Saturday, August 12, 2006

Inspiring Dread.

When I read analyses like the one you are about to read below, my outlook for Lebanon in the near and long term becomes very bleak. I start to feel that what has transpired over the past month in my country constitutes merely the first shots in a much broader and all-encompassing war.

Hussein Shariatmadari, a top aide to Khamenehi, and director of Iran's main daily newspaper Kayhan (Universe) believes that with the fall of Communism, the task of challenging the "Infidel" West, under US leadership, in setting the global agenda, has devolved to the Islamic Republic and its Khomeinist ideology.

In an editorial bearing the title of "This Is Our War," Shariatmadari made it clear that Hezbollah was fighting not for prisoners, the Shabaa farms or even "Arab causes," whatever they may be at any given time, but for Iran in its broader struggle to prevent the US from creating "an American Middle East."

The consensus in Tehran is that American power is peaking out and that the West as a whole is entering a period of historic decline. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is convinced that it is the turn of rising new powers, brimming with energy and ambition, sustained by strong demographic trends, and ready for endless sacrifice and suffering, to provide humanity with leadership. (Amir Taheri, Asharq al Awsat)

"Provide humanity with leadership???" "Endless sacrifice and suffering???" Wow!

How delusional are these people?!?! What does the Average Ali in Tehran think about this? I know what I think: words like these do not inspire any sense of confidence in me with regards to peace and quiet in Lebanon or the region for the foreseeable future. In fact it does quite the opposite. It inspires dread. God help all of us! For it looks like we're in for a hell of ride! Literally.


root cause said...

i pray that this is just typical fanatic iran rhetoric. if not this could easily turn into WWIII very quickly. and if that happens, i'm sure tel aviv will drop a nuke on tehran, if the US doesn't beat them to it. anyway you slice it, these comments from the insane khamenehi do not help the situation at all. i wonder if this statement will influence nasrallah since he already kinda agreed to the resolution.

Chris from lebanon said...

I say we already in WWIII. It is fought differently but we most definitely in it.

As for this kind of fanatic claim....Are you realy surprised?

The west will deal with Iran in time.

I still beleive thet Ali from the street wants peace as much as we do.

Omer (israeli) said...

An Israeli helicopter got hit by HA. The IDF confirmed.

doron said...

it was said from the begining that this war was started by orders from iran. in about two weeks the UN security council is schedualed to talk about iran nuke plans. sanctions are planned. iran wants to avoid it. iran wants the US and the US and France busy with lebanon and israel. iran wants to negotiate being a calming force in lebanon in return for uranuim. but israel and the US knows it, and europe was reminded about the danger of islamic extremes just this week.

yuval from tlv said...

aren't you a little late to see that?

what did you think? the Iranian gov' is after human right?
democracy? freedome of people?

it's after fundemantalistic Islamic domination - first in the middle east, and second to get to as many people as it can in the world..

i personaly believe that after the Iranian gov' will be knocked out, and a different (not necesserly democratic ) government will take control over Iran and lead this nation to a reasonable course.

now just think what would happen if Iran get's a nuclear weapon..

surely they'll not be afraid to use it..
my guess is, that they'll arm terror groups like HB and Hamas with a deadly weapon, probably unconventional missiles, for example cimical weapon or biological weapon.. (they already did it in Syria), then they won't be affraid to get into a massive conflict with Israel..

this will truely be the horror time of the middle east..

therefor i put my hope the international community will do anything in it's power to stop them..

but i only see the US taking a real action against them, befor they'll trule put their filthy hands on a nuclear weapon..

surely no body needs a reminder what would happen is Israel will be attacked by an unconventinal weapon..

and it's long time said by the Iranian gov' that they plan to destroy israel..

the middle east is at the stake now..

it can go forwared to peace and thrive, or it can go backwadrs into a third world war, which surely this time kill millions of people..

shittyzionz said...

Guys guys, I know an Iranian lad,he's a son of a very important man from the Iranian government – he asked me to keep the name & position secret- anyways, first of all, I asked him why do they support HA, do they love us as they claim or do they have a score to settle with America via Israel, why are they working on dangerous things like nuclear weapons, I actually asked him loads of questions but that’s as far as I can remember. However, the answer did really shock me! Read this,
"If you have ever read the Nostradamus –spelling- prophecies, you will see that the end of the USA will be through some kind of missiles that can be fired from here ME to Europe & USA. "The chosen one" that is going to fire them is called Imam Mahdi – he's the 12th imam of Shiaa Muslims- his army will be the Muslims & Christians – as the Shiaa believe that the Christ will collaborate with Imam Mahdi- so the followers of the two religions are the ones who are going to fight. Iran is trying to strengthen any religious movement that seek the end of the "American Imperialism" & needless to say the state of Israel as well. That's what is going to be the WWIII. According to him, that's going to be the "New World" The war will take place in the Arabian (Persian) gulf & the sea colour will turn from blue to red because of the blood; that blood will belong to westerns –according to nostradamus himself- " That really freaked me out, just the thought of it, God, I don’t think I want to live to see that happen, I hate wars, but I definitely want to see the end of Israel.


Omer (israeli) said...

"but I definitely want to see the end of Israel". good luck. you said you hate wars?
Gee, must be a nice peacful guy. Dont you get it by now? That sentiment produced many wars.

About the cease fire:

root cause said...

we will soon see exactly how much influence iran has on nasrallah. he has already televised his "agreement" to abide by the UN resolution. so to go back on that now, it would be obvious to all that iran is indeed his puppet master, and therefore weaken his political standing in lebanon.

chris from lebanon,

i agree that the west will be forced to deal with the crazy regime in tehran very soon. we simply can't afford to let this maniac dictate what happens in the ME and the rest of the world. i just hope that the iranian people that i know are not behind his threats can rise up and overthrow these lunatic radicals.

praying for peace...more than ever

root cause said...


you have no place here! we ALL have the right to exist and to pursue happiness for us and our children. keep believing nostradamus...good luck with all that! we control our own destiny, NOT some clown who did way too many drugs hundreds of years ago.

praying for peace

Μαύρος Γάτος said...

How reliable is Amir Taheri? If I get the picture correctly he is an Iranian ex-patriate expectedly bitter towards Tehran. How reliable is Asharq Al-Awsat? And how seriously do you think Iran can threaten the West? Like Saddam who was yelling that he would bring the Apocalypse and destroy the West only to be defeated in a matterof days?

Let's not succumb to... what was his name/ That minister of Saddam, the funny one with the glasses? Let's not succumb to conspiracy theories. UIran is not an angel but beleive me, they cannot possibly cause a threat (other than verbal ) to the west.

Courage Lebanese friends, seems like the end of *this* war is near. For the next one, I have no clue....

Μαύρος Γάτος said...

"Ulran" is fot Tehran, of course

shittyzionz said...

The real threat to this region comes from the Nazis of Israel, not Iran!! Iran at least doesnt hate us, it hates you & the USA!
For me its a simple:
the enemy of my enemy is my friend!!

Yeh I hate wars, but ever since your country was formed, the wars didnt leave the ME, I just wonder why :o !! One more war thatcan lead to the end of your horribly evil country is more than welcome tome!!

One more thing,just to remind everyone, the ones that are destructing my country is Israel!! period!

root cause said...


your blind rage is understandable...but FAR from productive!! if you truley love your country you must see the big picture. so every ME conflict is the fault of isreal?!?!?! cmon! the iraq/iran war...was that israel's fault?...that killed more arabs then all the israeli conflicts combined!! but just because thats muslims killing muslims it doesnt count??? please try to have some rational thought. i understand that emotions run very high right now, i am very sorry for your suffering, but the world has enough hate!! please don't spread any more.

praying for peace.

shittyzionz said...


That war was before I was born.. but from what I read & heard, the arabs leaders & the USA helped saddam during that time.. the USA in particular supplied him with chemical weapons! he was americas best friend just becoz he was fighting their enemy!! see I'm a good student of the USA, I'll support Iran since they are your enemy, just hope that you lot can fight eachother away from us, and whats more, i just hope they can kick your filthy ass!!


Andrey said...

the writings of nostradamus are poems, witch could be understood only after the things have already happened. many people tried to predict what is going to happen according to his writings, but the world is constantly unpredictably changes. so far the christians are with jews against moslems, so maybe it will all be the other way around, and by the way ehud olmert is the 12-th prime minister of Israel (but soon there will be 13-th). Like ahmadinijad said - the one who starts the fire, may be consumed by it!

* Claudia said...

do you want a middle east on American terms? Do you belive non of the arab countries can deal with developenment on their own?

Andrey said...

we want to live like in europe, free borders, while arabs recognize that we (jews) are the closest nation to them, and stop demonizing us. we want 2 states, palestine and israel in 1949 borders. we want not to have a need in US - we want to be allys of our neighbours.

Omer (israeli) said...

"Yeh I hate wars, but ever since your country was formed, the wars didnt leave the ME, I just wonder why "

Now you blame us also for the wars your kind started? You think we opened every war?

shiityzion, These has been the case in 48. The arab world didn't recognize Israel right to exist.
Yah, yah you can call it crime, you can yell "nakba" but that won't help. How are we suppose to do peace with ppl that want us exterminated? ever thougt of that?

Clever man ahminjad, hey? Nice plan for the ME, don't you think?
To bad you can't look me in the eye and say that.

The problem with the PL's will be resolved eventually. But you want a spill all out war. I can tell you we don't expect any mercy from your troops. You have made your intesions clear(officaly Hamas and Iran) - kill all israeli's, and all jews in general.
Good thing, we are the "obstacle" for peace in the ME.

root cause said...


believe me, i am all for peace, but when you spew that hatred, my patriotic juices boil. do you think for one second iran can harn the USA??...we would completely destroy them many times over!! my filthy ass....paaaaleeeze you know nothing about the USA. we are the MOST diverse county in the world, and we have only been around for 230 years....seams to me we must be doing something right...

i do wish peace for lebanon, but your views are suicidal

Yael K said...

Ummm could we maybe raise our hands and say dude we wanna get off. Anyone got a nice crowbar we could stick in the gears? This is one ride that none of us (with the ability to rub two braincells together) want to take. G-d help us all, indeed.

root cause said...

i wish we could yael k....we owe it (if not for ourselves) our children. every human being on this planet should be able to to be free and be able to raise their kids in peace!!

praying this madness will end NOW!!!

Omer (israeli) said...

As Golda Meir said:

"Our enemies want us dead, we wish to survive. that does not leave
much room for negotiation."

Shmulik said...


The real irony is that if we (Israel) were real "nazis" as you describe it, you wouldn't be here talking (or breathing for that matter). I am not trying to threaten you, I just want you to realize how your viewpoint is a self-contradiction.

root cause said...

very true shmulik

still praying for peace

Andrew Baker said...

As a westerner I do believe that the west is responsible for the loss of faith in its words deeds and values.

By denigrating international law, by sidelining the process of involvment of regional stakeholders and undermining the involvment of the UN.

In one of the English newspapers there was the headline "Mass murder on an unimaginable scale planned". Instead of the intended reference to the security alerts in the UK I immediatly thought this must be reference to Blair. Surprise surprise. This is indeed the looking glass world we are now inhabiting.

This is I hope not a pointless rant but relevant to this thread. Yes the political and military manipulation of innocents is wrong by any side. However the disregard of the lives of innocents in the middle east under the justification of spurious ideals and objectives by western powers has created the atmostphere of confrontation and a genuine mistrust of western intentions.

root cause said... some aspects i agree, however, radical islam has been around for centuries, there is NO negotiation with that mind set regardless of any "policy"...when an entity is hell-bent on desctruction of another will rational negotiations help?

plz may we have peace!!!

Andrew Baker said...

The development of so called radical Islam has arisen because it is a shadow side of what the west has created. An outside force pressing in builds unlikely coalitions.

The mistakes we have made is to change another without changing ourselves. This we have neglected to do.

root cause said...

huh??? if i am not mistaken, we have gone to great lengths to accomodate all religions/beliefs...and for that matter non-beliefs in this country..plz include examples in your discussion. i don't see radical christians, jews, buddists, athiests, or any other religion opther that islam blowing themselves up to kill "infedels" in the name of God. i am NOPT racist, this is a simple fact.

still praying for peace

Yohay Elam said...

I always think that the current war is not really controlled by the fighting sides: Israel and Hizbullah, but rather between the US and Iran, each pushing their ally to war.
It's sad for the people of Israel and Lebanon.

Andrew Baker said...

Am I right in guessing that you are from the USA? WE simply have to recognise that there is a justified cogent point of view that the western powers, USA and UK in particular, have meddled in the affairs of the middle east in pursuance of self interest at the risk of peace and the lives of innocents. Futhermore that this has been done under the guise of altruism and idealism.
If there was a will within the US from a president who is not looking at the profile of his voters/supporters, Isreal would have been forced to make meaningful negotiations.
Hamas and Hesbollah have arrisen as a result of stalling and bad faith. Ironically this is apparently what Israel wants in order to justify its intransigence. It is clear that it has systematically destroyed moderate Arab voices in the occupied teritories.

Its about taking responsibility. We need to address our negative contributions and understand that the view of ourselves held by others may be closer to the truth than we have fooled ourselves into thinking.

root cause said...


obviously i an from the USA. cognent?? no...sorry...i don't buy into that. there are very real success stories in the ME because of our "meddling". it is the the ppl that refuse to progress with the rest of the worl that we have a problem with. do you honestly believe that women in the fundamental islam countries enjoy this right?...if you want to fight for all human rights...start there!!

still praying for peace

root cause said...

i apologize for my last post....VERY off topic

1earth said...

The only guaranteed loser from this ceasefire is the Lebanese government and people.

The ceasefire does nothing to disarm or moderate Hezbollah. When Hezbollah breaks the ceasefire by arms smuggling or rocket attacks the Israeli military will be obligated to respond. We will see a rerun of this war. And next time nobody can expect Israel to use restraint in fighting Hezbollah. Lebanon will go through a lot more pain and suffering to rid it of the Hezbollah cancer.

Andrew Baker said...

Root Cause - did you mean as I did 'Cogent'.

Expanding the argument as a critique of the faults of Islam will do nothing to help peace in the region, in its current dilemma, and the world as a whole.

You make changes for the good when you include and empower. Pardon me for saying this but the USA has not got a good track record in its involvment in the affairs of others. One has only to look at Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador, Argentinia and Cuba to realise the shadows of the imperialist intentions of the states. But lets not be partisan about this, The UK is just as bad accept with our diminishing role in the world we now have to suck up to the USA to get a wiff of power.

root cause said...

i'm very sorry..but how exactly would you like to empower.....oh lets say....iran....syria....north korea....hezzballah.....osama....cmon man....i understand some policies dont make sence, but blame pretty much the vast amount of evil in this world right now on the US and UK!!!

1earth said...

Pardon me for saying this but the USA has not got a good track record in its involvment in the affairs of others. One has only to look at Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador, Argentinia and Cuba to realise the shadows of the imperialist intentions of the states.

Or we could take off your self imposed blindfold and look at Japan, Germany, France, the Low Countries, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, the former Confederate States all the millions that get to eat in Africa after they were left starving by the fall of European colonialism, etc. God damn the USA has done a lot of good but you refuse to see whatever doesn't suit your anti-American agenda.

3li- said...


So now the truth lies in what Amir Taheri thinks? Who the heck is he anyways?

Do you know him? Have his analysis and predictions in the past come to bear fruit? Have you followed his track record?

This is a lousy post-if you want to start prescribing to conspiracy theories and the half-baked analysis of begrudged pundits then we might as well start soliciting horoscopes for the next phase of events in our region.

What if you tell us about the "New Mideast" as Secretary Rice told us. What does that mean? Here you have it from the horse's mouth-no need for extrapolating theroies out of thin air.

1earth said...

Andrew Baker is just trying to cover up the fact that the UK has left a such a huge mess in the world after hundreds of years of imperial rule by England. He blames America for everything so England doesn't look like such an evil former world power reduced to an American dependency.

Andrew Baker said...

Read my post and stop falling into your patriotic denial. Both the UK and the USA have a lot to learn and should take more responsibility. The fact that you have just read my comments as applying solely at USA shows defensive reflexes not balanced thinking.

root cause said...

plz answer my questions....i would seriosly like to know how you would address the current conflicts with iran...north korea....syria....i would like to know how u would handle them? plz instead of insults

Andrew Baker said...

By creating regional alliances and restoring talking and negotiating as tools of foriegn policy.

The real question however is how did Iran come into its current political identity in the first place?

Syria needs to have its own influence and identity reaffirmed on the world stage. Syria is at a point when it is under severe internal pressure for change. It is currently avoiding this when it has the USA to hate.

North Korea? Why was this country not the focus of military action more than Iraq? It has nuclear capacity and is a maverick in foriegn affairs. The answer yet again lies in USA foriegn policy. Play the long game - be believable to others in respect of your foriegn policy and importantly develop a more intelectually coherent attitude to China who are N. Korea's main sponsors. Realise also that N. Korea has enormous economic problems which it covers up and needs desperatly to trade with the rest of the world. S. Korea has now developed a real influence with the north and both countries have political and economical agreements.

Deal with this seriously plse.

Andrew Baker said...

In dear old UK time it is very late.
May I bid you a very good day or night and may we all reach out to friendship and trust. PLse feel free to add comments on my site at

Bye for now

dougjnn said...

shittyzionz /Natalie said---

the USA in particular supplied him with chemical weapons!

This is a BS leftist originated lmanufactured charge that’s been rattling around without demonstration since the run up to Iraq War I. As Mark Twain said, “a lie gets around the world before the truth can get it’s boots on”. Saddam bought some chemicals that could be combined with other things for that purpose perhaps but no chemical weapons from US corporations and nothing in the way of chemical weapons which requires government approval, as all significant weapons sales do. Most chemicals don’t. I don’t even think it’s ever been shown that US origin chemicals were even a component of what he dropped on the Kurds, only that maybe they could have been. His main chemicals supplier was the EU especially Germany. There was no government approval of supplying him with what he needed to make chemical weapons (unless maybe if you’re talking about non lethal stuff like tear gas); he simply bought stuff that wasn’t on any banned list. Were there loopholes in the regs there shouldn’t have been? Very possibly. But our regs on foreign sales of components that can be used in weapons are much tighter than the EU’s. His main weapons supplier by far was the Soviets. Of course US and international lefties, and now Jihadis and other Arabs, want nothing better than to blame the US for nearly everything. (Our power isn’t nearly as super as people, and yes sometimes our own government, like to think. It’s an illusion congenial to many, whether as a big target to oppose or pin responsibility upon, or a proud button to wear.)

he was americas best friend just becoz he was fighting their enemy!!

First of all nations throughout history have helped other ones they weren’t otherwise very friendly with for exactly that reason. It’s normal. To behave otherwise is very unusual and probably foolhardy, at least if the mutual enemy is of any real concern to your country. Or don’t you actually know any history?

Saddam was never a close or really even any kind of ally of the US. We did help him some (though it’s greatly exaggerated and he mostly paid cash, and much more of that to the Soviets and EU) in that war because we didn’t want him to lose badly to Iran. We also didn’t want to see him overrun Iran. Stalemate was more what we wanted and it was a smart strategy, and what happened – though it took way longer than anyone expected and killed an awful lot of Iranian volunteer soldiers for Allah in particular. Which I’ll confess wasn’t just the most tragic thing in the world to Americans at the time. It was moderate realpolitic par excellance. Vastly smarter than this neo-con Iraq war II fiasco which will probably end with Iran having an Iraqi puppet state at least in the southern Shi’a area where most of the oil is. That won’t be good for any Arab liberals, secularists or Sunnis of any stripe. Including the ones in Lebanon.

One thing I try to do is not demonize my enemies. Doesn’t mean I like them. It means I try to understand them, and learn the facts about them as opposed to the talking points against them. And no, I don’t really demonize Hezbollah. Though I think that kind of Islamism is a real foe of modernity and liberality in the Middle East and an enormous and bloody irritant to the West. I think I have some idea of why they’re supported by the Shi’a in Lebanon and some of their real as opposed to cartoon motivations.

Bush of course is a pig headed fool. While by no means a wiz he isn’t as dumb as many people think (about the same IQ as Kerry for example, who presents himself very differently), but he’s not only anti-intellectual (not always so bad in a politician), he’s also unwise and pig headed – which is very bad indeed. He bought the neo-con bs about the fairly rapidly transformative power of democracy throughout the Middle East and about how every culture is as eager and ready for it as every other one, and he isn’t letting go. The idiot.

We’ll all be lucky if democracy survives in Lebanon. I’m hoping.

chitta said...

Which country would destroy countries in a war (Japan, Germany)
and then thrust constitutions on them and then help them build up
so that they are peaceful and world powers?

Which country will go to a place like Veitanm (no oil or any other resources) and sacrifice
tens of thousands of its sons to protect the world from the evils of communism? (If you
are not sure of the evils of communism, just read about the number of people
killed by Stalin, Lenin and Mao, etc.)

One cam compare North and South Korea; one supported by one country and the other
by many communist countries and then figure out which country's influence made
South Korea a prosperous nation and North Korea a basket case.

Sure, this country has made mistakes. Many mistakes!
Often these mistakes become clear in hindsight
and other times they appear as mistakes but the alternative (a communist
government or a dictator) would have been far far worse.

One can of course come up with examples where the side this country supported
did bad things (e.g. early support of mujaheddins in Afghanisthan against Communist
Soviet Union), but one needs to think of the other side and in most cases
the other side was a much bigger danger to the world at that point of time.

One should be proud of UK, especially Tony Blair's UK,
that after its brutal imperial past it came to senses and is
now on the right side of the history.

I am proud to immigrate to this country (USA) and salute its desire and willingness
to sacrifice its sons and daughters to make the world a better place in the long term.
Like many others who moved to this country, it took a long time for me
to get rid of my preconceived notions and beliefes created by reading years
of anti-US news. But after thinking about it a lot and discovering the
number of soldiers sacrificed in wars in countries like Vietnam and Korea
(where there is no oil or such things that this country could be accused of eying for)
I am no longer delusional. I hope more people in Iraq will soon realize that
and instead of killing each other form a stable democracy and then quickly ask
this country and UK to leave, which they both would be very happy to do.

best regards

dougjnn said...


Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador, Argentinia and Cuba to realise the shadows of the imperialist intentions of the states.

None of that was motivated by imperialism It was motivated by anti-communism and succeed in all but one of them. Of course the communist and sympathizing left and far left love to claim imperialism.

Empire is expensive especially these days. Fairly free trade in a settled, peaceful world is a much better way to make bucks. It’s much better if you can get someone else to do it for you, as long as they aren’t too preditatory and in fact allow other people to free trade as well. America’s fasted growth was in the 19th century when except for the civil war it didn’t have to spend much at all on it’s military and Britain ruled the waves, but let us and everyone else trade on them fairly freely. America’s huge military (in equipment if not so much in men) is mostly useful to protect world trade and keep conflicts deterred or dampened down in most of the more (economically) important places most of the time – which is as economically useful to the whole open trading world (including not only the EU, Japan, China, Asian Tigers, and yes the oil exporting cos and Latin cos) as it is to the US. What US governments get more than others and to some extend the American population too, is the ego boost of being the really big player. But it also involves lots of headaches.

I’ll tell you something else. It’s also getting too expensive to keep playing an expanding role. Kennedy’s (not the Senator and not related) book about imperial overstretch and then decline of other world powers such as Spain and Britain, because essentially their economies could no longer keep up with the increasing costs of their foreign military commitments, was about 15 years early. It came out in 1989 and by the late 1990’s it was held up for some considerable ridicule famously in a Financial Times article, considering the American tech and internet based boom at the time and our performance in Iraq I and Kosovo. But it’s sure seeming true now.

dougjnn said...

Andrew Baker said...

If there was a will within the US from a president who is not looking at the profile of his voters/supporters, Isreal would have been forced to make meaningful negotiations.
Hamas and Hesbollah have arrisen as a result of stalling and bad faith.

There’s some considerable truth in that. The Israelis exasperate the hell out of me. So does Bush II, who is virtually never willing to push them where they don’t want to go, unlike his father.

But the Palestinians and many of their supporters are at least equally exasperating. The Israelis finally did negotiate seriously at the end of the 1990s and the end of the Oslo process, culminating in a serious offer in Taba at the very end of both Clinton’s and Barack’s tenure. Arafat turned it down and made no counter offer, but instead began the second intifada. It wasn’t until the beginning of the 1990’s at Oslo that Arafat and the PLO were willing to talk on the basis of anything other than at a minimum the 1947 borders proposed by the UN which the whole Arab world rejected and then invaded Israel and lost badly, resulting in the pre 1967 borders that most of the world has long felt is legitimate, and to their own people usually the true goal was the elimination of Israel entirely. That’s not a talking point, it’s true.

After the Oslo talks collapsed with Arafat’s rejection and intifada and suicide bombings it hasn’t been a pretty picture and there hasn’t been a whole lot of hope on either side. Then the fence idea was hatched.

As for Hezbollah, it’s easy enough and legitmate enough to see how they arose as a Shi’a resistance force as Israel continued to militarily occupy S. Lebanon (but without settlements), as a “buffer zone”, initially against the PLO, and then others. Yes Israel should have left Lebanon far earlier than 2000. But after she did, why did Hezbollah persist on rocket attacks and cross border raids, on and off for six years, while building up not only a strong defense capability against ground invasion, but also an enormous rocket arsenal, all supplied by Iran?

R said...


"But after she did, why did Hezbollah persist on rocket attacks and cross border raids, on and off for six years, while building up not only a strong defense capability against ground invasion, but also an enormous rocket arsenal, all supplied by Iran?"

Because they are aligned with Iran and Syria, and serve the intersection of the latter two's interests. Add to that, the Syrians controlled lebanon completely until 2005, and you have your answer.

Now it is up to us as Lebanese, to make sure that the Syrian era is over, the era of being pawns, tools, and bargaining chips is over, and to move on once and for all. The Syrians and Iranians aren't gonna like it, and neither will HA, but we have to do it anyway...

Chas said...

As always my first hope is for an end to this madness and for peace.

I believe that the Iranian analysis is, from their perspective, in fact largely correct.
I am not anti-american (I feel personally endebted to the previous US President for his work in bringing peace to my homeland)or anti-Israeli but I am anti the militaristic and aggressive policies of the current administrations of both countries. I think that the Neo-con world view on which the actions the US are based is dangerously warped.

The Iranians, based on their current policies, know that a confrontation with the US is coming. They need, as a matter of national survival, to know if they could withstand an American attack ... and Hezbollah fighting Israel in Lebanon provided them with a perfect model. And the US, for its part wants to know exactly the same thing, which is why they delayed diplomatic efforts and encouraged Israel to broaden and deepen their attack.
Obviously there were other considerations at play.
Israel is a genuine ally of the US, but no other administration would have given them so much leeway, let alone egged them on. (side issue - but I think this reaction actually wrong-footed the Israelis, who expected the US to give them an "out" a lot sooner)
Iran may or may not have brotherly feelings towards Hezbollah, but at any rate would shed no tears over the deaths of Israelis or the collapse of a secular democratic govt in Lebanon.
For the Americans, the results are disturbing, for the Iranians they are encouraging, for the Israeli govt the results are terrible, I don't recall Israel emerging from a war without a clear and unequivocal victory. For the Israeli people it might not, in the end be such a bad thing. A rethink of their policy of relying on the military to solve essentially political problems is long overdue and would have long term benfits.
Hezbollah has raised its status and credibility throughout the Islamic world .. the effect on its position within Lebanon remains to be seen.
The human and economic cost to the only unwilling participant in these wargames, Lebanon, is an evident and shaming tragedy. Personally, Raja, i believe the democratic government will survive - I think internationally it has gained in status and respect and although it has a great deal of work to do it may have more friends than it realizes.



The Prophet said...

Shittyzionz & Andrew,
It seems that the Lebanese people have forgotten their history. Lebanon has been a country of violence beginning with the civil war in 1958. In the fighting between 1975 and 1976, an estimated 40,000 Lebanese were killed by infighting. For 65 years you have either ignore your problems (such as control of Palestinian refugees, allowing PLO fighters to use your country, allowing Syrian meddling, allowing Hezbollah fighters to use your country, etc.) or use violence to settle your differences. What were you thinking Israel would do when you allowed Hezbollah to operate out of your territory? You are being used by Syria and Iran. If you don’t have the courage to stand up for your country, you will continue to be used by them and any other radical Muslim entity. You could have had the help of many of the countries of the West and Europe had you only asked. You will continue to experience violence until you abandon violence as a way to settle your differences and insist that organizations that use violence leave your county. We pray that God will make his presence known and bring peace to your country.

As for Iran, they are using everyone to further their own agenda and that is to dominate and control the Middle East and its oil. When they can do that, they think they can influence and control the world. The Nazis did not die with Germany, thousands disappeared after the war and many went to the Middle East and South America. They even had influence on Saddam Hussein. Iran is as radical as Nazis Germany and already has begun to be a world threat. The other peaceful Middle East countries are at risk from Iran as much as the West and Israel. They better wake up to that or they will be lost.

Pasdutout said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pasdutout said...

rootcause, Raja,

I'm afraid The Iranians have a point: The West IS declining: Europe's Peak was in 1919 (when, among other things, the middle east was divided into many countries incl. Lebanon, causing many of today's problems in the region). The Rise of Asia, especially China and India, is further proof of this.

U.S. has peaked in the 1990's, and is there now, although, as Iraq shows, that has limitations too.

It remains to be seen whether the west will meet the current challenge - although recent policies incl. the implicit support of Israel's Lebanon offensive, and the campaign to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, shows that many western leaders are aware of the dangers.
Personally, I believe Mr. Ahmadinejad means what he says and THAT will leave the entire middle east in ruins that will make Present day Lebanon look tame. It's happened before (anyone remember the wars between Rome and the Parthian empire? or the fate of the Sassanid empire?)

Pasdutout said...

It is so distressing to read some of the opinions in this forum: After all that's happened in the last 80 years: we still have people clinging to the notion that "Death to Israel" is the solution to all their problems.

Won't this region EVER have peace?

Pasdutout said...

a question to all Israelis in this forum:

Do you think Israel is better or worse off, when compared with 1973: Then, as now, The Military operations were halted before complete victory could be achieved.

Pasdutout said...

sorry Chas,

I missed your post: Your analysis of Iranian and U.S. motivations is very well put, and, IMO, correct.


dougjnn said...

Chas said—

for the Israeli govt the results are terrible, I don't recall Israel emerging from a war without a clear and unequivocal victory. For the Israeli people it might not, in the end be such a bad thing. A rethink of their policy of relying on the military to solve essentially political problems is long overdue and would have long term benefits.

Very wise. I think you’re right. Humility and reasonableness usually comes from a defeat that you are able to recover from. Of course some people are born with more inclination this way than others. There is of course also defeatism, passivity, cravenness and the like but none of that seems too applicable to the Israeli public at the moment. Somewhat to Palestinians esp. in the West Bank, and not a new phenomenon. Part of how Israel gets away with things day to day, mostly.

Hezbollah has raised its status and credibility throughout the Islamic world .... the effect on its position within Lebanon remains to be seen.

The former is a kind of movie star fame based on fantasy and bringing no real power, the later is far more important, and will end up greatly affecting the former.

I mean it’s basically a self delusion and fantasy that Hezbollah defeated the Israelis. They avoid being routed. Mostly because of good training and well dug in positions and Israeli underestimation of them and overestimation of itself, and Israeli aversion to casualties, and as well a going in understanding that the cost effective way to do this war was by air power collective punishment / deterrence, rather than an extremely costly effort to kill most Hezbollah and destroy most of their rockets (this later they had hopes of once things spiraled forward, but it didn’t pan out). Once the passions of war were unleashed in the currently hyper arrogant Israeli climate, the clamor for crushing Hez and it’s rockets on the ground proved to Olmert and gang irresistable. Which may lead them to the scaffold, politically. Should have ending this sometime in the second week.

However, it’s the best results Muslims /Arabs have had, well forever, Arabs and others think. So they spin fantasy tales about the victory.

Well actually in both 1973 and 2000 Israel wasn’t looking so good either, though people forget about that, because the former was a long time ago and the later didn’t get much media coverage, at least in the West. Israel almost lost catastrophically in 1973, but ended up turning things around decisively in what was looking like another catastrophic loss for the Arabs, until the Soviets loudly rattled sabers which the Americans took to be treat of WWIII. So America raised it’s (still overwhelmingly superior but goodbye American big cities anyway) nuclear forces to DefCon III -- which is scary. That led the Soviets to back down, but the Americans to also, meaning we told the Israelis to stop or never get another bullet from us for the rest of your lives and meanwhile we may all be cinders. Everyone was pretty rattled.

2000 was an initially voluntary and phased withdrawal from Lebanon (due to the drip drip of casualties in an increasingly pointless seeming occupation, in the eyes of a left leaning –Barak- Israeli government), but then precipitously accelerated under Hezbollah attack. For Israel why have more of your soldiers killed just to stick to your schedule? For Hezbollah and Lebanon and Arabs, what a glorious forcing of the Israelis to flee Lebanon. This is one of Hezbollah’s proudest tales.

Anyway, what happens in Lebanon is key. Once blood cools a little, it’s going to seem obvious to most Lebanese that while Hezbollah may have fought in their name and been emotionally validating while the bombardment was going on, Hezbollah hardly served as a deterrent effect and in fact the whole mess wouldn’t have happened without Hezbollah accumulating and firing of rockets, and cross border soldier kidnapping.

I hope so. It’s the road to peace between Israel and Lebanon, and to continuing and improving democracy in Lebanon, as opposed to a Hezbollah military takeover and theocratic rule, or another ruinous civil war to prevent that.

sam of chayyah said...


i am fellow Lebanese, I understand your and i live it till now. Still, we should make space for peace here. Look around you, don't you smell death everywhere?, don't you feel that gun powder is normal to you now? we breath it with air. All these atrocities around you is because of war. Many of the Israeli guys like omer are with peace. Remember? : we hate Isarel because we think it is not a peaceful nation,still, if Israelis ,like the most of the guys who are posting their comments here, are with peace, we are scoring for the right future step::: PEACE::: isn't this what we are always looking for in Lebanon. Believe me, we need to start somewhere, may be "blogging" is a humble step but hey its still a step for peace and we shouldn't waste it. I love Lebanon more that you think and I love southern Lebanon more than you think, remember that I live in Chayyah and I am from the south.

Muxecoid said...

Quote from samsonblinded, ultrarightist blog. Interesting scenario.

The bleak future of Lebanese statehood
August 10th, 2006

The missile attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah demonstrate that depth of defense is not an outdated concept. Israel is pathetically small, and lacks the strategic depth. Now is a reasonable time to enlarge the country.

All countries respond to border conflicts with annexation; the US annexed a third of Mexico after the cross-border incursions. Russia scorched an island with napalm to counter the Chinese claims. The border skirmishes are so acceptable a reason for annexation that the Germans specifically staged such skirmish to occupy Poland.

Israel must create a buffer zone in South Lebanon. North Lebanon could go to Greater Syria, and a Christian buffer state be established in between. Another non-Muslim state in the Middle East will draw much of the hatred now centered on Israel. Lebanon is an artificial state created by colonial powers. It will intermittently switch from religious wars to fragile governments and back, a permanent source of civil strife and unrest at Israeli border.

Jordan is Jewish land by the power standards, and internationally apportioned to Israel in the original Balfour declaration. Only later did the British cut Iraq from Iran and Jordan from Israel to placate the friendly tribal chiefs. Syria long has plans on Jordan, and Israel can concede part of Jordan along with all the Palestinian population to Syria. France and Britain shaped Lebanon and Jordan; Israel can reshape them.

The world would not care a bit about the annexation as long as Israel does it quickly and cleanly, without major destabilization. It was ok with America that Arabs annihilate Israel in 1948 and 1967, and the US would not object to Israel annexing Jordan. The US rebuffed Sadat’s peace offers before 1973 when Israel was perceived as controlling the military situation. America, the arbiter, needs minor instability, but will not tolerate large conflicts.

The situation is ripe. A million plus refugees in Lebanon depopulated the South, making it easier to relocate its other inhabitants to North Lebanon. Jordan is profoundly anti-American. Iraq lacks a decent government, and has no choice but to accept the relocated Palestinians. Syria will forget the Golan in return for the chunks of Lebanon and Jordan. Moreover, Syria will have to support the Israeli acquisitions in those countries in order to preserve its own territorial acquisitions there. Other Arab countries will gladly get rid of Lebanon which otherwise succumbs to the Shiite influence. As Nike used to say, just do it.

barroon said...

1 month and im reading isrealies opinon and more isrealies opinon here. to extend that i decided not to participate in argument anymore and let isrealies debate eachother here :)
BUT what is funny is isreal wants PEACE but want to nuclear iran and rest of ME if nessessery " IF NEEDED" (hahaha i wonder what in the SAFE HANDS means !).

root cause said...
i pray that this is just typical fanatic iran rhetoric. if not this could easily turn into WWIII very quickly. and if that happens, i'm sure tel aviv will drop a nuke on tehran

and Rest of ME want PEACE with no isreal around them.
peace will NEVER EVER EVER happen between Isreal and ME. ilusional peace maybe..but PEACE as other countries in other part of world has it NO.

this morning i was thinking this war gave Isreal enemies a prety good idea how to fight thier wars with Isreal in future. and maybe this is begining of the end for isreal :)
hahah.. come on.. jump on me and start to bit each word i wrote hehehe

dunes said...

israel is much better then 1973 : first of all
we are not the underdog
we are not at an exsitence war alltough we may feel like that

PS : andrew baker and root cause :
im an israeli who have supported widtdrawl from gaza and lebanon but dont get it wrong
israel's only mistake in the middle east is that we have not continued to pound our enemies untill they were completley beaten.
what you fail to understand is that islam or foundementel islam dont want peace or quiet it wants to be the only relegion on the face of the planet. so dont try to put the blame on the U.S or U.K or else your just self haters.
and thats not a trade you want to have .

oh and to raja or doha or whatever...... good murning sunshine where have you been, i hate to say it but "I TOLD YOU SO "

Lirun said...

sounding a bit like lord of the rings

Avrum. said...


Now perhaps you have a better idea what we Israelis are up against. Lebanon has already been taken over by Iran, and we are struggling against the same fate. Our war has not been pretty, but in fact it could be much worse.

barroon said...


btw " hosien shariatmadari" is considered in iran an extremist. always voice of extremist are louder than moderate ppl.
the political party in iran which is in power now will not last. " shariatmadari " and his newspaper are not popular in iran, but i guess non of these matters as long as ppl hear what they wana hear. beside every where in world extremist are reaching the power

eyal said...

Because of ppl like u we will never have peace in the ME.
If you think that this was a real war you must be kidding.... It was a little part of the IDF against guerilla terrorists group which where hiding behind the Lebanese ppl.
what u see here regarding the Israelis arguments here is a real and strong democracy which allow each person to say his own opinion (I guess you do not have this luck).
And believe me we want peace but when we hear what HB Iran and Syria whishes for us we must get ready.
And one last thing.... go around Lebanon, look around.... go and count how many HB terrorists are dead... go and give a napkin to your leaders which are crying
and then tell me if you really find the way to beat us.
It is so funny that the first time that Arabs which are fighting against Israel and where saved by the UN are talking like they found the way to win Israel.
do not forget....we used a very little amount of force and it was a guerrilla war, when the day will come (AND I REALLY HOPE IT WONT) you will be bagging to have peace with us and I promise you that whenever you will really mean it you will have peace and if no you will die with us......

barroon said...


i dont think this was a real war..but i think it has real lessons

barroon said...


what HB -iran-Syria wishes for u.. is the same as Eyption ppl. jordanian ppl , suadi ppl , gulf rigion ppl, iraqi ppl,pakistani ppl, indonisian ppl.. wishes for u

eyal said...

From each lesson we need to learn something....
And if the only think you learned that this war indicates that you can beat Israel it means that you didn't learned anything.
We are so ready for peace so go for it.
I really hope that all of us learned that If we wont live in peace we will live in war.
I do not think that no one will make the Arabs disappear and no one will make Israel disappear so we must find a way to live together in peace.
if not we will continue to count dead ppl in both sides and trust me you will need to count much more (that's another thing you needed to learn from this war).


barroon said...

Egyption ppl say exactly what " ahmadinejad" Say..but i guess they r not as stupid as " ahmadinejad" to say it when milions of aduians are around . learn some arabic if u already dont know it and tune to whatever arabic chanel (egyption ones also ) and listen. not a word diffrent than ahmadinejad.

barroon said...


actually im not thinking that way..but when i come here and read isrealies are proud that they can use nuclear on others or carpet boming ... i learn more about the way isrealies are thinking

eyal said...

my name is Eyal not eyval so please respect it.... how would you feel if I spelled your name like: "babboon" ?
Regarding all the nations u mentioned that do not want us here I can only say "tough luck" we are here to stay... like it or not !!!

barroon said...


and by the way...i personaly prefer to die rather than living in a world that whenever isreal wishes carpet bomb me !!!
dieing is better than living in fear

barroon said...

ok !!

eyal said...

We the Israelis must react to what the enemies are preparing to us.... If you do not know Iran is getting ready to destroy us with nuclear weapon so what do you suggest us to do? to thank them? we do not want to get there but if someone thinks he can threat us and we will shut up you are so wrong....
AGAIN - If you want peace "ahlan wasahlan"
if you want war - "ahlan wasahlan again"
We choose peace but if you will force us we will go with war...


Omer (israeli) said...

"Do you think Israel is better or worse off, when compared with 1973: Then, as now, The Military operations were halted before complete victory could be achieved."

Well if you recall in 1973 we were the ones being attacked. In 1973 Israel suffered many loss but emerged wining (since the goal of the war, was to exterminate israel, whats new? or at least comquer some land back). The objective of the attackers was'nt established. egyot got sinai back for peace in 1979.
Actually alot like lebanon war this time around, just oppsite. Lebanon suffered great losses but israel objective wasn't complete.
So its a bit the other way around the corrolation between lebanon II and "Yom Kipur" war.

As for Iran:
You all like to call us "Zionist Nazis" yet Irans ideology is 1:1 with Natzi ideology. And its not only Ahminjad, its all the rest of their leaders as well.
Israel never declared intesions exterminate a nation or a race. Our declared goal is peace. But our enemys want, and wanted for years to exterminate us. You can blame Israel for everything, But untill the arab-world starts activaly oposing the ideology of genocide there wont be any peace:

You ask why i call it genocide? How else do you expect israel to go? I was born in 1976, my friends and family are here. If i need to protect them i will. Everyone here will fight.
I belive we will survive. Maybe after WWIII and after the whole ME will detruct then maybe, the arab world will be willing to accept truly peace with israel.

Our hourglass for full on confrontaion has begun: The extreme arab regimes will get new power from lebanon, they will attack israel, and with them might join countries like syria and even egypt.

The arab-world hatred for israel is so hight, i don't see any hope for peace in the near future.

The Pl's could long get there 67 borders, if they weren't greedy and wanted the whole of israel. But why should they give up? The arab world is behind them. You say we don't care for PL's blood, while you are the ones who dont care for ours. You think we opprese the PL's while they are the ones murdering my family in cold blood, While sending kids to blow up on buses... And we defend our selfs from this we are "barberians"? You can say we use extreme messures, but did any one in the arab world ever protest when 30 ppl: woman, children and elderly get murdered in buses? (i guess not, We "deserve" it, while PL's are innocent, nice values, not?)

The arab world can't even see where it goes wrong for search of peace. We are always the blame. You need a mirror fast. Most Israeli aknowladge there part in the cycle, but does the arab world?
Can you even say one nice thing about Israel without being called an "Arab zionist"?

I am for peace, and wish my analsys is wrong. But i'm realistic. We will see...

eyal said...

I really do not want to bomb you, I do not want to bomb nobody I want you to have a good life like I want for myself.
Give a chance for peace and you will see that I will be the first one to do everything that this peace come true...
If you prefer to make me disappear I will have to defend myself and I will do anything for it.


1earth said...

barroom, don't worry, because of swine like you I am beginning to wish the same for Arabs as what they wish for Israel and the West. Though Israel has the means to wipe out every Arab in the middle east unlike you impotent, all talk Arabs ;) And that's why Israel will never disappear. It would be like Samson pulling the temple down on your heads as Israel goes. All or nothing.

But don't worry about Israel destroying you. Seeing ho0 the backwards Arabs are a failed society regressessing fast towards the 6th century, Nobody has to lift a finger. By following fundamentalists Arabs are casting themselves onto the ash heap of history. No loss though, arabs countribute nothing beneficial to mankind. Just suicide bombers, terror and Sheiks squandering oil wealth on fast cars is what Arabs are associated with.
Top 10 GOOD arab contributions to mankind in the last 300 years:
Hopefully you get the point.

Alternative energy is going to be the doom of the Arabs. It's no surprise the smartest of Arabs are getting out of the Middle East now, and there is always Dubai desperately scrambling to immitate Western success since the oil is almost gone.

Omer (israeli) said...

The funny thing is when we get attacked (like in 1973) we will still be blamed for this war. Arab logic eludes me...

Whats wrong with living in peace? we are just 0.01% of the ME in population and land. If our border will be safe (within eventually pre-67 borders) there will be no war.

barroon said...


after this war most extremist government will come to power in isreal. and first plan will be preventing war against isreal potential threats.. ur future government not seeking to any peace .
u think really any one wants war? 1 month and u keep saying HB attacked isreal .. u even dont want to see WHY!! u keep saying Iran ..syira ..iran syria !
IRAN NEVER WANTED THIS WAR ! simply becuase Iran needed the blance of power in south lebanon what is the usage of balance if u dont use it !
evey one keep saying IRAN body ask why all of the ppl who attacked WTC were SUNI ! not shiea and were from SA.
all the ppl that UK And US arrested regarding last terror threat are paki non are them iranies!non of them shiea
Im not saying iran is innoccent but what iran really want is to be completly safe,like every other country becuase there was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO Many attackets againest him in last 30 years.
anyway... i shouldnt get to in such a long argument , every one will see and believe what he want at first and last

Muxecoid said...

1earth, I can name one famous arab modern scientist - Abdus Salam. Your list is incomplete. You'd better give list of 100 most important contributors to science for latest 100 years and show that 40% of the list are jews.

Barroon, I guess that if you were from Syria or Iran you would just not be able to access many internet resources including this one. Now I'll explain why Israel is democratic. Theoretically we must have elections every 4 years, but this never happens in time. Politicians know that if they remain in government (coalition) while acting against their voters interests they will have no votes next time. So parties often leave coalition causing early elections. If representatives do not behave according to the voters' wishes they are out of politics, recent example Shinui. This party was in coalition but acted against their own voters and from 15 (of 120) representatives in parlament fell to zero.

Omer (israeli) said...

there were SOOOOOOOO many attactks on Israel in the last 60 years.
So why isn't it OK for US to keep our power?

"and first plan will be preventing war against isreal potential threats"

you mean "precived" threat, Israel wont be the one attacking. And you call it what: "self defence" ?

Israel will never attack unprovoked, but as it seems, you rather create more provocation then deal with the real problem.

Paul Edwards said...

barroon, "1 month and u keep saying HB attacked isreal .. u even dont want to see WHY!!"

We know why HB attacked Israel. Because HB is dogmatic, racist and religiously bigotted, the same as you. Israel on the other hand is rational, humanist and anti-subjugation. World War IV is a war between rational, humanist, non-subjugators and dogmatic, non-humanist subjugators. The good guys will win this war. We have FAR superior firepower and a HUGE alliance.

Omer (israeli) said...

Pleaes everyone,
Stop threatning with war. You can say the war is imment or whatever.

But threatning is non-productive.

Omer (israeli) said...

"u even dont want to see WHY!?"

Why? becuse of 15 prisioners?
Why don't HA attack Syria? (Answer: probebly they are not "evil zionist", even thou, unlike israel, they cant see red-cross to confirm they are even alive!

Why? becasue of 38SQKm of land? which by UN resolution is syria? according to the resolution israel retreated to its full borders. HA needed a reason for provocation.
Is that how you negotiate in the arab-world? kidnapp for black mail? instead of searching for true peace?

barroon said...


b`cuz Israel is strategic ally of US, b`cuz US treated Iran new born government in 1979 the way arabs treated Israel in 1948 and since then US Think this government shouldn’t exist and since then Iranian government think US want remove it from the map ( which US wants indeed) . Iran new government had his own battle of existent starting 80tees .
iran government wants to exist and it is surrounded by unfriendly countries ( afghanestan , Pakistan , iraq " ex goverment Saddam and baes party" , gulf countries such as Kuwait , sudia Arabia ) which all are suni and hate shia and US used these unfriendly feelings to the maximum against iran starting 80tees

barroon said...


i don’t know why HB don’t attack Syria , but i guess HB needed prisoners b`cuz Israel in more than 20 years since 1982 was not willing to negotiate with Lebanon government for settling pending issues between Lebanon and Israel. B`cuz isreal think leme think I am the 4th military force in the world why should I settle any pending issue as long as I can resolve it one sided ! !

Paul Edwards said...

barroon, the US does not want to wipe Iran off the map. It merely wants the Iranian people to have their human rights of having a rational, humanist and non-subjugating government. It is the Islamofascists who want to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea. The Islamofascists will lose this war. The free world is WAY too strong and the free world gets stronger every time we liberate a country, such as Afghanistan, Iraq or Iran next.

dunes said...

iran wants to live in peace ? men what did u inhale ?? cause i want some of it too

irans presdient often calls for the destruction of israel !! is that peace ?
have you every heard the israeli PM calling for the destruction of iran ?
in the hamas agenda they publicley call for the destruction of israel so what do you call this ?
in every goddamn arab country children are tought that israel is a devil and all israelis are pigs that need be destroyd , while in israeli schools all children are tought that all humans have equal rights . so please forgive me if i doubt very much of the willingnes of arabs for peace while they call for the destruction of israel and getting rid of the infdales.
next time you speek check whats really going on in the arab street.

Paul Edwards said...

barroon, "why should I settle any pending issue as long as I can resolve it one sided"

It is Lebanon that is one-sided. Israel DID settle the issues - it withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 with the assurance that the Lebanese army would deploy there. Israel stuck to its end of the bargain, Lebanon didn't. Israel doesn't need to put up with shit like this. It should have reinvaded Lebanon back in 2000, instead of sitting back and letting Hizbullah arm itself with rockets. Because you're a racist you don't have the ability to see reality.

barroon said...


how come US never attacked SA which is the place of most extremist Islamic idea producer in the world., how come US never speak strongly against the human right violation in SA ? or Egypt ?
SA have one of the most dirty positions and government in whole ME !

Omer (israeli) said...

"iran government wants to exist and it is surrounded by unfriendly countries "

Same is true for Israel.

"is surrounded by unfriendly countries "

Same true for Israel.

" but i guess HB needed prisoners b`cuz Israel in more than 20 years since 1982 was not willing to negotiate with Lebanon government for settling pending issues between Lebanon and Israel"

Lets not mess the cause with the reason. If there is peace, Israel doesn't need prisioners (They just take up space in prisions).
If HA woudln't continue to threat Israel, then maybe Israel could have negotiated with Lebanon.
But if The Govt of Lebanon cannot promise peace on its own borders (Since only Nasrallah can decide that), then how is Israel supposed to make peace? Do Peace with HA? HAAAAAAAA, you know vey well that they share the same idelogy from Iran (as well as treaching with Iranian text books at their school). HA is little Iran, even if they are Lebanese.

Israel retreted from Lebanon in 2000. The issued left remain are small. Actually they are SO SMALL, compared to israel major problem.

But instead of living it as a small problem, The HA had to take it out of proportion. How would any other country take it, if another country kidnapped them to gain political achivments.

If you think that by force Lebanon can achive its goals, then you are pro-war.

Beside we all know that HA target Israel not for these issues. They want to destroy Isreal, and they talk clearly when they say it, what am i supposed to think?

If lebanon wan't to settle its issues they should come peacfully. Or at least not cry when there is war.

barroon said...


Islamic fascist idea ( as u refer to it ) was there decade before of existents of Iranian Islamic government ! exactly when iran was the only ally and friend of isreal in ME in 70tees

Omer (israeli) said...

"Islamic fascist idea ( as u refer to it ) was there decade before of existents of Iranian Islamic government ! exactly when iran was the only ally and friend of isreal in ME in 70tees

As it seems, the arab world takes turn on who hates Israel more, when it suites there own intrest.

Omer (israeli) said...

Besides, what do YOU call the Iranian Ideology? "kill all jews".
Sorry, my mistake, nice and peacful.

barroon said...


the only use of force i saw was from isreal. forgive me but i cant call some katyosha that broke some windows every 6 month once a use of force.
it might happen in every other country.
during Afghanistan-US war , Taleban killed 11 Iranian diplomat inside Iran embassy !! but iran didn’t start a war with Afghanistan.
every now and then Kurds in west boarders of Iran attack Iranian boarder keepers and engage in guerrilla fight but iran don’t start war with turkey !
lots of countries in ASIA and AFRICA have problems in boarders but they are not bombing each other systematic and threat of carpet bombing say we are for PEACE

barroon said...


"kill all jews" in not Iranian policy. it might have been said by extremist religious figures but it is not a policy , and im sure there are enough extremist jews who say " kill all other religious"

Hatred toward Jews first raised in Europe, not Muslims .

barroon said...


u say arab world
Iranians are not arab

Omer (israeli) said...

Very nice Barron,

You say Israel needs to except a katyush every once and a while, or a kndnapp here and there. Yah?

I guess that as long as its not your blood then its ok?

I dont belive that "carpet bombing" will solve Israel problems, and it wasn't the case in Lebanon. Thou, i'm not trying to say that what happened is a tradegy.

If Israel haven't have responded, would the HA let it be? would they not attack again?

So you say, just lets them kidnapp and murder you, for the sake of peace?

Your living in a delusion.

Its like i punch you, and you want to retalite and i say: "hey, stop it, do you want war". Then you agree, only to get another punch. Then again ill say: "Look at Amir, i gave him a punch and he didnt respond, you should too...", you agree, and i punch you again, etc...

dunes said...

"the only use of force i saw was from isreal. forgive me but i cant call some katyosha that broke some windows every 6 month once"

some katyush ? well tell that to 40 israelis that died from that katyush
a bullet is small to and well it can brake windows but it will still kill.
and as for force
every suicde bomber get paid by iran and syria , as for force its not the first time israeli soldiers got kidnapped
so who used force ?
as i said before dont talk about things you have no idea of.

Omer (israeli) said...

We got attacked from Katyusha since the 70th, well before Lebanon war in 1982. Yet they only know how to yell "Agression" without looking in there own plate.

barroon said...


i say if isreal want peace this is not the way of handeling problems . which i know 99.99% of isrealies think they are handeling it well!

barroon said...


im talking about before 12th of July . i never heard any isreali killed on katysha attacks in few previous years

Omer (israeli) said...


I dont think israel did the right thing. And I'm sure your 99.9% satistic is wrong. You will understand this well, When Olmert is kicked out by his own voters...

BTW, what is your solution for peace?
I talk truly when i say that over 70% of Israeli are willing to trade true peace for ALL occupied land and prisioners. We just want to leave peacfully inside 1949 borders, do you think you can grant us that much? will most arab, persian truly accept this deal?
By their rethoric, it doesn't seem so.

Omer (israeli) said...

"im talking about before 12th of July . i never heard any isreali killed on katysha attacks in few previous years"

That only because in the arab media Israel blood is worth sh*t. Plus this way, me can maintian our "Agreesor" status.

barroon said...


as far as i know still 85% of isrealis think this war was needed. and i said in early comment.. yes i agree olmert will kicked out and an extrem isreal goverment will come to power and i guess then real wars will began !!
my solution is that Isreal put 1000,00000000000% effort and good will in solving pl problems so no boday can calim thier fight!!
if pl start to say well we are living good with our isrealies brother every one will and SHOLD shut up

Omer (israeli) said...

I agree,
But i like to add that it requires that: Iran, Hamas, Ha and Syria put 1000000% effort for peace.
Or beter yet, let them start with 1% then you can ask anything you want...

barroon said...


if pl wants to come back to thier land... why isreal act so stupid .. just give all of them a passport and help to bulid
100 floor towrs in pl land and give each one of them a house !! will it cost more than all these years of war ?
may be my solution seems stupid as much as it is simple but im sure there must be a way a comprmise way to solve this problem.
let lowers go door by door to these pl refugee and gather thier consent for having 1 home and job in pl land ..will it take more time of all these conflicts?!?! will it take more time of bulding a wall ?
let isreal give economic plans for these refugee...
isrealis are proud of thier military force first and then of thier economic development..well why isrealies dont use it to some thing constroctive rather than destructive???
pl will not even need money from isreal just good will/help and sharing in resources

Omer (israeli) said...

you see your 1000,0000000000% effort is such a common thinking in the arab world. They acpect Israel to do everything while they bomb us, kidnap us and murder us.

Then claim: Israel doesn't want peace. How conviniant.

barroon said...


when there is no cuase , iran cant fight a battle which doesnt exist !
PL cuase !!

Omer (israeli) said...

When PL's get there land (in 67 border), Israel must address the refugees. That our moral obligation. The deal, which is developed in the last years, is to give them new houses and money inside Palestinie (probebly with european money).

I do belive giving peace a chance, But you need to understand that we cant do it alone. We need true partners, PPL who are willing to leave the anger behind (instead of teaching it to 7yr old kids).
You have no idea, How much Israel thirst for peace. And again and again disappointed when our neibours only plan war...

barroon said...


well .. i give seems this cycle is not going to finish.
the finla word
If israel think it is big let it act BIG

Omer (israeli) said...

"when there is no cuase , iran cant fight a battle which doesnt exist !"

What is your connection? All i hear form Iran is kill all jews casue they are scum of the earth and responsibale for all world problems. Plus Ahminjad famous speech in malasya with the famous "Solution" for the ME.
How did you connect PL's to Iran, silly you.

Dimitry said...

im talking about before 12th of July . i never heard any isreali killed on katysha attacks in few previous years

So you haven't heard about them. Those attacks recieved little attention from Israeli media, it's unsurprising Arab and International media didn't mention them at all.

as far as i know still 85% of isrealis think this war was needed.

Of course it was. Higher % of American is convinced WWII was needed. What does that tell you?

To the Lebanese here,
My prediction is that LAF and the peacekeepers would deploy in South Lebanon, but aside from several mummer shows for the media, would adopt a policy of not interfereing with HA. HA would re-arm itself, rebuild its arsenal, and place itself in pretty much the same position as it was before this war. And in several years from now (as Israeli gov would likely incompetent enough not to do anything about it before HA is ready), there'll be a new round of this war.

I may - and I hope I will be - wrong about that. Up to the Lebanese nation, eventually - how forceful is your government, and how much the people would push it toward action.

Omer (israeli) said...

"If israel think it is big let it act BIG

We do aim big: we want peace.

Golda Meir once said:
"Our enemys want us dead, we try to survive. That doesnt leave much room for negotiaition"

Well at least things got better since then, many arab countries learned to accept israel since then. But the road is still long..

Is that TOO BIG to ask to stop trying to kill us??? then whats small? (kill us fast plz?)

Paul Edwards said...

barroon, "how come US never attacked SA which is the place of most extremist Islamic idea producer in the world."

Good question! And I would point out that the US hasn't attacked SA *YET*. The reason for this is GEOSTRATEGIC. SA is not an enemy government, and while enemy governments exist, it is better value for money to defeat them first. You can find full details of Anglophone Geostrategy here:

"how come US never speak strongly against the human right violation in SA ? or Egypt ?"

It does. It does an annual report on every country's human rights records. There's a lot of problems in the world, and the US can't deal with them all at the same time. It is going after them one at a time, in a geostrategic manner.

"SA have one of the most dirty positions and government in whole ME !"

Yes, and diplomatically we are getting them to change their textbooks. We need to see what the result of a more balanced education is. It may solve the problem without the need for war. We are hoping to avoid the need to wipe out 50% of SA's population who are religious bigots. But the option of genocide is still there if anyone wants to do it.

Omer (israeli) said...

I dont support the neo-con view of paul.

Just for the record.

Omer (israeli) said...


If you can't see this conflict has two sides and not one then i can't make you see it.
I have no problem to point out the wrong doing of Israel, that how we can learn and grow. But when will our neibours do the same? aknowladge they have a part in this as well?

AS for the PL's: Giving Hamas a country now is sucide. They claim, and its offically written in their chater that 67 border is just the first step, till the elimnation of israel.
They need the country to form a base for war, supported probelbly by Iran, with a missile range that will reach all Israel.
Do you think we will sucide? We gave vack Gaza, that didn't give us a second of peace. Couldn't you at least accept a small jesture for that?
When The Pls elect a goverment willing to do peace, their will be peace.

I'm sure that if each sides does it part, peace is reachbale.

Omer (israeli) said...

Plz look at west-bank map:

Notice how it forms a small corridor between the north and the south. And how close its to Tel-aviv.
Israel cant afford an enemy state in these borders. Its simply survival.

Omer (israeli) said...

A friendly state on the other hand... we can live with


peace to all

Chas said...

Did anyone see the memorial to the dead that someone has built on the beach in Beirut?
It is very beautiful, simple and dignified. It seems to be completely non-denominational and could equeally commemorate the losses of both sides. I only saw it on TV. If anyone can find a good picture of it please post it.
Normally it takes committees and meetings and reports and reviews to get a memorial built .. and then, when people see it, they say "What the hell is that supposed to be?"

To spontaneously create something so beautiful in the midst of such horror is an act of rare compassion and humanity. It reminds me, once again, that there is something about Lebanon and its people - many nations might surprise us with their tecnology or their military might, very few surprise us with beauty.



Omer (israeli) said...

Do you mean this memorial?

Omer (israeli) said...

Israeli press on resulotion 1701:

Chas said...

Thanks but No that is not it .. this is something people have built right on the sand at the beach in the last few days .. it is very informal .. just white rectangular slabs laid on the sand. The slabs are raised up a little at one end, just with blocks of scrap wood, I think, and they are in rows, but the individual slabs are at a small angle to the direction of the rows .. people have placed candles and flowers on some of the slabs and written (names, I imagine) on others. others are just blank.

I am still looking for a picture,



Omer (israeli) said...

I want to apologize if i offended anyone before. These subjects are life and death in Israel, and not something for afternoon tea.

Anyway this is not the platform for this, i know. But i feel i need to inform ppl how we feel here. Sure, we are all angry. But i met many good ppl here during the last month. Hopefully we can all agree on peace, before its too late for all us.

I feel very bad from this. I feel bad for both Lebanese and Israeli dead.

I know Lebanon is going throught a difficult time, just hope everyone stays safe. And that the end of battles come soon.
I can't understand my (impotent) PM Olmert: He decide on cease-fire, but then expands militiry operation. What the F*ck does he think hes doing?
I also heared rumors that Lebnons parliment support for 1701 is cracking, anyone know anything?

Chas said...

Been looking, can't find anything to confirm or deny.
As far as Olmert goes, I agree his actions are bizarre. Whatever death and destruction there is in this operation have a lot more to do with Olmert trying to save his political career and George Bush's credibility than it does with Israel's security. Hardly seems worth dying for, does it?
More worrying is that there seems to be an effort on the Israeli side to undermine the ceasefire before it even starts.

I hope I am wrong.


barroon said...


reporter said : " in most aggrasive attack on Dahiyah aljunobi today isreal attacked that area with 20 missile in less than 20 secend ..same happend in "eyt al shab" 1 missle per/sec "
both happend after Isreal cabinet accepted 1701 !!
if this is not carpt boming i dont know what is carpt boming in ur definition!

barroon said...

is olmert that stupid to understand there is no HB fighters are in that area ? is he that stupid to figure out there is no katyusha fire from BIERUT!! to aknwoladge that he fires at civilans? is he that stupid to understand Hassan Nassral is not there ?!?!

dougjnn said...

barroon said...

i dont think this was a real war..but i think it has real lessons

Yes there are lessons for how to fight Israel. But they have limited application. It showed how to fight a defensive ground war against an Israeli invasion of populated areas, if you don’t mind lots of civilian casualties in those areas, and so long as the civilians are deeply supportive of the guerilla force.

The rocket attacks were highly irritating to Israel but not really very effective.

The war was also an illustration of how expensive it is in all ways to infuriate the Israelis by too much asymmetric minor rocketry and cross border raids from the supposed safety of your borders.

Omer (israeli) said...

At least on this point we can agree. To tell you frankly hes acting Schizofranicly, And ppl in israel are starting to ask if there is a cease-fire, why isn't our son back home.

Offically the cease-fire takes place tomorrow, monday at 7:00 Am.
So by tomorrow morning we will see what the deal is.
They (Olmert, Peretz) won't back down on the deal. They seems very eager to implent them (calling it "A great victory" ).
Of course, at the end of the day, neither you or I won from this.

dougjnn said...

1earth said...

Though Israel has the means to wipe out every Arab in the middle east unlike you impotent

No you don’t. That’s an illusion. And ugly illusion.

Your 300-600 nuclear weapons even if there are that many wouldn’t do it. They could kill a whole hell of a lot of people but there’s a lot of ground to cover. There’d still be a lot left, not to mention other kinds of Muslims who’d then dedicate their existence to wiping out Israel. If Israel used nukes pre-emptively the consequences for and in the US would be tremendous as well.

In contrast a nuclear bomb in each of Tel Aviv (maybe takes two), Jewish Jerusalem and Haifa would probably end the Jewish state. High radioactivity in a tiny place. Emigration of those left to the US and other places. Jews have choices and would exercise them.

If Israel doesn’t start trying harder to get on with Arabs, only a few of whom really have your destruction as their top priority and even fewer of their national leaders who do, except in periods like this war, Israel is doomed. Deterrence can work against the really big threats from big and accurate missile owning Muslim governments in the future. But not if you make your enemies believe you really won’t co-exist without doing your utmost to dominate and humiliate them if you feel so much as a pin prick from some nutters. If that’s what they’ll think there’ll come a time when some hothead leader will take the nukes to take you out.

Willingness to use force is important. But so too is seeming measured and rational to your enemy, and seeming like you’re willing to co-exist on some kind of terms they can live with. It’s how the US and the Soviets each got through the cold war. Sure it would have been nice to have won that cold war decisively in 1968 when the Soviets re-invaded Chechosovakia in put down it’s democracy uprising. But not at the cost of risking (actually virtually assuring) a nuclear WW-III.

Pakistan has nukes and Iran is going to end up getting them too. You better learn to live with Muslims instead of always screaming it’s all their fault.

Omer (israeli) said...

Another trouble is that acoording to 1701 the Israeli can stay in Lebanon till UNIFIL and the Lebanese army can take over.

Now HA, agrees to most of the 1701, but they dont accept Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. This means, probebly, that from tommorow and until the forces come (2-3 days ill guess) there will be minor clashs with HA. While most of the IAF operation will stop.

Peretz said today, that he wants all 1701 be implanted and carried throught.

dougjnn said...

Barron said

both happend after Isreal cabinet accepted 1701 !!

They accepted it and set 5am GMT Monday morning as the time they would cease hostilities. Provided Hez does as well after that time.

A bit of precision in your thinking would be helpful.

Omer (israeli) said...

Plz ignore 1earth.
Does it really matter how many bombs there are, or how much space they cover? 1 is too much. Lets hope the world never gets to a situation where they are used again (and that goes both to Israel and Iran, as well as the USA)

barroon said...


since its accepted by Israel is more civilian casualties in last few hours necessary ?

dougjnn said...

Omer (israeli) said... (and Chas similiary wonders)

And that the end of battles come soon.
I can't understand my (impotent) PM Olmert: He decide on cease-fire, but then expands militiry operation. What the F*ck does he think hes doing?

He’s driving to the Litani (mostly by airlift jumping over the Hez blocking the way) so that the areas the Lebanese Army and international force will be going into is as big as possible and so he can claim in the aftermath that Israel seized all that. As well when it's time to start the phased withdrawal he can start with the deepest in and most exposed troops he wants to get out anyway, and point internationally to his wonderful good faith.

He didn’t do it earlier because the more Israelis there are in a wide areas of S. Lebanon the more targets there are for Hez gueriallas to kill or wound.

In a sense he’s grabbing a bigger problem for the and French to have handed off to them.

I’m not at all sure how efficacious this really is but I think it’s what he’s doing. Of course he’s doing this as much for political optics as to actually be efficacious, but probably doesn’t think there’s any conflict at the moment.

Omer (israeli) said...


dougjnn said...

Omer (israeli) said...

Does it really matter how many bombs there are, or how much space they cover?

Yes it does matter very much. In the strategic calculations of your enemies, and of your own military planners, who then share them with the elected heads of government.

Lets hope the world never gets to a situation where they are used again (and that goes both to Israel and Iran, as well as the USA)

Yes of course. But you can’t just hope and leave it at that.

Omer (israeli) said...

"You better learn to live with Muslims instead of always screaming it’s all their fault.

I wasn't saying anything like that, It takes two to tango. What i WAS saying that the arab-world (in general) blames it all on us, while not even trying to lift a finger, to actually aknowladge they have a part in this too.

As it seems right now, Hamas has an offical document (there charter) with genocidal ideas, destruction of Israel, and some plain anti-semitsm. Do you think we see this in israel as a peace jesture? Is that how you do peace?

There two sides to this story, and the sooner everyone realises this the better.

Israel did many mistakes along the way, But no way are the PL's clean.

You seem to think that we are the source of the trouble. Yet all we want is to trade peace for security. But its seems that PL's are willing to give us that much, at this time.

Omer (israeli) said...

fix last sentence:

"But its seems that PL's AREN'T willing to give us that much, at this time. "

dougjnn said...

Omer (israeli) said...

You seem to think that we are the source of the trouble. Yet all we want is to trade peace for security. But its seems that PL's AREN'T willing to give us that much, at this time.

Yes I know a lot about Arafat’s intrasingence and the PLO and Hamas charter provisions about eliminating Israel, similarly Hezbollah, and so on.

I also know that despite claims that Taba was 97% or 95% of the West Bank, that it was very far from a clean return to the 1967 borders, with deep incursions and so on.

I also realize why the right of return of Palestinians to Israel must be a non-starter for Israel.

Further what Israel has signaled might currently be put on the table with the table with the Palestinians is much worse than Taba.

It just isn’t smart for Israel.

Those deep in settlements simply aren’t worth it. That’s going to be more and more apparent over time as it becomes more and more too late to reverse course. Maybe it already is.

I’d give it 50 50 that Israel is doomed within two or three decades.

Get out of the West Bank. Completely. Really.

Sikeen said...

By the way. Comment Joel is famous gun crusader.
Joel wears gun.
Joel wants everyone wear guns.
Joel is Joel Rosenberg.

Omer (israeli) said...

I think the intesion is to do so. Withdraw from all the west bank, Accept a few major cities spilling in. These parts might be replaced by other lands of similar size, details.
The one major issue is Jerusalem old city. Since both Al-aqsa and the wall of the temple are less then 20m apart. So There might be there a UN prescence or something (to let both nation use its holy sites).

But for now with are left with no agreement. So even 90% withdrawl without a peace agreement, is alot. We get no gaurntee for security for that. Eventualy Israel and PL's will have to sign an agreement giving israel Security and the Pl's sovernty and Destiny.

In my pink unrealistic vision, I see peace with good neibours, trading, holidaying and hey even friendships. But this is of course only a dream.

dougjnn said...

'If You Are Men:' Threats and Bluffs Inside the Lebanon Cabinet


It actually looks like Siniora's trying harder to get Hezbollah at this early stage than I would have thought.

yuval from tlv said...

if you want to have a look about the fanatic view of the Iranian PM you can check out this blog, claiming to be written by the Iranian PM him self, Mahmood Ahmadinejad..

on the top right side of the screen you have different small flags, which you can click on, and the language will be changed to that nations language.

after reading it, i see that he holds a deep hate to the western civilazation, only because he was fed in lies..

you can understand what his future plans would be...

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Does anybody have the feeling of deja vu - 1939...............
Should I say more? ust reading the language between the lines makes my skin crawl since such vanity and feeling of devine superiority has already occurred in history with tragic consequences....Tony Blaire is so right - we are in the midst of a fight against an arc of extremsim - the new axis power of the 21'st centuary.

yuval from tlv said...

eran you are right,

and it sucks that we're the front line of this new coflict.

i believe that if goverments will negotiate truely with Israel,
promise us that the propoganda will be taken off, sign a trity that forces both sides not to attack each other, and have an neutral observers to watch this peace truely taking place,

then Israel will with draw from any land that it had occupied..

that's what we're saying all along..
we understood that we were wrong by occupying it, but we cannot simply go away with out ensuring ourselfs that we won't be attacked in the future..

barroon said...


I left him (A.N.)a comment.

dougjnn said...

yuval from tlv said...

then Israel will with draw from any land that it had occupied..

These are the lies the Israelis tell themselves and their unknowledgeable supporters. Taba, which probably wouldn’t have gotten through the Knesset, presented a pockmarked mess of a country in the West Bank for the Palestinians, with deep salients and no real sovereignty, what with the Israeli military stationed in the Jordan valley and patrolling all around.

Further it's been made clear by Sharon and Olmert that even this much is no longer on offer.

1earth said...

Dougjnn, America's two bombs, a few kilotons equivalents of TNT, killed at least 600,000 people from the explosion and years following of radiation poisoning. Modern bombs are measured in megatons, each of Israel's bombs is thousands of times more powerful than what America used on Japan. 600 of them is enough to wipe out every major Arab population center, to contaminate every water supply used by the Arabs, and to irradiate their agricultural areas. Muslims that make the hajj to a radioactive Mecca would begin to die before they even made it home.

And because of the way the Earth's wind patterns work, Israel doesn't even have to use its own bombs. If Israel was nuked the wind would carry the radioactive fallout eastwards, across the West Bank, across Jerusalem, across the entire middle east, Iran and Pakistan. Palestine would be the new Carthage, a land salted with radioactive ash.

Generations of Muslim children would be born diseased and cancerous, already on their death bed.

It's a good thing nuclear bombs are so deadly and powerful, because force and violence is the only language Muslims understand.

Omer (israeli) said...

What are you talking about?

As to my knowladge, Taba was a tiny pice of land dispute with the egyptians, Not the PL's. Further it was returned to egypt, without any militiry or militant intervension (unlike lebanon). If anything, It showed good will, on the Israeli side.

But you were talking about the Taba agreement?
Here is the map:

They only problem with these settlment are their size. It will be hard evacuating full cities.
Its a base for negotions. Since the rest 90% there is no problem, then why not give it now? Do the Pl's promise something in return? Squat. So you got 10% of the west bank open for negotioan, it might go down to 5% (+ conpesnation in for the same amount of land someplace else).

Don't you agree its a good step forward?
You say: ya you willing to withdraw from 90% of the west bank, but not the rest.
A. Withdraw from 90% is better then nothing, considering Israel gains no agreement from it.
B. 10% which will be negotiated, hopefully to the satisfaction of both side.

And israel isn't on the right direction, why?

1earth said...

And let's not even get started on Israel's anti-personnel biological agents. That stuff is truly scary, makes AIDS look like the common cold ;)

Omer (israeli) said...

Your not scaring anyone. Stop acting childish. PPL here have brains, They understand more then just the langauge of "Force".

So if you want to talk, then talk. But if you want to spread propoganda goto an HA blog, youll find your company there.

chuck said...


i would realy like to hear from u what exactly is u'r idea of Israel "learning to live with Muslims instead of always screaming it’s all their fault"?

u can say that the land of Israel is a palestinian land, (because unestly, this whole fight between muslims and Israelis derives from this conflict) and we can never finish the argument, cause each side has a verry persuasive argument. but Israel at least is trying to show some interest in solving this conflict. they say the fight is about land ? then Israel will withdraw from gaza, withdraw from the so called ocupied territories (one sided of caurse, because there is no one to talk to), withdraw from the south lebanese teritory (which was supposed to be the Israeli safe zone, so that hisballa won't manage to attack Israeli villages in the north of Israel), again one sided (UN decision 1559).

nasrala speaks in his threats to Israel, about bombing the capitol city of Israel, which is in his idea Tel-Aviv. the capitol city of Israel is and will be Jerusalem. in his threats he speaks of taking over the whole of Israel, which is in his words, the ocupied land.

u see, Israel has understanding about what the other side wants and about how we can try to make compromises, about what we can negotiate, while not destroying completly the Israeli state. but the other side, the fanatic islamists which engage this war against Israel, USA and the whole western world (megalomania symptoms, seems to me), doesn't even try to make this small step farward and ecnoledge the wishes of Israelis to have their independens and live in the middle east.

so the way i see it, the only way Israel can satisfy the wishes of these fanatics is when all of the Israelis live this country and go to europe.

that will surley end all wars. won't it ?

but then ofcourse there will be left all the other infidals that should be driven away from the globe. because the world should be a muslim world.

this is the idea of nasrala and his friends in teheran.

1earth said...

Omer, who is trying to scare anyone? Israel is not going to be destroyed because Arab leaders understand that act will be their own death. Only dumb Arabs and people like Doughnn buy into that propaganda that they can destroy Israel and all their problems will go away. Arabs may have brains but they don't use them. Their brains probably withered away from lack of use.

How many Arabs won nobel prizes for science? More scientists from tiny Switzerland have won then all 400 million+ Arabs combined. No wonder they hate Israel. Modern, technologically advanced constantly Israel reminds Arabs that 400 million of them can't achieve what 5 million Jews did.

Arabs are some of the most illiterate people on the planet. They simply don't read, if they do read its usually some erroneous work on Islam. Here in this link below (Muslim) researchers found that more books are translated in Spain in 1 YEAR than the total amount of books translated into Arabic in 1000 YEARS. Even little Greece publishes more books each year than the entire Arab world.

This is why Arabs can't be negotiated with. Trying to be diplomatic with Arabs is like talking to children. It's really difficult, impossible to exchange ideas with people so... limited in their wordly view. That's why Arabs hate the West, they think if they can destroy us, they won't be so humilated, they won't have to constantly compare their failures to our successes.

>According to the Arab Human Development (AHD) Report 2002, on an average, only about 300 books are translated in the entire Arab world annually, representing one-fifth of those translated in just one European country, Greece. It is estimated that since the reign of Caliph Al Mamun, more than a millennium ago, a mere 100,000 books have been translated into Arabic from other languages. Today, Spain alone translates about this many books in a year. In the AHD report, Arab intellectuals lament that their countries collectively publish less than 1 percent of all books produced in the world, even though they have 5 percent of the population. While the Internet has become such a vital instrument of learning, only 1.6 percent of the Arab population has access to it. Similar failings are evident in the economic sphere as well. The combined Gross Domestic Product (GDP), a measure of a nation’s wealth, for the entire Arab world in 1999 was $531.2 billion, slightly lower than that of Spain ($595.5 billion).

chuck said...

tonight i hear that teheran is against the Unifil agreement for a cease fire, and wishes for nasrala to continue it's fight against the
Israeli army for at least 3 or 4 more months.

maybe this is the interest of the lebanese government ?
of the lebanese people ?

by the way, did u know that untill the revolution in iran, Israel had good relations with iran. people in iran still support negotiating with the west. and yet, u have people that try to destroy all hope for peace in this area.

Nightstudies said...

The US needs to make a gift of a couple of our ICBM filled submarines to Israel so that Iran and everone else in the middle east will give up on destroying Israel and get on with life.

1earth said...

nightstudies Israel already has at least 3 submarines, each with nuclear capable cruise missiles capable of retalitory strikes against anywhere in the Muslim world. 2 more submarines are being prepared in Germany as well. Unfortunately dealing with Arabs is like telling a child not to touch a stove they only learn how painful it is then they ignore you and get burned.

Chas said...

Just FYI
I checked out the "Amadinajad" Blog .. it tracks back to the same place that is the source of the supposed leaked dialogue from Lebanese govt.
The site seems to be a sort of portal to a series of fairly right-wing political sites in the US.
I doubt if they have any credible sources within the Lebanese cabinet.
Also, I reasoned that if the "Amadinajad" site there would be a link or reference to it in the Iranian government site. There is no such link. I think the site .. and the story are a crock.



Dimitry said...

reporter said : " in most aggrasive attack on Dahiyah aljunobi today isreal attacked that area with 20 missile in less than 20 secend ..same happend in "eyt al shab" 1 missle per/sec "
both happend after Isreal cabinet accepted 1701 !!
if this is not carpt boming i dont know what is carpt boming in ur definition!

Similar rate of bombs/missiles thrown, but going on for hours, and covering the entire city. Killing tens of thousands people, at the very least.

Chas said...

last sentence should have read ...I reasoned that if the "Amadinajad" were genuine there would be .... etc

Omer (israeli) said...

Bad news:

Peretz said that if tommorow the HA will shoot Katyushas or shoot at soldiers, it will be considered a violation of the cease-fire, and give Israel legitimicy to "strike hard".

So im not so oppitimistic about tommorow.

Omer (israeli) said...

1earth said...

Chas, that blog site is registed under an Iranian .ir country code.

All .ir websites are controlled by these people.

Institute for Studies in Theoretical Physics and Mathematics:

The Institute for Studies in Theoretical Physics and Mathematics, often shortened to IPM (پژوهشگاه دانشهای بنیادی in Persian) is a government-sponsored advanced research institute founded in 1989 in Tehran, Iran.

Founded in 1989, the institute was the first Iranian organization to connect to the Internet. It is also the domain name registry of .ir domain names.

IPM is directed by Mohammad Javad Larijani, its original founder.

Why would a government organization allow this site to exist if it's a hoax?

The website is real, the views and opinions are real, and Amadinajad is going to lead to the destruction of Iran.

1earth said...

Wow, Lebanon's ambassador just stated that he intends for the Arabs to destroy Israel.

Why then should Israel give the Lebanese more time to rearm and prepare for the next war, when the IDF could just flatten Lebanon already and be done with it?

""Lebanon will be, I think, the last state to sign a peace treaty with Israel," UN ambassador Nouhad Mahmoud told CNN television's "Late Edition" program"

abou al jamejem said...

Folks, I've been out of this blog for a while(I was busy lately), and I am really not satsfy with HA not wanting to disarm in the area south of the Litani river because Iran and Syria do not want them to do so. I am really angry that some fucking guy in Iran whatever his position is, making decision to destroy lebanon. So just to release my anger I have prepare few nice words for all the Iranian and HAs. Lak ayri bi Khamenehi, w ayri bi Ahmadinajad, w ayri bi Bashar, w ayri bi Neseralla, w ayri bi souriya w ayri bi Lahood. Now I would like to translate for you guys: Fuck Khamenehi, Fuck Ahmadinajad, Fuck Bachar al Assad(the syrian president), Fuck Hassen neseralla and fuck syria. I am sick and tired from all those bastards.

abou al jamejem said...

Pasdutout said...

Interesting analysis of the greater crisis: Similar, in principle, to many assessments made here:

1earth said...

From the Lebanese ambassador that praised Hezbollah's attack (before the Israeli response)

>The Lebanese ambassador to the United Nations said Sunday that his country was unlikely to ever come to an official truce with its Jewish neighbor.

In an interview broadcast on the CNN television news network, Mahmoud said the Lebanese army would not disarm Hizbullah terrorists by force. According to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701 which sets forth the terms for the ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel, Hizbullah must be disarmed by Lebanese authorities.

When Hezbollah breaks the ceasefire Israel will have to finish Lebanon off. It's impossbile to negotiate with Arabs. Listen to their own words and watch their actions. Lebanon just admitted they don't want peace, they want war between Israel and Arabs. Lebanon will not be able to avoid being a casualty in this battle the Lebanese are asking for.

Ariya said...

Disarm Hezbullah and your problems will diminish. No excuses.

Lebnese Liona said...

To All my Lebanese / Isreali frineds especially abou jamejem,

Please read this article from the New Yorker , this is the same author who was first to uncover abu greib prison in IRAG:

If this does not open your eyes, I am not sure what would!!!!

Washington’s interests in Israel’s war.
Issue of 2006-08-21
Posted 2006-08-14

In the days after Hezbollah crossed from Lebanon into Israel, on July 12th, to kidnap two soldiers, triggering an Israeli air attack on Lebanon and a full-scale war, the Bush Administration seemed strangely passive. “It’s a moment of clarification,” President George W. Bush said at the G-8 summit, in St. Petersburg, on July 16th. “It’s now become clear why we don’t have peace in the Middle East.” He described the relationship between Hezbollah and its supporters in Iran and Syria as one of the “root causes of instability,” and subsequently said that it was up to those countries to end the crisis. Two days later, despite calls from several governments for the United States to take the lead in negotiations to end the fighting, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that a ceasefire should be put off until “the conditions are conducive.”

The Bush Administration, however, was closely involved in the planning of Israel’s retaliatory attacks. President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced, current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials told me, that a successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign against Hezbollah’s heavily fortified underground-missile and command-and-control complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel’s security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American preëmptive attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground.

Israeli military and intelligence experts I spoke to emphasized that the country’s immediate security issues were reason enough to confront Hezbollah, regardless of what the Bush Administration wanted. Shabtai Shavit, a national-security adviser to the Knesset who headed the Mossad, Israel’s foreign-intelligence service, from 1989 to 1996, told me, “We do what we think is best for us, and if it happens to meet America’s requirements, that’s just part of a relationship between two friends. Hezbollah is armed to the teeth and trained in the most advanced technology of guerrilla warfare. It was just a matter of time. We had to address it.”

Hezbollah is seen by Israelis as a profound threat—a terrorist organization, operating on their border, with a military arsenal that, with help from Iran and Syria, has grown stronger since the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon ended, in 2000. Hezbollah’s leader, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, has said he does not believe that Israel is a “legal state.” Israeli intelligence estimated at the outset of the air war that Hezbollah had roughly five hundred medium-range Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets and a few dozen long-range Zelzal rockets; the Zelzals, with a range of about two hundred kilometres, could reach Tel Aviv. (One rocket hit Haifa the day after the kidnappings.) It also has more than twelve thousand shorter-range rockets. Since the conflict began, more than three thousand of these have been fired at Israel.

According to a Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of both the Israeli and the U.S. governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah—and shared it with Bush Administration officials—well before the July 12th kidnappings. “It’s not that the Israelis had a trap that Hezbollah walked into,” he said, “but there was a strong feeling in the White House that sooner or later the Israelis were going to do it.”

The Middle East expert said that the Administration had several reasons for supporting the Israeli bombing campaign. Within the State Department, it was seen as a way to strengthen the Lebanese government so that it could assert its authority over the south of the country, much of which is controlled by Hezbollah. He went on, “The White House was more focussed on stripping Hezbollah of its missiles, because, if there was to be a military option against Iran’s nuclear facilities, it had to get rid of the weapons that Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation at Israel. Bush wanted both. Bush was going after Iran, as part of the Axis of Evil, and its nuclear sites, and he was interested in going after Hezbollah as part of his interest in democratization, with Lebanon as one of the crown jewels of Middle East democracy.”

Administration officials denied that they knew of Israel’s plan for the air war. The White House did not respond to a detailed list of questions. In response to a separate request, a National Security Council spokesman said, “Prior to Hezbollah’s attack on Israel, the Israeli government gave no official in Washington any reason to believe that Israel was planning to attack. Even after the July 12th attack, we did not know what the Israeli plans were.” A Pentagon spokesman said, “The United States government remains committed to a diplomatic solution to the problem of Iran’s clandestine nuclear weapons program,” and denied the story, as did a State Department spokesman.

The United States and Israel have shared intelligence and enjoyed close military coöperation for decades, but early this spring, according to a former senior intelligence official, high-level planners from the U.S. Air Force—under pressure from the White House to develop a war plan for a decisive strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities—began consulting with their counterparts in the Israeli Air Force.

“The big question for our Air Force was how to hit a series of hard targets in Iran successfully,” the former senior intelligence official said. “Who is the closest ally of the U.S. Air Force in its planning? It’s not Congo—it’s Israel. Everybody knows that Iranian engineers have been advising Hezbollah on tunnels and underground gun emplacements. And so the Air Force went to the Israelis with some new tactics and said to them, ‘Let’s concentrate on the bombing and share what we have on Iran and what you have on Lebanon.’ ” The discussions reached the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, he said.

“The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits,” a U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said. “Why oppose it? We’ll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran.”

A Pentagon consultant said that the Bush White House “has been agitating for some time to find a reason for a preëmptive blow against Hezbollah.” He added, “It was our intent to have Hezbollah diminished, and now we have someone else doing it.” (As this article went to press, the United Nations Security Council passed a ceasefire resolution, although it was unclear if it would change the situation on the ground.)

According to Richard Armitage, who served as Deputy Secretary of State in Bush’s first term—and who, in 2002, said that Hezbollah “may be the A team of terrorists”—Israel’s campaign in Lebanon, which has faced unexpected difficulties and widespread criticism, may, in the end, serve as a warning to the White House about Iran. “If the most dominant military force in the region—the Israel Defense Forces—can’t pacify a country like Lebanon, with a population of four million, you should think carefully about taking that template to Iran, with strategic depth and a population of seventy million,” Armitage said. “The only thing that the bombing has achieved so far is to unite the population against the Israelis.”

Several current and former officials involved in the Middle East told me that Israel viewed the soldiers’ kidnapping as the opportune moment to begin its planned military campaign against Hezbollah. “Hezbollah, like clockwork, was instigating something small every month or two,” the U.S. government consultant with ties to Israel said. Two weeks earlier, in late June, members of Hamas, the Palestinian group, had tunnelled under the barrier separating southern Gaza from Israel and captured an Israeli soldier. Hamas also had lobbed a series of rockets at Israeli towns near the border with Gaza. In response, Israel had initiated an extensive bombing campaign and reoccupied parts of Gaza.

The Pentagon consultant noted that there had also been cross-border incidents involving Israel and Hezbollah, in both directions, for some time. “They’ve been sniping at each other,” he said. “Either side could have pointed to some incident and said ‘We have to go to war with these guys’—because they were already at war.”

David Siegel, the spokesman at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said that the Israeli Air Force had not been seeking a reason to attack Hezbollah. “We did not plan the campaign. That decision was forced on us.” There were ongoing alerts that Hezbollah “was pressing to go on the attack,” Siegel said. “Hezbollah attacks every two or three months,” but the kidnapping of the soldiers raised the stakes.

In interviews, several Israeli academics, journalists, and retired military and intelligence officers all made one point: they believed that the Israeli leadership, and not Washington, had decided that it would go to war with Hezbollah. Opinion polls showed that a broad spectrum of Israelis supported that choice. “The neocons in Washington may be happy, but Israel did not need to be pushed, because Israel has been wanting to get rid of Hezbollah,” Yossi Melman, a journalist for the newspaper Ha’aretz, who has written several books about the Israeli intelligence community, said. “By provoking Israel, Hezbollah provided that opportunity.”

“We were facing a dilemma,” an Israeli official said. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert “had to decide whether to go for a local response, which we always do, or for a comprehensive response—to really take on Hezbollah once and for all.” Olmert made his decision, the official said, only after a series of Israeli rescue efforts failed.

The U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel told me, however, that, from Israel’s perspective, the decision to take strong action had become inevitable weeks earlier, after the Israeli Army’s signals intelligence group, known as Unit 8200, picked up bellicose intercepts in late spring and early summer, involving Hamas, Hezbollah, and Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader now living in Damascus.

One intercept was of a meeting in late May of the Hamas political and military leadership, with Meshal participating by telephone. “Hamas believed the call from Damascus was scrambled, but Israel had broken the code,” the consultant said. For almost a year before its victory in the Palestinian elections in January, Hamas had curtailed its terrorist activities. In the late May intercepted conversation, the consultant told me, the Hamas leadership said that “they got no benefit from it, and were losing standing among the Palestinian population.” The conclusion, he said, was “ ‘Let’s go back into the terror business and then try and wrestle concessions from the Israeli government.’ ” The consultant told me that the U.S. and Israel agreed that if the Hamas leadership did so, and if Nasrallah backed them up, there should be “a full-scale response.” In the next several weeks, when Hamas began digging the tunnel into Israel, the consultant said, Unit 8200 “picked up signals intelligence involving Hamas, Syria, and Hezbollah, saying, in essence, that they wanted Hezbollah to ‘warm up’ the north.” In one intercept, the consultant said, Nasrallah referred to Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz “as seeming to be weak,” in comparison with the former Prime Ministers Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak, who had extensive military experience, and said “he thought Israel would respond in a small-scale, local way, as they had in the past.”

Earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, the U.S. government consultant said, several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, “to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear.” The consultant added, “Israel began with Cheney. It wanted to be sure that it had his support and the support of his office and the Middle East desk of the National Security Council.” After that, “persuading Bush was never a problem, and Condi Rice was on board,” the consultant said.

The initial plan, as outlined by the Israelis, called for a major bombing campaign in response to the next Hezbollah provocation, according to the Middle East expert with knowledge of U.S. and Israeli thinking. Israel believed that, by targeting Lebanon’s infrastructure, including highways, fuel depots, and even the civilian runways at the main Beirut airport, it could persuade Lebanon’s large Christian and Sunni populations to turn against Hezbollah, according to the former senior intelligence official. The airport, highways, and bridges, among other things, have been hit in the bombing campaign. The Israeli Air Force had flown almost nine thousand missions as of last week. (David Siegel, the Israeli spokesman, said that Israel had targeted only sites connected to Hezbollah; the bombing of bridges and roads was meant to prevent the transport of weapons.)

The Israeli plan, according to the former senior intelligence official, was “the mirror image of what the United States has been planning for Iran.” (The initial U.S. Air Force proposals for an air attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear capacity, which included the option of intense bombing of civilian infrastructure targets inside Iran, have been resisted by the top leadership of the Army, the Navy, and the Marine Corps, according to current and former officials. They argue that the Air Force plan will not work and will inevitably lead, as in the Israeli war with Hezbollah, to the insertion of troops on the ground.)

Uzi Arad, who served for more than two decades in the Mossad, told me that to the best of his knowledge the contacts between the Israeli and U.S. governments were routine, and that, “in all my meetings and conversations with government officials, never once did I hear anyone refer to prior coördination with the United States.” He was troubled by one issue—the speed with which the Olmert government went to war. “For the life of me, I’ve never seen a decision to go to war taken so speedily,” he said. “We usually go through long analyses.”

The key military planner was Lieutenant General Dan Halutz, the I.D.F. chief of staff, who, during a career in the Israeli Air Force, worked on contingency planning for an air war with Iran. Olmert, a former mayor of Jerusalem, and Peretz, a former labor leader, could not match his experience and expertise.

In the early discussions with American officials, I was told by the Middle East expert and the government consultant, the Israelis repeatedly pointed to the war in Kosovo as an example of what Israel would try to achieve. The NATO forces commanded by U.S. Army General Wesley Clark methodically bombed and strafed not only military targets but tunnels, bridges, and roads, in Kosovo and elsewhere in Serbia, for seventy-eight days before forcing Serbian forces to withdraw from Kosovo. “Israel studied the Kosovo war as its role model,” the government consultant said. “The Israelis told Condi Rice, ‘You did it in about seventy days, but we need half of that—thirty-five days.’ ”

There are, of course, vast differences between Lebanon and Kosovo. Clark, who retired from the military in 2000 and unsuccessfully ran as a Democrat for the Presidency in 2004, took issue with the analogy: “If it’s true that the Israeli campaign is based on the American approach in Kosovo, then it missed the point. Ours was to use force to obtain a diplomatic objective—it was not about killing people.” Clark noted in a 2001 book, “Waging Modern War,” that it was the threat of a possible ground invasion as well as the bombing that forced the Serbs to end the war. He told me, “In my experience, air campaigns have to be backed, ultimately, by the will and capability to finish the job on the ground.”

Kosovo has been cited publicly by Israeli officials and journalists since the war began. On August 6th, Prime Minister Olmert, responding to European condemnation of the deaths of Lebanese civilians, said, “Where do they get the right to preach to Israel? European countries attacked Kosovo and killed ten thousand civilians. Ten thousand! And none of these countries had to suffer before that from a single rocket. I’m not saying it was wrong to intervene in Kosovo. But please: don’t preach to us about the treatment of civilians.” (Human Rights Watch estimated the number of civilians killed in the NATO bombing to be five hundred; the Yugoslav government put the number between twelve hundred and five thousand.)

Cheney’s office supported the Israeli plan, as did Elliott Abrams, a deputy national-security adviser, according to several former and current officials. (A spokesman for the N.S.C. denied that Abrams had done so.) They believed that Israel should move quickly in its air war against Hezbollah. A former intelligence officer said, “We told Israel, ‘Look, if you guys have to go, we’re behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.’ ”

Cheney’s point, the former senior intelligence official said, was “What if the Israelis execute their part of this first, and it’s really successful? It’d be great. We can learn what to do in Iran by watching what the Israelis do in Lebanon.”

The Pentagon consultant told me that intelligence about Hezbollah and Iran is being mishandled by the White House the same way intelligence had been when, in 2002 and early 2003, the Administration was making the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. “The big complaint now in the intelligence community is that all of the important stuff is being sent directly to the top—at the insistence of the White House—and not being analyzed at all, or scarcely,” he said. “It’s an awful policy and violates all of the N.S.A.’s strictures, and if you complain about it you’re out,” he said. “Cheney had a strong hand in this.”

The long-term Administration goal was to help set up a Sunni Arab coalition—including countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—that would join the United States and Europe to pressure the ruling Shiite mullahs in Iran. “But the thought behind that plan was that Israel would defeat Hezbollah, not lose to it,” the consultant with close ties to Israel said. Some officials in Cheney’s office and at the N.S.C. had become convinced, on the basis of private talks, that those nations would moderate their public criticism of Israel and blame Hezbollah for creating the crisis that led to war. Although they did so at first, they shifted their position in the wake of public protests in their countries about the Israeli bombing. The White House was clearly disappointed when, late last month, Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, came to Washington and, at a meeting with Bush, called for the President to intervene immediately to end the war. The Washington Post reported that Washington had hoped to enlist moderate Arab states “in an effort to pressure Syria and Iran to rein in Hezbollah, but the Saudi move . . . seemed to cloud that initiative.”

The surprising strength of Hezbollah’s resistance, and its continuing ability to fire rockets into northern Israel in the face of the constant Israeli bombing, the Middle East expert told me, “is a massive setback for those in the White House who want to use force in Iran. And those who argue that the bombing will create internal dissent and revolt in Iran are also set back.”

Nonetheless, some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the Administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should, the former senior intelligence official said. “There is no way that Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this,” he said. “When the smoke clears, they’ll say it was a success, and they’ll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.”

In the White House, especially in the Vice-President’s office, many officials believe that the military campaign against Hezbollah is working and should be carried forward. At the same time, the government consultant said, some policymakers in the Administration have concluded that the cost of the bombing to Lebanese society is too high. “They are telling Israel that it’s time to wind down the attacks on infrastructure.”

Similar divisions are emerging in Israel. David Siegel, the Israeli spokesman, said that his country’s leadership believed, as of early August, that the air war had been successful, and had destroyed more than seventy per cent of Hezbollah’s medium- and long-range-missile launching capacity. “The problem is short-range missiles, without launchers, that can be shot from civilian areas and homes,” Siegel told me. “The only way to resolve this is ground operations—which is why Israel would be forced to expand ground operations if the latest round of diplomacy doesn’t work.” Last week, however, there was evidence that the Israeli government was troubled by the progress of the war. In an unusual move, Major General Moshe Kaplinsky, Halutz’s deputy, was put in charge of the operation, supplanting Major General Udi Adam. The worry in Israel is that Nasrallah might escalate the crisis by firing missiles at Tel Aviv. “There is a big debate over how much damage Israel should inflict to prevent it,” the consultant said. “If Nasrallah hits Tel Aviv, what should Israel do? Its goal is to deter more attacks by telling Nasrallah that it will destroy his country if he doesn’t stop, and to remind the Arab world that Israel can set it back twenty years. We’re no longer playing by the same rules.”

A European intelligence officer told me, “The Israelis have been caught in a psychological trap. In earlier years, they had the belief that they could solve their problems with toughness. But now, with Islamic martyrdom, things have changed, and they need different answers. How do you scare people who love martyrdom?” The problem with trying to eliminate Hezbollah, the intelligence officer said, is the group’s ties to the Shiite population in southern Lebanon, the Bekaa Valley, and Beirut’s southern suburbs, where it operates schools, hospitals, a radio station, and various charities.

A high-level American military planner told me, “We have a lot of vulnerability in the region, and we’ve talked about some of the effects of an Iranian or Hezbollah attack on the Saudi regime and on the oil infrastructure.” There is special concern inside the Pentagon, he added, about the oil-producing nations north of the Strait of Hormuz. “We have to anticipate the unintended consequences,” he told me. “Will we be able to absorb a barrel of oil at one hundred dollars? There is this almost comical thinking that you can do it all from the air, even when you’re up against an irregular enemy with a dug-in capability. You’re not going to be successful unless you have a ground presence, but the political leadership never considers the worst case. These guys only want to hear the best case.”

There is evidence that the Iranians were expecting the war against Hezbollah. Vali Nasr, an expert on Shiite Muslims and Iran, who is a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and also teaches at the Naval Postgraduate School, in Monterey, California, said, “Every negative American move against Hezbollah was seen by Iran as part of a larger campaign against it. And Iran began to prepare for the showdown by supplying more sophisticated weapons to Hezbollah—anti-ship and anti-tank missiles—and training its fighters in their use. And now Hezbollah is testing Iran’s new weapons. Iran sees the Bush Administration as trying to marginalize its regional role, so it fomented trouble.”

Nasr, an Iranian-American who recently published a study of the Sunni-Shiite divide, entitled “The Shia Revival,” also said that the Iranian leadership believes that Washington’s ultimate political goal is to get some international force to act as a buffer—to physically separate Syria and Lebanon in an effort to isolate and disarm Hezbollah, whose main supply route is through Syria. “Military action cannot bring about the desired political result,” Nasr said. The popularity of Iran’s President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a virulent critic of Israel, is greatest in his own country. If the U.S. were to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities, Nasr said, “you may end up turning Ahmadinejad into another Nasrallah—the rock star of the Arab street.”

Donald Rumsfeld, who is one of the Bush Administration’s most outspoken, and powerful, officials, has said very little publicly about the crisis in Lebanon. His relative quiet, compared to his aggressive visibility in the run-up to the Iraq war, has prompted a debate in Washington about where he stands on the issue.

Some current and former intelligence officials who were interviewed for this article believe that Rumsfeld disagrees with Bush and Cheney about the American role in the war between Israel and Hezbollah. The U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said that “there was a feeling that Rumsfeld was jaded in his approach to the Israeli war.” He added, “Air power and the use of a few Special Forces had worked in Afghanistan, and he tried to do it again in Iraq. It was the same idea, but it didn’t work. He thought that Hezbollah was too dug in and the Israeli attack plan would not work, and the last thing he wanted was another war on his shift that would put the American forces in Iraq in greater jeopardy.”

A Western diplomat said that he understood that Rumsfeld did not know all the intricacies of the war plan. “He is angry and worried about his troops” in Iraq, the diplomat said. Rumsfeld served in the White House during the last year of the war in Vietnam, from which American troops withdrew in 1975, “and he did not want to see something like this having an impact in Iraq.” Rumsfeld’s concern, the diplomat added, was that an expansion of the war into Iran could put the American troops in Iraq at greater risk of attacks by pro-Iranian Shiite militias.

At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on August 3rd, Rumsfeld was less than enthusiastic about the war’s implications for the American troops in Iraq. Asked whether the Administration was mindful of the war’s impact on Iraq, he testified that, in his meetings with Bush and Condoleezza Rice, “there is a sensitivity to the desire to not have our country or our interests or our forces put at greater risk as a result of what’s taking place between Israel and Hezbollah. . . . There are a variety of risks that we face in that region, and it’s a difficult and delicate situation.”

The Pentagon consultant dismissed talk of a split at the top of the Administration, however, and said simply, “Rummy is on the team. He’d love to see Hezbollah degraded, but he also is a voice for less bombing and more innovative Israeli ground operations.” The former senior intelligence official similarly depicted Rumsfeld as being “delighted that Israel is our stalking horse.”

There are also questions about the status of Condoleezza Rice. Her initial support for the Israeli air war against Hezbollah has reportedly been tempered by dismay at the effects of the attacks on Lebanon. The Pentagon consultant said that in early August she began privately “agitating” inside the Administration for permission to begin direct diplomatic talks with Syria—so far, without much success. Last week, the Times reported that Rice had directed an Embassy official in Damascus to meet with the Syrian foreign minister, though the meeting apparently yielded no results. The Times also reported that Rice viewed herself as “trying to be not only a peacemaker abroad but also a mediator among contending parties” within the Administration. The article pointed to a divide between career diplomats in the State Department and “conservatives in the government,” including Cheney and Abrams, “who were pushing for strong American support for Israel.”

The Western diplomat told me his embassy believes that Abrams has emerged as a key policymaker on Iran, and on the current Hezbollah-Israeli crisis, and that Rice’s role has been relatively diminished. Rice did not want to make her most recent diplomatic trip to the Middle East, the diplomat said. “She only wanted to go if she thought there was a real chance to get a ceasefire.”

Bush’s strongest supporter in Europe continues to be British Prime Minister Tony Blair, but many in Blair’s own Foreign Office, as a former diplomat said, believe that he has “gone out on a particular limb on this”—especially by accepting Bush’s refusal to seek an immediate and total ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. “Blair stands alone on this,” the former diplomat said. “He knows he’s a lame duck who’s on the way out, but he buys it”—the Bush policy. “He drinks the White House Kool-Aid as much as anybody in Washington.” The crisis will really start at the end of August, the diplomat added, “when the Iranians”—under a United Nations deadline to stop uranium enrichment—“will say no.”

Even those who continue to support Israel’s war against Hezbollah agree that it is failing to achieve one of its main goals—to rally the Lebanese against Hezbollah. “Strategic bombing has been a failed military concept for ninety years, and yet air forces all over the world keep on doing it,” John Arquilla, a defense analyst at the Naval Postgraduate School, told me. Arquilla has been campaigning for more than a decade, with growing success, to change the way America fights terrorism. “The warfare of today is not mass on mass,” he said. “You have to hunt like a network to defeat a network. Israel focussed on bombing against Hezbollah, and, when that did not work, it became more aggressive on the ground. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.”


agam TLV said...

belive me when i say we dont have a problem with lebanon,if ican say something normal about the mid east

is that lebanon close each day to the western.

i am sorry to say is that your problem is iran & sirya.

ithink that will be over soon cause we close to world war iii.

maybe after that we all going to live in peace.

Tichondrius1 said...

Instead of all that talk about air war vs ground war, I think it would be more appropriate to just nuke Iran's nuclear sites...

chuck said...

lebnese liona,

it is not a new thing that the USA supports Israel, give Israel weapons and calls Israel a friend.
and it is not so ovewhelming that the Israeli and the USA interests r the same.

and yet, u can't compare it with hisbala and iran.
the hisbala is an extension of irans army in lebanon. and lebanon is not an iranian extension. lebanon is strugling for it's independens while iran is trying to force it's interest of hurting the west, upon lebanon.iran uses lebanon as a front in it's war against Israel, that symbolises the western civilisation in the middle east. so it is not the same thing.

also, neither the USA nor Israel ever said that their main goal in life is the distruction of iran, syria or any other arab country. even if they have a dictaturship.
all Israelis ever wanted was to live in peace in an independent land.

Omer (israeli) said...

The cease fire:

"Thank you Nasrallah",7340,L-3290962,00.html

"Fragile cease fire",7340,L-3290860,00.html

dunes said...

here is an article i stumbled uppon from a lebanese reporter READ IT !!!!

Just Read !!!

chuck said...

and can anyone tell me which country in the middle east region has done anything to express it's willingness for peace with Israel ?

u can criticise israeli actions from many angles and many sides, but untill now, from the establishment of the state of Israel, Israel have always aspired for peace.

in the war of 1956 Israel conqured territory and gave it back to the arab countries in a setelment for cease fire.

in the 6 days war Israel was forced into war because of the formation of arab alians against Israel by jordan, ejypt and syria, Israel conqored a lot of land and later signed a peace treaty with jordan.

1973 kipur war, Israel was surprised by ejypt and syria in the jewish most sacred day, and yet managed to conquer a lot of land (101 kilometers from cairo and 40 kilometers from damascus), and later gave sianai back to the ejyptians, after signing a peace treaty, and also withdrew from the syrian area without any oblegation by the syrians.

then came the atacks from the lebanese side on the Israeli vilages in northern Israel and Israel went into a long hard struggle in south lebanon, which ended by an Israeli decision to withdraw it's forces back to the Israeli-lebanese border, hoping this will bring international pressure on lebanon to stop hisballa and deploy lebanese army on the border.
a few days later 3 Israeli soldiers were kidnaped...

then came the withdrawl from gaza, hoping it would lead to some kind of a setelment with the palestinians. which only made it worse because the palestinians took this action as a sign that Israel is week.

and now there is this war, which started as a justified fight to rescue 2 kidnaped soldiers and to bring peace to the northern Israeli cityes and villages.

maybe something good will come out of this war, hisballa will disarm itself and Israel might even have peace with lebanon at last, and maybe(being even more optimistic) syria will join this peace circle, and maybe (being totaly completley on drugs) even the palestinians will join this love dance.

but one thing is sure, the country that will give the most for having peace in this area will be Israel.

dany said...


Somebody directed us to that same article in this blog on Aug. 9. At the time, I had commented on it. I'll save you the trouble of going through a search. Here was my reply:
Interesting article. I agree on the general ideas expressed, but have a few remarks:
1) Lebanon is indeed a victim, and that's no joke ! The distiction that the article fails to make is between the Lebanese government and the people of Lebanon. As far as I'm concerned, "Lebanon" means the people of Lebanon, not the leaders of Lebanon. At least that's what it means when you're talking about victims and damage, not about declarations and agreements. The fact that the people has been misled (and lied to) to elect people who were either incompetent or scheming, does not make Lebanon less of a victim. Even if some of their leaders knew some things, the people DID NOT KNOW. But they still had to pay the price, not the leaders, the people. That's what makes them victims. When you're conned, you're a victim. Electing the wrong people is not a Lebanese monopoly unfortunately. "election promise" is another way to describe a lie, all around the word !

2) There is naturally a PR war going on, and it is normal that each side tries to exaggerate the destructions. When an inexperienced viewer watches CNN, they have the impression that the north of Israel is demolished and deserted. Just think...3000 missiles ! That's huge! To us lebanese (and also to many Israelies) who have been through many wars and destructions, we can see that the holes in the buildings can be repaired in days, and the shattered glass in hours (that is ABSOLUTELY NOT to say that i trivialize the damages: you can't fix a car that has burned, and you certainly cannot bring back the dead !). But I guess that this disinformation is fair in war ! I'm just don't understand why it surprises the writer of this article.

3) It is a gross misrepresentation to say that 95% of Beirut lives better than a fortnight ago. 100% of the Lebanese are more miserable than 3 weeks ago ! I was in a crowded restaurant yesterday evening outside Beirut. There was music playing. I was not crying. I may have been smiling and appeared relaxed. But I can assure you that I was NOT feeling better that 3 weeks ago. The same probably goes for all the rest of the patrons.
4) Most of us are certainly not sorry for HA's ass being kicked, but few of us can fond words of thanks for Israel. Sorry Isreali bloggers, but that's the way it is. If the cops are chasing a thief who has creeped into your house, and they destroy half of your house during the chase, your find it hard to thank the cops even if you think that the thief should have not come into your house and ultimately the destruction is his fault. You just wish the cops could have been a little more careful when running through the living room, knowing that the thug was hiding in the backyard.

5) I wish the writer would have been a little more discerning when justifying all Israeli hits as strikes against terrorist hideouts or terrorist infrastructures. I am fully aware that HA is using civilians as shields, hoping the attacted fire will provoque negative reactions in Israel and the West. But even Israelis agree that some bombings are unnecessary and unproductive. Hitting a bridge when an adjascent road clearly by-passing it is left intact, cannot objectively been called "cutting a supply route". It is always possible to justify an attack: telephone lines and electricity are also used by Hezbollahis, but that does not mean that Israel would be right in destroying all the telephone and electrical infrastructure of the country (which is probably why it is not doing it)
6) I know enough about the military to say that perfect surgical strikes are a fantasy. In combat, the level of stress increases the possibility of errors, and "suspect" target are often hit to avoid taking chances. I am sure that, during a training exercise, or in a simulator, many of the targets hit would have been spared (like the hole-digging truck hit in Achrafieh which was thought to be a missile laucher)

chuck said...

one more thing.

there was one other time when a state sent it's army to fight terrorist camps, and drive them out of the states bounderies, while syria was fighting among side with the terrorists, against the state.

it was in september 1970, and that state was jordan.
syria tried to help the terrorists and sent it's army against jordan, and only after pressure by the USA, the soviet union and Israel, syria stoped it's agression, and jordan managed to fight those terrorist camps and drive them away from the state bounderies. terrorists call it "the black september".

dunes said...

thnx for your answer
il try an say a few points my self regarding you'r reply

1. as sorry as i am as to what happend to the lebanese people i feel sorry even more for my own country as israel is under attack not dayes but since it was burn, and it goes with out saying that israel has been the vicitim here too.

2.i think ur right but still israeli officers cant lie about things going on like soldiers killed or boats sinking.

3. this is what i have to say about israel too

4. i agree with you but the thing is we dont want muslims,arabs,lebanon or whatever to like us !! we want them to leave us live our lifes in peace we dont ask for your love. said exactly what i wanted to say israel could have done alot more damage to lebanon but we got the idea that we do want a stable lebanon ,and if we destroy it, it wont help our goal of peace , in the end of the day we are nighbours.

6.i cant agree more with you but, you have to understand something else
in all armies in the world there is a distinction between a miss and a "miss" sometimes people want to miss
israel army doesnt do that and believe me i was in it i know how much civilian lifes mean in the idf.
Ps : you said something that intersted me "Most of us are certainly not sorry for HA's ass being kicked"
we know that there are some ppl in lebanon dont like the HA but you said most
are you saying that most lebanese dont agree with the HA ?

dany said...


Two comments:

Sure, you want us to love you. If you had to settle for peace you'd take it any day, grated. But if you were given the choice between having a private, discreet neighbour who leaves you alone and secretly dislikes you, and a warm neighbour whith whom you'd enjoy going out for a beer once in a while, I'a pretty sure you'd chose the latter. You'd be a scary guy with a miserable life if you didn't. So, please, work on our friendship (even if it doesn't happen tomorrow), not just on us leaving you alone. We'll try to do the same from our side.

I'm not going to go into the majority/minority debate. However, it is certainly my impression that most Lebanese do not agree with HA.

dunes said...

there is a difference between love and coexistence. for instance israel has a good peace treaty with jordan
does that mean that israelis love jordainians ? or that jordan loves israel ?
but we coexist in the middle east without killing each other and with out attacks , but we do have finacial treaties
so both countries enjoy this peace espically jordan as israel finnacial back is alot more stronger then that of jordans's
any way the thing is we really do not want you to love us but we do want you to understand that israel is here to stay
and that peace is best way for both our people.

seeker said...

I kinda liked Dany's proposal, we are too long living in conflict we forgot what in the end we really want,
look up the
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and see that although we are indeed struggling to acquire our second step on the pyramid we do aim in the long run for higher levels in the pyramid. Let's aim high...

Omer (israeli) said...

I do think we all wan't true pecae. But in Israel we have labeled that dream as "unrealistic". We just wan't coexitance.

Its a shame with lebanon. You were our biggest prospect for peace. culturely we both share a link to the west.
While traveling i heard many good stories about Beirut (from foreginers of course, Isreali can't visit Beirut). Many people i met liked that city. I hope one day i will be able to visit.

abou al jamejem said...

You guys should check this video to blieve that HA is training in Iran with the support of Syria.

abou al jamejem said...

To know that HA uses civilians as human shields u should watch this video, its in arabic:

Tichondrius1 said...

chuck, save your breath, there is little point in talking to that moron lebnese liona. The little bitch is comparing an illegal (even illegal with regard to lebanese law) terrorist organisation which is a proxy of Iran and aided by Syria, to a country like Israel, which is aided by the US.

I really hope the FBI will look into what lebnese liona is doing and hopefully deport that guy out of the US. We really don't need these terrorist sympathizers in our country.

1earth said...

Nasrallah is the new Beirut Bob, he sounds just like Saddam's old minister of information.
According to him Hezbollah destroyed a 1024 Israeli tanks and 50 ships.

tony.2.tone said...

When HA emerge from this with their weapons in tact they have every right to take power in Lebanon as they are the one that sacrificed life and limb to protect this great country of ours.

While you Christians just sat on your asses and watched as your country was invaded and then come our of the shadows to snipe and complain about the increased power of HA, you Christians are pathetic.

Damn you all to eternal hell, as you do not even have the backbone to pick up a gun and face down your invader, instead you get down on your knees ready to polish the shoes of the Iraeli murderers after they have just massacred entire villages if innocent women and children, you pathetic cowards, and now you are extremely worried that HA may use their increased power from resisting for the homeland by showing you Christians as what you trully are which is cowardly lap dogs of the Iraelis.

Already in the past you did the dirty work of the Jews to protect them by forming a SLA army and torturing your onw country men at the behest of your jewish master.

Ah but thats right you were defeated by the very organization that you know are snipping it, talk about sour grapes, just dont forget that the day you were defeated is now regarded as one of the most important in the history oF lebanon which just goes to show that all Lebanon was against you and celebrated when you lost, haha.

Lastly you dare threaten a civil war if HA takes advantage of its increased power after the sacrifices for their homeland, you dare threaten a civil war when in the last civil war you were all but demolished but it was the syrians (you know the people you despise the most), that came in and fought us to spare you, this time it will be different, you will have noone to save your sorry asses when you are going to lose, and finally Lebanon can be a united country without you traiterous Christians always trying to tear it apart at the behest of your masters in Israel and the West.

So bring it on people, bring on the civil war and we can finally do waht needed to be done 20 years ago. HA

shittyzionz said...

Who said that Christians & jews are united against Muslims? If you were talking about world leaders, I got to agree, Nazis have big influence on all leaders –apart from Chavez the greatest leader ever-, but as for the people, hell no, I chat with loads of people from Europe, South Africa & Australia plus, the majority of Arabs(Christians, Muslims & even Jews) so I can surely say that people around the world are against the Israeli aggression. As for Nostradamus's writings, well, almost every single prediction happened in reality. Sorry , we want one state (Palestine). Having said that however doesn’t mean I want to kill the Jews or kick them out, on contrary, they're welcome to stay in the Palestinian state, no genocides, no massacres, no walls, no check points nothing (yes Arabs are not Nzais like your leaders).

Did you expect the Arabs to welcome you with open arms? They came to OCCUPY a country & you want the people to accept that? Would you accept a stranger who comes to your house, kills your family & asks you to leave? For Christ sake, just for once in your life, be objective!!

Root Cause
I know a lot about the USA, actually, more than you do!! I know you have the most advance weapons in the world- just like Israel- but you cant break Iran, you might terrorize the people, destroy their infrastructure but you wont beat them!! If your planning for a war, then you're gonna end up like Israel now.

If the Nazis killed all the Jews,you wouldn’t be here talking or breathing for that matter. Lol funny logic I must say. Your leaders are pretty much following the footsteps of Hitler – bless his soul-, you claimed he slaughtered you, but you are doing the same-if not worse- compared to him.

Come on, Saddams strength came from America, but since he was – and is-arrogant & stupid, he abused it, and when he did, America backed him up to fight Iran of the Khomaieni, but Iran passed that war, even when though Iran was still unstable after the revolution but yet managed not lose that war! It was America that hated the Iranian leader –although he was chosen by his own people- so they supported Saddam &he was their great alley, but then they just dumped him. His country has petrol, & your country needs to control the sources of it as it'll bring you money more than what saddam used to give you. The rest of the story, we all know.

We don’t need your troops, thank you very much, we can work out our problems.Plus, if you think that we buy the stupid lie that your lame ass sons to fight for us then you are so wrong!! We can fight for ourselves & we can defend ourselves, you just want to have bases in every country in the world because you want to dominate it! we're not a part of that plan, so just leave us alone!

The prophet,
Civil wars did devastate us in the past, same goes to the USA, many countries suffered from them. BUT to have another country starting a war on us for silly & lame excuses, then start to nourish the differences between us, then that's another story!! Israel claim they are a peaceful country but yet they don’t give a damn about anything & keep on invading us every now & again. Bah, you just want to occupy us just like you did to Palestine.

Sam of chayyah,
I understand your point bro, we want peace for our country BUT we also want it with pride & dignity!! We're not cowards & stupid like other Arab countries (talking about leaders) we are Lebanese! Very proud Lebanese, no one should tell us what to do & use force on us in order to break our will!! That wont happen, I'm so with (death before dishonour) so no, all what I can smell is pride & freedom coming to us.
May God Bless our beloved Lebanon & our resistance and may he scatter & doom our enemies.

tony 2 tone
I'm a Christian Lebanese & I'm supporting HA!! plz ma te7ky 3ancivil war halaa o kososan eddam a3daana!! la sho kel hayda? kelayatna bn7eb lebnan bs el elktlaffy el rayy la yofsed lelwed qadyahma hayek? so lets stand united at this very crucial time &lets all pray it'll be alright :)
Dont forget that our prisedent is Christian & he adores HA!!


abou al jamejem said...

If you guys wanna help killing Nesralla you should check these two websites, they are really funny: