Ya Beirut! Ya Beirut, ya sit il dinyeh, ya Beirut!
The couple of hours of "rest" as I thought was just a sign for more brutality to come.
The IDF hit the airport yet again this morning. Hit the Beirut port and killed two civilians. Israeli fire did not spare the UNIFIL; an Indian soldier from UNIFIL stationed in Hawla on the Lebanese-Israeli border was wounded due to a hit from an IDF tank. Of course, more hits on the south, especially the city of Saida.
In return, Hizbullah showered Katyushas on Haifa and Nahariya.
The French Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, is heading to Lebanon in a show of solidarity with the Lebanese people.
British PM has called for a ceasefire. UN Secretary General Annan has called for an immediate ceasefire in order to dispatch an interntional military intervention force.
...and that's not even three hours from my last update!
Update: The Iranian Foreign Minister arrived to Damascus conveying a letter from Iran's President Ahmadinejad to President Assad.
Addendum: Israel is working with the US and EU to evacuate foreign nationals from Lebanon. It makes me think that the hits Lebanon is sustaining is a sign for all those who need to leave Lebanon to leave, before Israel completely isolates Lebanon from the rest of the world.
Update 2: It's confirmed, an IDF plane has fallen in Kfarshima, east of Beirut, and both of its pilots have died. The IDF is denying these reports.
An Israeli military source says that some Israeli troops are entering Lebanon by land.
I'm just hearing on TV the Israeli Army alerts to the civilians in the south. They're asked to evacuate to Beirut, because the southern border is considered now a war zone. The alert went to explain in Arabic that the reason for the shelling of the villages is because Hizballah is launching its attacks from there. It's scary listening to the alerts.
The sad part is that when people try to evacuate, they are hit. Just got news of a car completely buried under the rubble after Israeli warplanes hit a bridge in the south. Three died.
500 Lebanese have gathered in Dubai, UAE to call for the end of attacks.
Update 3: A building in Haifa has collapsed as result of the Katyusha rockets.
President Lahoud has officially claimed that he supports the "Resistance" and will not give up Sayyid Nasrallah.
Update 4: AlJazeera reported that the downed Israeli plane is a pamphlet container not an F-16 jet.
Update 5: The Iranian Foreign Minister called for a ceasefire and exchange of prisoners.
Hizbullah has refused to give in to Israel's conditions.
"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."
119 comments:
It is amazing that you have such a romantic identification with a country that was made by the French. Perhaps this is a good sign that we can create identities out of thin histories. Lines drawn on the sand in 3 generations become objects of identity to die over. This could be used to create a united Middle East, Lebanese lead the way!!
I'm not sure that attacking this army installation in the north was smart, but then I'm just an outsider watching this mess unfold. It would appear that Israel does blame the Lebanese Army, rightly or wrongly:
Israel, technically at war with Lebanon since 1948, said it had targeted radar stations in the north because Hezbollah had used them to hit an Israeli ship on Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah.
"The attacks ... are against radar stations used, among other things, in the attack on the Israeli missile boat, by Hezbollah in cooperation with the Lebanese military," an Israeli army spokesman told The Associated Press.
The Associated Press
Some American military analysts believe that Israel is prepping the battlefield by completely isolating Lebanon in order to cut off Hezbollah and then invade to take them out. It appears that things are going to get even uglier. Dammit.
Could be, I dunno. God keep you all, I have to leave for work. Hopefully the news will be better when I return this evening.
If u ppl have brain in your head , tell you goverment to kick out the HIZZBALA... Duh !!!
How a terror group controling a goverment???
What do you expect Israel to do?
sit back and get bombed?
Return Israel soldiers and quite will return... this is THAT easy.
jad j, unfortunately i see no other tactical value of bombing the roads connecting southern with northern lebanon if the next step isn't a ground operation ... last time the israelis have donethis, the roads where not destroyed before, and many of the HA and other militant group members were able to flee to the north. i hope i'm wrong and you are right, but i'm not that convinced.
Israel is killing us to save us, same way bush killed iraqis to save them right?
define terror for me again please? i for once am terrified and and so are all the lebanese people. hitting wheat reserves is not cutting HA off, it is cutting the people off and destroying the lebanese race. terror? no?
massacres targeting whole villages and burning people alive, terror? maybe not?
cutting off electricity, all means to run away, phone lines, evacuating the whole country of all the non-lebanese souls while we watch getting the message that no chance we will survive. terror?
asking us to disarm a power that you (with your superior military power, compared to the lebanese government with its non-existing army) can hardly handle, knowing that we can't and killing us anyway.. terror? not yet?
all the lebanese prisoners of war that HA is trying to get back through exchange with 2 prisoners of yours.. 2=100's, is the equation, is how much we're worth. are you a super-race.. familiar? Nazis? terrifying isn't it?
that's terror.
i am a moderate liberal Lebanese person, who hated HA. i do not condone using the borders of my country for any operation not supported by the government (like taking 2 prisoners in the hope of exchange for hundreds).
i also do not condone killing and terrorizing millions of people for the sake of revenge.
FOR THAT IS TERROR
as i write this, civilians dying trying to run away while israel's raid destroyed the bridge.
HA is not a terrorist group. HA was founded in response to your occupation of lebanon. your invasion in 1982.
they resort to any means they have to defend their land. they blow themselves up for the lack of other means. for them it is better to die than to see you occupying our country.
if HA is terrorist based on your definition (or that of bush), so would be the palestinian children hitting your tanks with rocks to resist the opression and the injustice you put them through.
the children of the intifada don't die. they are in all of us.
and a country never dies.
Bushmert doesn’t care about “collateral damages”: someone who enthusiastically destroyed Bagdad, the former capital of an empire stretching from Spain to India, won’t have second thoughts about razing a small Arab city-state with no oil to steal.
The Arab League and its Saudi and Egyptian “pillars” did nothing for Iraq in 2003, even though TeX-Aviv was then exclusively targeting their fellow Sunni Arabs…
Don’t expect the Wahhabi collaborators of Riyadh to lift a finger for Lebanon.
Three days ago, the house of Saud sent a crystal clear message to Bushmert- a man who appreciates “moral clarity” whatever that means:
“The massacre can continue. Please Sahib President, make sure Yahweh’s glorious air force destroys in priority Beirut, the South, and the Beqaa valley. Allah blesses you. Saudi Arabia is your friend. You can always count on us. The Supreme Council of the Riyadh ‘Ulamas is praying day and night for your victory. We love you Mr. President. Allah loves you.”
sagi
why do you think israel should automatically be involved in a US/Iran war. will you guys also be fighting a war that's not yours on your land because as HA/IRAN/SYRIA is one front, the US/Israel is the same front?
i haven't talked politics since this whole thing started. as part of our united front strategy to stay alive as lebanese, we are just focused on the cease fire and on the atrocities of the war.
but i'm really interested in your analysis sagi
i do believe iran is using the arabic card. i said the first day that HA is stepping in to take the role of arafat. arafat had the palestinan cause which is, at least for show, undebatable in terms of support for the arabic rulers. he fed on it and used it while he kept selling dreams to the palestinians who just wanted to live. he gave them illusions. you do understand that within this same logic israel is the reason palestine is in this position in the first place. that's why when the palestinians finally saw through arafat, to them he was an asshole but israel was still the enemy.
now as for lebanon, these same arabic rulers lack the same enthusiasm for lebanon and don't feel they owe lebanon like they did palestine. so again, i can understand israel not wanting to have HA on its borders in case a USA-Iran war erupted. why would Iran push HA to do something like that now? they know they won't get the arabic support so what's the point?
also sagi, why the touristic ports, why a hospital, why the wheat reserves?
eran, i think the qana "mistake" was already done in marwa7een. "mistake" meaning not media friendly story, if not committing a mistake meaning strategic hits sparing civilians i think a lot of mistakes have been done already.
Good afternoon everyone,
Lots of interesting discussions going on here. I am afraid I have work to do, so hope to catch up with it later.
I just found a few blows aimed at me in my absence in the last post ;)
Shmulik, I am sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to. It is striking though, that you justify everything the IDF does when we on the receiving end see all the mistakes it makes.
Regarding attacking army posts, I stick to my position. There were lots of misunderstandings in the discussion in the last post, and I thank Jad for clearing up some of the points in my absence. I was mainly saying that the army does not cooperate with Hizballah (as Jad pointed out, Hizballah are better equipped than the army). There are different ways to employ RADAR. As for the C-802, Shmulik, ya Shmulik, it is indeed RADAR guided as you say. But it is itself equipped with an inertial and terminal active RADAR. i.e.
When entering the terminal phase of flight, the missile switches on its terminal guidance radar to search for the target.
I have found this information on Wikipedia then double checked it on strategycenter.net (if you find info to the contrary, please share). If true, I am sure IDF knows that. I am of the opinion that targeting army posts is of no strategic importance. It is a demoralizing campaign and an attempt to further justify the attack on Lebanon (Look! The army is helping them!). It might also be designed to force the Lebanese army into one position or the other. Whichever it is, it is a grave mistake.
It can be a drone. Then the heavy bombing of this place is understandable as ours would like to destroy it. Still (10 minutes ago) IDF denies it.
Eran,
I think it was you asking about location of things in Lebanon. Check this out. We try our best to keep it updated, but it is such a whirlwind of events!
* If you have google earth, you can also just open the part of the link beginning with "http" in Add... Network link.
soha, i think it's another way to force our army to work against HA. same strategy used with the civilians, help us kill them or we kill you, which is most of the commentators are surprisingly supporting "we have to do it"
sub rosa says, we don't want to punish the lebanese as funny as that is, then says in her cute words "slap you and shake you over"
as in murder you and your children.
Nothing on Future TV reagarding the fallen object (aliens?). Just reports from different places in the south, including Marji'youn and the refugees it is taking. I have family there...
Hope no casualties in Haifa.
Eran,
Funny, you have a Hebrew/Arabic smile (from right to left). It is sad.
Salam Alekom
I hope this cycle will end soon with minimal casualties and Lebanon will re-build. I really hope that Building of Lebanon will be in a stage that Israel can support it .
Jad my question to you is :
What do you think are the conditions that we, the people, can cooperate and combine our vision into a safer place to our children?
I wish to know how much the Lebanonize can imagine economic cooperation combined with social and educational development with us the Israelis. What are the Israel behaviors that can make the Israeli existence appealing to the Lebanonize. After all, we can expect this round to end, I do not know if Israel will win all its objectives but it made clear that Lebanon should not enable aggression from its border.
I can say that the Israelis in general are seeking such relationship. But we can not understand the aggression (We are thought in our schools that the Arabs were against our "just" idea to create Jewish state, but in our books it not clears why, beside assumption of inherent hatred).
What do not understand what symbolize in our existence that makes the situation irresolvable? ( I can take harsh words, I want to see the deep causes and it not need to be pleasant to me as Israeli)
I think that we may need to adjust our "Zionist" vision. We showed a unique talent to create a modern stable state (Just notice that Arik Sharon's power transition was simple even when he got into comma). We have one of the most efficient army in the world (I know that we build it on top our war with the Palestinian and Arabs with support of the US, but we knew how to do it), and our economy is relatively better then the Arab world economies. I think our new vision should be to share it with our neighbors and the Palestinians and put the safety and prosperity of the whole region on higher level then the ethno-centric idea of Jewish state. There is no danger to jews today beside the enemies created by establishing Israel.
But at these circumstances I cannot see many Israelis joining me to create such new vision because we feel that we are surrounded by Arab enemies who will take our knowledge and abilities and use them against us. The current attack is highly supported by the Israeli public because we see it as a long term message to secure our citizens hence it preserve for us an ethno-centric world view.
Peace,
Neri Bar-On
Tel-Aviv
6 wounded in Haifa, one seriously.
neri
i am sorry to tell you that is peace for the future of your children and ours is what you have in mind, this just ruined all these chances.
as i mentioned before, a big portion of the population was against HA before these events.
Israel's punishment of lebanon left the lebanese forgetting about HA and just focusing on their hate to israel for what they're doing.
you even put us at a place where we cannot object to HA right now, after all they ae fighting from this side of the border.
again big mistake for all of us regardless of who started it. the escessive use of force just made us unanymously announce one ennemy in this war.
i am projecting the lebanese opinion and feeling. our news channels report the strikes from the ennemy period.
omer
we (the arabs) are not anti-jewish
we are anti-zionist
and in matters of politics and war, we are against the governments not the people. i have very good friends here in NY who are from Israel.
it's not the people, never the people's fault.
this doesn't seem to matter for the israeli "killing machine" as it manifests right now.
you did in 82 exactly what you're doing now to us. back then the reason was to take care of the PLO and now HA. since 82, to lebanon you were the invadors and now you're doing the same.
eran, who are you talking about?
Dear Mivrat,
Yes I can see that, siting in my safe place here in Tel-Aviv clrarly make an ilusion of of possibility of rational discussion.
My hart is with you. I do not know if I am welcome but when I see the picture of the children I see my 3 yr old son and get connected to this no boundary human feeling I think we all share. it bring tears to my eyes.
As I said, I guess most Israelis are in different state and feeling less care of the lebanonize, the current Israel image of Lebanon is as un-responsible government that did not control such organization as HA so we need to force them to be responsiable regardless of their internal politics because we have higher priority to secure Israel citizens.
With all that yesterday about 1,000 people demonstrated against this Israeli violent act just in front of my house in Tel-Aviv. So some of us recognize the Lebanonize suffering but we are locked into this "etno-centric" views that hide the site of lebanonize children and future. I guess you can agree with me that HA want such situation because it proves their point that Israel is aggressive, but we have to find other ways to interact.
I can see you expect from Israel to assure no aggression and act as friendly neighbor. What else can you expect from Israel 5 years from now when Lebanon will be on its feet again? What you expect from Israel relationship with the Palestinians?
Dear Mivrat,
Yes I can see that, siting in my safe place here in Tel-Aviv clrarly make an ilusion of of possibility of rational discussion.
My hart is with you. I do not know if I am welcome but when I see the picture of the children I see my 3 yr old son and get connected to this no boundary human feeling I think we all share. it bring tears to my eyes.
As I said, I guess most Israelis are in different state and feeling less care of the lebanonize, the current Israel image of Lebanon is as un-responsible government that did not control such organization as HA so we need to force them to be responsiable regardless of their internal politics because we have higher priority to secure Israel citizens.
With all that yesterday about 1,000 people demonstrated against this Israeli violent act just in front of my house in Tel-Aviv. So some of us recognize the Lebanonize suffering but we are locked into this "etno-centric" views that hide the site of lebanonize children and future. I guess you can agree with me that HA want such situation because it proves their point that Israel is aggressive, but we have to find other ways to interact.
I can see you expect from Israel to assure no aggression and act as friendly neighbor. What else can you expect from Israel 5 years from now when Lebanon will be on its feet again? What you expect from Israel relationship with the Palestinians?
Eran,
My mistake. I sent you a cached link. Try this in google earth or insert it in the "search maps" field on maps.google.com and it will load automatically.
Let me know if we've missed anything (haven't updated to include today's events yet).
sagi i think i started to lose you logic
"Who in Lebanon stood to gain from provoking Israel to that extent
For the sake of a few prisoners"
now you talk about lebanon and HA interchangebly. i thought you were convinced that the lebanese government has no interest in this and so convinced that the punishment is not directed towards us.
"that would be released THE VERY SECOND Lebanon and Israel finally sign a peace agreement" i also thought that these war criminals do not deserve to be released! ever!
and please check what i said to ner which is the expected reaction from the people. how is that going to be of any good for the future?
neri
let's pray for lebanon to survive. palestine, you saw the demonstrations right? your actions are throwing the whole arabic street into a unified reaction anti israel which we haven't seen in a while, even for the iraq war.
nothing good..
the best for you and your kids and i really appreciate your empathy with your fellow human beings.
Jad,
could you please let me know your sources for "human shields" and incursions into Christian area. This is dangerous information. I would like to sift out reality from other kinds of attempts - "mu'aamarah" :P
Sub Rosa said:
I know you are all Christians or Suni and that you don't represent the poor Shiite villagers or the Palestinians.
Actually, I am half Palestinian.
our prime minister seniora is in charge
whatever the president says is just him voicing what syria wants to say.
Hi,
I am writing from The Sun newspaper in the UK. We are looking for bloggers to send us a piece on the situation as it stands.
Please contact me if this is of interest.
Aaron Bateman
suninternet1@the-sun.co.uk
Jad,
About Zionism, I can state my opinion that I think we can recognize that Zionist idea needs to change. If we keep the "Jewish" rights to control the land we do not leave reasonable space to the 20% of the Israeli citizens (Arab) and not much to the Palestinians who got greater project then the Zionist project.
I can recognize that most Israelis are stuck in the loop of "we must be a Jewish state". It especially rises when organization as HA get successes as the one they had.
To craft a new identity we need a wider scope, we need to take all of Zionist success and share it with the world, in a way that Palestinians will be able to create their own identity and statehood. But it needs some degree of acceptance of "kind" of Israeli people who see themselves with obligation toward the human tissue of this region. I do not see if from the HA side nor from Hamas, so the change can be done only on theoretical level.
We also can learn from the Zionist project, for instance you may not know but during the 48 war one of the branches (I think HAHETZEL –led by Menahem Begin) was bringing it own weapon, but did not want to share it with the new formed IDF. So the sank the Altalena sheep with it crew. (years later you met the Menahem Begin as the P.M. who entered Lebanon). This is important lesson for us of the importance to speak in one voice when we are at war.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html
omer
i agree with all what you said coming from your point of view. the events of the Nasser war in 67 proves that. in order to protect what you established in 48, you had to be agressive and went far into sinai, golan, ghaza and west bank. south lebanon was a reaction to PLO that followed.
all true, the problem is as lebanese, people of peace we do not believe in excessive force and as Arabs, we do not believe in zionism. hence your establishment of the jewish state is for us, not legitimate and the war of 67 is 100% founded and supported.
this difference, i always say, is a difference of a principle so big that almost compares to differences in religious beliefs that drive people into aggression and extremism.
Hey. I'm writing you from Israel - Just wanted to let people know, that not everybody here supports the "collective punishment" the people of Lebanon are forced to go through. Hope this situation will end as soon as possible, with no more innocent victims from both sides.
Ilan - Little-Israel
neri, Begin's entry into lebanon was not planned, and just stupid back then. they ended up cleaning up some internal mess and looking bad. back then we were in the midst of a very violent civil war and the PLO was using it as an oasis to operate. when things got out of hand, they ended up leaving. this is why i said olmert is worse than sharone. ruthless.
Omer,
I am 40, ask yourself how many Israelies will approve today to remove the "jewish state" from our Israeli identity. With all my friend from the political "Left" non was agree to remove it. but I agree with you, it is time to change ourself and open ourself to change with our relationship with Arab and esspecially palestinians. it is not only us, but we need to do our homework too.
I wish our Lebanonize friend will tell us what is the image of Zionism they see. instead we tell them what Zionism is. After all they act from their image of Israel not from our Image of Israel.
thank you Ilan
There is a problem of perspective here that I encounter whenever I have a discussion with an Israeli: While Israel continually perceives itself as a victim, it is perceived by its neighbors as the continual aggressor. Citizens of surrounding countries do not understand how Israelis can fear for their survival when the Israeli military is among the strongest in the world (rank 6, I believe). There is, no doubt, a lot of propaganda on both sides to enforce these visions. On the Arab side, the Palestinians are used by regimes like that of Assad & Ahmadinejad: they claim to help them but use them to advance their own agendas. The lack of communication between us definitely reinforces this propaganda.
I can tell you that, at least judging by people around me and on both sides of the family (i.e. both Palestinians and Lebanese), no one hopes to "regain Palestine" and everyone is sick and tired of this conflict, just as sick and tired as Israelis. The problem is that, for whatever reasons (I am not apportioning blame), they perceive IDF actions in the West Bank and Gaza as ethnic cleansing. The increase in the building of settlements after the Oslo Accords provides them with proof that the Israeli government and at least a portion of the Israeli population do not want peace.
You should also know that, as Mirvat has pointed out, people make a very good distinction between Judaism and Zionism, the latter they perceive as a settlement ideology. Many an old refugee in the camps of Lebanon talk about their old Jewish neighbors before '48 with fondness and most Lebanese lament the decimation of their small, but propserous Jewish community (Great book on Lebanese Jews: The Jews of Lebanon, by Kirstin Schulz).
I am pointing out these things to make a point and that is that our respective governments (Arab and Israeli) feed these tensions between us and use these differences to advance different agendas. Extremist groups funded by governments (let's not forget that the Israeli state supported Hamas in the 1980's to undermine a secular, if violent Fateh) play a large role in that. I believe part of the problem is breaking down the barriers so that more people understand that those on the other side want peace too. These forums are excellent for this sort of thing, but we should establish something more permanent (constantly refreshing this is also getting on my nerves). Any ideas on how to be able to chat in real time? How about we set up a list?
historical events and corresponding arabic views and feelings throughout the years
modern zionism: founded in 1896
by theodor herzl (the Jewish state) which argues that the Jewish problem of persecution in the world could be solved by setting up a jewish state in palestine, or somewhere else, so that jews can live freely.
1917: Balfour declaration by britain decides that the jewish state would be in palestine
(oh really!) not enough all the other arabic countries were occupied.
1936-39: arabs of palestine revolt to that.
(of course, it's their land!!)
48: israel established anyway
(still not enough to the jews)
56: israel,joining forces with britain and france (our enemies at the time, our invadors after the ottoman empire and britain was ferocious in egypt) attacks egypt in nasser times when all arabs were united.
(that's the arab injury)
64: nasser's PLO founded (what do you expect, that was the arabic hope and nasser was their pride )
67:
israel launches strike against egypt syria and jordan and takes sinai, golan, ghaza, west bank.
(this is the aggression you talk about)
69: arafat's time as head of PLO
79: sadat's peace treaty.
After Nasser was gone, we were looking at egypt to find sadat sign a peace reaty where the arabs were still outraged and waiting to free the land of their fellow arabs. arafat had to become the symbol of the cause and of what's left of nasser. even when he lets them down, he was all the palestinians had left. and don't convince me that palestinians have it great in israel now.
they wanted their country back and as arabs we all unite on that. that what defines arabs in the emotional memory of people today.
sub rosa, we would ideally like both. Preferably someone living in Beirut and someone in Haifa.
Thanks, Aaron
suninternet1@the-sun.co.uk
i want to add to what suha said by saying that we see the paranoia and the excessive aggression as completely unfounded. again i live in NY and i know the jewish influence in the world. not to mention your military power and your american support. the idea that you are living amongst arabic countries and have to be on the alert is also old and goes back to nasser's days.
in retrospect we interpret it as a policy of aggression and expansion.
i would also like to say that the united states also is projecting a state of christian extremism which is the view of most liberal democrats here. and that in their history, they backed up and funded their share of extremists and still do.
كتبت00 قصيدة للدفاع عن لبنان ولأظهار المشاعر الكويتيه تجاه الشعب اللبناني الحبيب
ودعوت كل الكويتين00 للعمل وبذل كل ما بوسعهم للمساعده 00ومحاولة رفع الظلم 00000عن اخواننا اللبنانين الرجاء قرأتها في المدونه الخاصه00 بنا
ونشرها 00حتى يري الشعب 00اللبناني محبة الشعب الكويتي
وشكراً
وعسى الله أن يحفظكم
jad j, about the topic discussed earlier wether israel was preparing a conventional/ground operations, have a look at this:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002586.html
i still fear this is what will happen.
omer
can you adress the other points and lose the attitude please? i am sharing our views because i was asked so that we might reach somewhere by educating each other.
i could really live without this right now but i feel that i might be doing something constructive.
"The sad part is that when people try to evacuate, they are hit. Just got news of a car completely buried under the rubble after Israeli warplanes hit a bridge in the south. Three died.doha"
the term zionism is still relevent to the arabs for reasons i mentioned above. arabs do not accept the legitimacy of the founding of the state of israel in principle.
i personally agree that this should be history only for the argument, and this is in principle, that at this point not acknowleging zionism would be the same idea that the zionists originally used to land in palestine and eventually not acknowleging the palestinians
Just in from Lebanon.
I quote :
On behalf of all Lebanese Citizens:
Dear friends,
I am writing to you as a helpless human being praying in a country slowly
being erased from the surface of life for my salvation, that of my fellow
Lebanese brothers and that of my country.
A brief summary from the perspective of a citizen: half of Lebanon is
isolated with more than 40 main bridges destroyed, my family in the south
has no food to eat, no meat, no bread and the vegetables are very highly
priced because of the danger to bring them in, missiles are fired every
day and night on many villages in the south. Beirut is harshly being
bombarded, a lot of bridges were pulverized even in the capital, the
airport is devastatingly damaged as well as all the roads linking Lebanon
to the neighbouring country Syria. Today all the sea ports were bombarded
and we are imprisoned while many Lebanese are compelled to stay outside
Lebanon and many non-Lebanese from all nationalities are compelled to
remain in. No food, gas, fuel, or post can reach us. Villages all over the
Bekaa and the north are also bombarded and this all has happened in only 3
days!!!
The situation is escalating around the clock! We are now under the threat
of chemical intoxication since many fuel storage tanks all over the
coastline are being targeted. There is much worst! Kafarshooba and Hetta,
two villages in the south are being shelled with prohibited chemical
weapons and toxic substances. Villagers who are seeking refuge in
occasional shelters, completely isolated with no minimum fundamental
supplies, are asked now to inhale through wet textiles, sniff onions and
to grind charcoal then put it in wet tissues to protect themselves from
intoxication!
Hundreds of civilians were cold-bloodedly targeted and killed on purpose
in such a way never seen or imagined before! The most appalling and
shocking massacre was when a bus carrying about 25 villagers from
Marwaheen was hit by a rocket. They were fleeing their village following
an Israeli threat and the UNIFL refused to shelter them! No one of them
remained alive! The region of Dahieh (Beirut southern suburb) was
completely devastated like Hiroshima… Its inhabitants, or those who are
still alive, are fleeing to other regions where public and private schools
establishments opened their door to give them refuge…
In light of the foregoing, I feel that words are useless or have lost
their meaning….
I am not sure what I am asking for exactly...I don't know if you are aware
that the UN meeting on Thursday did not lead to a decision to a
cease-fire, which I perceive as contradictory with the very definition of
the UN.
All I want is my rights as a human being. What I am asking for is that no
matter what the problem is, it should be solved outside the scope of a
war.
Is there anything our community of young people can do? Would the
governments of the world listen to the voices of the next generation? I
really don't know what I am asking for, but I know I am asking for help.
Thank you for reading this, it would already mean a lot to me.
LeMSIC, with the help of some IFMSA Officials has prepared a petition, to
be sent to the UN, UN Security Council, EU, and other NGOs, institutions
and councils working in the field of Human Rights and Peace.
To access and sign the petition, please click on
http://www.petitiononline.com/Jul06Leb/petition.html
Let's make a stand for humanity, let's make a stand against war, let's
make a stand against crimes..
Please forward to all your members, friends, and families..
God Bless Lebanon
Lara M.N. El-Zahabi, MD
President - LeMSIC
Lebanese Medical Students' International Committee
Vice-President - IFMSA
International Federation of Medical Students' Associations
Private Address
American University of Beirut - Medical Center
P.O. BOX: 11-0236/E20
Beirut - Lebanon
Mobile: +961 3 702635
Fax: +961 1 366098
IFMSA General Secretariat
c/o World Medical Association
BP 63
012 12 Ferney-Voltaire Cedex
France
@ Jad J
O.K. this is a bit long (hope you are in shelter for some time). If you can write some more about Zionism without then reduction of Zionism to Nazism I would be able to learn, but our new Israel Identity movement needs to address new name since Zionism idea is spoiled by the result of the creation of Israel and the Harm done to the Palestinians.
I also see it as regional idea that enables non Israelis to join to this re-shaping of our relationships. We should stop pay for our parents faults and take responsibility to help the needy (Palestinians, and probably after this cycle, to some period of time, to the Lebanoneeze) the new idea of Israel will need to enable other to use its abilities to address the need of the people. This is why we call it "Integral". Israel cannot disconnect itself from the Palestinians and let them kill each other or blame them that they cannot construct a sovereign state.
1- Show point by point what the fundamentals of Zionism are.
The origin of zionism is the notion of Jewish national unity, at the end of the 19th century a lot of the Jewish wisdom and resources were addressed Zionist idea of creating a Jewish state. After the Holocaust (1942) this drive become stronger. Jewish wisdom is know-how in science, technology, social management etc. through out history you can see that Jews were state-men and economists. Generally speaking Jews were successful people with wide knowledge but no territory. The Zionist movement reacted to the shamanism idea that explained Jewish success with bad manners The Holocost is manifestation of the shamanism and prove to the Zionist that they were right and people hate Jews just because they are Jews.
The harm of the Zionist start when the come to Palestine and start using "modern" low and economy. For instance, wanted to buy land so they see a village, they pay for the head of the village and send away all the villagers who did not own land. Then they bring Jewish workers, The Zionist movement know how to organize workers (AMIR PERETZ political career was in the HISTADRUT, a worker union and not in the army as you expect a minister of defense). In general they wanted Jewish workers and with their advantage pushed the Arab workers with the different world view out of work. With the Arab nationality movement the Zionism become more and more closed to the local people and put more effort to bring more jewish and establish a jewish economy. You can find today that "Israely-Arabs" in general have higher economic wealth and freedom from Arabs in other states but they still got higher economic and social barrier the jews in Israel.
A sketch:
Zionism I - origianly (19th century) create a state for the jewish people
Zionism II - (20th century)create Jewish state in Israel
Zionism III - (1930 and up) win the territory from the Palestinian
Zionism IV - (1948) secure territory of Jewish state; enable any Jew to be a citizen
Zionism V - (1967) control the Palestinians
Zionism VI - (1978) control the Palestinians and construct relationships with the arab world
New phase - (soon) remove Jewish priority (Jews are safe all over as everybody, even if current Zionist do not recognize that) become a model of open society thrive to mobilize resources to help the needy to thrive. Channel Western culture and Arab culture in a healthy way.
2- what point do u think have already failed
The Zionist failed to create a country without harm to other. They did not "see" the Palestinians since they told themselves that Palestine is empty. The Zionist failed to recognize that they need to become "one" with the Palestinians and Failed to enable the Palestinians to build their society.
3- what points do u think they are doomed to fail
Keeping "Jewish" priority in our Vision we doomed to stack in 19th century national ideas of abuse the land and the space. The human challenge now is to enable healthy echo-system that can harm us more then our stupid "I will kill more of you" behavior.
4- what point u do not agree on.
I think Israel created and exist, it needs to get our of it ethno-centric Zionist phase and get into more World-centric view that is open to the other humans of this region.
"Jews are safe all over as everybody" I do not agree with this. I think that the Jewish state should exist. Moreover, the lost of Jewish nature of Israel will in my opinion destroy it. In practice this mainly (probably only) means that the citizenship should be granted to every Jew and almost exclusively to them. Certainly all citizens should be equal.
Hizbollah please leave lebanon ,most of the people of lebanon would like to live in peace . no need for more islamic radicals .
Jad,
I am investigating ways to start some sort of forum. So, sorry if my response reveals that I haven't been following up closely on the discussion:
I do not think anyone here disputes Israel's right to exist. The question is how? I see that Jad and Omer at least, see that the solution starts with the Palestinians. Solve the problem there and the rest will follow. I could not agree more. I see the one state solution as the ideal one: a non-Jewish Israeli state of which the West Bank and Gaza are part. I know a lot of people would object to that, given the demographic factor (in a the single state solution, there are as many Arabs as there are Jews, which is a funny opposition). So perhaps a federal state?
Zionism fits in this vision perfectly. In its old form (I-IV in neri's expose) Zionism fed a lot on both nationalist and colonialist movements of the time (someone already pointed out the nationalist influence). The ethnic/religious make up of the early days of Israel meant not only that Christian and Muslim Arabs are not welcome, but also reflected itself on the treatment of the Mizrahim (the colonialist aspect of the debasement of Arabs/Orientals).
In its new form (as someone also pointed out, Israel is a multi-racial society) Zionism embraces differences (the demographic struggle plays a role here). Embracing the 1967 Palestinians as citizens can be theorized as the natural extension of a facet of Zionism (V-VI in neri's beautiful expose). I frankly do not have much trust in Arab governments and I think that this mutation in Zionism (i.e. Israel taking responsibility for the Palestinians) would unravel the Middle East dilemma.
Now, give us your objections:
Jad,
"expose IAF usage of chemical weapons" You mean "prove IAF usage of forbidden chemical weapons"?
I strongly doubt it: there is uniform consensus in Israel against usage of WMD, so uniform that it is impossible to cover (thousands people cannot keep it secret) and, if proved without doubt, it will result in immediate stop of all activities and trial of everyone involved. Only ultra-right idiots can suggest it, and only because they know nobody will listen them.
P.S. 50 missiles from Hezb today so far. Hezb puts small ballbearings inside the rockets
to increase the effect, cars look like colander (if I remember the word correctly).
Subrosa,
Afraid I am already married. But your IDF incursion is certainly ruining my marital life!
I don't have a server either for vBulletin. Maybe we could just start a regular blog and a mailing list. The blog can be the public forum. Mailing list can be where we formulate issues that we think are important before we address them in the public forum. Issues like in which pub we will have a beer when a peace treaty is signed.
suha:
it looked from your earlier post like you were doing the updating to the google map file? if so, do you need any help with it? let me know, as i'm around a computer all day and could offer some time
chris
Suha,
"I do not think anyone here disputes Israel's right to exist." For me non-Jewish Israel, with Palestinian majority, will become just another Arab state, i.e. will no longer exist. So thanks, but no thanks. I would say that two states solution is closer to be realistic.
But the main problem is that Palestinians will not change opinion about Israeli existence for many years (lets do not flame about reasons). So putting the solution of Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the first stage effectively pushes all hopes for Israel-Lebanon peace away for many years. Egypt, Jordan did not want to wait, so why Lebanon does? Do you want to struggle for "our Palestinian brethens" as Hezballah or start with peace at some place?
@Mitrii
As I said not all Israelis see that the "Jewish" issue. And it not needs to destroy the Jewish nature of the Jewish communities.
Moreover the Israel entity can continue and support Jews (and Palestinians) who are attacked because their origin.
But this "Jewish" disables us from getting a state where "all citizens are equal." Because at this point Jews are equal more with right of return and other advantages.
So we will have Jewish communities and Jewish citizens side by side to Arab communities and one day we will have equal simple citizen community.
Mitrii we cause all the Jews in the world to be unsafe because the Israel state is recognized as the Jewish state who robed the Palestinians, we need to recognize it as the Arab need to recognize that Israel is here to stay.
The World is open to us with Ethernet and travel abilities, we need safety and justice more then Walls and borders and fake ethno-centric identity that cause tension.
suha, i might be able to help out providing a server where a forum can be run.
Eran & Mitrii,
Thought as much. But I put it forth anyway since many Palestinian friends expressed that they would rather be part of Israel than of Jordan. Problem is a Paletinian state is less and less feasible by the hour, considering the extent of Israeli settlements. How would federalism sit with you?
Mitrii,
The problem is that Lebanon is neither Egypt nor Jordan. It has a sizeable Palestinian community with refugee status. So, for a just Lebanese/Israeli peace, the Palestininan refugees should be part of the solution. And the Palestinian refugees will not be part of the solution unless there is some Palestinian/Israeli settlement.
Chris,
there are 2 of us working on it. Thanks for your offer, nevertheless.
i've had really good experience using google groups - and my guess is that with the whole google talk stuff as well that would be a good platform to use. plus it's definitely scalable and there would be no need for hosting on seperate servers... also the moderatorship / inclusion / exclusion tools are really easy to use.
would be happy help with moderation as well (since you are map-point-posting full already suha :> )
chris
jad:
funny - i seem to remember them using phosph. a lot bombing beirut in the 80's...
also: it has been an american armament of choice in urban areas of "the restive anbar province"
and its use on human targets *does* violate gen.cons.
chris
Yalla! Let's google!
Jad,
I have to go.
if you open a forum and you find it interested to invite me, please do: neri.baron@integralisrael.org
I hope no chemicals and harmfull means, as far as I know Israel will not use such thing in these conditions. with all the respect to HA they did not show they realy danger the state of israel. I wish to you and your famely and all lebanoneze health and let finish this cycle there was too much harm so far.
You can find some of our doing in
http://www.leadcoach.com/archives/e-journal/2006/2006_06_maalouf.html
http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?beck10.html
http://www.integralisrael.org/rafinasser.htm
jad
give me an email (christopher.fabian@gmail.com) and if you want help in the setting-up etc... i've got some time
Say, how about a name:
Just Peace?
Beirut2TelAviv?
(this is starting to remind me of a scene in Life of Brian).
Neri Bar-On:
I do not think that discussing how to organize our state in the blog of a person whom we respect and hope to call a friend but are bombing right now, whenever this is justified or not, is a thing I can be proud of.
Suha,
It is completely surreal, this conversation. Just try not to use the word "Justice" or anything absolute, this never brings any good.
zionrules: Where did you take it from? Be careful, this is very serios allegation (if you mean Sarin).
If true, this (formally) makes legitimate use of just everything by IDF, including nukes (though in practice I doubt they will use it even then).
That's all I see on the news:
Diplomatic efforts to end Israeli-Hezbollah fighting gained traction Monday, with Israeli officials saying they would agree to halt fighting if their two captured soldiers were returned and Islamic guerrillas withdrew from the border.
Jad,
send me invitation to mitrii57@google.com.
Peaceful Coexistence?
Jad,
I am only a guest on this forum. Raja is nowhere to be found. There is only Doha. I will not be in Lebanon before December, inshallah.
How about "Holm" as a name. It means "dream" in Hebrew too, doesn't it?
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2905
about bombing the north of Lebanon. Brave Nasrallah
Jad et al,
The dialogue you've undertaken here is astounding; I (and many others all over the world, I'm sure) have been reading with enormous hope -- perhaps not for today, but for the tomorrow we all long for.
I hope you won't close your discussion, or too tightly exclude (though strong moderation would be obviously called for...) Merely being able to follow this has given perspective that would be impossible otherwise, for both sides (or rather, all sides) of the equation.
Your voices have given me hope. I hope we can continue to hear them.
Polimom
USA
i am shocked that no one thus far has discussed any of the historical or political reasons for this violence.
ahem: have we forgotten that israel is a colonial state, settled on the dust of 700.000 palestinian refugees who now number 6 million, many of whom reside in south lebanon and support hezbollah?
israel, like the united states, is interested in nothing short of keeping its colonies safe from the meddling native intruders who demand democracy and a respect for their human and political rights. no such respect is granted.
israel would not have problems in the neighborhood were it to give up its occupation of the west bank, relieve gazans from their miserable, open air prison, quit trying to intimidate the arab states surrounding it, and start honest negotiations with the palestinian government.
israel does not recognize hamas. why should hamas recognize israel? the problem in the middle east stinks of israeli hypocrisy.
unfortunately, now not only gazans and west bankers, but also lebanese civilians are paying the price for israeli racism (most clearly articulated by its jim crow legal system). they are also paying the price for olmert's arrogance.
pity.
zionrules, you can be very sure that if that happened, ha'aretz or jpos would bring this immediately, which, thankfully, is not the case yet.
I am writing an article for the washington post about bloggers in lebanon and I would really appreciate your help.
I need to know more about the authors of this site, and it would be great if you could email me at quinlana@washpost.com
I look forward to hearing from you and hope for your safety.
Jad,
Have you seen pictures of Haret Hrayk? I cannot believe it! Leveled! Beyond the Hizballah square. Tears.. I look at the faces of those refugees in Sanayeh and it is all too clear that this will take at least another 60 years to repair...
Everyone,
I don't think this kind of conversation -- between the intelligent and open-minded citizens of both sides -- has happened in real-time like this in any war ever undertaken. Seeing the mutual understanding beginning to take place here (and at several other Lebanese blogs) gives all of us hope that Lebanon and Israel will soon live in peace. You truly are the future of your cultures!
I would urge the Israelis to try to organize groups to help in the economic reconstruction of Lebanon when this is all over. Speaking as an American, we went into Iraq in 2003, bombed what we did, and then proceded to start rebuilding the infrastructure (including the things we had just bombed). I hope that the people of Israel can follow suit in that regard -- that would be quite a show of good faith. And I hope the US joins them!
I am neither Arab nor Israeli -- just an observer from San Diego with a sister in our Army -- but I pray for the cease-fire to happen soon, and for the Lebanese people to be able to take back control of their country from Hezb and finish the Cedar Revolution the way it was supposed to be!
Many of us around the world would want to help in any way we can... Internet help, donations.... you name it!
Regards,
Japheth Cleaver
San Diego, CA
About names.
I would suggest "people of the region" or "People perspective" because I think we seek free discourse and investigation of human being over their situation.
Jad -- Eran's "the good fence" struck me well, although there's an implicit rejection of a one-state solution. (I'm not suggesting support for anything with that statement, merely that it potentially closes doors to creative discussion...)
That's the right track, though, I think. Local relevancy is important. (I'm not particularly helpful here, I know. I'm sorry... but you folks are really the only ones who can come up with something.)
Is there a particular former place, geographically, with a name that could be utilized? Someplace where the people have worked together well? (or at least, better?)
@ Japheth (SD, CA)
The world is changing infront of our eys but some of it ugli violent habbit still exist (out there in Lebanon, Gaza, and north of Israel).
This information medium let us open new ways of engament the "Goverments" cannot control and we can identify the Humans behins this "letter swapping" medium
jad:
how close to a description are you? still need input?
Jad - Perhaps, given the recurring focus on generational grievances, a name might be found that reflects a desire to reject the "sins of the fathers"?
Here's poetic for you:
This forum was born on Lebanesebloggers.blogpost.com during the war of July 2006. Israelis and Lebanese came together. Where there were rockets, we decided to talk. Where there was destruction we decided to create. Where there is chaos, we are daring to DREAM!
This forum was born on Lebanesebloggers.blogpost.com during the war of July 2006. Israelis and Lebanese came together, and were joined by the rest of the world. Where there were rockets, we decided to talk. Where there was destruction we decided to create. Where there was chaos, we dared to dream.
? slight changes
poetic is good.
A lebanonize friend told me that the HA were asked to put down their arms prior the kidnap that started all of this. can anyone confirm/reject this?
She explains the Kidnap as HA way to keep its position by kidnaping fighting israel and free prisoners, what do you think?
jad: re: google groups - yes - check your hotmail
The Day after is another question I have.
Lets assume that HA will stop bombing Israel, this is where Israel will have to stop becuase no imidiate therets will be on our civilians. Israely probably will do one last "cleanup" and then agree to the U.N. to stop (this is typical)
my question is what do you think Syria will do?
Since Lebanon will be very weak, Syran will return (it is good for its economy) and bring back the HA.
Do you think it can be happening, can israel/US/UN/THE WORLD can do anything to disable Syria from comming back to Lebanon?
jad
there's a problem with the group name -- google is confused as to whether it's holm/halom or holm-halom and that /- is causing problems posting etc...
christopher
jad
there's a problem with the group name -- google is confused as to whether it's holm/halom or holm-halom and that /- is causing problems posting etc... because the '/' character throws off google -- i would suggest renaming it HolmHalom or Holm.Halom or something without a /
christopher
hey guys -- give it about 5 min - it's being fixed now
Hmmmm... A conspiracy!
I managed to go into HolmHalom briefly and Lazarus... thank you for your words.
Both google groups are working, it looks like. One has to use "refresh" [F5], sometimes repeatedly, to view/post in either of the groups. Very odd.
Jad,
mitrii57@gmail.com, not mitrii57@google.com
mea culpa.
Z,
Were you a Wadi resident? Do you know the Cyber Wadi website?
Many Jews visit Lebanon. My friend (of the Silverstein clan) was there and in Damascus just recently. I don't think there would be any problem if you visit. I hope you do (well, not right now obviously).
From an American trapped behind the CNN wall -
Many, many thanks for the contributions of all in this discussion. There are many powerful parties arond the world that spend tremendous amounts of money on propaganda, infrastructure, and materiel to keep ongoing argument and discussion like this from taking place.
Perpetual, ongoing dialog like this is the real war on terror, the real war on aggression.
Sending my support for Lebanese solidarity. - an American
ok - so this is the group
http://groups.google.com/group/halomholm
it's up and running - sort of -- we think that maybe because it is new it's still kind of sifting through all the google servers -- which would explain why sometimes it comes up perfectly, and sometimes you get "group not found"
(either that or it's another grand conspiracy :> )
so anyway for now try to go use it, press F5 and refresh if you get that 'group not found' message (because it's there) and if it still is acting strange after 1/2 hour or so we'll figure something else out
chris
Jad, you can stop. Check out box's link.
I am in as Suha.
So, now we have 2 forums. Typical! LOL.
One for Lebanese (and supporters) and one for Israelis (and supporters)?
OK. So we're going with Box's forum!
La-Hayem (To life, literally!).
Sahhitkun (To your health)
Cheers!
box:
i think this was the most recent:
This forum was born on Lebanesebloggers.blogpost.com during the war of July 2006. Israelis and Lebanese came together, and were joined by the rest of the world. Where there were rockets, we decided to talk. Where there was destruction we desired to create. Where there was chaos, we dared to dream.
Box, I meant the google one and the invision one. Joke.
Here goes that paragraph:
This forum was born on Lebanesebloggers.blogpost.com during the war of July 2006. Israelis and Lebanese came together, and were joined by the rest of the world. Where there were rockets, we decided to talk. Where there was destruction we decided to create. Where there was chaos, we dared to dream.
PS: Holm and Halom mean "dream" in Arabic and Hebrew respectively.
If you do not like the idea, we can discuss it, zionrules. Nothing is written in stone. Sarcasm is not very constructive.
i wonder if someone with a blog called " burn lebe burn" will fit though (zionrules) ... there's enough trolling already.
I would *strongly* suggest a single forum -- otherwise what's the point?
Google Groups seems like a good enough neutral location for it all. Keep your communication open; concentrate on learning and coming to agreement on things, not on blame and regurgitation of your grandfathers' arguments.
If u ppl have brain in your head, tell you goverment to kick out the HIZZBALA... Duh !!! How a terror group controling a goverment??? What do you expect Israel to do? sit back and get bombed? Return Israel soldiers and quite will return... this is THAT easy.
Remember who much of your audience is on the "other side": average people probably just like yourself. I myself am such a person, though not part of this conflict. I agree with much you say here that those in charge of Lebanon need to do, as well as desiring to see Hezbollah crushed, yet what exactly do you think many of those here can do? How many of us vote in elections in our countries, usually picking the lesser of two evils so to speak, and we have very little influence over every decision our leaders make? I don't blame the Lebanese people in general for what has happened, that blame falls on Hezbollah and the weakness of the Lebanese government.
Just wanted to say that the events on this blog have been cited in Haaeretz newspaper (Doha you are famous).
Well Hebrew has pretty characters, just as Arabic does, but unless it's in English or Spanish I'm afraid it's all Greek to me (lil' joke). Is there a translation available anywhere? Thanks.
jad j, unfortunately i see no other tactical value of bombing the roads connecting southern with northern lebanon if the next step isn't a ground operation ... last time the israelis have donethis, the roads where not destroyed before, and many of the HA and other militant group members were able to flee to the north. i hope i'm wrong and you are right, but i'm not that convinced.
I tend to agree and many military analysts over here seem to think that as well. Of course it could be psychological, i.e. prepare the battlefield, let the other side know that you will come in if they do not act, etc. Beats me. Yet I do think if such does occur this will get ugly. I make no secret of the fact that I hope it will eradicate Hezbollah, but I'm not looking forward to the further loss of life on both sides. I pray an equitable solution can be found prior to invasion.
john,
http://www.haaretz.com
and if they didn't translate that specific topic, out of luck - haven't found a hebrew to english online translator yet. if anyone has one, please post.
~~~~~President Lahoud has officially claimed that he supports the "Resistance" and will not give up Sayyid Nasrallah.~~~~~
HUH???
Really? He supports Nasrallah??
Plzz someone answer me on this....
Tse.
To all new-comers, the newly created forum is:
http://z14.invisionfree.com/holmhalom/
It's not the same thing. Lahoud is the Head of State. When he speaks he speaks for Lebanon. He's not saying wants war, he's saying he supports the war, and will protect the leader of Hezbollah!
It does raise an interesting situation under international law, i.e. a Head of State endorsing a terrorist leader whose group was also part of the government and committed an act of war. Yet, how much? I do not know how Lebanon's power structure is set up, but in some countries with a president and a PM the former is only Head of State while the latter is Head of Government. Different from the US where the president here is both. If Siniora had done this than that would be more significant. Of course if he doesn't distance himself from Lahoud on this it could be serious.
"Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism is generally considered to mean support for Israel."
Err... And that's about it.
By this definition that means I'm a "Zionist", though I have little connection to the area. Heck given my growing affinity for Lebanon (thanks to the fascinating Maronites and of course the Cedar Revolution), guess I'm whatever-you-call-that. Eh, regardless I support both countries to an extent but this definition seems incomplete because though I love my own nation I certainly do not subscribe to Decatur's famous words of "my country right or wrong". I'm staunchly American that's true, but I'm Christian before that.
John the Washington Post is writing a story and I believe ABC NEWS are working on stories
Well as long as its in English or Spanish than I can follow along. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll be quite the ignorant American, or better yet the befuddled Englishman in "Indiana Jones & The Last Crusade" dropped off in Morocco I think looking for anyone who speaks English. lol. Sorry, tired feeling a bit rambly.
Thanks for the translation! Ok, now that I've come to the end of this very long comments section I seem to be all alone... Ah well, off to the new board!
i would like to hear the opinion of my fellow mirvat and Suha about this!!
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