Friday, August 04, 2006

Bridges Close To Home Destroyed

Woke up to hear devestating news. Israeli warplanes shattered bridges linking the north with Beirut.

Fidar Bridge in Jbeil (Byblos)
The Casino Bridge and Ghazir Bridge in Jounieh-Maameltein
Madfoun Bridge in Batroun

Five people died and many are wounded. A 23-year old guy, whom my family knows, died as he was driving back home from his work in Beirut.

As a result of the shelling, empty fields in Adma burned. Of course, that's only a fraction of the shelling that's going on around in the country.

I called home. There is fear to travel long distances now. And when civilians rush to the banks for money, they're not allowed to retrieve dollars, just liras. You can't even retrieve 1,000 dollars now.

Everyday brings in something new, yet another twist to the bloody plot. And the question in my head is why are the Israeli warplanes going to "non-combat" areas? Why are they further isolating the Lebanese from each other and from the outside world? The Lebanese people do not deserve all that, they don't.

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

241 comments:

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1earth said...

"and the question in my head is why are the Israeli warplanes going to "non-combat" areas? Why are they further isolating the Lebanese from each other and from the outside world? The Lebanese people do not deserve all that, they don't."


Lebanon is a lawless territory controlled by militias that don't wear uniforms. Any military age male in Lebanon is a legitimate target.
The Lebanese people should have expected this because they have been performing the same indiscriminate attacks against Israel.

Itai said...

First of all I'm sorry your family lost a friend, I hope you'll never know grief again.

Innocent People get crashed when social and political forces struggle, it's an axiom of our world. I think the mechanism is pretty simple to understand altough its unfair to the individuals. Lebanon as a whole IS responsible. Individuals are not sovereign entities, Lebanon IS.

Israel shouldn't give a rat's ass if it was Hezbollah or Amal that attacked it just as you shouldn't give a rat's ass whether the pilot who dropped the bomb on that bridge voted Likud or Kadima (Israeli parties).

Lebanon declared war on Israel for all sense and purposes on July 12th when Lebanese militants raided across its border, killed and kidnapped soldiers and shelled Israeli towns. Now the Lebanese people suffer the consequences, it's natural.
What isn't natural is the two-faced policy the Lebanese people and government adopted. Supporting Hizbollah and claiming its not their fault at the same time. Ridiculous.

And just for the record IDF does take into account collateral damages like the 4 people who died on those bridges (I hope it's obvious to you that the IDF chose a time when the bridges were'nt crowded or packed with traffic to minimize casualties) but the purpose of that attack is to make Hezbollah's life harder when they are trying to move militants and munitions across Beirut.

So tell us when Hezbollah is disarmed or out of Beirut and we can have peace and go back to our daily lives.

Peace, Salam, Shalom,
itai

Lirun said...

1earth.. i dont know what earth you invisage.. but i sure hope you never pursue a career in politics.. you say some really way out stuff..

Chas said...

1earth,
Lebanon was a an emerging liberal democracy. One of few in the region, as such it should have been cherished and nurtured.
You should bear in mind that the confusion and division Lebanon was emerging from was not of their own making. Perhaps it was not emerging quickly enough .. perhaps its government was not as assertive as it could have been, perhaps in trying to find a way forward they made the mistake of trying to build consensus instead of risking civil conflict. For these "crimes" they deserve to be bombed back to the stone age? I do not believe any civilized person in the world believes that.
Even if your arguement had any merit, which it does not, bombs do not single out miliary age males for elimination .. they seem to be just as effective at killing women, children, the eldery, the infirm. They do seem a little more effective at killing the poor, who tend to live in more crowded conditions and do not have the means to escape.

Lirun said...

probably a fair opportunity to note that israel has suffered death and carnage today as well..

the same targets that the HA has been seeking to reach for the last 6 years - none of which are miliatary..

these are truly sad times

wishing a speedy conclusion peace and safety to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

1earth said...

lirun, are you going to keep being immature by insulting me? Your personal attacks don't hurt the facts initially posted.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

Doha - So sorry about the death of your friend. My thoughts will be with you and his family.

While I wouldn't expect you to have much understanding for the Israelis who are bombing your country, as it is hard to think in such a way when your life is threatened, I'm really curious as to why indeed the Israelis are bombing in those particular sites.

I gleen from the media that the Israelis don't want to alienate anti-Hezbollah Lebanese, and don't want to incur any more international condemnation than they already have. They seem to feel quite misunderstood. Assuming that they are rational and have a reason for picking their targets, why are they picking those sites?
Do they have any strategic significance? Do they benefit Hezbollah in any way?
I wish we could grab Hezbollah and put them all in Syria so that the Israelis could attack them there, but alas Nasrallah is a PR genius and he seems to relish in the destruction of Lebanon. I think that the key to solving the Hezbollah issue is for the Lebanese to take out the Hezbollah themselves. Now. Not later. Now.
You would spare your country further destruction at the same time you are taking it back from these scoundrels. The people who should lead the way are the Shia. This would make if possible for them to return to the Lebanese family and create a truly unifed Lebanon. I understand that Hezbollah is a formidbale foe, but you currently have the assistance of the IDF. Swallow your anger at the Israelis for the moment and use them to accomplish what is best for Lebanon. The Israelis don't seek to control you. Hezbollah and Syria do. If it is the Lebanese people who are the ones to destroy Hezbollah you'll go a long way towards keeping Syria out of your country. Even if Israel destroys much of Hezbollah's military might, you'll end up back under Syria's thumb if you don't assert yourself and establish a new Lebanon. My hopes are with the brave and strong Lebanese. Don't let us down.

Itai said...

chas,
Notice how you depict Lebanon as a helpless, pure baby and its government as a parent with the best of intentions. I almost cried with horror thinking of the Israeli evil beast trying to devour him.

So naive, no blame, no fault, how easy.
You failed to mention Lebanese ministers who are members of Hezbollah. You failed to mention more then million Lebanese who voted for Hezbollah thus showing support for killing all the Jews and destroying Israel.
You failed to mention the thousands of terrorists who fire rockets on Israeli cities, killing children over there.
You failed to mention the population who hosts them and hides them. Get real.

1earth said...

Chas, stop apologizing for Lebanese aggression, stop making excuses. What does it matter if Lebanon is bombed back to the stone age? That's not even possible. Germany and Japan had it far worse and were rebuilt nearly immediately. Roads can be repaired, mobile towers can be fixed.

The lives lost can't be restored and that's the real price both sides are paying.


60+ Israelis dead because Lebanon wants to have its Western tourist dollars and a long term guerilla conflict with Israel to prove Lebanon still got that hardcore Arab pride.

700 Lebanese dead to free a Lebanese prisoner held in an Israeli jail for bashing a child's skull in with a rifle. Brilliant arab logic...
You can't even control the militants you already have yet Lebanon wants even more veteran, hardened militants.

Lirun said...

the lady that was killed today wasin her house with her kids.. the rocket hit her house and terminated her on the spot in front of her kids.. they will live with this memory forever

Itai said...

Lirun is right and maybe in order to demonstrate how blind and indiscriminate Hezbollah attacks are she should have mentioned that it was a nice Arab lady and her family who lived in Mra'ar that Hezbollah killed today.
They also killed 3 Israelis of the Muslim faith yesterday in Tarshicha.

yuval from tlv said...

well you're not the only one who's using those bridges

terrorists are using it too, in order to escape, smagle weapons, etc..

we won't HB to suffer major loses, by it's people, supporter, arsanels, and so on.

they live in civil areas, fire from there, fight there, use civil infulstructure - there for those things are being destroyed too.

it is a collective punish, but if you hadn't took them out of your area then these are the consequences.. i'm not blaming specific the Lebanese people for that.. but as unfortunate as it is, to destroy HB a large part of Lebanon will be destroyed too.

just to make sure, today 140 HB missiles were fired again to Israel, one Duruze woman had died, when the missile hit her home.
another man is deadly injured.

they fire at civil targets in purpose.. we don't..

yuval from tlv said...

surely i forgot to say that yesterday HB fired long range missiles -
one fall next the jewish city of Afula, the other one had fall next to the palastinian city of Jenin.

so please don't praise the HB, they're nothing but terrorists..

atleast we attempt not to hurt civilians, and if we do we apologize for it, on the other hand HB is proud to kill civils on both sides..

Lirun said...

i was just listening to tv in the background and one lady on a tv show was taking about a tank that was hit by HA fire and she said "a miracle happened" and then described how no one was injured..

this got me thinking.. in jewish tradition almost all of our religious festivals include a story with a miracle in it.. there is always some sort of positive twist.. its kind of a bit like political speak because half the time.. like in hanuka - we really got creamed - but i guess the miracle was the persistence of our faith.. the perserverence of the light of our temple - perhaps representing the light of our hearts and our cultural optimism..

anyway then i started thinking.. maybe we need a miracle in the middle east? and if we do.. how do we get one? how does one arrange a miracle? can we bring it on ourselves? can we somehow achieve the unthinkable and turn things around in a way that defies all odds?

the assumption is that we want to.. so what is stopping us - really.. im not asking about why does HA shoot rockets at israel.. but more collectively as a people.. why arent we able to communicate better and resolve this? international relations theories could explain this through hegemonic evolution.. but i dont buy it..

i think we seriously need to wake up to ourselves (as dunes would put it) and start bringing to this region the outcome that we want..

my mother always said to me as a child "if you want something - behave it.. be it and have it.. behave it!"

let behave peace!

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

wiseman7777 said...

Israel is just showing irresponsible madness, especially when its citizens are believing all the crap and propaganda they hear from their politicians. How can you justify this destruction when the dammage inflicted on Lebanon is more than 1000 TIMES more than what you have received.
If Israel believes that destruction and war will solve its problems, Israel is being very naive and stupid. Israel is showing that they are the more savvage animals!

Chas said...

Itai,
perhaps I am naive. I don't like to see innocent people suffer, and that includes the Israelis who have been killed or wounded in the recent rocket attacks.
In terms of political development since the eviction of Syria the government of Lebanon was a baby .. just a year or so old. It had to cope with a fractured country, including the militants of Hez.
What would you have done? At the time there was no way to predict HB's actions and certainly no way to predict Israel's response. The best, possibly the only, option was to try to bring Hez into the political process. (remember that the Lebanese army is not the Israeli army .. even if it were it could not have acted as ruthlessly, and the Israeli army has not yet been succesful)
I am not saying the Lebanese were perfect - just that they were trying.
It may be that they deserved a kick in the ass to get them to try a little harder, they certainly did not and do not deserve what is happening to them now.

yuval from tlv said...

wiseman7777


now try to think again -

do you think HB will attempt to attack israel again for no reason, after this whole war is over?

NO

they wouldnt dare to, because they know they'll drag whole of Lebanon into another wave of destruction..


therefor one of the consequences will be to put their minds on how responsiable they are.


besides i think that by any mean after this war HB should completly disarmed.

but we all know the Lebanese would even dare to do so, since they're such a great democracy.

yuval from tlv said...

chas

let's assume Lebanon simply cannot do anythink with HB..

after the Israel "aggression", HB won't dare to attack israel again for no reason like they did 3 weeks ago.

that's the consiquences we want.

FGA said...

Yuval from TLV, you must be as witty and intelligent as your brilliant prime minister!!

When a people are pushed so hard in an unjustified manner, they will rally around whomever is standing up to the injustice! The Lebanese will start supporting Hizballah like no tomorrow, especially that they have nothing else to loose!

Your prime minister has put the Israeli society in such a precarious position....You managed to elect someone as politically savvy as George W. Bush! Congratulations!!

-FGA

Itai said...

wiseman7777,
War isn't a spectator's sport. You don't get to serve one ball for each one you recieve. Fair play, if you will, regards only the rules of engagement and the Geneva convention which the IDF keeps and HZA doesn't respect at all.

And if you regard this as some sort of international destruction tournament then think of Lebanon as Serbia who got drafted versus Argentina. Should Argentina have kept Messi and Crespo on the bench?

Israel is using about 5% of its aerial fire power and approx. 20% of its ground fire power with extreme caution. If you had any knowledge of warefare history you would have known that.

Lebanese Hezbollah is using 100% of its fire power indiscriminantly.

Lirun said...

to my dear fellow israelis.. i think we are slightly off the point.. if you listen to these guys i think most lebanese are not against our goal.. i think they are only questioning why they are have die while we achieve it..

i think what they are trying to say to us.. is that quelling HA is a narrow mission and that at some stage perhaps we might like toconduct a cost benefit analysis to factor the "collateral damage" (fuck i hate that term) not just to others and not just to ourselves but also to the broader context of our region and relations.. i think what they are asking us to consider is whether what we are doing is definitely the best way to serve our own interests..

i think this is a very legitimate question.. its certainly one that israelis are asking as well and i think this is a great forum to take off the war barret for a second and together consider what the impact might be..

dont be afraid.. ur not actually representatives of our government.. whatever you say will not be held against you and it doesnt bind israel.. so what do you have to lose by opening your mind a bit..

wishing peace to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
it begins with dialog

yuval from tlv said...

FGA

we are perfectly awar to the fact that the Lebanese people will support HB, but you probably know that this war will end next week..
israel is aiming for it as well as the UN, EU, US etc..

you places us in untolurantable situation - when HB is attacking Israel for no reason and then they threat to attack the whole northen area if we respond..

do you find any logic in that?

you Lebanese had done nothing to stop them and to aim for peace with Israel.. not even condaming HB after every attack they've made on Israel..

so why do we need to care for what do you feel about HB if anyway you won't do anything with them?


now after this extreme heavy bombings of Lebanon ( and i must remind you that the IDF had only used 20% of it's power ), HB will be awar to the consequences of it's actions, and will know that Israel will not sit quiet after it's attacks.

and don't tell me about the Shabaa farm cause those stupid farms means nothing to Israel and by negotiation we will give it back - we've said that already.

about 3 prisoners in israel - they're terrorists who killed civilians.
what about all the Lebanese politic prisoners in Syria??
attack Syria too.

GSH - Observer said...

To All Israelies in this Blog:

I have no idea what Israel is doing...I'm trying to put myself in Israel's shoews...but hell idf i can figure it out....

Guys...listen up....
you're bloging and theorizing while sitting 100 km from Leb.

The truth and the reality is the following:
With every non-HA target israel is hitting, you're taking poeple from our campt to HA's camp...we are loosing ground and HA is winning DON'T EVEN DEBATE IT....UNLESS YOU ARE IN LEBANON..ON THE GROUND.

What the Hell you want????
Are you Working for HA ??? if ididn't know any better - i swear to god - i would think you're working with HA and with Syria and Iran....
Your action is doing nothing but getting more support to HA????

When this is over -if it will ever be over - how the hell can we get rid of HA ???? we are loosing our support thanks to you and your actions....

Chas said...

Yuval
You may be right - but you are arguing that the ends justify the means - that essentially is the arguement that terrorists use.
Let me ask Lirun something very difficult .. give a free legal opinion! ).
Does not the concept of self defense. both in civil and international law, contain some reference to "reasonable force" or proportionality?

yuval from tlv said...

gsh - observer


you don't have the power to eliminate HB, you don't even dare to speak out loud against them.

what the Israeli policy is achieving is the heavy payment for any further attack on israel.

we know you won't take out HB, neither we do.

but we can assure that the next time HB will think over many many times if they'll want to attack israel again.


now you tell me - let's say two years from now...

HB had again attacked israel from Lebanon - i believe you all will shout out loud against it - not because you favour Israel (you never did), but because you'll know how horrible the respond will be..

yuval from tlv said...

chas we are well awar of the international laws..

we call the southerns to leave their homes, we SMS them, we drop flyes to them to leave the area, hell we gave them couple of days ago - 48 hours of ceaze-fire to leave..

if you stay in a village where you know HB is firing at Israel, then don't be suprised if you die after that

what do you expect us to do???

to sit back and say thank you for attacking us?

yuval from tlv said...

i'm not happy to hear civilians are being killed

and not happy that my nation is attacking Lebanon

i'm not happy of all this mess

but we came to a dead end with HB, who truely suffers from it are the Lebanese people..

Fighting Sullyvan said...

gsh-observer

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe if the Lebanese themselves started to stand up to Hezbollah the Israelis would be more amenable to listening to your concerns. Seriously. You can't just expect the Israelis to not do everything in their power to defeat Hezbollah. If that includes destroying infrastructure that ALL Lebanese share they are going to do it. If that pisses off Christian, Druze, and Sunni Lebanese, as well as anti-Hezbollah Shia, well, you know who is responsible for this mess: Hassan Nasrallah. Your rallying around this Iranian stooge does not reflect well on the Lebanese people.

yuval from tlv said...

new flash -

the arab city of Mejd el crum, have been hit by another HB recent missile fire on Israel..
one man is dead another one is injured


seriously i don't understand why HB is attacking arab cities except that they've lost their minds..

William In The West said...

reasonable force? proportionality? are you kidding?

As I said earlier, Israel is not being disporportionate.

The equations is:

Indiscriminate killing of Israeli citizens via rockets equals indiscriminate killing of Lebanese citizens via the eradication of hezbollah;

numbers are immaterial.

In the full spirit of war, forget reasonable force, proportionality balance.

And forget legality, fair play and reasoned argument

Because Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria Iran and Al Quaeda do.

Carry on Israel, carry on.

Itai said...

Chas,
No general reference to the subject. The reference I do know about is: when attacking a target with military value that is within or close to civilians use proportional force in orther to minimize collateral damage.

If you know about another section share it with us. But keep in mind that no one trialed the allies in WW-2 after they fire bombed 100,000 civilians in Dresden for example.



GSH - Observer, good idea.
Let's do an experiment:
Put yourself in Israel's PM shoes and think how would you have responded on 12th of July. But be serious about it, try to look at Israel's point of view and crucial interests. Be realistic.

I'll try to the same from Lebanon's PM point of view if you'll tell me what you think are the most crucial goals for him.

Maybe we'll understand eachother better.

Israel's 3 basic interests as I see them.
1. Defend its people and land. In short: Exist
2. Keep its detterence towards its enemies.
3. Have peace with its neighbours.

yuval from tlv said...

another news flash -

HB missiles, aimd to the golan hights near the syrian border, had fall in Qunetra syrian city.


they try to burn down the entire area.. it's a fact..

yuval from tlv said...

another dead israeli-arab in the city of Dir-El-Assad..


and you protect them in Lebanon..

way to go for you..

Chas said...

William
If you have forgotten fair play legality and reasoned arguement then you have also forgotten that you are fighting to defend a democratic state where rule of law and justice is supposed to mean something. Do not drag Israel down to the level of Hez .. show some humanity and compassion, some forbearance in the cause of peace.

yuval from tlv said...

oww i forgot to say

HB i apposing the next week cease-fire resolution of the UN..

then don't want to view a UN joint force cause it'll damage their ability to attack again israel for no reason

Guess what! who else had opposed to it??

Iran & Syria..
how supprising!

Tjex said...

Way to galvanize support for HA in all of lebanon across all religions. Now there will be no way to disarm them or for that matter to get rid of them, thank you for making things 1000 times worst us the Lebanese and for Israel.

Joel said...

I'm sorry for your loss, such as it is. That said, the Lebanese people made their deal with the devil -- Nasrallah and his Iranian masters -- and it's somewhat surprising to me that so many think that the consequences of that should have been so relatively minimal. (It would be a bit much for you to see the destruction of bridges near you as "minimal", but do read some history, and take a look at, say, the air campaigns against Dresden or London or Berlin or Tokyo during WWII.)

Pour yourself a glass of water and sit and the computer and think about why there's so much as a drop of water and a single electron flowing, and when you go to your bank to withdraw soft money, think about why it's still open at all.

Right now, something probably close to around 500 Lebanese civilians have died in this -- the rest of the bodycount are most likely Hezbollards, and most of the dead civilians were human body armor expended by the Hezbollards.

If you want help, get your self-destructive government to ask for it. You need a robust combat force to help you disarm the Hezbollards, and the sooner, the better.

Lirun said...

chas

matey i am not a human rights of military lawyer.. my international law study focussed largely on trade - however - i lets use our minds a bit with the knowledge that international law is a difficult and highly self contradictory body of rules that are in part based on treaties and in part based on customary international law..

the legal/moral doctrine of self defence has its limits - you are right.. however.. where this becomes more complex is how it fits in with the country's obligation to protect its citizens from harm and assure its citizens a decent and peaceful home.. there are many laws at play here.. not only the laws of war..

to further complicate matters - the way that international law is interpreted is also subject to extreme variation..

in any event.. if we do examine the issue of proportionality - as one would under normal criminal law - i would suggest we first of all look at its parameters:

(a) the extent of the clear and present danger

(b) the extent of the damage

(c) the declared intentions of the aggressor

(d) the restraint the country claiming self-defence has exercised so far

(e) the consequences that the defending country would suffer by ceasing the actions at an earlier stage

looking at these - israel's position would be, with respect to each item:

(a) 13,000 missiles purchased to destroy it and aimed at its territory backed by a constant stream of vicious messages and provocations.. would probably in itself qualify quite elaborate efforts to curb their deployment in its own right

(b) israel has suffered a continuous rain of rockets for 6 years.. this is a lot.. i dont think proportionality requires you to try to mirror your damage with your enemy and then stop.. but rather use self-help ie not wait for lebanon but rather apply force to kurb the continuation of the missiles landing in our territory - while the damage in lebanon exceeds the damage in israel in a tangible sense - i dont think this is necessarily a measure of proportionality.. because if this was the case then countries could take calculated risks by attacking other countries knowing that all that would happen is a =n equivalent loss in return..

(c) HA has been sending a very simple single barrel message that it seeks to destroy israel.. there is no question about HA's intention.. it may have collateral intentions and objectives and strategies - however - its long term mission is unequivocal and has been publically declared over and over

(d) israel tried waiting for 6 years.. it severly compromised its most significant defence umbrella known as the deterance affect and tried to leave way for the lebanese internal politic to rectify the situation.. the world knew of the rockets hailed our way and israel bit its lip and tongue again and again - just as it did with iraq in desert storm.. if the intention of israel was merely to damage lebanon - israel would not have waited until now.. israel could have hit much harder and much more lethally when HA was still in nappies 6 years ago..

(e) by far the most crucial is this item.. in common law we call it the "but for" test.. but for israel's actions - is there any other way that israel could assure its security at this point in time? well - now the world is saying - talk talk talk.. but only weeks ago when HA attacked israel lebanon made it clear that they had no power over HA and could not possibly be held responsible.. and for this reason could not be held accountable.. now by all accounts the lebanese government has only been weakening.. how can israel now trust the faible authority to be able to reign in the consistent aggressor that it is addressing.. its tough now when nasralla speaks of a ceasefire.. it would suggest that this item is resolved.. however.. lebanon trusted the HA enough to incorporate it into its politics and it was stabbed in the back brutally.. should israel - the sworn bloody enemy - be able to trust this body and in doing so neglect the safety of its citizens that it owes them under international and municipal law?

this is israel's point of view as i would argue it from a self defence perspective..

it is important to keep in mind that lebanon did not approach the security council about HA's ongoing activities in vilation of the infamous resolution.. Lebanon did not raise a single cry while israel was carrying the price for its political reformation.. this is not about revenge.. however - the international legal issues are long winded and complex and go way beyond the mere defence of the lebanese.. because the same law that the lebanese hinge on right now is the very same law that forces my government to effectively complete its mission of eradicating the risk to my country..

Furthermore.. this is merely examining the issues under treaties.. if we were to look at customary international law and consider how in our region violent conflicts are played out.. and how much force is typically used in the middle east to resolve conflict - we will never ever have a clear vision of what is right and wrong..

Conclusion:

international law is an impotent pile of bananas.. it does not offer solutions because it is so vague and every country is an independent administrator of its its own interests..

HOWEVER!!! this does not mean there are no solutions.. we are people first and foremost.. we all come from mothers who loved us and fathers who sought to feed us - none of us suffer alone.. our pain is echoed into many hearts each time one is hurt.. and as neighbours we cannot afford to ignore eachother's pain..

i pray and hope that this will end quickly and inits place will come a long period of quiet that shall lead to a sustainable and fruitful peace..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Tjex said...

And while I'm at it, why doesn't Israel go after the real players instead? Go attack Iran, go attack Syria if you want real change!

By know you must realize that there has been no military victories in Lebanon, missiles are still landing in northen Israel.

Do the right thing and take down the Syrian regime. Or is that too scary and a little too tough?

Doha said...

I just can't believe how in one sentence people can say "peace", "I'm sorry for your loss" and "let me tell you why you deserve it".

You know, I have no time to lose on reading your analyses. My country is going down in a hand basket while you sit to explain to us why you're doing what you're doing to our country.

And the most hurtful comments come from 1earth. I can't believe he wishes for our country to be destroyed back to the stone age. Have some sense, man.

yuval from tlv said...

tjex


do you have a better solution??

should we politly ask you to please stop attacking Israel?


should we cry like you for the useless UN?


or should we bomb you heavily so next time you'll think it over if you want to attack israel??



cause we cannot attack HB specific since they're hiding in civil areas.. using civilians as a shield against the IDF bombings..
they use your civil infulstructure therefor it's being bombed..

you hadn't took any actions against them - so pay the price.

if you coulndt do anything against them - so you should say thank you Israel for fighting for us against them.


war is ugly
there are victims
and a large damage

that's the price you pay for being the playground for Iran & Syria.

JLB said...

Through all this “mayhem” and “destruction” on both sides of the line, we all stay awake at nights attempting to identify the guilty parties and place as much blame as possible on their shoulders. Once we have met our goal, we calmly drift off to sleep (that is if we not to close to the action) secure in the fact that in having made this decision – we can go on for another day.

In war there are no innocent or guilty people (or as it is screamed from the headlines daily, innocent civilians) there are just people who have been caught up in a conflict between the leaders of a cause or a country. Leaders who have an ego as big as 747s that occupies their life to a point of self-destruction, or the self satisfaction of knowing they are always correct in their decisions. They rush to the forefront of situations that they believe can only be solved with their direct participation, leaving behind any sense of reality and justification of their actions. In other words, they are nuts.

The people on both sides have made their choice on their leadership, as in the case of Lebanon, 1 million (+) have chosen to place leaders of the group in question in their parliamentary body. And their supreme leader, a non-elected individual with an extreme background in fanaticism, whereas his ego has caused him to verbally condemn the Jews to death. In Israel we find an “acting” Prime Minister with a background in journalism where he was a military correspondent during a previous war fought by Israel, who obviously wants the permanent post of PM to lead Israel for years to come.

And in the meantime, innocents from both sides suffer the actions and results of both individuals, from Israel with less fervor than from the group north of the border. Both sides also enjoy the support of a 400-lb bulldogs – Israel the western countries of world and the group in Lebanon, selected countries from the Fertile Crescent.

From the Fertile Crescent we find less beating of the drums for peace, albeit quiet on this front they are “accused” of supplying the force from Lebanon with weapons and out-of-date rockets, from the west we find full orchestra’s calling for peace, and yet supplying the party in question with up-to-date munitions, with a spotter plane high in the air, pinpointing they strike zones. And we find the body that is supposed to represent both parties continually crying foul on the entire action, I might add a very ineffective organization riddle with corruption and greed, sitting safely in their glass tower in New York City.

People die in wars, they always have and they will continue to do so. Just as land and its infrastructure is destroyed along with the will of the people to continually march from one battle to the next. Somewhere in all of this we find as the human race, the futility of war yet we continue to rain destruction on each other – for the few who carry the role of being leaders of a situation that has run wild. I am sure they see the destruction just as you and I do --- listening and watching every hour of their day the results of their actions. You sometimes wonder what are they on that enables them to sleep at night, and how does their food taste when they sit at their daily meals, and how do they tune out the cries of the people who suffer directly from the Act of War!

Lirun said...

there is no need to be cycnical - it is one thing to defend yourself in a thorough manner and quite another to rub people's face in their blood while they're in pain.. no matter what the cause is and no matter what the excuse is..

please a little humanity - perhaps even a drop

William In The West said...

Chas,

I have not forgotten fair play and reasoned argument, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Syria and Al Qaeda have.

And if Lebanon is so democratic, how did Hezbollah achieve the stranglehold that they did in southern Lebanon?

How did any democratic government - for the sake of all its people - allow it to happen?

Israel is doing the right thing, how else can it stop Hezbollah attacking with rockets tell me?

Call for a ceasefire maybe? Will Hezbollah, will Nasrallah fully heed it in the spirit of peace?

Will Syria, Iran, hamas and Al Qaeda respect it?

Not in a million years..



carry on Israel, carry on

yuval from tlv said...

tjex


if we knock down the Syrian gov.
then we'll get a fundemantalistic Iranian style of Syria..

the IDF had already analyzed the situation..

therefor attacking Syria won't do us anygood..

but attacking HB will.. unfortunately the Lebanese are paying the price..




Doha as hard as it is for you, and i do understand you and your anger against Israel..

but do think of a better solution?

Doha said...

a better solution????? a better solution for death and destruction???? this bombing will not achieve much but create a neighbor that is more disgruntled and backwards!!!!!

Chas said...

Thx Lirun
- I was kinda hoping the answer would be a little more clear cut -sigh-
I return with you, then, to a simple plea to common humanity.

Lirun said...

cheers chas

you and i mate.. lets get it out there.. lets vocalise our desire for peace..

Tjex said...

yuval from tlv

I do, go after Syria and or Iran. Or at least threaten to. I'm sure you'll see a change in behaviour ASAP.

William In The West

HA got a stranglehold is southern lebanon ironically enough due to the first Israel invasion (which was due to palestinians). The democratic (other that the president that refuses to leave) gorvernment of Lebanon (in power for only 1 year) was in the process of negotiations with HA to disarm them. I'm to take the assuption that the kidnapping of the IDF soldiers by AH was to show the gorvenment that they could still be of use. Unfortunatly it is now too late to know if we were on the right track and needed a little more time.

yuval from tlv said...

i said it earlier

we know it rises HB support!!

but what do you think we should do?!

ask those psycho politly to stop attacking us?!

why didn't you took care of them!?
and if you couldn't - why do you cry when we do??


i fully understand your anger for all the descrution and death in Lebanon, but do you wish another civil war in lebanon between HB supporter and democratic lebanon supporter?

or you wish HB will take over southern Lebanon and threat it's opposes?

maybe you want to go back to june 2006.. when israel is being attacked and you don't mind for it.. ?

yuval from tlv said...

tjex -


we have, it didn't helped..

if we start a war on Syria by the way, the entire middle east will burn in the flames of war - because of iran.

we want the US to take of them after all the international attempts will no longer help to stop their fanatic psychotic goal.

Lirun said...

by the way - if anyone has a different view on the international legal analisys please share it.. i dont profess to be an expert on these specific topics..

im just a corporate suit wearing ocean surfing guitar strumming hippie at heart ;)

Tjex said...

yuval from tlv

So throwing out the Lebanese govn't wont give you a fundemantalistic Iranian style of Lebanon???

Fine, lets do something a little more simple then. Go toss in a few bombs on their airport runways in Damascus and see if that doesn't get AH to halt their missiles. Or even drop 'by accident' (cause we all know how many of those IDF has done so far) a few bombs on the Syrian border. Don't be cowards and go after the real players.

You are beating up on the kid instead of going after the delinquent parents

yuval from tlv said...

i think that in order to stop all these madness you must stop the propoganda tv stations like el manar

and also to knock down the Iranian gov. who gives funds to each terror group excists - Hamas, El Qaida, Hezbolla etc..

Itai said...

doha, turn off the TV and look outside, Beirut is still in tact. Check the numbers again, look at the bright side.
After a month of war, bombed by the 3rd largest air force in the world, the numbers aren't so bad. Less then 1,000 casualties, damaged roads and bridges, give or take 3 billion $ in damages overall.

If you had raided into Syria killing and kidnapping their soldiers, firing rockets on their cities, where would you be right now?

For that matter, if you pulled this shit against moral France, your loyal friend, or the U.S. where would you be right now?

You are lucky you are dealing with us nice guys south of your border, seriously, think about it for a second.

yuval from tlv said...

tjex -


we don't attack or tried to attack the Lebanese gov.!!!

we want them to succed in their democratic efforts!


BUT

it's HB who's sitting in lebanon, therefor Lebanon is suffering

and Syria said aleady that if they'll be attacked they'll wage a war on Israel - sure we're not afraid of Syria..
but Iran said if Syria will be attacked then they'll wage a war too..

now think of this - iran,syria,lebanon are in a war with israel - do you see the other middle east nations sit back quiet??

it'll flame the entire middle east.. we don't want this to happen..

and surely we'll probably win cause the US signed a trity to fight with us in case we have a war..
but we don't seek for destruction in the middle east

therefor we attack HB in Lebanon only.. and as i said - you pay the price for being the playground of Syria and Iran against Israel.

Tjex said...

Listen, I'm in no way supporting what AH is doing, as a matter of fact I dream of the day one can travel from Beirut to Tel Aviv. I just find the methods used by IDF to be extremely over to top and unfortunately, having the total opposite effect of what it was intended to do.

Your bombs have done nothing so far. You've killed a few AH fighters only to generate 1000 more. The arms will still flow across the border from Syria. The Lebanese more and more support AH and wont push for a disarmament.

So what has this campaign achieve so far? Nothing, it was made things worst in every possible angle. Honestly, can anyone answer this questions by saying that something HAS gotten better for either side?

I still stand by my previous post, pressure Syria, agree to a cease-fire with HA, offer the Lebanese govn't monetary funds to rebuild. Send in an official apology for the deaths in the village directly to our prime minister (avoid our useless president).

yuval from tlv said...

tjex -

read the previous messege i wrote you..


and what has israel gained?

now HB won't attack Israel again for alon long time cause they know the price is just far too high..

besides 400 HB fighter were dead and most of their long range missiles are bombed..

so it's a great achievment..

take a look for second - Nassralla said that he'll lunch mlong range missiles..
the only long range missile were fired hit Afula which is near Hifa..

so infact they had'nt reached no were longer then they promissed..

so now do you see what we have achieved?

yuval from tlv said...

they think twice in the future and they won't dare to attack again

plus they're long range missiles are no longer exist.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

Doha - I think people can genuinely feel awful about what's happening to Lebanon, and at the same time explain why it is happening. If the Lebanese were actually doing something about Hezbollah, even now, even just petitioning, I think people would feel it was more unfair than it is, but you're not. None of you is doing anything to combat Hezbollah. You and your friends don't deserve this. Hezbollah and their supporters deserve this. You are collateral damage. That sounds horrible and cold, but it is the truth. You may hate Israel for doing it to you, but you should really hate Hezbollah for bringing it on you and your lame leaders for doing nothing to stop it. Oh, and don't forget to hate Syria, for whom without none of this would be possible.

Seriously - think of the message you would send to the world if you were to rise up and slay Hezbollah yourself.


Now who should the Israelis hate for the missles coming down on them and the death and destruction all around them? Should they hate you, Doha? And Raja? Of course not. They should hate Hezbollah.

At least they are doing something about it.

Lirun said...

ok tjex

i like you am entirely propeace.. i want you to visit us in tel aviv by riding a train from beirut.. it would be awesome if that train crossed at rosh hanikra near the sea caves where there once was a tunnel..

but what would you do if you were the israeli government and the incursion and kidnapping had just occured.. when would you finish your operation?

Chas said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Itai said...

way to go Lirun :-)
Excellent, well put response. You should go talk on CNN instead of wasting your time trying to convince the un-convincible.

Tjex said...

True, I'll give you that but it's a hallow, you're assuming they wont re-arm. Why wouldn't get get more long range missiles from Iran or Syria?

And sure, you've killed lets say 400 HA fighters, but guess what, you've just made 1000 more fighters.

So unless Israel plans on keeping this war going forever, I'm afraid to say, this campaign has realy done nothing so far.

The power players are still free to do as they wish and everyone is using Lebanon to vent out their frustration.
Go duke it out on your own turf!

Fuck it, I'll pay the bill the get Syria, Iran and Israel to see a shrink all together!! okay, maybe the first two will need to be medicated first.

yuval from tlv said...

chas - israel extremers are not armed!!!

that's the difference plus they are commited to the israeli democracy.

once they'll attempt to do something undemocratic they'll be kicked out of the gov. invastigated by the police and evantualy go to the israel court

as i remember Lebanon is not doing than with HB.. that's the difference.

Lirun said...

chas..

that is not accurate my friend..

israel actually outlawed the most extremist groups in its society.. it has used its army to forcefully drag others out of their homes.. take their weapons and arrest where necessary..

and - if we talk about those who have entered the political process.. the suffered dramatic electoral defeat..

a very different outcome and a very different effort..

we too faced the prospect of civil war.. we too continue to face it today.. but we recognise the importance of our mainstream and refuse to be terrorised by our minority as much as they are our brothers and sisters..

yuval from tlv said...

tjex -


hehe that was funny..

but seriously as hollow as it may sound we must repay..

about the HB being re-armed.. we know that..
that's why we want a joint UN forces to take over southern Lebanon and HB is oppsing..

about Iran - don't worrie sooner or later this fanatic psychotic gov. will find it selfs just like the Taliban gov.

once Iran is out Syria will be just a puppet..
they won't have money, arms, and support of no one - therefor the entire solution comes to Iran..

but we cant fight Iran cause we don't have a shared border.. and they're just too far away to take a serious action against them..

therefor the US will have to deal with them..

cause if we will count on the europians we will have another hollocost, and they will just condemn it..

Lirun said...

i think you need to remember that our fumbling olmert was the same guy that sent the army into hebron to kick jews out of buildings that they had purchased because of how they were interfacing with the arabs around them.. he was the same guy that - when evicting settlers from outposts - made it clear that he would spare no force and that our democracywould not be undermined.. the israeli parliament includes arab MPs that speak against the security interest of israel every day.. our system permits this.. they condemn israel for everything and anything it does.. i have never in my life in any country that i have lived in watched a government tested the way mine is today by a minority that is respresented insuch a hostile fashion.. these aram MPs breachisraeli law and meet with state enemies againts the country's strict instructions and we allow them to speak while we silence our own - for fear of harming our democracy..

we understand the risks of internal conflict.. we live it every day..

wishing it end soon

and peace to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Achillea said...

I just can't believe how in one sentence people can say "peace", "I'm sorry for your loss" and "let me tell you why you deserve it".

Doha, I like you, I really do. And I do have sympathy for you and your country.

But.

If you want to convince people to accept your premise (which seems to be 'Israel is just a big meanie'), then you're going to have to deal with counter-arguments. That you happen to be suffering at the moment is unfortunate, but doesn't make your assertion valid or immune to question. If all you want to do is vent and generally wallow unchallenged in self-pity, then I suggest you either ban anybody who doesn't toe the 'oh you poor, poor dear' line or turn off comments entirely.

Lirun said...

come on achillea.. turn it down..

we express our views very freely on this site and most of the time receive very fair responses..

doha.. i thank you for your generally balanced posts and your genuine sentiments..

in a time of so much misinformation - my perception of you is that you speak from the heart and i have 100% respect for that..

(maybe i should let someone else say something hehe)

yuval from tlv said...

lirun i think so too


doha - truely you're a respectable person

believe me i'm sick of seeing innocents being hurt.

and i don't want to see you loosing hope or being hurt..

this blog is a great way to over come bridges we have Israel-Lebanon.

i can assure you the next weekend you'll gain back your happiness

it'll all be over - unless HB or Syria won't do something stupid.

Chas said...

Lirun
apologies - I will withdraw the post

Itai said...

Tjex,
You keep bringing up possible prospects of Israel's action but you fail to see the more probable prospects or suggest practical alternatives for Israel.

1. Attack Syria? Actually, on a personal level, I prefer it to attacking Lebanon but the problem is Hezbollah is located in Lebanon and doing it won't eliminate it.

2. Attack Iran? I'd love to but open the map. So we'll send 100,000 troops across Jordan and Iraq? Quiet a logistical effort. Fly over there and drop some bombs? long range, only one squadron can make that sortie, not very effective. And while we do it our cities are still going to be under Hez fire. Use nukes? Maybe We'll have a cold nuclear winter after this hot conventional summer. You should suggest it to our leaders.


I have a better idea: Why won't the concerned international community send a multi national armed force to Lebanon with a mandate to impose the U.N.'s 1559 resolution on the armed militias for the benefit of the people of Lebanon and its neighbours?

Let's see how things are going to play out next week.

Achillea said...

And sure, you've killed lets say 400 HA fighters, but guess what, you've just made 1000 more fighters.

Unfortunately, letting Hezballah get away (AGAIN!) with what they did would also have made 1000 more fighters. So Israel is now 400 dead enemies ahead of where they would have been. Plus they've managed to kick enforcement of Lebanon's responsibilities under UNR 1559, sluffed off for lo these many years, into high gear.

And before anybody goes into the 'hurt Israel's standing in the world' argument, what standing? If there's one thing decades of blatant European racism and biased UN resolutions have taught Israel (and anybody paying attention), it's that nothing short of total self-annihilation will win Israel approval.

yuval from tlv said...

itai


are you mad israel doesnt have nuclear weapons :)


Tjex - where are you from, BTW?

Itai said...

yuval from tlv,
everyone say what you say about Ahmedinejad but actually he might be a genious:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746601.html

Itai said...

yuval from tlv said...
itai
are you mad israel doesnt have nuclear weapons :)


Thought so :-( that damn Vanunu just lied to make us feel safe.

Joel said...

Doha, you don't understand -- I'm not doing anything to your country. Were it up to me, though, your country would be receiving far greater damage in the short run. (I think the precedent of WWII is on point: the Allies didn't hold off on bombing cities, not just target spots in cities.) It may be that you're receiving enough -- but if you Lebanese don't stop your self-infantilization, it's only going to get worse.

fga, do you really think that the Lebanese have nothing left to lose? Right now, the Lebanese have lost roughly .000003% of their population -- almost (although not quite) entirely Hezbollards and their human body armor; almost all of the rest among the Hezbollah-supporting Shiite population. The damage to Lebanese infrastructure is -- expensively -- repairable.

If you think that you've got left nothing to lose, you might want exchange notes with penpals in Dresden, Hama, or Carthage.

Doha said...

achillea,

i don't blog to be pitied.

3li- said...

How symbolic-Israeli bloggers fighting between themselves over a now-dead Lebanese blog site.

yuval from tlv said...

al-ghadabulsaati3


how's Iran?
or you might live in Syria?


are you enjoying to see the middle east burning?

do you feel your view of "Dar-El Islam" being threatend by democracy?

what happened? is it hard for you to hear the truth?
or it is hard for you to hear different oppinions?

this blog to your info is one of the most famous one, and yes!
israelies and lebanese can leave together virtualy in this blog and express their opinion..

does it hurt for you?

3li- said...

Yuval-and others...

Your arguments are worthless-a vat of bull-so full of ignorance, bravado, stupidities.

It is one thing to tell lies to others, but when you start believing your own lies-well, that's a different matter altogether-

In your unfathomable depravity and craveness, you have even convinced yourselves that you're actually saving us while you kill us-classic Orientalist thinking where "the savages must be saved from themselves since they don't know what is in their best interest."

So must you come to destroy our towns and cities, savage our infrastructure, murder our families, and our problem? It is not understanding the "anguish" you feel "having to do this to us."

Sometimes I feel like reaching out to you to console you for the grief we inflicted upon you turning you into killers of our own children. The detrimental effects this must have on your "humanity" will take years to heal. I will curse us and the images of our torn bodies for causing you such nightmares, for soiling your purity, for corrupting your Choseness.

Go plead your case to others. We have eyes and ears, and hearts and minds. Your vacuous words and hypocrytical sentiments fall on us as your mega-ton bombs fall on our country. You may be able to kill us, but our memories will stay and will not forget what you've done.

wiseman7777 said...

To all the jewish propaganda writers-
i can't believe how you are justifying this war by saying that this is good for Lebanon. what do YOU know about Lebanon? this kind of logic reminds me of the WWII logic that Nazis used against Jews. it didn't make sense, but they justified it.
you guys are so powerful now militarily that you are getting away with this, in addition to having friends in the US. this is pathetic, dispicable, and utterly unimaginable.
if you believe that greater good will come out of it, then you are definitely gone mad, as people. you have always been paranoid anyways, now you are being totally brutal and selfish.
If Israel was smart, they would get to Hezbollah in other means, surgically or by other means than militarily. Hezb is snake oil, they will keep evading the rockets which are falling on civilians instead.
i had some sympathy for israel and hate hezbollah. i still hate hezbollah and hate israel now too: so this is what you have done.
there are 20 million lebanese abroad lebanon and they growing united by the minute. that's the only outcome of this war.

abou al jamejem said...

I would like you guys to excuse me just a bit, especially those of you who don't speak arabic. Ayri bi Neseralla, Wayri bi Lahood el mastoul, w ari bi Michel Aon el khayen, dammarou el balad. Now I would like to translate what I just said. Fuck Neseralla, fuck Emil Lahood our Idiot president, and fuck Michel Aoun the former General who became pro Syrian. When the fuck Iran and Syria are going to leave us alone. Iran should be destroyed. All of you guys who support Huzeballa are bunch of idiots. Huseballa dosen't give a fuck about us, they care more about their masters in Iran and Syria. Hasan neseralla Ayri betrayed not only lebanon but his own people. thank you all.

Omer (israeli) said...

al-ghad,
I hope u guys return soon. The whole purpose of me looking at this blog, is to try to understand the other side.
I rather talk to you, even if you do hate me. I wan't to understand, so maybe there be a solution.

but it seems you are correct, at least for today. I'll try again tommorow.

Ilya (Russian) said...

Wiseman, I understand your feelings.
But tell me, what Israel could do else?

Should Olmert leave Lebanon and let hezbollah make israeli solders headless?

Should he start conversation with Hezbollah, showing Narallah (and all other terrorists) that taking hostages is a good way to solve problems?

Jews simply do not have a choice!

Nasrallah uses Lebanon people as shield, that is why Israel bombs kills civilians. I think everybody understands it.

Now about Nazi: why all islamic people always speaks about holocaust and Nazi, when discussion is about jews?

Did Olmert said, that he will kill Lebanese people, because Nazis killed jews? I never heard it.

There is a nightmare in Lebanon, small children are dying, bombs are killing civilians.. That's terrible. But it has nothing to do with holocaust.

You can read read here, if you want:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

It is about holocaust (not only jews, but gypsies and others)

Ilya (Russian) said...

2 abou al jamejem

By the way.. Some time ago I thought all Lebanese hates Israel and USA, likes Nasrallah, Iran, Bin-Laden and HAMAS, and wants to kill all jews..

But now I see most of Lebanese are good, intelligent people, who just became "hostages" in that evil war.. They are not guilty of Hezbollah's terror, but they suffer from Israeli bombs.. Oh... God save you..

Omer (israeli) said...

al-ghad,
Im against the war, and i think lirun is to (but not sure).

You have every right to hate us. Most posts here are insensitive, considering this a Lebanese blog.

I dont think you are a sagave, I talked to you the last following days. We are no better then you, you are no better then us. We are humans. Israel are just sick of being attacked evreytime a militant feels like it.

No excuses from me, war is ugly. And we might one day along endless war's feel the same destruction or evem worse. I don't count on arab mercifulness. I dont think we will be elimnated either, but i can only start to think how i would feel if it happened in my country (In some way, i.e bombing of north "occcupied palestine", i do feel thou).

abou al jamejem said...

Thanks Ilya, I would like to always say what I feel. I like Israel to kill these Huzeballas fuckers, but at the same time I don't see my country getting destroyed. But hopefull this is the last time we are going to see destruction in lebanon.

Omer (israeli) said...

abou al jamejem

"But hopefull this is the last time we are going to see destruction in lebanon"

Inshallah. Amen.

Pasdutout said...

Doha, All,

I don't get it:

Mr. Nasrullah said yesterday, that if Beirut is bombed: Tel Aviv will be bombed as well.

Doesn't he realize, that this is INVITING another bombing on beirut (which according to Doha's post and news reports is exactly what happened)?

At least: If I were Israeli, this is what I would do.

Lirun said...

omer yedidi

if you want to know what i stand for.. just read my blog dude..

i think i have made it quite clear..

but if it isnt i'll state it again now..

i am first and foremost pro peace..

however as an israeli.. watching my country enter a phase of tragedy - i do feel that i owe it dignified representation.. and if i can i try to explain its reasoning.. not because i am trying to convince anyone of anything.. but i do believe that there is a lot of mistrust where there shouldnt be on both sides.. and i do think that we are more similar minded and oriented than many think..

so i try to show that side of israel and i try to deliver its considerations and balance some of the often intense accusations when i think we are creating a distorted picture..

i think chas.. loli.. dany.. wintermotek.. seeker and a fair few others from both sides know that i want peace between us and i for me humanity is a very very important principle..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
i hope this is how i come across

Joel said...

Al (can I call you Al? I will anyway, so you might was well be gracious about it), you're still confused, and your behavior is still infantile. The problem you're dealing with isn't your feelings or Israelis' feelings, or the US's feelings, but it's one of reality.

Reality. Not feelngs. Make a note of that; you can look up the words later. As the Sphinx would say, "If you don't deal with reality, reality will deal with you."

You, like most Lebanese, though it was in your self-interest to make your peace with Hezbollah -- they could do whatever they wanted to Israel, as long as they left you alone.

And you were right. That was a great plan, really it was. To do otherwise would have required a lot of blood, sweat and tears -- some of it yours. To let Hezbollah run wild required other folks' blood, sweat and tears. To do that while pretending that talk and negotiation would muzzle the dogs worked really, really well.

There was only one problem with it: Israel didn't want to suffer both present and future depredations from the Hezbollards, even though it was convenient for you.

There was another problem with it: Hezbollah is an arm of the nutso Iranian strain of Shiism, which is engaged (along with nutso Sunnis) in a global war with the West.

Now, how well was your strategy of letting Hezbollah run wild looking in retrospect? And remembering that your feelings are exaggerating how much damage you're claiming has been done to Lebanon, how well do you think that'll work in the future?

Choose more wisely.

abou al jamejem said...

Response to Joel, you probably misunderstood what I said. If you have read my comments you know the HATERED I HAVE FOR Husballa. I WANT THE LEBANESE GOVERNEMENT TO TAKE CONTROL OF ITS TERRITORY. I MEAN ALL THESE STRONG WORDS I SAID AGAINST HUSBS WILL NOT SATISFY YOU!!!

Lirun said...

missiles hit hadera.. thats not very far away..

this aint pretty

wishing peace to us all and a safe night..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
i hate war

Loli said...

I think that a lot of Israeli blogs are rather insensitive. I invite those people to show some decency. As al-ghadabulsaati3 said, it is interesting to see how this so-called "Lebanese" site has been taken over by Israelis. I for one want peace, and am more than happy to have a rational and cordial discussion with you guys, but if some of you continue to talk to us aggressively, then there's no point. Your fear of being the victim of random attacks and terrorist acts is legitimate, so is our grief and our suffering.
I wish people here could go back to their senses.
Al-ghadabu, I know you are outraged by what's happening in Lebanon and some of the comments here, but maybe continuously accusing the other side won't help either.

Lirun said...

abou al.. i think he wasnt referring to you but rather to al-ghadabulsaati3

silverpearl1 said...

WHat a group of ill informed individuals. I wonder where you get your infomation from. How awful that in this day of age, we are so ignorant. In what way is Israel helping the Lebanese people? after this is over, there will be no lebanes people left to help. I am not a supporter of war, but who is the terrorist here. If you know something about reciprocity, then you would know that what HezbAllah is doing is within it's right. IF they are the ones that are defending Lebanon and the Lebanese people, then it is their right to fire missile into Israel. They don't have the airplanes capabilities like Israel does, so they blindly fire rockets. They are not seeing what target they are hitting. Which is morally and ethically wrong. But now, look at the other side, how many time can Israel go on TV and apologize for bombing UN base, for Qana masacres, for red cross van... Are these not terrorists acts. They have the great military capabilities that they can easily see their targets, so how can such mistakes happen. Yes, it is a war and horrific things will happen during wars, but you just cannot let your own prejudice and nationality make you blinded by what is going on. Israel did have a right to defend itself in the begining, but enough already, did they teach HezbAllah a lesson, hell no. HezbAllah will eventually be beaten, and this is not their war due to their unlimited capabilities, but it will never be destroyed. What do you think of all the people left behind, the ones who lost homes, fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers and the list goes on, don't you think that these are potential HezbAllah? In my eyes HezbAllah already won. 23 days and still going. Israel has never lasted in a war that long. THe war of 1967 took 6 days. So my advise to all you commenting here, review the facts before you speak. Israel is not an innocent victim that it finally had it and now ready for action. If anyone targets civilians, it is the Israeli government. Oh, I forgot to say to those Lebanese people, don't forget to thank Israel for dropping Leaflets into Northern Beirut warning you "please leave we don't want to hurt". Thank them very much. After all, they destroyed your bridges and anyway you have out, but yet they sent you leaflets. SO the whole word can say Israel gave you a fair warning. Well thank you very Israel. We will wait to see what next you will do to help those lebanese people that you so loyally said have nothing against them.

Lirun said...

loli - we have to take this opportunity to make those people change their tact.. this is fertile ground to harvest good minds away from agression..

think porters model.. turning threats into opportunities :)

Loli said...

Silver...
Pls spare us this crap about HA defending our people. Do ideology and power mean anything to you?
HA needs to be disarmed, period. They have no business acting out on their whim and whatever irresponsible plan they had.

yuval from tlv said...

pasdutout


maybe you're not getting it clear

HB wants Lebanon to be bombed
this way they gain more supports by bitter brain washed (by El Manar) people..

this way the Leb' gov' is being weeker, and it's easier for Syria and Iran to take back control..

and they absolutly gives a fuck about all of you Lebanese..
they didn't asked you or your parliament weather do go for an attack against Israel, they don't give a SHIT about your demorcacy, and they're a proxy of Syria..

so you need to be so blind and so brain washed in order to support them..

and there's a big diference between supporting Israel, and - not to support HB.

but still they call you traitors..

abou al jamejem said...

pHuzeballa have their own agenda. I am not supporting Israel, but the destruction of lebanon should be blamed on Huzballa. to your knowledge Israel did warn the people who live in the southern suburb of beirut before they striked too. Neseralla el ayr took the decision to engage Lebanon in a destruction war. As I said before and I would like to repeat it, Neserallah should be fucking killed for his action. this guy is a jerk, with his stupid beard. This guy is not a cheikh this guy is crimminal, and everyone who support huseballa is supporting the destruction of lebanon.

Loli said...

Lirun,
I do what I can to calm my compatriots down, and perhaps you should do the same about your people. There is so much prejudice on both sides, a sign of utter suffering. But ultimately, I have no doubt all of us want the same thing: peace and mutual respect. Some of us are just communicating all the wrong ideas and values, and it's making things worse.

abou al jamejem said...

Execuse me guys again for a seond roun of bad words for husballa and his supporters in arabic. Lak ayri bi tarbouchou la neseralla, w ayri bi lahood el zaber, w ayri bi Michel aoun el khayen, w ayri bi souriya, w ayri bi iran , w ari bi kil wehed bese3doun. Just translating: Fuck Neseralla's hat, Fuck the president of lebanon because he is an idiot, Fuck Michel aoun, Fuck Syria, Fuck Iran, and Fuck everyone who support them. Did I say fuck neseralla. please help if I forget anyone of those war loving fuckers.

yuval from tlv said...

loli - you couldn't be more right..

sometimes it makes me angry to see that people blame israel for everything

i do understand your anger against israel, i didn't say anything about it..
iwould be angry if my country had been bombed by someone ( and it did, by HB )...

but what makes me shocked is to see people saying that HB is their saviours, and defend them..
abviously HB as i view it doesn't care for Lebanon neither to the Lebanese democracy..
due to be a proxy of Syria they obviously wants Lebanon to be back under Syrian control.. and they hold a radical view for life in which israel should be destroyed and there will be no negotiation for peace with israel, plus they're willing to die in order to atchieve that..

it's just horrible.. and i'm shocked time and time again when i hear people calling them their saviours..

yuval from tlv said...

surely i don't think my country is a white angel getting bitted..

we made our mistakes in the past,
we've also learned not to do so again..

but i see no justification for HB recent attack on Israel...

GSH - Observer said...

yuval;
you seem to get it:
this way the Leb' gov' is being weeker, and it's easier for Syria and Iran to take back control..


in a way don't you think by not putting an end to the destruction in Lebanon teh IDF is doing those trio a big favor ???

our Government is getting weeker everyday, while teh trio are getting stronger.

you are NOT helping us (non HA supporters) a bit, instead your making us weeker and weeker every day you continue the assult.

I believe Israel had made its point loud and clear, what are you trying to achieve now ????
HA destruction???? i wish, but it simply WON'T happen.

you have no idea how much i oppose radicals - wherever , whoever they are - I would like them to be whiped out.

These people are cancer, and Israel is applying Radio Thearapy to remove them, but unless you remove this cancer 100% (which failed) you'll only leave a weeker body for the cancer to spread stronger then ever.

I hope you get my message...

silverpearl1 said...

abou al jamejem,
no one is blaming anyone. Both HezbAllah and Israel has their own reasons for doing whatever. IF they warned people in Southern Beirut, the poorest population of Lebanon, where will they go. Leaflets or no Leaflet my friend, this is a public show so people, just like you now, can say look, we warned but they stayed.

GSH - Observer said...

aboul al jamejem;

Tawwel Balak man...
stop going "Zahlawi", let's not offend anyone with vulgarity.

by the way...are you in Leb. or the USA ???

Itai said...

wiseman7777 said..."this kind of logic reminds me of the WWII logic that Nazis used against Jews."

Does it really? Can you explain yourself? Or maybe all the different opinins expressed by Israelis here are Nazis? Maybe all the Israelis think like Nazis? It's interesting that first thing that goes to wiseman7777 head when he thinks about the conflict between Israel and Lebanon is the example of absolute evil, the Nazis. And he immediately ofcourse makes the analogy between the Nazis and Israelis.

Why did he choose the Nazis?
There are numerous other examples of wars, debates, conflicts, propaganda battles. But he chose the Nazis. What was he trying to say or hint and why?

Who are you wiseman7777? Where are you from? Where were your parents or their parents during 1939-1945?

Do you feel guilty about your ancestors history? Were they firing the ovens themselves? making glasses out of teeth? Soaps out of human fat? Driving trains with cattle wagons stuffed with people to death camps? Were they the guys tatooing numbers on other human's hands? Maybe they just cheered? Looked the other way? Maybe they just quietly told jokes about "how all the Jews suddenly disappeared"? Did you bother to find out? Maybe they weren't in Germany at all? But they were in Europe, right?

Or maybe you aren't an antisemite, maybe you are just an idiot who has no ideas who the Nazis were.

yuval from tlv said...

gsh observer


yeh i know that, i admitted that previously..

we know we're doing HB a "faviour"..
the truth is as hard as it maybe - this is a "muscle strech" for Tehran..
i guess you've heard them - wipping out Israel, destroying the Zionists etc..
they anxious to get into a war with Israel but only after they'll get nuclear weapon.. i think the real aim is to show Tehran that we're not affraid of them..

also the aim was to destroy HB long range missiles arsanels.. and to collect a payment from them..

therefor Israel is willing to go to a cease-fire next weak, according to the UN resolution that will come on sunday or monday..

we also want an armed UN forced to take over southern Lebanon in order to prevent HB to attack from there..
do you know how Tehran & HB responded??
they immidiately rejected it..
but they'll have no other option after the UN security counsle on- going resolution..

again i tell you this war will probably end by next week..

Chris from lebanon said...

Too late now for us lebanese trying to make sense out of things we created. One cannot carry a cancerous tumor in his body and hoping by some divine miracle it will disappear all by its self. Thats what we've been doing with Hezbollah pretending they don't exist and hoping that our weak and ailing government will make them disarm. Its time that all peace loving lebanese answers Israel's wake up call and once in for all destroy Hezbollah from its roots so we can rebuild our country, yet again, only this time on solid ground and national unity. Don't you see, we've been doing more of the same for the last 30 years and it got us to destroy our country 3 times already. The hell with the arab causes, hell with the palestinian cause, hell with syria and iran..lets all make something different for a change. At least we owe it to all the innocents deaths from both sides of the border. Israel, i hope you succeed and i hope one day we all live in a lasting and fruitefyl peace.

GSH - Observer said...

itai;

I don't think anyone think of the Nazis other then pure Evil...
even us.

I would those who don't know to know the following:
according to the Nazist
the jews where at the bottom of humanity, above the jews came black people, above which came the Arabs....
if the Nazist reached us we would've sufferd the same like the jews....we were lucky.

So Itai....don't worry about the Nazi deal...don't bother...

GSH - Observer said...

yuval;

I would be surprised if Iran agree...and by the way who the hell they think they are to agree or reject????
who gave them or HA teh authority to speak on behalf of our destryed country ???

Iran want's to destroy Israel... i think its just rethoric...i wouldn't worry about it...even if they have nuclear power...then what....are they going to drop on teh Israelis and the Palestinias who live close to them ???

on the other hand ...yes, why not they'll do it....
look at Lebanon, they didn't give a crap about us......why would they give a crap about the Palestinians ?

silverpearl1 said...

so Israel is teaching Tehran a lesson by victimized Lebanon and the Lebanese Civilians.

yuval from tlv said...

that's the truth
they don't give a fuck about their own people..

who would fight a war of others, if their own people are unemployed, low educated, and the health system is extremely poor?

the fact is that they feel the ground shacking under their legs..

after Afghanistan & Iraq, they feel they're the next to come when they have every year a larger and more extreme massive demonstrations against their gov.

because they're failing & because they know that the US & the EU would like to see them out, they're looking for nuclear weapon.. this way they promiss their gov. many more years of control..

but don't you mistake my friend.. who history had taught us in the hardest way that who threatns to eliminate you, will evantualy try to..

therefor Israel & US policy doesn't concerns to the Lebanese-Israeli crisis that much..

they concers about the Iranian issue far more..

HB is a baby compering to the IDF, they're just annoying, and maybe the israeli reaction in Lebanon was too heavy.. but what's on the empires mind is not Lebanese, palastinian issue..
it's Iran..

Chris from lebanon said...

to silverpearl1
Hezbollah don't give a damn about lebanon and the last thing it has was the right to ignite this war. Hezbollah does not represent the lebanese people and had no right whats so ever to attack another nation. You are acting exactly like the person i described in my comment a couple of lines above and that attitude need to be changed

yuval from tlv said...

silverpearl1



as an israeli i believe it's unfotunate but truth..

you are the victims of an on-going occupation by Syria who's supported by Iran..

don't you see?
they give a little about the innocents.. but they do so much for themselfs..

therefor israel is willing to stop this war next week, according to the on-going UN resolution..

it was all over the israeli news..

but we wish for one and important thing - UN armed force in southern Lebanon..

JBFricks said...

I know this is a difficult time for everyone in Lebanon, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.

This conflict will end soon, and Lebanon will be left with a shattered economy and infrastructure. What do you think Lebanese expats and sympathetic people in the west could do to help, so that people in Lebanon are not left dependent upon either Hezbollah or on endless (and potentially corrupt) UN aid systems? There must be something that individuals can do to promote freedom and support the individuals of Lebanon as they rebuild.

silverpearl1 said...

chris from lebanon,
First of all what you just said should be a reason for you to see what Israel is doing. YOu said Hezbollah doesn't represent Lebanon, so why is Israel attacking the entire Lebanon now. What does Northern part of Beirut has to do with Hezbollah. Israel could claim and say that they are using these roads to carry weapons to Hezbollah, just like the army car was carrying a Hezbollah leader? I am not saying that Hezbollah gives a damn about Lebanon, never did I alude to that in my comments. My whole comment is about Israel, if their fight is only with Hezbollah, why destroy infrastructure, bridges, broadcast stations, satellite stations, should I go on, are you blind, you are living there you should tell me. YOu keep saying that Hezbollah doesn't represent the Lebanese, but why in the hell are the lebanese been attacked and killed, when are you going to wake up. Do you think that Israel give a shit about the Lebanese people as well?

Chris from lebanon said...

I hope the war will continue until Hezbollah is completely disarm or destroyed. Don't you all see that we've been thru this before, we go a cease fire and then a couple of years down the road it started again. I'm telling you, next time it will be nukes and i disagree with someone claiming that iran won't use them. We need to finish this task in lebanon. Next round will be syria. And then people will come to the table.

Loli said...

yuval from tlv
I am shocked too to see how some people defend with passion HA. HA's militants may be fighting for Lebanon with all their hearts, but HA as a leadership doesn't care about the good of Lebanon. Unfortunately, the militants and lots of civilians are blinded by the party's good social work, Nasralla's speeches, their religious beliefs, and increasingly their hatred for the US and Israel, hatred fueled by the American poor policy in the Middle East, and Israel's multiple injustices inflicted on the Palestinians.
So there is wrong on both sides. I hope you see it.

silverpearl1 said...

Yuval from Tla.

you are very wise in your words, and unlike others in this website, which unfortunately I am one of them, you are not hostile. I do wish and pray that the fighting will stop soon. I do hope that Israel will end this war on Lebanon. A war that should have not escalated. Lebanon is a victim, it is a ball field and perhaps Iran or Syria is the referree, that I will have my own opinion on that subject. I don't want to see bombs fall on Lebanon or Israel, but this brutal attack and killing so blindly doesn't leave a good taste in anyone's mouth. IT makes the most peaceful person want retaliation. It is ashame to say, but the first question that is asked now is who killed who today. It should not be like that. But to destroy Hezbollah is not going to happen. This is creating more future Hezbollah. This whole crisis in fact, you mark my words, will be a main point that will be used by hezbollah and many supports as to why they should not disarm.

GSH - Observer said...

chris;
the Lebases should now by now that one is their friend.

The USA promissed to support our
Gov to get rid of Syria and its allies....only to turn their back on us when things went in an untecepated way.
the EU? France? where are they?
The Arabs? don;t let me get started on the arabs...

We should realize by now - after 30 years as you said - that our only Friend is our own Country.
Everybody is playing us...
unfortunatly 90% of the Lebanses still counts on others.

unless we understans the our unity is teh ONLY WAY to be....Lebanon will be destroyed again and again and again.

What have we learnt in the past 30 years ? nothing..nothing at all.

we need to rid ourselves from all the sects and religions ...from teh arabs and Islam and Christianity and realize that we can only be Lebanese..nothing else.

yuval from tlv said...

silverpearl1


Israel does gives a shit about Lebanese!!!

think again - if HB would fire at american cities.. do you think something in lebanon would still be standing??

do you think that the number of casualties will be 700?
maybe 70,000...

israel could simply Nepalm southern Lebanon and end this firing.. but we chose not to, and sent divisions of soliders to go home by home to look for HB fighters..

show me one nation who would risk it's soliders just to prevent innocents death..



and about the bridges - HB uses it..

T.V. station - belong to El-Manar propoganda station

sattelite - El-Manar broud casted through it..


i'm not saying we've been gentel..

but we were'nt brutal as US or EU in their wars..

Chris from lebanon said...

When you destroy a cancerous tumor, the process makes your immune system weaker. Thats what needs to be done with the HEZB. because like rats they had all over the country. And about beirut and the rest, let us succed and we will build it again only this time for good.

silverpearl1 said...

chris from lebanon, who knows who is hezbollah is in lebanon? so how can you wish that all hezbolla will be destroyed when you really cannot directly point at someone that they are Hezbollah. What you are wishing is the destruction of all lebanese men who could potentially be hezbollah. I don't support you there my friend. You will never destroy Hezbollah because this is just the start of their strengths and recruits.

Chris from lebanon said...

Oh yes. We lebanese know who and where is hezbollah. Once they are beaten and disarmed, beleive me they will rejoin the system. You'll see.

GSH - Observer said...

Correct;

You can't destroy them...they are every where, and thanks to the latest war and the migration of the million southerns now they are more spread then ever...

let's be more realistic and stick to desarming them....

Killing a Radical makes him stronger (strange mentality but true)

yuval from tlv said...

loli -

believe me i see both sides..
i don't support occupation..

and what i'm most sad is that the plan to with draw from the west bank is so dead now..

Olmert had tried to mention it in one of his speeches, and the comments were so hostile by the people, and all parties in the parliament - that i can truely say - HB gave the PL another many years of occupation..

but the case in Lebanon is different HB as a proxy of Syria & Iran should be bitted ruthlessly just to show Iran that we're not affraid to suffer or to respond..

that the whole case.. not more than that..
if the UN resolution will call an immidiate UN arm force to take control over southern Lebanon, Israel will immidiately ceaze-fire and make a way for those forces..



Silverpearl1-

it's so unfortunate but true..
but don't worrie - in a few years from now, i guess the Iranian gov. will be taken out and all the funds for Syria & HB will be stopped..
and a new wave of democracy will reach the entire middle east..

Chris from lebanon said...

If they pursue a major reform of the lebanese constitution, then they need to do it democraticly. They don't need to stage this war to show their strength. Majority of us are fed up of hearing their frustration and arrogance. Time to turn the clock wisely.

MalcolmX said...

Hezbollah: Israelis' SCAPEGOAT.
Occupy a country, torture its citizens and in the end you face resistance.In Israel’s case it was Hezbollah, and in the end Hezbollah ran Israel out of Lebanon, which is why a lot of Lebanese regard Hezbollah not as terrorists but as courageous liberators. The years roll by and Israel does its successful best to destroy all possibility of a viable two-state solution. It builds illegal settlements. It chops up Palestine with Jews-only roads. It collars all the water. It cordons off Jerusalem. It steals even more land by bisecting Palestinian territory with its “fence”. Anyone trying to organize resistance gets jailed, tortured, or blown up. Sick of their terrible trials, Palestinians elect Hamas, whose leaders make it perfectly clear that they are ready to deal on the basis of the old two-state solution, which of course is the one thing Israel cannot endure. Israel doesn’t want any “peaceful solution” that gives the Palestinians anything more than a few trashed out acres surrounded with barbed wire and tanks, between the Israeli settlements whose goons can murder them pretty much at will.
You can say that Israel brought Hezbollah into the world. You can prove it too, though this too involves another frightening excursion into history. This time we have to go far, almost unimaginably far, back into history. Back to 1982, before the dinosaurs, before CNN, before Fox TV, before O’Reilly and Limbaugh. But not before the neo-cons who at that time had already crawled from the primal slime and were doing exactly what they are doing now: advising an American president to give Israel the green light to “solve its security problems” by destroying Lebanon. In 1982 Israel had a problem. Yasir Arafat, headquartered in Beirut, was making ready to announce that the PLO was prepared to sit down with Israel and embark on peaceful, good faith negotiations towards a two-state solution. Israel didn’t want a two-state solution, which meant — if UN resolutions were to be taken seriously — a Palestinian state right next door, with water, and contiguous territory. So Israel decided to chase the PLO right out of Lebanon. It announced that the Palestinian fighters had broken the year-long cease-fire by lobbing some shells into northern Israel. Palestinians had done nothing of the sort. I remember this very well, because Brian Urquhart, at that time assistant secretary general of the United Nations, in charge of UN observers on Israel’s northern border, invited me to his office on the 38th floor of the UN hq in mid-Manhattan and showed me all the current reports from the zone. For over a year there’d been no shelling from north of the border. Israel was lying. With or without a pretext Israel wanted to invade Lebanon. So it did, and rolled up to Beirut. It shelled Lebanese towns and villages and bombed them from the air. Sharon’s forces killed maybe 20,000 people, and let Lebanese Christians slaughter hundreds of Palestinian refugees in the camps of Sabra and Chatilla. The killing got so bad that even Ronald Reagan awoke from his slumbers and called Tel Aviv to tell Israel to stop. Sharon gave the White House the finger by bombing Beirut at the precise times — 2.42 and 3.38 — of two UN resolutions calling for a peaceful settlement on the matter of Palestine. When the dust settled over the rubble, Israel bunkered down several miles inside Lebanese sovereign territory, which it illegally occupied, in defiance of all UN resolutions, for years, supervising a brutal local militia and running its own version of Abu Graibh, the torture center at the prison of Al-Khiam.

silverpearl1 said...

yuval from tlv.
never the less, plenty of innocent have been killed. My friend, believe me the number is more than 700. Wait until the fire is ceased and the rubble has been removed. That number will escalate to the triple digit. I think that it is good you are believing that your country is doing well in your eyes. Maybe you are right, maybe Israel is really this peace loving nation that is trying to live and let live. Maybe we were just fed lies and told to hate Israel at a young age, that Israel was the devil. Maybe all the lives that were taken by Israel bullets, the towns that were departed, when I was a child growing in Southern Lebanon were a figment of my imagination. Maybe I am just someone who lived in 1982 another another Israel attack. I am not defending Hezbollah, I don't think anyone should bear arms except the army. The only people who lost in this battle is the lebanese and Israeli civilians. Someone earlier wrote that a woman was killed in her house infront of her children, think of those children, maybe they will learn to forgive and forget, and maybe they will grow to hate Hezbollah and make it their mission to destroy them. THe same thing is happening in Lebanon now. The same thing happened in 1982, many lebanese children witnessed these things, these are your hezbollah today.

yuval from tlv said...

gsh observer -


that's what happened is Israel

the israeli majority are secular, they don't believe in god..

the israeli majority is no longer zionist - that idea is dead..

we are patriots for our nation.. and we relay on no other nation to come to our help..
well maybe the US :)

but what you're saying is true, but you cant do it if you have an oil wealthy nation like Iran supporting extremers..

Itai said...

JBFricks I think that if Israel and Lebanon sign a peace treaty then Lebanon can become an important ally of the Americans.
American forigen aid for its allies is very generous.
Egypt, for example, recieves about 3 Billion $ a year aid from America since it made peace with Israel. That was agreed upon in the cold war days, but still.

I think that could be a good move for Lebanon, the U.S. and the whole world actually. But they have to come to terms with their internal secterian issues first.

And don't exeggerate as for the "shattered" part. Lebanon lost this tourist season and Seniora said last week that the estimated damages to infrastructure and buildings was 2.1 Billion $, let's not go overboard.
You know the CNN effect. You see hours of footage filmed from different cameras in the same demolished block and you get the impression that Beirut looks like Dresden Nagasaki in 1945. Beirut is still a beuatiful city and pretty much in tact, right?
The shiaite refugees can go back south the economy will step out of its paralysis. I hope Lebanon will be back on its feet in no time.

GSH - Observer said...

loli, yuval;
We have to try to do it...do we have any other choise?

Do you really have Jews-only roads ?

Chris from lebanon said...

Malcolmx
Please, the last thing we need in lebanon is to portray palestinians as angels.

We welcomed them back in the early 70's and they were so grateful, they tried to over turn the government and overrun the lebanese people.
Good thing in 1982, we put arafat on a school bus and sent him COD to Syria.

So please, no lecture over palestianians. The hell with their cause, the arab cause, Syria and Iran.

We have enough on our plate..OK

yuval from tlv said...

silverpearl1 -


i know you are right - that's why i said israel made it mistakes in the past and not willing to do it again

that's why we talk about a ceaze fire next week.. we really really don't want another 82 war..

i'm really sorry the way things had been going in the middle east..

once israel had it's zionist view of colonizing areas it occupies..

but it had changed dramaticly!!

now people talk freely about how stupid we were, and that we need to with-draw from the west bank too.. but thanks to HB we are too afraid that another terror group will take over the wesk bank and we'll have HB alike, threatning TLV..

Lirun said...

i wrote about the children..

i think sometimes forgiveness takes time.. but the healing process can co-exist wih peace..

i dont wish any harm to the germans or austrians even though 2 generations later i still havent forgiven..

and yet i would still never inflict harm on anyone or assault anyone.. i hat their history but i dont feel anyting specific against them as people..

and i pray that one day when i have kids they do not carry my historical and emotional baggage..

i pray the same for the children of the lady who was killed up north today..

feeling a need to take this opportunity to give a vote of confidence to lebanon..

just finished chatting to a lebanese friend of mine on msn.. we have promised eachother to visit with our foreign passports when the conflict ends.. i pray for a time soon that we can visit on our israeli and lebanses passports..

i dont care who's right and who's wrong.. i want peace with my lebanses cousins..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
its achievable.. lets bring it

yuval from tlv said...

gsh - observer



what do you mean by "jews only roads"? =0

Lirun said...

yuval you are wrong.. zionism is not dead at all..

6000 families came to israel last week to live here.. these were not refugees.. these were tear bearing jews who for zionistic reasons came home..

i work 60 hour weeks - not because i have to but because i know that every hour i put in forwards my country and benefits thousands of people with trade and development..

there are many people with a deep love for our country and i am very disturbed by your view..

its plainly wrong

loving my country and wanting peace go hand in hand for me

GSH - Observer said...

malcomex said you have "jews only" roads, and i heard the same thing from a US Citizen (full US not arabic descendent)

is it true that you have reoads or highways that only jews can use ?

Chris from lebanon said...

Yuval
You are wrong in your assesment. If you have a premature cease fire this chaos will repeat itself in 2 or 3 years. Europeans can't live up to the task of disarming HEZB. Lebanese Govt. not strong yet. You need to advance up to the litani river so they have less place to move. The crisis will be so hard on us lebanese that will will finish the job on Hezb then.

yuval from tlv said...

lirun you missed my point


i said the zionizm is dead because we don't want to take more lands and build houses there..

i said we are now patriots for our nation..
the 6000 families migrated to support israel and it's existence..

not to live the fundanetal jewish issue of the bible times when king David had the jewish nation streching from Iraq to eghypt..

we have a reformed zionizm actualy..

Lirun said...

gsh - its not accurate.. in the territories there are roads (as i understand it) that are called bypass roads that allow you to traverse areas without entering arab towns..

a jewish guy had problems with his car this week and pulled into an arab town for some assistance.. they shot him and threw him in his car - drove him a bt out of the war and burned him in his trunk..

the bypass roads have more supervision so you can cross areas safely but arabs use these roads too

i would probably go so far as to say that there are arab only roads moreso than jew only roads..

but in either case.. there is something starkly grotesque about our relationship with our palestinian neighbours.. regarless of fault.. it does make me a very ashamed..

Lirun said...

ok dude.. as long as you are aware that zionism is evolving into a new phase and certainly is NOT dying..

we now have a country - its about securing it.. not about establishing it..

i agree..

yuval from tlv said...

gsh observer -


you're making me luagh..

we're not an afrethide country we have arab parliament members, we give total freedome for out israeli arab citizens, infact i have some arab friend who i sit with in Jaffa and smoke Nargilla with :)
and i must mention that the eghyptian tabacco is excelent :)


we're truely democratic.. we don't hurt arabs or denys them..
infact we give them great freedome, much more then the arab nations will give them..

yuval from tlv said...

lirun -

you ment the areas where palastinian authority is..

not inside Israel itself..

Lirun said...

thats right

yuval from tlv said...

o.k. i must go now..

i wish you all peace and health..

and remember don't loose faith..

by next weekend i'm sure it'll all be changed..

Omer (israeli) said...

silverpearl1,
I do belive there were alot of F*ck ups (intelligence wise), and alot of innocent people got hurt.

But targeting civilians really isn't the policy. I also belive that you are correct when you say its not over. HEZ will rebuild, with iranian money, and be stronger then ever. Probebly even advance some of its weaponry. They go low gear for a while, help rebuild (with the money they get), and everybody likes them again (after all, he only hits us nasty jews). Then when everything is calm, they attack again (Nasrallah said 25,Nov,2005 "Its our natural right to kidnap Israeli soldiers"). Then again, a wave of vilonace, UN descision, Blah Blah Blah.

Dam, I'm so pasimistic.

GSH - Observer said...

Guys;
I have a soluition for you.
think about it:

the palestenians want their land back (all of it)...so do you.

it seems to me if you and the palestinians end up in One state...both of you will get what you want.

it will take some time for all of you to get used to each other...but eveybody will have his land...all of it

silverpearl1 said...

lirium

I share your hopes that we can easily travel back and forth between the two countries. I think that will truly be a dream come true. I remember going to tel aviv years ago and loving it. I still remember the name of the hotel at the time was Imperial hotel. I do wish peace and good health for all. I hope that next time I will sign on this site, this crisis will be over and our major discussion will be about rebuilding the nations and not relieve this nightmare inflicted on all

Joel said...

irun said...
abou al.. i think he wasnt referring to you but rather to al-ghadabulsaati3


Yup.

Itai said...

GSH - Observer said...
"loli, yuval;
We have to try to do it...do we have any other choise?
Do you really have Jews-only roads ?"

NO!
Lirun described their function well and there are bypasses like these only in the west bank.
If we'll have peace you can drive to Israel with your car and Lebanese passport and drive them all day long. Arab Israelis also use them, so you can call them "Israelis and Tourists only Roads" if you want.
It's regretful that this arrangement exists anyhow but it was implemented only after the massive terror attacks started and Israelis couldn't travel the public roads anymore.

GSH - Observer said...

lirun;

don't be ashamed of the relation between you and the Pal. unless you have somthing to do with it,or unless you are not trying to make things better.

seeker said...

GSH - Observer,
Well, I don't think Israelis want all the land,
it's just land, we just want a country and peacefull if possible
with happny smiling neighbours if I am at it.

About your plan however,
Great plan (No cynicism)
But it needs trust
I think that trust can happen but unfortuantely not in my life time
it will take several generations to heal the wrongs done the last 100 years or so

Lirun said...

good night
bonne nuit
לילה טוב
(layla tov)
salamat malam
bonna notte


im off to bed.. anyone care to say gnight in arabic or any other language?


wishing you all a peaceful sleep my friends

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
we're all the same ;)

seeker said...

goeie nacht
bounas noches

Peace and quite to all,

silverpearl1 said...

omer,

it is so funny you mention that. I came across a cd for hezbollah, and i am not sure where or how i got. it must have been during my last trip to lebanon and a guy sold me bunch of CD. Those exact words were repeated on the CD, "if we want to get our prisoners back, we must kidnap Israel soldiers, it is our right to kidnap Israel soldier". I wish that this was a war with no casualty, face to face, let the innocent be away from it all. No one deserves to have their lives destroyed within months. I look at my calender now as I am writing this and it is filled until January 15,2007 with coming events, meetings, schedules and so forth. I have a trip to Lebanon on it October 22 (I hope that his might still happen). I cannot help but think of all those innocent victims and how many of thems had to do list. I know that it is a price of war and someone has to pay for it, but at what expense. Enough already, I can't believe that i am actually going to say this, but can't we just get along for once in this lifetime, and sit and talk. There has to be cease fire in order to talk. Chris from Lebanon, my last comment is to you before I go tend to my patients, you say that Syria and Iran are using Hezbollah, you are then using Israel my friend, by urging no cease fire, continue this until all Hez has been destroyed, you are no different than the syrian and Iranian governement. I am scared of people like you, 20 something. You are the future of lebanon. You know that war cannot spare all lives, people will be killed, sure we will rebuild and this time for good, but if your population is dwindling, is it worth rebuilding. Or are the lives that are been destroyed in the SOuthern part not worthy, if there has to be victims, then let them be the victims. Are you in a safe area now that hasn't witnessed the air raids? Will you be saying this tomorrow if Israel was to strike where, and hopefully not, but close to where you are now. You need to back cease of fire just to spare the innocent. IF you want to disarm Hez, then the government will do that. Syad Nasrallah claims that his fight is for Lebanon, for true freedom for Lebanon and as long as some part of LEbanon are still occupied, then Lebanon is free. IF he is willing to risk all those lives for such a cause, then let's cease fire, have negotiations, draw the plans and then follow it from there. Nasrallah is a very very smart and wise man. Let's give the Hez this chance. Yes they might emerge as hero to some, but not to others. All light will be shed on this subject once there is cease fire, then we can judge and put fingers and blame. For now, we should all be united on cease fire. Good luck and best of luck to all. To those that I have offended I apologize, it is the nature of this brutal thing we call life and what it teaches us in general and me personally.

Loli said...

Seeker,
You have a point regarding the time needed for healing, but looking at Jordan and Egypt's examples, I think there may be hope.

Lirun,
Buona notte (not bonna ;0)
Buenas noches
Layla sa3iida

We should all work towards peace.

seeker said...

Loli,
I fully agree hope is always there, to live is to hope.

Be safe

Omer (israeli) said...

I think most israeli would agree to give "sheba farms" and exchange prisinors for peace.
But peace only with the Lebanese goverment when they have no control of their own borders is useless. And as you, may have, or have not discovered that HEZ will attack again, when it suits it right.

They may take care of social problems, but they are far most a "Resistance group", armed and ready. There social scheme, business, banks are all secondary to the ideology .And it thrives on war my friend. They will never disarm peacfuly, and they will continue to practice there dubious "natural rights" all right.
And i do have the impression the Hassan is content with anything less then whole israel (He doesn't have the power right now). You see HEZ say's it out loud, And whats funny is that most common rethoric agaist evil "zionists" is that we belive our blood is worth more. When Dear Hassan doesnt give shit about any blood at all.

But thats the sad part about this. Nasrallah will continue to do what he does best. We are the "Total Evil" in the eye's of the arab world. While not even blinking on sudan, where true genocide is taking place in the name of Allah.

Wait, i'm not trying to start a fight, just prove a point. We are easy "Evils", and of course the occupation doesn't help, but truth is we represent more then anything "The total otherness".
And its same for the Israeli side aswell. We see 14 yr old boys blow up in sucide attacks...
What were Israeli's suppose to think?

See what i mean? Truth is we are not that diffrent. But we don't give a human figure to our enemys: Terroists, Zionists, killers, satan, Nazi etc...

MalcolmX said...

What the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas. Both are national resistance movements. What happens now in Lebanon kinda reflects what happens in Palestine. Israel uses violence as an option to solve its problems.Unfortunately, most of the victims of such violence are Lebanese and palestinians civilians. therefore, Israel's violent and barbarous actions led to the eruption of movements like Hezbollah and Hamas.
Got it?..ChrisFL

Omer (israeli) said...

malcomx,
"Israel's violent and barbarous actions led to the eruption of movements like Hezbollah and Hamas. "
let me praphrase this:

movements like Hezbollah and Hamas violent and barbarous actions led to the eruption of countrys like Israel

Did you expect israel to do nothing when after withdarwing 100% of Gaza that firing rockets for over year could be tolrated, well you guessed right. But the kidnap of the soldier and the violent twist, gave israel legtimicy. The PL's are over playing the violance card, starting somewhere in 2000.

3500 Israeli killed in terroist attack uptill now. what you expect us to do? wait and get murdered? in the last 2 weeks, 4 sucide bombers were caught on route. If they would have made it they would have killed 80-120 people. That almost all the PL's killed (including militants) since the Gaza incrusion. There is alot you dont see form there my friend.
I do wish the occupation will end.

Itai said...

GSH - Observer, are you serious?
Israel is the state of the Jewish people, minorities are equal.

Like the English in England,the Swedish in Sweden etc'

We can go into the issue of what national identity is by examining different aspects of every nation on this planet (Language, Culture, Religion, Food etc') but it's going to be a long debate.

There are 20 different states in the Arab league, for example, and yet you don't see them all end up in one state. When you examine it further you realize that Jordanians and Palestinians, for example, have practically identical national attributes (Language, Culture, Religion etc'). You might even say they are one nation so maybe the solution lays in that direction. I don't know. But the Arabs national identity is another issue by itself and like we saw Arabs don't always get along so well among themselves (Even when the Jews are not involved)

The bottom line is that most of the world is currently comprised of nation states. I'm not sure it's a great system but that's how it is. When the rest of the world will change this system and we'll see it's safe we'll reconsider.
The last time we got caught without a state exactly when we needed one was very painful.

You can say you're all just people why put labels, define, analyze and fence and you're probably right. So like I said when the rest of the world unites, we'll join. Untill then we need a solution for two tribes who are slaughtering each other for almost a hundred years now.

1earth said...

"What the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas. Both are national resistance movements."

Except there is no occupation of Lebanon for Hezbollah to resist, and Hamas wants to destroy Israel, not resist the occupation of the West Bank. Try again?

"Israel uses violence as an option to solve its problems."

And Hezbollah killed those 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2 with roses and hugs?

"Unfortunately, most of the victims of such violence are Lebanese and palestinians civilians."

It's not a bad thing all together. Dead Lebanese & dead palestinians = less terrorists. Less America haters. Terrorist entities like Lebanon now understand there is a heavy price to pay for using violence against Israel.

Got it?

Omer (israeli) said...

1earth,
Who are you theatning? HEZ???

Lebnese Liona said...

TO my isreali friends,

Look at what your own IDF experts are saying about HB!!!

Finally, they are admitting that they are geeting thier buts kicked!!!

JERUSALEM - Hezbollah's sophisticated anti-tank missiles are perhaps the guerrilla group's deadliest weapon in Lebanon fighting, with their ability to pierce Israel's most advanced tanks.

ADVERTISEMENT

Experts say this is further evidence that Israel is facing a well-equipped army in this war, not a ragtag militia.

Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.

In the last two days alone, these missiles have killed seven soldiers and damaged three Israeli-made Merkava tanks — mountains of steel that are vaunted as symbols of Israel's military might, the army said. Israeli media say most of the 44 soldiers killed in four weeks of fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles.

"They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world," said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer.

"This is not a militia, it's an infantry brigade with all the support units," Kuperwasser said.

Israel contends that Hezbollah gets almost all of its weaponry from Syria and by extension Iran, including its anti-tank missiles.

That's why cutting off the supply chain is essential — and why fighting Hezbollah after it has spent six years building up its arsenal is proving so painful to Israel, officials say.

Israel's Merkava tanks boast massive amounts of armor and lumber and resemble fortresses on tracks. They are built for crew survival, according to Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank.

Hezbollah celebrates when it destroys one.

"A Zionist armored force tried to advance toward the village of Chihine. The holy warriors confronted it and destroyed two Merkava tanks," the group proclaimed on television Thursday.

The Israeli army confirmed two attacks on Merkava tanks that day — one that killed three soldiers and the other killing one. The three soldiers who were killed on Friday were also killed by anti-tank missiles, the army said.

It would not say whether the missiles disabled the tanks.

"To the best of my understanding, they (Hezbollah) are as well-equipped as any standing unit in the Syrian or Iranian armies," said Eran Lerman, a retired army colonel and now director of the Israel/Middle East office of the American Jewish Committee. "This is not a rat-pack guerrilla, this is an organized militia."

Besides the anti-tank missiles, Hezbollah is also known to have a powerful rocket-propelled grenade known as the RPG29. These weapons are also smuggled through Syria, an Israeli security official said, and were previously used by Palestinian militants in Gaza to damage tanks.

On Friday, Jane's Defense Weekly, a defense industry magazine, reported that Hezbollah asked Iran for "a constant supply of weapons" to support its operations against Israel.

The report cited Western diplomatic sources as saying that Iranian authorities promised Hezbollah a steady supply of weapons "for the next stage of the confrontation."

Top Israeli intelligence officials say they have seen Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers on the ground with Hezbollah troops. They say that permission to fire Hezbollah's longer-range missiles, such as those could reach Tel Aviv, would likely require Iranian go-ahead

GO HB!!! FREE OUR LAND!!! GOD BLESS LEBANON!!!!! AND GOD BLESS THE LEBANESE RESISTANCE!!!! YOU WILL NEVER BREAK US ZIONISTS!!! NEVER!!!!!

Loli said...

1earth,

Pls rephrase your statement below.
It sounds chauvinistic and full of hate. It won't help your cause. malcolmx would benefit from a more balanced statement. Else, you're reinforcing some people's negative opinion.

"It's not a bad thing all together. Dead Lebanese & dead palestinians = less terrorists."

Omer (israeli) said...

"YOU WILL NEVER BREAK US ZIONISTS!!! NEVER!!!!! "

Apprently not. Only your country. Jeez, its so hard to understand your notion of "Winning". Did you think we came in to stay? Or that we would have stayed there if there were no militas targeting isreal in the first place?

But Leb, you told your personal story. And im speech less. I don't know how i would feel if it happend to me.

Itai said...

MalcolmX you got it all wrong. I think you are out of town and got lost in our neighborhood.

Hezbollah and Hamas are religious Islamic movements. The PLO was a national movement. So if you'll bother to do some research you'll find out that Egypt and Jordan are also threatened by Hamas since they have local branches there who would like to overthrow the regime, destroy the secular republic and form an Islamic Republic in the image of Iran.

If you know about Iran then you'll probably agree that it might not be a great prospect for an Egyptian Muslim but it will be a VERY BAD prospect for a Jew.

I think you should take a look at Hamas and Hezbollah manifests again. Jews can only live as Dhimmis (type of second class citizens with limited rights) in their state.

If you're an American then you should remember that that's their long term plan for your country either. Well maybe the name you chose suggests that you are not completely against it...

Lebnese Liona said...

hey omer,

This is whats killing me , today isreal killed over 30 civilians in the beqaa valley for no good reason.

The IDF is trying to now masacre the innocent since they cant win on the ground.

Nassralah gave an out and OLMERT wont take it.


OK its clear that the lebanese people are not going to get their ass kicked anymore by isreal whenever isreal feels like it.

Just like you have the F-15 F-16 made by the US and smart bombs made by the US, we have Iranian and syrian made rockets.

Kinda makes the playing field more even.

So lets stop this damn war and solve our issues peacefully

1earth said...

Loli@

Lebanese are typical Arab terrorists that celebrated 9/11. Enjoy your American made bombs. Karma is a bitch.

an Italian journalist in Beirut reported:

Trying to find our bearings, my husband and I went into an American-style cafe in the Hamra district, near Rue Verdun, rated as one of the most expensive shopping streets in the world. Here the cognitive dissonance was immediate, and direct. The café's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked, or moved. They were excited, very excited.

An hour later, at a little market near the U.S. Embassy, on the outskirts of Beirut, a thrilled shop assistant showed us, using his hands, how the plane had crashed into the twin towers. He, too, was laughing.

Once back at the house where we were staying, we started scanning the international channels. Soon came reports of Palestinians celebrating. The BBC reporter in Jerusalem said it was only a tiny minority. Astonished, we asked some moderate Arabs if that was the case. "Nonsense," said one, speaking for many. "Ninety percent of the Arab world believes that Americans got what they deserved."
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

1earth said...

Lebnese Lion, enjoy your rockets and "resistance movement", when Israel is through with Lebanon there won't be anything worth defending.

You want an out? Free the soldiers and Israel will end the airstrikes. When a ceasefire is negotiated the Israelis will go home and hezbollah can claim victory.

Itai said...

Lebanon should make sure it wants to get the Sheba Farms from Israel because according to the U.N. it's Syrian territory. Syria could use this somewhere down the line to invade Lebanon.

If you take them at least make sure Syria announces and signs it's giving up any claim to it.

Lebnese Liona said...

1earth,

maybe what you are saying is true, but have you ever heared the saying every dog has his day.

Well if you keep destroying my land I truly believe that you will have your day!!!

Omer (israeli) said...

Leb Liona,
news for you:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286267,00.html


beside that, today 3 people died form katyusha attack, all arabs. When He killed 2 arab children in Nazarat he called them "Shaid"'s. They are all citizens of israel.

Lebnese Liona said...

OMER,

THANK U SO MUCH FOR THAT LINK!!!

SEE BELOW FROM YOUR LINK, I HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND NOW WHO IS SAYING THE TRUTH AND WHO IS HIDING IT!!!


Israeli media Vs. Arab Media


Why does it take you from 3 to 12 hours to admit the death of our soldiers after Hizbollah TV staion (Al-Manar) and other Arab media do??!! I am really losing interest in following Israeli media. I am not blaming Israeli journalists but the army officials who sensor almost everything regarding this war, forgetting that people have the right to KNOW and will know soon or later. Better to know through their national media rather than the enemy media.
Sorry, but I trust our enemies’ news much more than “our” news.
www.aljazeeraenglish.net

1earth said...

Lebese Lion, well nobody ever said Arabs were intelligent.


The military does not announce the death of a soldier until the family is notified. Then the press can go ahead and publish it. Sometimes a soldier has no family in israel so it takes awhile to track them down in the Ukraine, Morocco, Australia, even Iran. It's tradition, it's respect for the family.
Unlike Arabs and Muslims which worship death, Jews and Westerners value the living more.

Lebnese Liona said...

OMG!!!!


UMM HOW ABOUT THE NUMBERS AT LEAST?

I CANT BELEIEVE THAT U FALL FOR THAT BS

Omer (israeli) said...

"So lets stop this damn war and solve our issues peacefully "

Liona, Can you gaurntee that HEZ won't attack agian? can you?

No else can be accepted, it will always be "Cease-fire" with HEZ accept when there is "fire".

HEZ will survive, But that won't solve lebanon problem. Unless you think war every few years is a good idea.HEZ is bound to do trouble again, and again.

But i have a feeling, you are not far off from Nasrallah. You like his provocative attacks on us, cause we are just nasty "Zionist".

Itai said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
1earth said...

Lebnese, you want numbers?
A 1000 Lebanese have died in Hezbollah's attempt to free a Lebanese terrorist held in an Israeli prison for bashing a child's skull in with a rock.
If you think that's a good deal Arabs aren't very good at math either.

1earth said...

Reuters is reporting that Israel has told the USA that they will accept France, the EU and UN's request for an immediate ceasefire in exchange for the soldiers release.

Lebanon, it's not going to get any better than that. Up to you if you want to end this now.

Omer (israeli) said...

Liona,
I read Al-Jezeera too. So what? it adds to the prespective. And i try to read between the lines in any place..
From what i have discovered, HEZ is using its village "Reserves", that why they dont always have uniforms. There were alot of intelligence fuck ups, like putting 23 ton on a place, only do discover earthworms. or bombing a milk factory.
But then, what do you think happened in Bekka-vally. The main issue there was Intelligence (documents, POW's and such). It wasn't only a hospital.

But i think caese fire will happen soon anyway. what next?

Itai said...

1earth, who do you think calls the shots in Lebanon?
It's a mess of astate who can't enforce its sovereignty, that's why this war started in the first place. Do you think their PM started this war? Do you think their government held a cabinet meeting and ordered the July 12th attack?

They have to negotiate things first with Hezbollah and the Iranians.

Omer (israeli) said...

Liona,
By the way, i knew you'd like the news.
Have fun,

Omer (israeli) said...

Al-Jezeera quoting the IDF:

http://www.aljazeeraenglish.net/

Roger Curtney said...

http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/Lebanon.asp

yaman said...

Please consider signing this petition asking that the Israeli military release video of its airstrikes so that we can verify whether or not civilians are being intentionally or knowingly targeted.

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

no matter what, it is imperative for muslim states to develop substantive deterrence beyond conventional forces or militias like hizbollah. this can only mean nuclear deterrence. insane? look no further than israel for hysteria unrestrained, insanity on the brink.

militants attack an israeli military patrol. how do zionists respond?

civilian annihilation. civilian shock-and-awe. civilian destruction, displacement, genocide.

israel could care less about the "cedar revolution."

zionist apologists on this blog and elsewhere don't give a fuck about peace, lebanese, innocent civilians or "terrorism" evidence their stuttering but-but-buts whenever they "explain" (excuse) zionist terrorism of women, children, the elderly & disabled (choke on your leaflets).

why? because this is not about hizbollah. this is all about zionist annihilation of non-jews to ensure zionist survival. any lebanese who blames hizbullah for israel's "response" is not only naive; they're delusional.

the only reason zionist cowards are amenable to ceasefire now is because: a) the ability of hizbullah to "threaten" israel's interior with rockets and b) hizbullah's davidic castration of idf's goliath on the ground.

so, when tomorrow inevitably arrives, how many more innocent civilians must be sacrificed whenever israel feels threatened? would israel be so hair-trigger quick to violate lebanese sovereignty if beirut commanded sufficient, substantive deterrence?

noone has to nuke each other. m.a.d. pacified 2 nuclear leviathans for decades.

but so long as israel remains the sole nuclear actor in the middle east, nuclear deterrence remains israel's ace in the hole; its carte blanche pass to bully & destroy with impunity behind the excuse of existential imperative.

think about it: when jewish settlers violently "militate" against israeli security, violate borders, incite and assault arabs -- do zionists respond with disproportionate force? do they destroy bridges, schools, hospitals, roads that service or connect violent settlers? never. but catch a non-jew militating against jews? lilies.

the cause of israeli ethnodemocracy risibly exposed as zionist racism (apartheid) is the pus which infects all else. the myth of "chosen people" a eugenic time bomb guaranteed to feed global tensions for millenia.

iranian rhetoric to destroy israel is meant to "terrorize," just as zionists terrorize neighbors with nukes and overwhelming conventional force.

iran acquired a dozen radar-defeating kh-55 cruise missles from the ukraine. pakistan probably has close to 100 nuclear warheads. with or without their own nuclear programs, muslim states can, should, even must unite -- for their survival. even with only one such cm + wh in each state's possession, israel's neighbors -- bound by a self-defense alliance pact like nato's -- could quickly castrate zionist excessive, extraterritorial aggression once and for all.

Pasdutout said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pasdutout said...

Ibn Nagrela,


Forgive me for saying this, but the kind of opinions you express is PRECISELY the excuse Israel needs to Destroy Lebanon and commit their crimes.

If people Like Mr. Ahmadinijad, or Mr. Nasrullah say: "Israel must be destroyed" - Can we be surprised if They Trash Lebanon, and kill hundreds of innocents?

If Mr. nasrullah says: I'll bomb Tel -aviv: Can we be surprised if Beirut is bombed?

MalcolmX said...

Mr. Omer,



You speak as if ISRAEL is the nation of peace, as if Hezbollah started all the hostility.



You should see what your government is doing in Lebanon and Palestine. All the massacres and the killing of women and children before defending the state of Israel.



Don’t convince the public by saying Israel wants peace with its borders. Israel started the war and surely they don’t want any ceasefire. The problem with your military operation is that you don’t differentiate between a poor child, disabled one, or poor women sleeping with their children in shelters underground. You make the Lebanese believe that you are not fighting Hezbollah but actually all Lebanese population. You Don’t believe in your war crimes and don’t apply any rules.





Moreover, when you say that Nasarllah will attack again even after the ceasefire, you got to be kidding. Nasarllah does attack when ISRAEL ATTACK the southern Lebanon and take children and women as prisoners. They defend the south side, the same way Israel is defending itself. Or Israel have the right to defend itself and occupy more lands, While any resistance group must shut up and witness the torture and pain? I don’t understand the racist Israelis' policy. You don’t want to face any resistance to stop your unlawful actions. But until when????



Last time in the 1980's there was barely any resistance, and you can see what Israel did. More massacres and destroying even though Hezbollah was not as strong or barely existed. So how would you justify your actions that time?



Obivously, You are trying to prove a false point created by your jewish propagandas.



When you speak about Sudan, You make me laugh . Please revise your info before spreading lies. Got it?



What happens in a part of sudan is a fight between different tribes for food and water and has nothing to do with Allah or isalm.So i c.... You are trying to jump into different topic that you know nothing about to justify ISraelis' crimes.



Can I ask you a question: What do you call The massacres in Lebanon and Palestine done by Jewish? GENOCIDES OR ACCIDENTS?????

Sherri said...

I continue to consider the killing of innocent civilians by Israel ethnic cleansing and genocide, both in Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza. And the approx. 50 page Human Rights Organization report recently released finds evidence of targeting of civilians in Lebanon. They document the use of cluster bombs and phosporus on civilians. There is absolutely no justification for this. I recently watched a documentary from 2001 on the Gaza Strip that showed chemical weapons being used on Palestinians, including children throwing rocks. There is absolutely no justification for this. I think justice is on the side of Hezbollah here. Will God intervene to stop the killing of the innocents? I pray God stops the killing, stops the injustice.

abou al jamejem said...

You guys are bunch of idiots, I have to repeat myself. man, I am sick and tired of all this shit.Lebanese Liona, Sliverpearl, Malcomx, and all the Huseballa fucking supporters I like to tell you that The biggest traitor in lebanon is Hasen ayri Neseralla, he sold Lebanon and his own people to Iran and Syria. I dont care what is going on between Israel and the palastenians, all I care about is My country Lebanon. that's why. I tell you guys to shut the fuck up. by the way I have nice words for Huzeb al Chaytan(devil) and his supporters IN ARABIC, AND I AM SORRY IF YOU GUYS DONT UNDERSTAND THEM :LAK AYRI BI HASEN, W AYRI BI LAHOOD, W AYRI BI 3OUN, W AYRI BI KIS EKHETOU LA KIL WEHED KHAYYIN. LAK LA NIK KISS EKHTOU LA BASHAR EL ASSAD W AHAMADINAJAD EL ZABER.LAK HASEN NESERALL IS FUCKING WAR AND MONEY LOVER. WLE STEHOU DEMMARTOU EL BALAD YA EKHWETE AL CHARMOUTA. LET ME TRANSLATE FOR YOU: FUCK HASEN NESERALLA, FUCK LAHOOD, FUCK BASHAR EL ASSAD(THE SYRIAN PRESIDENT) AND FUCK THE LITTLE GUY AHMADINAJAD.

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

Pasdutout --

israel was, in part, "founded" on terrorism. as you know, hagannah, irgun, lehi etc. were the asymmetric forebears of hamas, hizbollah et al.; militating against a non-semitic hegemon (britain) over issues of territoriality.

haganah's military wing (palmach) eventually became legitimate (idf), just as hizbollah may eventually become legitimate (under its own separate command) within laf.

olmert's "overreaction" to a militant attack against a military patrol was variously described as an "opportunity", "birth pangs", a "gift from god" to reshape the middle east by the same lunatics who "made up" weapons of mass destruction to "reshape" iraq.

these lunatics have already reshaped iraq into an improvised explosive device. olmert has done the same with lebanon -- as a zionist lackey to american lunacy.

one would think israel would be smarter than to do anything that george w. bush deems "good", laid out, no doubt, in the american president's god-whispers-to-me crusader plan. so how could israel be so stupid? why did olmert not stop when the crazy cowboy gave israel the "green light?" if a drunk tells you there's a bridge where you see none, do you keep on driving? olmert does. olmert did.

olmert's overreaction is so typical of a zionist coward overreaching for balls he never had, who never proved himself on the field of battle. worse and more tragically, olmert is wasting the blood of lebanese and israelis in a "war" that never had to be fought.

but israel's unlimited capacity to wage (conventional) war remains problematic & destabilising; a club israel often, reflexively and irresponsibly wields without credible, "actionable" threats to its existence. (why is a hizbollah scheme to exchange prisoners any more threatening in 2006 than it was in 2000? hizbollah did not attack israeli civilians when it kidnapped idf soldiers in 2000; it did not attack israeli civilians when it did the same in 2006)

some have suggested renewed efforts to build and expand lebanon's conventional military force. this is absolutely foolish.

remember: when we build a conventional military with the "idea" of defending our state against illegal & illegitimate zionist invasion, we are not competing against israel & its idf; we are competing against america and its massive, monolithic "military industrial complex."

we would and will bankrupt our economies just to buy stones; while israel is completely subsidized, armed, supported by the world's only reigning superpower.

but america is not our enemy. a sane america under sane leadership would realize its interests are not identical nor dependent on israel. ergo, israel can be cut down to size with a "correction" to american foreign policy, once america regains its credibility & legitimacy as an impartial broker (which actually benefits israel long term).

meanwhile, we've suggested how, especially with european cooperation, one could cut zionist bullies down to size. a) trade tariffs and restrictions on israeli exports levied by the eu; eu cancellation or suspension of pending deals, contracts (europe is israels biggest trade partner/market). b) coercive or punitive retaliation by opec against the u.s. to pressure israel. c) nukes.

nukes possessed by every neighboring state would be the geopolitical, geostrategic equalizer against uncontrolled, unaccountable, unrestrained zionist aggression.

ask yourselves: would zionist warmongers "act" so impulsively to destroy lebanon no matter how many idf soldiers were kidnapped by hizbollah had lebanon possessed a single, deliverable nuke? would olmert at least "consult" siniora before launching operation "grapes of bloodbath" knowing siniora had at least one button to push? giving siniora at least some leverage to "negotiate" parameters of engagement before israel dropped its first bomb or killed a single civilian?

go on. lie to yourselves. the real, substantive truth is -- hizbollah is not the issue. hizbollah is not the problem.

deterrence is a goal. stability is a goal. security is a goal. with lebanese security no less important than israeli security --- israel's sovereignty no more sovereign than jordan's, syria's, egypts, iran's -- or lebanon's.

m.a.d.? a risky, highly risky deterrent; but a sure best way to equalize state security, to ensure lebanese (arab league, iranian) security; to castrate or at least shrink the balls on our zionist u.s. fed-and-bred bull.

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