historian I assure you he will be remembered as a great man.

Dimitry said...

What will happen is that Hiz would attack Israel, and then, if (or rather, since) the Lebanese troops won't do anything, Israel would draw fire there, probably involving those troops. Of course, in the unlikely case the Lebanese force won't behave like UN but rather attempt to rein them in, well, it would be the Lebanese government that attacked Hiz, wouldn't it?

Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

At least it will prevent Hezbollah from harrassing Christian villages in the South

Hassan said...

Doha, 'Is this a trap for the Lebanese Army?'

So there is a conspiracy theorist inside you after all!! :P

dougjnn said...

Doha-

Passage of the UN ceasefire resolution is now being delayed until at least the end of this week due to Lebanese and Arab objections.

Immediate ceasefire and negotiating a withdrawl are simply incompatible.
There is simply no way around the fact that it is now Lebanon and other Arab states which are delaying the ceasefire
The time and place to negotiate the words and terms and timing of an Israeli withdrawl is obviously in the larger political agreement. It's also obviously going to be contingent on the international force arriving together with the Lebanese army.

Hassan said...

'There is simply no way around the fact that it is now Lebanon and other Arab states which are delaying the ceasefire'

I think you need to do two things:
1) read the draft resolution. It says 'cessation of hostilities'

2) do u think Israel will abide by that? they wouldn't even abide by a ceasefire. they killed four UN officers a few days ago. does the UN have any power over Israel? did it ever?

GSH - Observer said...

dougjnn;

Lebanon is rejecting the resolution becuase it is only a Cease Fire, we don't want a cease fire we need a Solution.

this resolution will do absolutly nothing...Israel will stay in the south and HA will use this as an excuse to hit the IDF, and according to the resolution IDF has the right to hit back....

this resolution is a band-aid....we need a Solution.

dougjnn said...

Hassan said...
read the draft resolution. It says 'cessation of hostilities

Kofi Annan explained the difference between ‘ceasefire’ and ‘cessation of hostilities’. The later is what you can get ‘immediately’, i.e. quickly. The former involves a wider political agreement. (Not as comprehensive as a full peace treaty, but wider.) Such as typically providing for troop withdrawl and solutions to the causes of the war.

do u think Israel will abide by that?

I think Israel wants to wind down this war, yes. I’m quite sure she’ll trade a cessation of bombing raids on Lebanese infrastructure and supposed rocket locations for a cessation of rocket attacks at this stage. That’s what Rice was getting at when she said skirmishes might continue.

Actually I think Israel probably is willing to end skirmishes as well if Hezbollah will do the same.

The bombing has already achieved deterrent effect and it probably looks to Israel like a signficantly longer war will be necessary to degrade Hezbollah much further.

root cause said...

I'm sorry, but the U.N. is an absolute joke who holds no authority what-so-ever. Israel ignores them, Lebanon ignores them, Iran ignores them, hell, the U.S. even ignores them. If this conflict is going to be left up to the U.N., then get ready for a LONG up-hill battle.

dougjnn said...

GSH - Observer said...
this resolution will do absolutly nothing...Israel will stay in the south and HA will use this as an excuse to hit the IDF, and according to the resolution IDF has the right to hit back....

So what was all the wailing about an immediate ceasefire?

Of course IDF can hit back. Do you want them to turn the other cheek?

If Israel halts hostilities and Hez attacks it most of the world e.g. the Euros will then blame Hezbollah and to some extent Lebanon for standing up for them on this.

Anyway stopping rockets for stopping aerial bombardment would be progress for Lebanon wouldn’t?

this resolution is a band-aid....we need a Solution.

If you read Israeli papers at all you would know that very few Israelis want to stay in Lebanon this time. There are a few, but a very few. They far prefer an international force, together with the Lebanese army. But they don’t want to go before that’s moving in.

Moving that in will take some time and requires political agreements.

If you want the bombing to continue in the meantime, ok, dither over terms.

This is just the first step.

Don’t you realize that the US has moved to pretty much the Euro position. Probably cause Israel has decided it’s time to end this thing, or is ambivalent about it and persuadable.

1earth said...

"this resolution will do absolutly nothing...Israel will stay in the south and HA will use this as an excuse to hit the IDF, and according to the resolution IDF has the right to hit back...."

The cessation of hostilities would stop the dying. It would allow people to move around and get supplies. It would make it possible for a peacekeeping force to arrive and replace the IDF, it would allow a political solution to take form. Israel appears willing to abide by it. There's a chance to end the violence but the pro-hezbollah arabs refuse to take it when all Hezbollah has to do is stop looking for excuses to fight.

dougjnn said...

Root cause--
I'm sorry, but the U.N. is an absolute joke who holds no authority what-so-ever. Israel ignores them, Lebanon ignores them, Iran ignores them, hell, the U.S. even ignores them. If this conflict is going to be left up to the U.N., then get ready for a LONG up-hill battle.

The point of this resolution is to assuage world and Arab anger at the US and to implicitly offer a deal to Hezbollah. Israel is now willing to trade stopping it’s air bombardments of Lebanese infrastructure and rockets if Hez will stop its rocket attacks. That’s what Rice was getting at when she said skirmishes might continue.

Further I imagine Israel will stop all hostilities but remain in place for now while diplomacy continues, and see what Hezbollah does. If Hez attacks Israeli ground forces then Israel resumes ground campaign, and it’s clearly Hez’s fault.

GSH - Observer said...

dougjnn;

I'm affraid it is up to IDF or HA none of them will stop.that's why i see this as a band-aid.

The Leb Gov said that they are ready to send the army if the IDF goes back to the blue line.

and the Gov added that their would be ONE army (armed entity) wherever the Lebanses army deploy.

The Leb Army Should stop the rockets from the Lebanese border so that the IDF will have no excuse to retaliate.

GSH - Observer said...

1earth;

Please read the US-French proposal...it is called "cessation of hostilities " but it does not enforce it or guaranty it.

I'm not against stoping the war, but when a resolutionis just rethoric it is of no good.
we need action.

1earth said...

gsh, you are trying to spin this into a victory for Hezbollah. Israel is not again going to give the impression that it is withdrawing under fire. A cessation of hostilities is what's needed. At the least it stops the civilian casualties from Hezbollah's rockets and Israeli bombings.

Dimitry said...

The Leb Gov said that they are ready to send the army if the IDF goes back to the blue line.

and the Gov added that their would be ONE army (armed entity) wherever the Lebanses army deploy.



Does that mean they'll fight HA if the latter would refuse to disarm?

GSH - Observer said...

No...no...no....
Please don't miss read my point here.
Israel said it will withdraw only when the Lebanese Army is willing to take over the south....
teh Leb Gov said it is willing to send the army to the south if the IDF withdraw.
isn't that reciprocal ?

HA is never victoriuos when it casuse that much death and destruction.

dougjnn said...

GSH - Observer said...
but it does not enforce it or guaranty it.

The UN has no army. No nation that does is willing to fight either Hezbollah or Israel to force either one to stop. The US will not lean hard on Israel to stop if Hezbollah won’t also. The resolution is the mechanism for seeing if Hezbollah will stop as well, while negotiations proceed.

So far Hezbollah is saying no. That will become apparent to the world when the resolution is passed, Israel tries stopping, and Hezbollah keeps fighting anyway, using Israeli presence in Lebanon while negotiations are proceeding as it’s excuse.

That will vastly reduce world pressure on the US. But I think we want the cessation of hostilities to hold.

GSH - Observer said...

dimitry;

If the Leb army assumes responsabilty over south Lebanon...then yes...they have impose the Gov authority on this area...even if it will leads to fight with HA.

GSH - Observer said...

dougjnn;

I have no problem if they send UN forces to Inforce this resolution if possible.

trust me my friend this resolution - as it is - it won't hold a day.

Red Domino said...

"
this resolution will do absolutly nothing...Israel will stay in the south and HA will use this as an excuse to hit the IDF, and according to the resolution IDF has the right to hit back....

So what was all the wailing about an immediate ceasefire?

Of course IDF can hit back. Do you want them to turn the other cheek?
"

Which is why the current draft will change nothing! As long as the IDF keeps controlling the south, Hezbollah will keep attacking them, and like you said, the IDF will strike back, and within 48 hours the entire resolution will go to hell.

"
If you read Israeli papers at all you would know that very few Israelis want to stay in Lebanon this time. There are a few, but a very few. They far prefer an international force, together with the Lebanese army. But they don’t want to go before that’s moving in.
"

I agree, but back in 1982 very few israelis wanted to stay in Lebanon for almost 20 years, but appearenly,the public was misled by the generals at the time.

I needn't remind you that initially no ground force was supposed to cross the border, but suddenly some generals are pushing the operation as far as the Litani river.

Dimitry said...

gsh,

I agree that it should happen. I simply doubt it will.

1earth said...

gsh, the Western media is giving the impression that Lebanonese army will not go south until after Israel withdraws.
International peacekeepers won't arrive until the violence stops.
Israel is insisting on a 'changing of the guard' scenario where they don't leave until another force arrives.
Hence a stop in the violence, a cessation of hostilities is what's needed for international peacekeepers to arrive, Israel to withdraw, and the Lebanese army to arrive.

Raja said...

Doha,

this is no trap. As you mentioned in your entry, the decision to send the army was a unanimous cabinet decision - a cabinet with four or five shi'a members, 2 of which represent Hizballah.

I am cautiously optimistic that this decision (including the conclusion of the conference of Arab ministers) may signify the beginning of the end of this calamity.

Vox, I have to say that I am a tad bit dissapointed in you.

dougjnn said...

GSH - Observer said...
Israel said it will withdraw only when the Lebanese Army is willing to take over the south.... teh Leb Gov said it is willing to send the army to the south if the IDF withdraw. isn't that reciprocal ?

Israel wants both a robust international force and the Lebanese army to deploy as a buffer in the south before it withdraws. It probably will insist on a number of other things as well, only some of which it will get, because Hezbollah isn’t in a giving frame of mind and the Seniora government appears to be scared silly of Hezbollah especially at the moment. Which means the negotiations will drag on. Israel wants Hezbollah to disarm but it’s not going to get any iron clad commitments to any enforcement of that by military means. (No one is going to take on the IDF’s job for it.) It also wants the international force/Lebanese army to patrol the Syrian border and air and sea ports to keep rockets out of the country. Lebanon wants Shebba farms. If America’s smart she’ll get Israel to tie that and a landmines map to Hezbollah disarming.

This is all tied together with Israel withdrawing. You think that is going to be resolved in the next few days?

How long do you want the bombs to keep falling, and the rockets raining?

Dimitry said...

raja - are you saying that HA agreed to disarming itself?

GSH - Observer said...

Guys;

I'm glad your Optemistic about this resolution...

1earth i see the difference btw the Israeli & the Leb. approach to this issue. i see what you mean.

I will try to be as optemistic as you guys...let's hope it will work.

To be honest with you i don't trust armed entities, usually they are on a power trip, each side things he is winnig the war...I don;t know about you, but i haven't heard of a Winning army that looks for peace and
cease fire.

Let's hope you're right.

dimitry
I believe the Gov has to be responsable and needs to take difficult decisions when it comes to south Lebanon.
The army can't afford to fail, it will be a disaster.

dougjnn said...

GSH - Observer said...
trust me my friend this resolution - as it is - it won't hold a day.

If it doesn’t and Israel is careful to ensure that it’s obvious that Hezbollah was the one that first violated it, particularly by rockets, world blame will shift much more on Hezbollah and now more Lebanon as well, for sticking up for Hezbollah’s position. And the pressure on America (and to some extent Israel) will go way down, while the bombing resumes – and Lebanon sinks further.

Joel said...

In the long run, if Lebanon is to remain intact (not a settled issue, IMHO), it's the Lebanese Army that's going to have to muzzle/stomp on the Hezboldogs in the south.

But we've been hearing for four weeks now that the Lebanese army is small, weak, and inept -- has that changed? If the Lebanese army can't control Hezbollah in the south, then what possible point would there be in the IDF withdrawing to let them take over the job?

Is this simply a scam by the Lebanese government to try to talk Israel into withdrawing and letting Hezbollah back in?

Sounds to me like a clumsy ploy, even if it goes as "planned."

abou al jamejem said...

Now guys, let get this straight: Huzeballa agreed on sending 15000 lebanese troops to the south after they have refused to do so for the last 6 years. So basically they were wrong all these years and now under the pressure of the israeli bombs they agree. If they have agreed 6 years ago we won't see all these destruction that we are seeing today. Wow, I am really impressed, Smart move Huzeballa!! you destroyed the entire country by your actions.

dougjnn said...

raja—
I am cautiously optimistic that this decision (including the conclusion of the conference of Arab ministers) may signify the beginning of the end of this calamity.

Yes. Depending on Hezbollah.

I think the way forward is this. UN SC resolution goes forward pretty much as drafted, with minor tweaks to be responsive to Arab concerns. Actual Israeli withdrawl before wider agreement is a non starter though.

It’s apparent to me that America now wants Israel to wind this down and Israel does as well, while leaving the situation somewhat ambiguous until it gets political terms it can live with.

Israel stops air fighting and ground troops halt in place. If Hez stops as wll that will continue indefinitely while political terms are worked on and the international force is agreed, organized, assembled and stage in. If Hez doesn’t stop rocket attacks because Israel is in occupation then world blame will shift away from Israel and the US and towards Hezbollah and Lebanon.

Israel holds its forces in place pretty much defensively unless Hez attacks them in which case the skirmishing Rice talked about goes on, but without rockets and air strikes (except maybe close air support of threatened Israeli troops.) Israel might also step up it’s ground campaign if the international force starts unraveling, but it doesn’t look to me like Israel really wants to. It’s not only tired of the rocket attacks, it’s also tired of the IDF casualities.

In the political agreement Israel won’t withdraw from Lebanon until an international force of it’s liking together with the Lebanese army comes in. Israel won’t agree to only Lebanese army initially because in the current hot environment it doesn’t trust it (to not be co-opted or cowed by Hezbollah). The force led by the French won’t come in unless not only the Lebanese government but also Hez itself agrees to let them come in and remain without fighting them. Unlike the US, France will talk directly to Nasrallah. Israel will also try to tie an agreement by Hez to disarm to it’s withdrawing, but all it will get is some sort of undertaking by the Lebanese government and maybe the international force. Neither will agree to do so by force. Israel will get an undertaking to patrol the borders for rockets and other arms for Hez from the Lebanese government. That might or might not actually work, or keep working. There will be a prisoner exchange before withdrawl as well.

Hopefully the US can get Israel to be smart and agree to hand over Shebba farms when and if Hezbollah sufficiently disarms. Probably just rockets. Also the landmine map, except perhaps for mines right on the border. That takes away Hezbollah’s issues with Israel that have nationalist resonance beyond Hezbollah.

Maybe the Lebanese government agrees to a census and election of parliament on a more directly representative basis, if Hez will fully disarm. Offers prospect of more Shi’a political representation in return for Hez not being able to easily hold the country hostage by force of it’s arms. Then again maybe that would lead to an Iran style theocracy, you tell me.

dougjnn said...

Joel--
Is this simply a scam by the Lebanese government to try to talk Israel into withdrawing and letting Hezbollah back in?

I think Hezbollah figures they can turn it into a sham by a combination of cowing and co-opting the (heavily Shi’a) Lebanese army. I think Seniora and much of the rest of the government are a combination of cowed right now and kidding themselves into thinking it’s some kind of a solution, or that the international community can be made to think it is.

So yes.

Of course the international force is to some extent a sham as well, in common with other peacekeeping forces. Where it might do some good is in inspecting Syrian border trucks to keep rockets out.

Hezbollah has been talking about “settling scores” later. There’ve been a lot of assassinations in Lebanon over the last few years, usually blamed mostly on Syria, but Hezbollah is allied, and has been making independent threats.

Doha said...

Hassan,

Why I meant by "trap" has nothing to do with being conspiracy theories? I dislike conspiracy theories. For the longest time Hassan we used to hear of the "danger" in sending the Army to the south and this is why when the government is calling for it, I just start to get scared. There is Israel to deal with and Hizbullah as well. And we know that the Army should not get entangled in politics.

I'm proud of our troops and wish them the best of luck.

Boutros said...

I don't have to much confidence in the Lebanese army accomplishing to much. They will likely occupy some locations that the Isrealis are willing to move out of and other locations that HA doesn't want, which will put them in between a rock and a hard place.

Syria and HA will be eager to minimize the Lebanese army being veiwed as compitent and heroic so be on the look out for events that illustrate their weaknesses.

Lebanon will need to bring in outside forces quickly (within the next week) to butress the army if this is ever going to work.

The success of this will be determined within a short time.

Carmel said...

i'm afraid we won't trust each other, there has to be an international force there.

dougjnn said...

Doha--
For the longest time Hassan we used to hear of the "danger" in sending the Army to the south and this is why when the government is calling for it, I just start to get scared. There is Israel to deal with and Hizbullah as well. And we know that the Army should not get entangled in politics.

Well sometimes bad alternative have to be chosen over worse ones. Like continued bombing.

But for the reasons you raise, as well as Israeli and American concerns that the Lebanese army in the present hot circumstances will be a combination of cowed and co-opted by Hezbollah, the best solution for everyone is that the force deployed to the south should be a combination of the Lebanese army and a robust international force. For everyone other than Hezbollah that is.

Unfortunately it’s looking like the Lebanese government is at the moment quite thoroughly cowed by Hezbollah.

It should be jumping at this resolution. It should want the international force to come in.

root cause said...

I agree that an international force must be deployed to "assist" the lebanese army for this to be successful. The question then is what international force?? I don't think the french "force" will cut it. A NATO force similiar to the one in Afganistan would probably be the best bet. I don't think a U.S. led force would work at all due to the history between the Israeli and the U.S. not to mention HA has already killed over 240 marines the last time they were in Lebanon. Any thoughts?

Itai said...

Don't get to excited, this is just another ball in this diplomatic ping-pong.
The deployment of the Lebanes army is the ultimate solution but does anybody here believe that a decision of the Lebanese government is all that it takes?

If it was up to the Lebanese government it would have happened a year ago. The real progress here is that HZA ministers apparently agreed to it. But:
1. They might have done it just to take the heat of HZA and they will renounce it later.
2. Since the Lebanese army is weak and lacks the will to subdue the HZA militia, it's all really up to HZA.

So until Lebanon can offer sufficient guarantees (directly from Nasrallah) that they can fulfill this resolution a cease fire isn't in sight.

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Shmulik said...

Ibn nagerla

If the LAF engages the IDF in combat to support the HZB (as you suggest), than Lebanon has just commited a public suicide. I really hope you are wrong.

Itai said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dougjnn said...

root cause said...

A NATO force similiar to the one in Afganistan would probably be the best bet.

Nobody but the Israelis want the Americans in the force, including most of all we Americans. Overstretch and too tempting a target. The balance of NATO doesn’t want to do it and FEELs overstretched because of Afganistan and Bosnia. France, Italy and Turkey have been mentioned and haven’t screamed no.

But the thing is the force will be made somewhat robust as make believe for the Israelis. Mostly some of the Israeli public. It isn’t going to fight Hezbollah. It’s going to tell on Hezbollah. It’s maybe going to patrol the borders with Syria and conduct inspections to keep out new rockets. It’s going to sit in a buffer zone on Israel’s borders to make it less tempting for Hezbollah to raid and to make it harder to improve Katyusha accuracy with short range.

Israel doesn't trust the Lebanese army alone to do even these things. And it has to pretend to have a robust force on it's border for political reasons.

barroon said...

Doha
why u start to dubt ?! HB agreed that Army take full control in south

otinkyaaf said...

I also saw somewhere that Lebanon is calling back to active duty all soldiers that had served in the past five years.

ibn nagrela said...

since idf has already killed several laf in operation grapes of bloodbath and siniora is presumably coordinating with hizbollah (through berri) to deploy 15,000 laf, it would seem siniora is creating a united pan-lebanese front (laf and hizbollah) to resist the latest example of excessive, extraterritorial, miscalculated zionist aggression.

[ if link does not redirect to story, cut and paste http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dynamic/News.php?NewsID=37557〈=fra&NewsRubrique=2 ]

zionist - Siniora won't send the Lebanese army to the slaughter.

a pan-lebanese response to zionist aggression would be consistent with siniora's appeal for unity. the real question is: will olmert blink, would israel risk inciting a wider, more intense regional conflagaration by slaughtering lebanese forces.

dougjnn said...

Barroon—
why u start to dubt ?! HB agreed that Army take full control in south

No, they said it can deploy to the south. Where Hezbollah figures it can cow them into doing nothing. While meanwhile Hezbollah can claim that it’s chased Israel out of Lebanon again.

Israel won’t withdrawl until the international force arrives. If accompanied by the Lebanese army, fine.

If Hezbollah won’t stop fighting until Israel withdraws, then the bombing will continue, and it will be seen by most of the world to be clearly Hezbollah’s fault.

Joel said...

Oh, putting American soldiers in, as good as they are, is a bad idea; see what happened in 1982. American soldiers aren't easily expendable; most of the time, this is a feature, not a bug.

On the other hand, the French Foreign Legion consists entirely of officers and utterly expendable enlisted soldier, and with a proper (non-French) command structure, they could be expected to engage with Hezbollah, and respond with their traditional overreaction (see the Ivory Coast) when they take casualties.

That said, there's not enough of them -- but fill the force out with some Turks (not known for their restraint in combat), and if the international force has the right brief and the right command structure, it could work out well.

Which suggests to me, of course, that one of those necessary things won't happen -- the Lebanese government is too weak and indecisive to do something that would result in the muzzling of the dogs.

ibn nagrela said...

If Hezbollah won’t stop fighting until Israel withdraws, then the bombing will continue, and it will be seen by most of the world to be clearly Hezbollah’s fault.

exhibit a: zionist delusion. fox news american.

dougjnn said...

ibn nagrela said...
it would seem siniora is creating a united pan-lebanese front (laf and hizbollah) to resist the latest example of excessive, extraterritorial, miscalculated zionist aggression.

You’re dreaming. Suicidal dreams at that.

Israel would crush the LAF, and also then have reason to take out much wider parts of Lebanon. Siniora’s command and control for example. The whole cabinets. And so on.

SadLebaneseGirl said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dTXzji50M4&mode=related&search=

great great video, and those of Georges Galloway, check it people, for some truth!

The Middle East News Addict said...

This is a couragous move by the Lebanese government towards the end of this conflict. Needless to say this was the Israeli government demand from day 1 and that it is unfortunate it ook the lives of 900 Lebanese and 80 Israelis to get there.

I think that this is what made Syria's foreign minister storm out in anger from the Arab FM meeting as Prime Minister Seniora and others have made it clear to him that Lebanon will no longer be the scapegoat for Syria and Iran's ambitions through their proxy Hezbollah.

Joel said...

Oh, I think Lebanon will continue to be the scapegoat. It's so convenient for Syria and Iran, after all, to fight their war with Israel with the collateral damage happening in another country.

Shmulik said...

Ibn nagrela

What you are suggesting is inconvinient to Israel but will be a nightmare for Lebanon. Please explain how the LAF + HZB are going to engage the IDF? How can they stop the fighter jets? can they stop the IDF ground forces from reaching the litani river or beyond)? The HZB as a guerilla organization can cause casaulties but it can't stop the IDF, the LAF will fare even worse. If the LAF engages Israel than it's a Lebanon VS Israel war and nothing can prevent Israel from removing the gloves and destroying power, communications, water and so on in Lebanon. Do you think your brave arab brothers will rush to your aid?

dougjnn said...

ibn nagrela said...

exhibit a: zionist delusion. fox news american.

American yes. Not Zionist and not Jewish, nor Lebanese. Politically centrist, overall, though depends on the issue. Liberal on some things, conservative (in a thoroughly secular sort of way) on some others.

I think Israel is often really pig headed and over reaching in fact. I don’t like Olmert’s plan for the fence root at all, for example, and think it should be at least close to the green line. I think Israel should try much harder with the Palestinians than she has since the Taba deal collapsed in 2000.

I see this conflict from many points of view. Primarily Real Politic.

I watch/listen/web view BBC news and PBS and NPR and CNN and Fox. I get as many points of view as I can and have time for. I go to Aljazeera’s English site. And Beirut newspaper sites. And so on.

ibn nagrela said...

Israel would crush the LAF, and also then have reason to take out much wider parts of Lebanon. Siniora’s command and control for example. The whole cabinets. And so on.

you are truly gifted... with the clarity of lead. yes, crushing laf would crush israel's quest for regional peace & stability, may incite other actors to act; further isolating israel/u.s. from europe, russia, china, muslims, the world; destabiliting petro prices along the way.

"and so on" -- yes. so enter, directly, syria. iran. jordan. even and perhaps others; including egypt.

GeorgeBest said...

All you arab zionist collaboraters that sympathize with Israel need to read this. The Israeli government is using more human shields than anybody else.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/06/rs.01.html

Thomas Ricks, Pentagon reporter for "The Washington Post" and author of the new book "Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq."

Tom Ricks, you've covered a number of military conflicts, including Iraq, as I just mentioned. Is civilian casualties increasingly going to be a major media issue? In conflicts where you don't have two standing armies shooting at each other?


THOMAS RICKS, REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think it will be. But I think civilian casualties are also part of the battlefield play for both sides here. One of the things that is going on, according to some U.S. military analysts, is that Israel purposely has left pockets of Hezbollah rockets in Lebanon, because as long as they're being rocketed, they can continue to have a sort of moral equivalency in their operations in Lebanon.

KURTZ: Hold on, you're suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of it's fire power, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here?

RICKS: Yes, that's what military analysts have told me.

KURTZ: That's an extraordinary testament to the notion that having people on your own side killed actually works to your benefit in that nobody wants to see your own citizens killed but it works to your benefit in terms of the battle of perceptions here.

RICKS: Exactly. It helps you with the moral high ground problem, because you know your operations in Lebanon are going to be killing civilians as well.

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

ougjnn - Primarily Real Politic.

try this for realpolitik: you disarm bush, now. you disarm israel, now. we disarm hizbollah, now.

deal?

Lirun said...

the only reasoni want an international force - is not because i dont trust the lebanese.. on the contrary - i do trust them and i believe that stepping up to the plate is a testament to courage.. however - the HA have been training and implementing for years and the Lebanese army is relatively inexperienced.. i want a force to train them and prep them so they can be effective and strategic..

i also want the lebanese army to represent the lebanese values and serve a source of pride and confidence in the national institutions.. i think lebanon with all of its layers deserves this..

wishing peace to all of us..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
hope soon we shall strengthen eachother

ibn nagrela said...

story from broken link at 5:40pm

Six Lebanese Soldiers Killed In Airstrikes - Officials
Sunday August 6th, 2006 / 14h32

BEIRUT (AP)--Six members of the Lebanese military were killed Sunday in Israeli airstrikes in south Lebanon, security officials said.

Five soldiers were killed in raids on the village of Debbin, about 10 kilometers north of the Israeli border and near the Christian town of Marjayoun, the officials said.
One Lebanese army intelligence officer was killed and seven soldiers were wounded in an Israeli strike on Mansouri, about 10 kilometers south of Tyre on the Mediterranean coast, the same officials said.

Sunday August 6th, 2006 / 14h32
provided by: Dowjones Business News

Shmulik said...

Ibn nagrela

I thought you are a lunatic but now I see the light, you are utterly insane. You really think Jordan and Egypt who prosper from the peace with Israel and rely (at least Egypt) on american foreign aid (Do you think egyptian M1A1 tanks and F-16s are NOT from America?) will just start a war with a superpower AND a regional power while a hugh american army sits in Iraq and the gulf staes? Do you think Saudi-arabia and the gulf states (who rely on western weapons and american protection will agree send their economies to hell and refuse to export oil? Maybe Russia or China will send their forces to Lebanon to help you? Perhaps you think you can bootlick enough to Assad so Syria will help you but Assad will not commit suicide for you. This is realpolitik and not your crazy rumblings.

anothervoice66 said...

Re Doha's original post -
Finally a light at the end of the tunnel!!
That is (and has been all along) a shared interest if both Israel and Sovreign Lebanon! lets help to make it happen as soon as possible, every day that passes means more lives wasted!

Loli said...

anothervoice66 said...
Re Doha's original post -
lets help to make it happen as soon as possible, every day that passes means more lives wasted!

... or SAVED, if we strive for peace. :)

dougjnn said...

Excellent opinion piece in The Times (of London). The money quote:

What Hezbollah rejects, the feeble Lebanese Government is powerless to endorse, however obvious it is that Lebanon needs a ceasefire far more urgently than it needs an Israeli withdrawal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-2302720,00.html

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

Shmulik - {skip zionist blather} ... This is realpolitik and not your crazy rumblings.

the only crazies i see are zionist zombies drowning in militaristic saliva.

realpolitik vs "real military": regime suicide trumps peace agreements. jordan and egypt would risk the former by not responding to restive masses demanding an end to zionist aggression. both can provide direct assistance without direct confrontation. syria is not lebanon's saviour & no match for idf's war machine, but opening & sustaining another front would be even more costly to israel. meanwhile, opec need not "refuse to export oil" to effect retaliation. while russia/china can exert the considerable leverage as critical partners & suppliers to arab/iranian clients -- without "sending forces." eu states can also strangle israel through trade tariffs, restrictions, cancellations.

there are many ways to destroy zionism (for the purpose of distilling an israeli state at peace & compatible with its neighbors) without attempting to ruinously match israel's costly, conventional militarism.
----

earlier meshugga ramblings:

israel was, in part, "founded" on terrorism. hagannah, irgun, lehi etc. were the asymmetric forebears of hamas, hizbollah et al.; militating against a non-semitic hegemon (britain) over issues of territoriality. haganah's military wing (palmach) eventually became legitimate (idf), just as hizbollah may eventually become legitimate (under its own separate command) within laf.

olmert's "overreaction" to a militant attack against a military patrol was variously described as an "opportunity", "birth pangs", a "gift from god" to reshape the middle east by the same lunatics who "made up" weapons of mass destruction to "reshape" iraq.

these lunatics have already reshaped iraq into an improvised explosive device. olmert has done the same with lebanon -- as a zionist lackey to american lunacy.

one would think israel would be smarter than to do anything that george w. bush deems "good", laid out, no doubt, in the american president's god-whispers-to-me crusader lunacy. so how could israel be so stupid? why did olmert not stop when the crazy cowboy gave israel the "green light?" if a drunk tells you there's a bridge where you see none, do you keep on driving? olmert does. olmert did.

olmert's overreach typifies the zionist coward overcompensating for balls he never had (like bush), who never proved himself in battle (again like bush). worse and more tragically, olmert is wasting the blood of lebanese and israelis in a "war" that never had to be fought.

israel's unlimited capacity to wage (conventional) war remains problematic & destabilising; a club israel often, reflexively and irresponsibly wields without credible, "actionable" threats to its existence. (why is a hizbollah scheme to exchange prisoners any more threatening in 2006 than it was in 2000? hizbollah did not attack israeli civilians when it kidnapped idf soldiers in 2000 (and before); it did not attack israeli civilians when it did the same in 2006)

some have suggested renewed efforts to build lebanon's conventional military force [to a level comparable with idf]. this [portends economic suicide].

when we build a conventional military with the "idea" of defending our state against illegal & illegitimate zionist invasion, we are not competing against israel & its idf; we are competing against america and its massive, monolithic "military industrial complex." we would and will bankrupt our economies just to buy stones; while israel is completely subsidized, armed, supported by the world's only reigning superpower.

but america is not our enemy. a sane america under sane leadership would realize its interests are not identical nor dependent on israel. ergo, israel can be cut down to size with a "correction" to american foreign policy, once america regains its credibility & legitimacy as an impartial broker (which actually benefits israel long term).

meanwhile, we've suggested how, especially with european cooperation, one could cut zionist bullies down to size. a) trade tariffs and restrictions on israeli exports levied by the eu; eu cancellation or suspension of pending deals, contracts (europe is israels biggest trade partner/market). b) coercive or punitive retaliation by opec against the u.s. to pressure israel. c) nukes.

nukes possessed by every neighboring state would be the geopolitical, geostrategic equalizer against uncontrolled, unaccountable, unrestrained zionist aggression.

ask yourselves: would zionist warmongers "act" so impulsively to destroy lebanon no matter how many idf soldiers were kidnapped by hizbollah had lebanon possessed a single, deliverable nuke? would olmert at least "consult" siniora before launching operation "grapes of bloodbath" knowing siniora had at least one button to push? giving siniora at least some leverage to "negotiate" parameters of engagement before israel dropped its first bomb or killed a single civilian?

iran acquired a dozen radar-defeating kh-55 cruise missles from the ukraine. pakistan probably has close to 100 nuclear warheads. with or without their own nuclear programs, muslim states can, should, even must unite -- for their survival. even with only one such cm + wh in each state's possession, israel's neighbors -- bound by a self-defense alliance pact like nato's -- could quickly castrate zionist excessive, extraterritorial aggression once and for all.

deterrence is a goal. stability is a goal. security is a goal. with lebanese security no less important than israeli security --- israel's sovereignty no more sovereign than jordan's, syria's, egypts, iran's -- or lebanon's.

m.a.d.? a risky, very risky deterrent; but a sure best way to equalize state security, to ensure lebanese security; to castrate or at least shrink the balls on our zionist u.s. fed-and-bred bull.

Chas said...

Doha,
it is a high risk and courageous strategy. Perhaps the last chance for the legitimate Lebanese govt to assert itself.
And it neatly counterbalances a flawed UN resolution.
I hope it works .. my hopes for peace are with you.

1earth said...

ibn, how many times are you going to post that rant?

You fail to consider the fact that Israel has nukes, America has nukes, Russia has nukes, India has nukes, the UK has nukes, that doesn't protect any of them from the devestating attacks by Muslims, the bomb won't save Lebanon either.

Lebanon can't even control their own villagers holding a gun to the heads of Lebanese politicians, grow up and start acting like a nation before you boast about acquiring nukes.

Right now you sound like Bin Laden, so frustrated about being an impotent islamist from a failed Islamic civilization stuck in the 12th century and regressing fast towards the 7th. You're obsessed with honor and acts of aggression to prove your manhood when in reality you're some of the most uneducated, illiterate and backwards people on the planet.

abou al jamejem said...

To georgebest, your method of calling other lebanese "zionist" because they speak out against huzeballa is not going to work her, pal. here is a place for real patiriotic lebanes who don't fear huseballa's intimidation and terror. Syria killed with the help of Huzballa: Rafiq Hariri and his comarads, George Hawi, tried to kill Miiy shoudiak, killed Samir Kassir, and fnally they killed geoubran el twayni.

Huzeballa agreed on sending 15000 lebanese troops to the south after they have refused to do so for the last 6 years. So basically they were wrong all these years and now under the pressure of the israeli bombs they agree. If they have agreed 6 years ago we won't see all these destruction that we are seeing today. Wow, I am really impressed, Smart move Huzeballa!! you destroyed the entire country by your actions.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

ibn - The Israelis don't want to destroy Lebanon. Only in your perverse fantasies is this the case. The Israeli want to protect themselves from the fanatical and genocidal Hezbollah, whose racist leader Nasrallah has preached genocide of the jewish people. I'm not kidding. If Lebanon had controlled their rabid dog in the first place, none of this would have happened. You insult the intelligence of the other participants with your paranoid fantasies of Israel coveting Lebanese land. If they really wanted Lebanon they would have stayed in 2000 and they could easily take it back now. But why would they? Apart from Lebanon having some wildly beautiful women and ecologies, there is nothing there Israel wants aside from a warm peace. You know they don't have plans to annex Lebanese land. You just distort facts in order to kindle the fire of your hate for Israel. Sadly it would seem you hate Israel more than you love Lebanon. How sad. How self-destructive.

ZoeyLola said...

I have been following this site for a few weeks. I have learned so much. Thank you to everyone! I am an American and I have a question. I am really sorry if it sounds stupid. Someone recently said to me that The Arab world should be more upset than it is with Iran's involvement because they are not even Arab's-They are Persian's killing Arabs. Can anyone speak to this? Thank you.

ibn nagrela said...

1earth - You fail to consider the fact that Israel has nukes, America has nukes, Russia has nukes, India has nukes, the UK has nukes, that doesn't protect any of them from the devestating attacks by Muslims, the bomb won't save Lebanon either.

you fail to understand our sober, wary, complete comprehension of m.a.d. & its implications; and refuse to acknowledge the regional, destabilising reality of zionist racism, aggression, hegemony. what can we say?

you are an american exemplar of fox news advertising for superpower arrogance, geopolitical ignorance.

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

Your kind will never be satisfy with peace and harmony.

Even if israel concedes to all arabs demands, your kind will find another cause to wage war, destruction and hate.

Your kind is frustrated and ailing from inferiority complexe and very uncomfortable with 21st century vertues.

Your kind stopped evolving back in the 6th century which got your mind and values stuck there while the rest of humanity is striving thru the 21st century looking for peace.

I never realy understood why the word HATE was in the dictionary until i heard you describing hoe you feel.

It is very compelling and deep for someone to get to HATE someone else. I still don't understand how it feels and i never will.

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

And as for Hezbollah leaders, they have Syrian and Iranian agendas and don't care much for lebanon or its futur.

Their Kind is exactly like yours and will find many reasons over and over again to wage wars and destruction.

Hezb brought the destruction of lebanon upon our heads.

When this is over, we peace loving lebanese will make sure it will never ever revive to become a threar to us or to any of our neighbors.

Parole d'honneur.

ibn nagrela said...

Fighting Sullyvan said... {nothing}

except more sputa spouting the zionist narrative of exclusive zionist victimization & "anti-semitism" by other semites.

dear dumb yankee, have you -- for an instant -- wondered why israeli arabs in israeli arab cities suffer higher casualty rates than israeli jews in israeli (predominantly) jewish cities? can you provide the per capita number of bomb shelters in israeli arab towns compared to israeli jewish towns? is there any reason why idf might permit clear firing paths (rockets) to israeli arab communities while they prioritzie the elimination of all firing lines to israeli jewish communities? do you know anything about israeli ethonodemocracy, e.g. zionist apartheid? different race-based strata for citizenship? intermarriage? civil marriage? military service? race-based benefits, opportunities for employment?

please carry on.

ibn nagrela said...

chris from the tribe of busholmert said... {nothing}

abou al jamejem said...

Guys I am sick and tired of all Huseballa's supporters and their war oving leader Hasan Z. Neserall ( Z. stands for Zabre). Ibn Negrla you should call yourself Iben Neseralla, and Georgebest u should call yoursel HasanBest. Guys, Huseballa's agenda is exposed, everone now knows that their fighting for the Syrians and the Iranian interests not the lebanese interests.

dougjnn said...

ZoeyLola said...

Someone recently said to me that The Arab world should be more upset than it is with Iran's involvement because they are not even Arab's-They are Persian's killing Arabs. Can anyone speak to this? Thank you.

Well you can and should tend to value an insightful and non polemical Arab response to your question more than mine, as a fellow non-Jewish and non-Lebanese American, but I’ll take a stab, cause I think I know at least something about it.

Of course your question might possibly be more of a prod or provocation knowing full well the issues, but I’ll assume not.

Muslims tend to self identify on the basis of religion and sub religion even more than ethnicity. That is particularly true of fundamentalist Muslims, such as Hezbollah and al Qaeda. The biggest split within Islam is Sunni and Shi’a. Iranians are both Shi’a and ethnically Iranian, so for Sunnis they seem quite foreign – they ring both bells. Not nearly as OTHER as Jewish Israelis (who aren’t Muslims and aren’t Arabs though they are fellow semites and speak a related semitic language), but very other. Shi’a Arabs on the other hand are likely to feel more kinship to Iran than to Sunni Arab states – except sometimes where purely nationalist issues are concerned.

So non-Hezbollah Lebanese have been trying to emphasize Lebanese nationalist loyalties to the their internal Shi’a to wean them from continuing to create a well armed and very well trained and funded Iranian sponsored state within a state in Lebanon.

To date they haven’t been very successful.

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

The bad news: you just proved that unfortunately you are a hopeless case.

The good news: There are less and less species like you in lebanon and there will be none left once this war is over.
They will be relocated either to Syria or Iran. Have fun.

ibn nagrela said...

They will be relocated either to Syria or Iran. Have fun.

while you and your kind flee to israel and the united states?

bon voyage & good riddance.

Sherri said...

I have noticed for years that Israel is identified as involved in human rights violations. And it always relates to how they treat their own Arab and Muslim citizens and other Atab/Muslims, such as the Palestinians. Right now, human rights organizations say there are humanitarian crisis in Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza. People are starving, drinking dirty water, daily made homeless after forced evacuations and bombings and bulldozings of their homes, civilians targeted with bombings, the victims of cluster bombs, and the victims of chemical weapons. In Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza, children make up a large percentage of the deaths.

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

I am sure your kind will be gone to the 6th century, i must say, Syria and Iran.

I will stay right here enjoying the landscape and the freedom of my country Lebanon, and why not, even making peace with Israel.

Eat your heart out!

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

Chris from the tribe of busholmert said... enjoying the landscape and the freedom of my lebanese postcard

do you need a stamp? bon appetit

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

While i do that you go find yourself a cave in syria or iran. There you can scream out all the hatred and frustration you have. No one will care except maybe for the camels.

ibn nagrela said...

chris from the tribe of bush-olmert-and-woody-allen said...i am neurotic. i must have the last word.

it is yours poor thing.

Chris from lebanon said...

Ibn

Again you don't get the point, as i am not surprised giving your state of mind, that you will not be in lebanon once this is over.

It is for your own good Ibn. The freedom and peace we will enjoy will automaticly send tremendous shock wave to your brain, or whats left of it, that it might just destroy whatever left of it.

You crave for hatred and wars, Iran or Syria man. Thats your destination. There you might find a comfortable cave. I heard they have a lot of them.

abou al jamejem said...

does anyone has the link for the interrogation video of the huseballa member who participated in the raid to kidnap the soldiers.

ZoeyLola said...

Thank you dougjnn.

dougjnn said...

ZoeyLola said...

Thank you dougjnn.

My pleasure.

I do hope you get some Arab responses though, both Moslem and Christian. (ctrl f in this wind to find her name, as I’m sure almost all of you know.)

Tichondrius1 said...

Ibn nagrela, does your dad nagrela know what kind of person you become ? maybe he should have given you a good spanking

Shmulik said...

Ibn Nagrela

You are funny. Lets look closely on what you say-
"why israeli arabs in israeli arab cities suffer higher casualty rates than israeli jews in israeli (predominantly) jewish cities? can you provide the per capita number of bomb shelters in israeli arab towns compared to israeli jewish towns? is there any reason why idf might permit clear firing paths (rockets) to israeli arab communities while they prioritzie the elimination of all firing lines to israeli jewish communities?"
1) I work in a hospital ward in northern Israel where most of the doctors are arabs, so I know a bit of what is happening on the border. Northern Israel (Galile and Haifa) has many arabs in it (almost 40%) and that's why so many arabs are killed. There was an opinion that there was a problem with shelters in arab communities but it was discovered that there are problems with civil defense in most of our northern villages.
2) Please explain how can you "eliminate" firing paths to jewish neighborhoods in haifa without the arab neighborhoods (valley Nisnas for example) ?? Only in your crazy dreams it's possible. If you have a problem with israeli-arabs (who vote and work and do anything besides military service which they don't want) than ask your friend Nasarallah not to fire unguided rockets that can't diffrentiate between arabs and jews.

3li- said...

A brief history of this war and its rational...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839281,00.html

Sherri said...

An Ode to Nasarallah

Nasarallah
They call you a terrorist
But is that truth or a lie

You lead Hezbollah
You stand up against Israel
Like David against Goliath

Risking life and all for your country
To defend the honor of your land
A hero to your people

You hunger and thirst for justice
You defend your beliefs
There' honor in that

Ami Grossman said...

Here is my response to the Guardian story:


The author fails to mention that Hizbulla was always the first to violate the ceasefire!!

Here are some of the many "inaccurate" details:

1. "IDF shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators on the border" - They were shot after they were trying to climb on the border fence and break it, and ignored the calls to stop
2. IDF resumed its photo-taking flights, only AFTER HA kidnapped the 3 soldiers in October 2000
3. "none of the incidents resulted in a military escalation" - true, because Israel restrained itself from responding strongly
4. "Hizbullah was seeking to exchange them for the 15 prisoners of war"-
That is the biggest lie. If HA wanted to return only the Lebanese prisoners (including the terrorist Samir Kuntar who shot a 4 years old girl), this could be negotiated.
Nasralla was demanding that Israel will free the 5000 PALESTINIAN terrorists!!

The kidnapping took place after the Palestinian kidnapped an Israeli soldier From an Israeli post on the Gaza border.
5. "that act of aggression was simply one instance in a long sequence of small incursions and attacks over the past six years by both sides" - as I proved,
in all cases Hizbullah was the aggressor!!

6. "a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations... , setting out the plan for the current operation"-
HALF true. Even if the operation plan was prepared in advance, it does not prove anything. Army always makes DRAWER plan for any hypothetical scenario.
And Israel would definitely NOT attack Hizbulla, if Hizbulla hadn't attack it first!

7. "and a million Lebanese displaced from their homes. "
Why do you "forget" to mention that a similar number of Israelis were displaced from their homes?
And none of them kept missiles and ammunition in his home!

8. And here is my answer to your challenge: Israel used the self-restraint policy for 6 years. Unfortunately , this policy was interpreted as Israeli weakness, and only caused HA to make more hostilities.
Why don't you challenge the HA supporters? Perhaps they should try a peace policy for a change?

Ami Grossman

Sherri said...

ami grossman,
What about diplomatic attempts to achieve peace? I don't recall hearing any news about Israel going to the United Nations to try to address the prior Resolution on disarming Hezbollah that had not been satisfied. I do not recall hearing news of meetings with Lebanon officials or the US about this problem? Maybe if there had been more effort to solve the issues diplomatically, those children Israel killed in Lebanon would have had a chance to live their lives.

Sherri said...

Probably, this war is really all about money. Keeping wars going in the Middle East makes money for US arms makers. Maybe, my country is resposible for the deaths of the innocent children of Lebanon.

"The Bush Administration spelled out plans yesterday to sell $4.6 billion of arms to moderate Arab states, including battle tanks worth as much as $2.9 billion to protect critical Saudi infrastructure."

"The announcement came two weeks after the administration said it would sell Israel its latest supply of JP-8 aviation fuel valued at up to $210 milliohn to help Israeli airplanes keep pace and security in the region."

"Contracts to the Pentagon's top ten contractors jumped from $46 billion in 2001 to $80 billion in 2003, an increase of nearly 75%. Haliburton's contracts jumped more than none times their 2001 levels by 2003, from $400 million to $3.9 billion. Northrop Grumman's contracts doubled, from $5.2 billion to $11.1 billion, over the same time frame: and the nation's largest weapons contractor, Lockheed Martin, saw a 50% increase, from $14.7 billion to $21.9 billion."

www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=9466 and article references a Reuters article

Sherri said...

Amy Grossman,
I just now looked at the Guardian article and its claim that the Israel response was pre-planned. Then, I look again at the arms deals Bush has been negotiating with Israel and the moderate Arab countries, and wonder if that was part of the plan to. How convenient, the timing of all of these events. The war makes money for the arms dealers and a way for Israel to get rid of or weaken its enemies, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. And the war's cost is the lives of the children of Lebanon.

Lirun said...

Sherri

i am bored of responded to your one-sidedness.. i think your comments could simply say "i hate israel no matter what.."

why spend your creativity on attempts at poetry..

anyway - and to the message i would like to convey.. i think we have an opportunity at something real with the deployment of lebanese troops through the south..

i hope they receive adequate training and equipment to cope with the stress..

in my eyes.. the 15000 are very courageous..

this morning seeing the Lebanese leader cry on tv was much more moving than it was just to read about it..

such a powerful message to the region.. i understood the following:

no lebanon is not a puppet

no lebanon is not iran

no lebanon is not france

but rather lebanon is arab - just like egypt.. jordan.. saudi arabia.. syria.. etc.. and where is exactly the care of the arabs and why are they not rallying stronger behind lebanon who has stood behind them..

i also understood that the decision to regain control of lebanon was made as a conscious arab state attempting to establish its sovereignty..

my view may be squewed.. but in any case.. i think that was a powerful historical moment..

wishing peace on us all.. for israel as well as all of our arab neighbours

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
it's about time

abou al jamejem said...

Sherrii I have my own version of this, check it out:

An Ode to Nasarallah

Nasarallah
They call you a terrorist
But this is the truth

you hide like a rat
because you are a coward

you destroyed my country
becaue you're a dick

you're just a puppet with iran and syria

Sherri said...

Lirun,
What if this war was pre-planned by the United State and Israel?

Would that bother you?

Do you understand that when I make critical comments about Israel,I have the same criticisms of my own country?

Do you understand that I feel guilty for my country's actions that I believe are wrong?

Do you understand that seeing innocent children dying from bombs dropped on them bothers me?

Sherri said...

abou al jamejem,
That's funny. I wasn't really serious about my poem. I'm just tired and I can't sleep and I thought it might get someone's attention. And it made me laugh.

Lirun said...

sherri..

im not attacking your views or your right to hold them..

im just a bit sick of the relentless melodramatic bias..

these children are dying only kms away from me..

lebanese and israeli children mind you..

your portrayel only serves to belittle the tragedy..

the suffering is larger than just one nation.. there are two at the core of this conflict and the entire region hears the echos of the screams..

like doha.. i think conspiracy theories are pointless

peace needs to be multilateral.. you need a broader perspective..

thats my view on your views

now good night and get some sleep sherri frost.. unfortunately i suspect that you may still have reason to continue tomorrow..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
clear vision delivers clear reason

Sherri said...

lirun,

I hope the plan for the deployment of troops to the south is approved. I think that after all of the fighting, the best hopes for peace would be Israel leaving Lebanon.

The last I heard, Bush and Israel representatives were talking like they were against it Lebanon's proposal) and the US was talking like they were still going to try to get their plan through. And I don't know how that can possibly work if Lebanon does not agree to it.

If this war was planned ahead by the US and Israel, what do the parties really want here? Are they wanting the war to spread further?f

Ariya said...

It's a way to get Israel out of Lebanon so Hezbullah can once again take over Southern Lebanon... all under the guise of a "cease fire" that won't do shit.

The Lebanese Army won't fight Hezbullah. They have made that blatantly clear.

Odd how the Lebanese Government made this proposal, considering they haven't done a damn thing ove the past 6 years like they were supposed to. 1559.

Ariya said...

Hassan, those 4 UN observers were killed because Hezbullah used their grounds to launch attacks against Israel. Israel was right to respond. The email from the Canadian even says Hezbullah was firing from the vicinity.

Lirun said...

i hope we leave lebanon too..

i think the only solution will be a compromise whereby we leave but an international force is brought in to operate in conjunction with the lebanese forces..

there needs to be some transparency of events..

lebanon needs to be protected.. from its internal foes.. that trouble it from within and provoke my government to partake in the madness..

ultimately lebanon and israel's shared security can not be dissected..

i have never heard of unilateral peace..

wishing that we all have peace soon

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
there are good people on all sides.. they need to be strengthened..

Shaken said...

Better to send the troops to the Syrian border and seal it off. Starve Hezb'allah and let Israel finish them off. There will never be peace as long as Hezb'allah is still around.

ronen said...

Dear Sherri,
The truth is that Hizbollah militery organisation created by Iran and Syria and back up by them.
There are even an iranian soldiers who joined Hizbollah. You cannot trust them and I don't blame the lebanese prime minister but he is a doll. He cannot control Hizbollah and the only reasonable step which we can eccept at this stage is that we will stay in Lebanon until a real army take place at south Lebanon, and not a lebanese army which is a joke.
We are about to reach an agreemnet which will include disarming Hizbollah from their weapons and rockets. Hizbollah of course doesn't want it and we know why- they want to destroy Israel by the encourage of Iran and Syria.
And Seniora is fully scared from Syria and Iran and therefore he won't disarm Hizbollah because if he do so (which realisticlly he can't) he would be killed.

Dimitry said...

the best hopes for peace would be Israel leaving Lebanon.

How original. Too bad nobody ever thought about trying that one before.

Ami Grossman said...

Sherri,

1. Why Israel didn't try negotiation first?
Because UN is completely impotent. After the 3 soldiers were kidnapped in 2000, the UN had to force Lebanon / Hizbolla to return them , but it did nothing.
Although Israel followed the UN resolution then till the last letter, it didn't get any help from US. Even worse, the UN people actually saw the kidnapping , and did nothing to prevent it. How can we trust UN?
US has no power over HA. And regarding Nasralla, as I explained, he wasn't interested in fair negotiation. If he asked only for the Lebanese people, it would make sense. But when he demanded freeing of 5000 Palestinian terrorists, it was obvious that he wants to humiliate Israel and weaken it. NOT negotiation.

And another thing: Even if negotiation could return the kidnapped, 7 other soldiers were killed. Noone could return them.

2. The war was NOT pre-planned by Israel.
I know that you remember only your victims, but we also have a lot: Men,women and also kids.
War costs a lot of money. People on both sides of the border will pay for it for years. Therefore, saying that the war was planned from economic reasons- this does NOT make sense.

And believe it or not, we are not happy to kill innocent Lebanese kids.
And one more thing:
Not only HA started the war, they didn't know when to stop. Israel bombed Beirut only AFTER HA bombed Haifa. And if they stopped shooting after the first days, many more Lebanesed childern could live today.

Wishing that war is over soon

Ami

ronen said...

moral ground:
I don't know how old are you, but
I've already faced few wars here at the region include first war in Lebanon at the 80th.
The same story repeat itself- terrorist group (today Hizbollah) aim to destroy Istrael and act agressivly by fire rockets into our cities at the north border.
Do you think we can be tollerate with it. I don't think so. The blame is on Iran and Syria who really control Lebanon, and we should defend ourselves.
Get rid of Hizbollah and you'll have quite in Lebanon. Don't you see that Hizbollah as a militery group of terrorist is aiming to destroy Lebanon. I feel pity for you if you don't understand it because as long as Hizbollah will continue his aggression upon Israel
there is no future for Lebanon. If you don't understand that it's your problem not us.
We told before the current operation that enough is enough but Hizbolla ignored our warnings.
How can you explain pectures from setlites who clearly shown Hizbollah rockets fired from civilian areas such as tyre. And how can you explain rockets which Hizbollah hide at houses in villeges? and how can yoo explain kidnapping innocent soldiers who didn't cross the border? And finally how can you explain the fact that most of the population in Lebanon doesn't want Hizbollah being around at all.
If you have good unswers to this and not just swaring you're most welcome to share with me.

Joel said...

My poem to Nasrallah:

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
The IAF killed Sheik Sarumin,
The IAF'll kill you, too.

Well, Shakespeare it ain't . . .

Fares said...

Harming Syria, Dream on
Say no to War.

How US should deal with Iran

Sylvia said...

Do you think the 15,000 Lebanese troops will fight Hizbulla or will they help Hizulla once they are at the southern border? What other reason will the Lebanese national army have to get ready and join the fight? I doubt The Prime Minister has any fight in him, will to fight or a choice.

kufir and proud said...

How does hiding in a hole add up to "standing up..like David n Goliath"??
As far as I remember that story .. David actually DID something, other than just shoot off his mouth.

abou al jamejem said...

you guys check this blog: http://lebanonisfirst.blogspot.com/

Emil , Jerusalem said...

Dear Sylvia 3:56 AM

>Do you think the 15,000 Lebanese troops will fight Hizbulla or will they help Hizulla once they are at the southern border?
- It worth mentioning that Israel doesn"t insist on fighting HA , just somebody has to disarm it. We have no other reason for entering Lebanon except eliminating the threat from our northern border.

>What other reason will the Lebanese national army have to get ready and join the fight?
-It isn't nessesary a need to fight. Look , the Swiss army controls every part of its territory.

>I doubt The Prime Minister has any fight in him, will to fight or a choice.
-Somehow I believe , that mr. Siniora is quite a good man , but it seems that he isn't strong enough to control the situation.

And I wish peace , sala'am and shalom to everybody.