Monday, July 17, 2006

Day 6: More Attacks



Ya Beirut! Ya Beirut, ya sit il dinyeh, ya Beirut!

The couple of hours of "rest" as I thought was just a sign for more brutality to come.

The IDF hit the airport yet again this morning. Hit the Beirut port and killed two civilians. Israeli fire did not spare the UNIFIL; an Indian soldier from UNIFIL stationed in Hawla on the Lebanese-Israeli border was wounded due to a hit from an IDF tank. Of course, more hits on the south, especially the city of Saida.

In return, Hizbullah showered Katyushas on Haifa and Nahariya.

The French Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, is heading to Lebanon in a show of solidarity with the Lebanese people.

British PM has called for a ceasefire. UN Secretary General Annan has called for an immediate ceasefire in order to dispatch an interntional military intervention force.

...and that's not even three hours from my last update!

Update: The Iranian Foreign Minister arrived to Damascus conveying a letter from Iran's President Ahmadinejad to President Assad.

Addendum: Israel is working with the US and EU to evacuate foreign nationals from Lebanon. It makes me think that the hits Lebanon is sustaining is a sign for all those who need to leave Lebanon to leave, before Israel completely isolates Lebanon from the rest of the world.

Update 2: It's confirmed, an IDF plane has fallen in Kfarshima, east of Beirut, and both of its pilots have died. The IDF is denying these reports.

An Israeli military source says that some Israeli troops are entering Lebanon by land.

I'm just hearing on TV the Israeli Army alerts to the civilians in the south. They're asked to evacuate to Beirut, because the southern border is considered now a war zone. The alert went to explain in Arabic that the reason for the shelling of the villages is because Hizballah is launching its attacks from there. It's scary listening to the alerts.

The sad part is that when people try to evacuate, they are hit. Just got news of a car completely buried under the rubble after Israeli warplanes hit a bridge in the south. Three died.

500 Lebanese have gathered in Dubai, UAE to call for the end of attacks.

Update 3: A building in Haifa has collapsed as result of the Katyusha rockets.

President Lahoud has officially claimed that he supports the "Resistance" and will not give up Sayyid Nasrallah.

Update 4: AlJazeera reported that the downed Israeli plane is a pamphlet container not an F-16 jet.

Update 5: The Iranian Foreign Minister called for a ceasefire and exchange of prisoners.

Hizbullah has refused to give in to Israel's conditions.

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

393 comments:

1 – 200 of 393   Newer›   Newest»
EdoRiver said...

It is amazing that you have such a romantic identification with a country that was made by the French. Perhaps this is a good sign that we can create identities out of thin histories. Lines drawn on the sand in 3 generations become objects of identity to die over. This could be used to create a united Middle East, Lebanese lead the way!!

box said...

more like - unjust aggression and oppression become principles to fight against.

i am encouraged by the french PM's trip there, and the demands for ceasefire. will israel defy the UN now? will israel defy europe? will they defy international law? or will they continue looking for an after-the-fact casus belli?

thx, doha, as always. i hope you can sleep a little more - i think these days are long enough for you without sleep deprivation! is your family ok, do you know?

Omer (israeli) said...

Good morning,
This is the news from Y-net about what happened. A cover up job? might be, but anyway this is what the IDF claims:

"Lebanese media reported three attacks in the city of Baalbek, in the northern Lebanon valley. It was reported that two UNIFIL posts in
southern Lebanon were attacked. According to the report, which was unconfirmed by other sources, an Indian soldier was injured in the attack. The IDF says it fired at a Hizbullah position adjacent to a UNIFIL position and that the IDF had asked the UNIFIL outpost to evacuate itself, while warning the population in the area.


The IDF also attack radar installations of the Lebanese army in naval bases in Tripoli in northern Lebanon and in the town of Abda. A Lebanese security force said nine Lebanese soldiers were killed in the attack and many others injured.


The IDF said the attack was carried out due to the fact that Hizbullah was using Lebanese army installation systems in order to attack IDF soldiers, such as the attack on the Navy ship on Friday."

Ohad said...
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John said...

I'm not sure that attacking this army installation in the north was smart, but then I'm just an outsider watching this mess unfold. It would appear that Israel does blame the Lebanese Army, rightly or wrongly:

Israel, technically at war with Lebanon since 1948, said it had targeted radar stations in the north because Hezbollah had used them to hit an Israeli ship on Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah.

"The attacks ... are against radar stations used, among other things, in the attack on the Israeli missile boat, by Hezbollah in cooperation with the Lebanese military," an Israeli army spokesman told The Associated Press.

The Associated Press

Some American military analysts believe that Israel is prepping the battlefield by completely isolating Lebanon in order to cut off Hezbollah and then invade to take them out. It appears that things are going to get even uglier. Dammit.

Jad J said...

edoriver... lebanon is as old as ancient Israel/palestine.

heck, Lebanon is even mentioned in the bible. But un-cultured people like ureself do not venture in history more than the 1900s.

Lebanon was attacked and occupied by way too many more powerful civilizations (just like Nebuchanezzra did with u, does that means Israel does not Exist, Does that mean Palestine does not exist just becoz u were occupied?). If the current borders were specified by the french in 1921, it doesnt mean it wasn't there before. Germany's border before and after WWII are different, does that means it didnt exist before that. Stupid ignorant!!!

I can refute this absurd theory of yours for ages. In addition u silly moron, which country was working on spreading democracy and peaceful transition from totalirian regime to Democracy in the arab world... oh let me guess... Israel with Kadima policy? read u silly arse.. read... there is a difference between educated and Cutltured people!!!

Oh, lemme guess ure next answer... We saw where democracy brought u with hizbullah? Read my previous comments... and we also saw ure policy with the palestinians for the past half a century... u judge us for a 1 year work, while we u dont judge ureself for half a century of work!
Moron!

Omer (israeli) said...

John, I hope your wrong.
We keep punishing the Lebsnese people, nothing good can come for it.
I favour a diplomatic solution. And im quite sure that at the end of the day there will be one.

Jad J said...

John... no major land battle will occur, as a non-military analyst i already know that destroying bridges and roads will make a land battle a loosing battle especially with a dug in enemy. the only land battle ure gonna see are PsyOps!

Dont believe the military, this is part of their Psychological war and intimidation!

John said...

Could be, I dunno. God keep you all, I have to leave for work. Hopefully the news will be better when I return this evening.

Omer (israeli) said...

Jad J, I think your right. But i also think Israel will evantully lead a ground strike om the south, but i don't think it will lead to occupation. Limited army opertion.
But the outcome might be unbarble for both sides.

sub Rosa said...

Omer, the purpose is to eradicate Hizbullah, not to punnish the Lebanese. They are a threat not only to us, but also to Lubnan. Diplomacy won't work with them zealots, as we've seen in the past.

Alon said...

If u ppl have brain in your head , tell you goverment to kick out the HIZZBALA... Duh !!!

How a terror group controling a goverment???

What do you expect Israel to do?

sit back and get bombed?

Return Israel soldiers and quite will return... this is THAT easy.

Omer (israeli) said...

sub rosa, you can't do one without the other.

Jad J said...

yesterday i saw 2 chinooks over the sea... i dont know if they are for the american embassy (which is next to me) or IDF's, but a large scale land battle on the south will delay the army redeployement and UN force in the south. and that is what the international powers are all after. so i think the land battles will be fought with commando teams and intelligence on the ground guiding airstrikes. and IF the IDF decided to go for a land battle.. with too much objectivity i'm afraid to tell u its going to be very costly for the IDF, and they know it. in addition to having the freedom to prepare the south for this mayhem for 6 years, Hizbollah can now ambush the land forces in the bottlenecks created by the destruction of roads and bridges. and even the airsuperiority wont help them, they'retrained for this...

Jad J said...
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Jad J said...

damn, i should save all our discussions in previous posts so that everytime a newcomer joins us, i just copy paste WHY THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT KICK HIZBULLAH AT THE MOMENT!!! and that we weren;t sitting idle during the past year!!

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Just wanted to say that the events on this blog have been cited in Haaeretz newspaper (Doha you are famous). Maby this dialogue we started in the midst of the fighting and violence is a sign of hope for our tow people. The openess and doemocratic nature is a common thread between lebanese and Israelis. I've been touring Lebanon via googe earth (the resolution is excelant) and I hope it wont be to long that i will be able to walk in a Beirut or Ski in the lebanese mountains. Never give up hope. Oh and btw yesterday i was in the Technion in Haifa in the morining when the missiles came (exams were cancelled). It was a very unpleasent experience. i cant mgaine to begin thinking what you guys in Beirut are going through. Lets keep this blog running for as a positive symbol for the future.

Jad J said...

eran tel-aviv can u give us a link?

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Jad, I saw it in the hebrew hard copy version. It appears in the economu section of all things?? called The Marker.The text is in hebrew but you can see the link to lebanese bloggers.
Best and keep safe.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=739181&contrassID=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=0

s03a03 said...

hello Doha,
do you feel Franch or International intervantion will help ending the present conflict ? after all bouth cuntries had thier shear and it does sounds like a good run a way ?
i wonder if there is an active contur-Hizbala oposition in Lebanon. yesterday in Tel Aviv there was a left wing demonstration callning to ceasfire, i cant say they had a lot of sucsses, but latly the voices con are raisen, i wonder if they will ever be raise in Lebanon as well.

mono said...

jad j, unfortunately i see no other tactical value of bombing the roads connecting southern with northern lebanon if the next step isn't a ground operation ... last time the israelis have donethis, the roads where not destroyed before, and many of the HA and other militant group members were able to flee to the north. i hope i'm wrong and you are right, but i'm not that convinced.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Can some body pinpoint where the dahya quarter is located. I was looking at goole earth on Beirut and i found the airport and the new sport complex. Where is the hizbullah stronghold (or was)?

Jad J said...

if they entangle HA in the south, and deploy enough UAVs, and since the lebanese landscape is small ( i guess it take 30 minutes for a heli to cross the border from east to west) they can spot every movement. especially if hizbullah launch the missiles, they willbe easily spotted. so for every missile launched, a heavy shelling targets the area, at least thats the startegy they are using, i know its costly in Israel, but thats the best strategy in terms of military casualties. and to reinforce my analysis, I think the reason IDF is warning some villages to evacuate is the fact that Hizbullah are operating from around those villages so IDF suspect that small rocket caches are hidden in those villages.
As for the big threatening missiles, they cant be launched on israel, the road destruction isolated the 3 main bases of dangerous missiles cache, if not already destroyed (kosaya, Nehmeh, Hermel) which are bases occupied by Palestinians.

Now u didnt mention why the IAF are targeting Gas Stations:
1- they deployed a surveilance net above lebanon using UAVs, Balloons, F16s and probably satellite imaging.
2- Limited all mobility of trucks in Lebanon: either by targeting roads linking industrial areas, linking leb to syria or blockade the ports, this tactic reduced the movement of any truck, so which trucks are still moving? Gastanks Trucks (citerne in french :P ), so they target several gas stations around the three bases to scare the gas companies from distributing gas into that region.
3- the big threatening missiles cannot be transported by cars, Donkeys or even Pickups. They need trucks.

So obviously, they have crippled the transportation of those missiles that escaped their bases, destroyed the sources, and now waiting for the small batteries to surface. when those are destroyed, militants are insignificant at this stage as the priority threat is destroyed. after that, there are too many options.

Jad J said...

@ eran,
Dahyeh is located between the ariport, the sport stadium and a bit to the south.

Jad J said...

oh i forgot to add that IAF also targeted some industrial complexs with no military value to increase the fear from transporting goods (with trucks).

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

thanks Jad.
Your tactical and strategic analysis appears excellant. If you no that that a lot of others no that especially the idiot Nazrallah. Than what the hell did he think he was doing with the kidnapping. Was he so stupid after the first kidnapping in Gaza of gilad Shalit that put the whole of Israel in to termoil that he would pull the lion's tail and not get eaten? We in Israel had a twisted repsect to him even thuogh he was the enemy but now we think he is really an Iranian puppet used cynically by Teheran to remove the nuclear agenda from the g8 meeting. To bad for Lebanon's sane people to embrace him politicaly especially After the Beirut spring where you kicked out the Syrians.

Shmulik said...

JAD J you say "fact that Hizbullah are operating from around those villages"
This contradicts an earlier post saying that the Hizballah loves lebanese so much that they won't use your civilians as shields.
if you say we have UAVs, sattelites and many other intel resources, wouldn't it be logical for the Hizballah to hide among the civilians?

sub Rosa said...

jad J, indeed you're holding a double sword: you're damned if you try to mess with Hizbullah, you're damned if you don't. I just think you need to weigh and decide what's more dangerous for you. I think Israel is trying to help you find the answer. sadly, it's being done the hard way, but hopefully something will come out of it. hopefully, France and the USA will help build everything from the start, instead of Iran and Hizbullah, like the last time (the rebuilding, after all, is one of the reasons they got so strong).

Mirvat said...
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Mirvat said...

Israel is killing us to save us, same way bush killed iraqis to save them right?

define terror for me again please? i for once am terrified and and so are all the lebanese people. hitting wheat reserves is not cutting HA off, it is cutting the people off and destroying the lebanese race. terror? no?
massacres targeting whole villages and burning people alive, terror? maybe not?
cutting off electricity, all means to run away, phone lines, evacuating the whole country of all the non-lebanese souls while we watch getting the message that no chance we will survive. terror?
asking us to disarm a power that you (with your superior military power, compared to the lebanese government with its non-existing army) can hardly handle, knowing that we can't and killing us anyway.. terror? not yet?
all the lebanese prisoners of war that HA is trying to get back through exchange with 2 prisoners of yours.. 2=100's, is the equation, is how much we're worth. are you a super-race.. familiar? Nazis? terrifying isn't it?
that's terror.

i am a moderate liberal Lebanese person, who hated HA. i do not condone using the borders of my country for any operation not supported by the government (like taking 2 prisoners in the hope of exchange for hundreds).
i also do not condone killing and terrorizing millions of people for the sake of revenge.
FOR THAT IS TERROR
as i write this, civilians dying trying to run away while israel's raid destroyed the bridge.

sub Rosa said...

virvat, see it this way:
1. Hizballah (HA) built a state within a state, and then swalloed Lebanon.
2. HA, which is basically Lebanon, attacked Israel in its borders.
3. Israel is striking back.

Stop blaming the whole world for the situation. You let HA take over your country, and now you're paying for it. I, as an Israeli, have no joy of seeing Lebanese people get hurt. I have nothing against you. But I also know I have no choice but to give you a decent slap and to shake you all over, because you're having a hard time taking responsibility - and taking back control over your country.

Shmulik said...

Mirvat I don't know if you have read my pervious post but here goes:
even after the withdrawl in 2000 Hizballah has repeatedly attacked soldiers and civilians INSIDE Israel. This means war. Maybe you think otherwise but the Israeli believe that hizbalah nder iranian leadership would never disarm. As long as you didn't pay a price your goverment would talk to them forever while only israel pays the price. To top it off the Hizballah uses your civilians to shield themselves, they use your roads and airports to transport personal and weapons. We try To hit the Hizballah but we know civilians will be hit. The Hizballah has pushed us to a sitiuation that we have to choose between our and your civilians. Call it teroism if it makes you feel better but in the end you can't let a terroist state within a state blossom in your backyard and not be cruelly affected by it.

Mirvat said...

HA is not a terrorist group. HA was founded in response to your occupation of lebanon. your invasion in 1982.
they resort to any means they have to defend their land. they blow themselves up for the lack of other means. for them it is better to die than to see you occupying our country.
if HA is terrorist based on your definition (or that of bush), so would be the palestinian children hitting your tanks with rocks to resist the opression and the injustice you put them through.
the children of the intifada don't die. they are in all of us.
and a country never dies.

Jad J said...

@eran tel-aviv
well that is what i was hoping to discuss with all the bloggers on this blog. I wanted to start a discussion where everyone contributes some information to know whats behind this kidnap from one side, and the excess usage of power from the other side.

I started first by trying to analyse the stock market in ISrael, Dubai and US using technical analysis tool to see if there was any "smart money" leaving the market before july 12, which means that they knew that this was going to happen and therefore have a basis to start our theory. but unfortunately, all my financial softwares are at the office and i cant go there now, so if someone uses technical analysis or have access to such tools, i'll be glad to guide him/her.

As for the political catalisator behind this attack/retribution which is from both sides unprecedented, i mentioned yesterday i have a conspiracy theory, but would be glad to hear ure own analysis (ure= all of u, not just one side, i would like to hear OMER, Soha, Doha, box, john, sagi and all the rest as i realised each has his own political direction therefore, the summary of our analysis will not be biased)

@Shmulik
they do not use human shields, they operate from outside and not inside the villages, and i'll be damned if they use big cities like Tyr or Saida (that got heavily bombed by the AIF).
Man i know my country, i lived in the south, i know whats in there, and u probably noticed by now how much i try to be objective rather than start throwing blames all over the blog. I know my country like u know ures, do i tell u how IDF works inside israel?

@ Subrosa,
We're not worried about the material damage, lebanon has lots of friends, it will be rebuilt probably with less corruption this time also, but what we're worried about are expressed by Mirvat!!!!

u saw the pictures or do i have to give u the link again?
http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3
tell me where are hizbullah from a car on the highway ONE family inside! did the civilians die and hizbullah militants saved by an energy shield, or better, they are Jedis. That car (one example) was hit by a rocket, torn to pieces, do u see any hizbullah militants in them... its just an excuse made by the military to justify human casualties and so the 1000's demonstration wont be a 1,000,000 demontration like in lebanon. when are u going to wake up and look at the facts rahter than believe the media.

Dr Victorino de la Vega said...

Bushmert doesn’t care about “collateral damages”: someone who enthusiastically destroyed Bagdad, the former capital of an empire stretching from Spain to India, won’t have second thoughts about razing a small Arab city-state with no oil to steal.

The Arab League and its Saudi and Egyptian “pillars” did nothing for Iraq in 2003, even though TeX-Aviv was then exclusively targeting their fellow Sunni Arabs…

Don’t expect the Wahhabi collaborators of Riyadh to lift a finger for Lebanon.

Three days ago, the house of Saud sent a crystal clear message to Bushmert- a man who appreciates “moral clarity” whatever that means:

“The massacre can continue. Please Sahib President, make sure Yahweh’s glorious air force destroys in priority Beirut, the South, and the Beqaa valley. Allah blesses you. Saudi Arabia is your friend. You can always count on us. The Supreme Council of the Riyadh ‘Ulamas is praying day and night for your victory. We love you Mr. President. Allah loves you.”

Shmulik said...

Sub-Rosa please don't be cruel. It's hard being reasonable when your family is bombed.
Mirvat you have asked why we don't want a prisoner exchange. there are two reasons:
1) each time Israel is weak and deals to get kidnapped people back it causes another kidnapping (example 2000 prisoner exchange with Hizballah).
2) Kuntar and other men in Israeli Jail are bloody terroists (kuntar bashed a little girl's head with his rifle) that had been (mostly) tried and convicted by court. The captured soldiers are innocents taken from inside our birders.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Mirvat
I sympthaize with you patriotism but you are doing yourself an ill service. What occupation are you talking about? Dont tell me it's shaba farms....For heaven's sakes thats the border between lebanon and the Golan hights - de jure syria de facto Israel. How is it that up to now there is no demarcated border between syria and lebanon? How is it that there is on syrian ambassador in Beirut? The reason is simple and you no it - Syria sees lebanon as part of greater syria just like it see's israel as southern syria. Lebanon was raped for years by the syrians and their trustworthy friends. It stopped last year with the Beirut Spring. How long ago was it that the airport highway had posters of Hafez Assad and Khomeini as the welcome sign for Lebanon? Who was it that supported Syria? It was nazrallah and his "organised" demonstrations that almost cruched your vlevet revolution. Regarding the prosiners - do you know who Quntar is and what did he do - he wass recruted by the PLO and massacered in cold blood a father and 2 children when he raided Nahariya in the sventies....Do you really sympathise with scum like that?

Shmulik said...

mirvat again you take a awfully one sided view. Do you know the hizballah repeatedly attacked our cities with rockets?
Do you know they blew up a jewish building in Buenoss-aires killing 92 men?
While we were in Lebanon they were at best a guerilla organization with a teroist wing. After 2000 (our withdrawl) they are trroists by any defenition.

Mirvat said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
sub Rosa said...

jad j, the Israeli stock market is actually not in that bad of a shape. yesterday we even had many "Ups".

I'm also worried about the human cassualties. But let me ask you this: has Jezine been hit? has the Shuf region been hit? Marg Ayun? towns and villages that do not harbor Hizballah are spared. The IDF is having a very hard time finding the Katiusha launchers because they are small and quick (often shot from backyards). Due to that fact, there is a new order: a house that will be used for launching rockets will be destroyed. The lesson: don't let Hizballah near you. you, alone, arent strong enough. but if a muchtar or other villge leaders cooperate and say no - I trust they won't get in. It's the population that is colaborating with HA that is allowing them to remain strong.
Israel has apparently decided to "educate" the people of Lebanon that it may perhpas be dangerous not to cooperate with HA, but it's even more dangerous to cooperate with HA. It's sad, but for the zillion time, there seems to be no other way.

Jad J said...
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sub Rosa said...

Mivrat, you see what you wnat to see. Hizballah is bad news 4 Lubnan, and not just because of Israel. They are Islamic zealots that are trying to drag your country to the middle ages, when Lebanon is the most modern Arab society!
I can understand the resenment to Israel, but how can you have respect for them? can't you see them for what they are? the whole world can see, but you're so sunk into the Arab propoganda that tought you all your life that the Zionists are Satan. While Israel made mistakes in Lebanon, the reality is much different from the world's point of view...

Jad J said...

@ Mirvat,
Although i'm lebanese, really, do u think that Kuntar is a hero? thats what the Hizbullah and syrian regime propaganda did.

If we are to act from the same concept, we should kidnap dozens if not hundreds of Syrian soldiers, with whom we have no blue borders, no diplomatic relations, especially that the lebanese prisoners in syrian prisons are not recognized of, the redcross is not allowed there, and their conditions are so miserable, just go to any SOLID mother at the UNESCO and she'll tell u.

What hizbullah did was irrational.
some criminals are better in jail.
as those F16 pilots killing entire families in the south, so did Kuntar!
they made a hero out of Kuntar to justify their continous aggression as seniora;s government was leaving them with less and less excuses to fight from across the broders.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Mirvat! and you call yourself a liberal? I dont support hurting civilans. HA is targeting civilans as we speak. I was yesterday n Haifa when the missles fell in the train depo. the IAF is not targetting civilians it targets HA strongholds and propganda like EL Manar which is a cynical and destorted media - not a liberal one. HA wants pan islmaism not democracy. Lebanon and Israel are the only trure democratic nations in the ME. Know that we are attacked from both fronts by rckets from Lebanon and Gaza - both after we left every square inch of territory and when our PM is supporting a unilateral withdrawl from most of the West bank. But extremests like hamas and hizbullah thrive on sadness, and vilonce and terror. They dont want peace and stability only chaos. You should not be part of their prpoganda machine - as a liberal

Jad J said...

@sub rosa...

I'm not referring to the down or ups of the market, i;m referring to the "smart money".
Smart money = money of politically connected, regionally connected investors.
there are tools like the MFI which can show u if BEFORE the 12th of july, a group of investors started selling or buying without any "APPARENT" reason.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Mirvat,

I know it may sound hypocritical coming out of an Israely, but I'm truly sorry for all the civilian loss of life in Lebanon.

But please allow me to give you my point of view on this war:

Unlike many other people here, I'm not going to blame your goverment for not doing enough against HA. I understand full well your fear of another civil war. I'm positive disarming HA was very high on your PM's wish list, in order to avoid a situation just like the one we having now. No country in the world, NONE, would wish to have a semi autonomous - hell, drop the "semi" - army operating from their territory if they could stop it.

However, Israel is in a simliar no-other-choice situation: We cannot allow hostile Iranian forces on our northern border - certainly not with a likely US/Iran conflict in the near future.

So your country is devestated, and your people are dying in a war that isn't even theirs. I think that was Lebanon tragedy for many, many years now.

As for the specifics, Israel is cutting Lebanon off in order to stop arms and ammo shipments from abroad (read: Iran, perhaps Syria). Communication lines and internal roads are disrupted so that HA forces will have a harder time moving around and organizing.

I assure you Israel tries very, very hard to minimize civilian casualties. Forget about the moral reasons - and they ARE a factor - we plan for Lebanon (with international assistance) taking control of all the country, and have NOTHING to gain by killing innocents and turning potential future allies into bitter enemies.

If any of you are interested in a deeper analysis, you're welcome to visit my Blog.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

And what about Ron Arad who is missing since 1987 and Nazrallah promissed as part of the deal in 2004 to find out aobut his fate? What about 4 soldiers who are missing since 1982 in Sultan yakub battle? Every coin has two sides you suold always remeber that. Most of the priosners who are in jail in Israel are condemmed terrorists who assisted in bus bombings.

Shachar said...

Hey.
I'm an IDF soldier stationed at the Lebanonis border, but got back home for a funeral of someone I knew.

We can't see all the bombing on Lebanon here from Israel (naturaly we're focusing on bombs at Israel), so you're pretty much updating me on what's going on.

I don't want to start arguing about who's right and who's wrong, the finaly word is that it's not right that civilians get hurt in the process, from both sides.

I'm sending you my best wishes from here, and hope that you and your family will be strong and be alright until this horrible situation will be over.

Shachar.

sub Rosa said...

ah... jad. I C. you mean like what Bin Laden did B4 9/11... well, that's a very interesting thing that should be checked in Lebanon. Israel didn't plan anything, so its a bit irrelevant.
But I wonder if HA and Syrian/Iranians made any irregular movement in the market B4 July 12. If you find anything, please share! you have my email too...

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

There wre Missles on Haifa again 20 min ago - fortunately nobody got hurt.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Jad - here is for conspiracy - TV ch 10 says there were Katyusha in southern Golan Hights thats is close to Jordan - what exactly is the strateic imprtance for HA there? If only to support Syria.

Omer (israeli) said...

Sagi said:
"As for the specifics, Israel is
cutting Lebanon off in order to stop arms and ammo shipments from abroad (read: Iran, perhaps Syria). Communication lines and internal roads are disrupted so that HA forces will have a harder time moving around and organizing"

hundreds of civilians crossed over to syria to escape the onsloght, do you really israel can control weapons comming in? for that u'll need israeli troops on the syrian border, and even then it will difficult without proper inteligence. the land border is too big.

Sagi (Israel) said...

I'd like to begin a new discussion here - under the somewhat hopeful headline: "After the shooting stops, how are we going to stop this war from happening again?"

Not only do I believe it's more conductive than a "you hit my train station/you hit my airport" exchange - it can prove very enlightning, as I think most Israelies and Lebanese lack a good understanding of the political situation and the general mindset in the other country.

God knows I do, although I've been reading up on Lebanon quite a lot on the last few days. Heh. Beats studying for my Biochem test.

And who knows? If we can reach some sort of conclusion or at the very least better mutual understanding... We'd share with our friends who tell their friends... One small step at a time. :)

Mirvat said...

sagi
why do you think israel should automatically be involved in a US/Iran war. will you guys also be fighting a war that's not yours on your land because as HA/IRAN/SYRIA is one front, the US/Israel is the same front?

Sagi (Israel) said...

Well Omer, I certainly believe Israel can keep an eye on the limited number of border checkpoints between Syria and Lebanon. While small arms and ammo can be smuggled on foot, you'd need some kind of semi-heavy vehicle in order to smuggle in rockets and launchers, which I think are currently the main concern.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

There are rumors in the media that a fighter plane has been shot down by the Leb Army and that it's base near baabbda in joumhur was attacked....Can anybody confirm?

More falls in Haifa. Air sirens are sounding.

when will this end....

Jad J said...

@ sub rosa,
No not Bin laden, usually, some highly connected governement officials know about such things before they happen, sometimes they are into this themselves, so what i'm trying to do if in the concerned significant markets (Israel, Saudi arabia,Dubai, Egypt, US, France, NO Lebanon nor syria nor Iran becoz there is not REAL market there) there was some strange selling. If there was, then someone knew that this will happen before the kidnapping of the 2 soldiers and before the colossal retaliation of israel. And we are wayyyyyy past the irrefutable fact that Syria and Iran are behind the kidnapping, i'm trying to look for a bigger picture.

@ ern tel-aviv, yes lebanon is always the playground of his neighbours, and this is a very clear example. Hizbullah wants to "Liberate" every land in the middle east at the expense of lebanese, while no other middle east country ever did something similar to us ever.

TO EVERYBODY, I just received TWO very very very disturbing news, and it contradicts what i've been trying to say for the last couple of days:

1- There is a christian village in the south (Ayn Ibil) surrounded by shii'a villages. it is receiving all refugees from that area becoz it is not considered as a Hizbullah area, therefore, Shii'a from around the countryside are pouring there. But it got shelled 2 days ago, and is being since, and i've been warning some people here that there will be another "Kana massacre" in Ayn Ibil becoz the IAF will be lured there to make the same mistake. Now a few minutes ago, a priest from Ayn Ibil who came to beirut to take medical supplies to the refugees up there since the civil services cannot reach it, he said that Hizbullah are entering the village with Pickups mouted with rocket launchers, shooting towards israel, then leaving. I might tend to disbelieve him although he is a priest and he has no reason at all to lie about such a thing but, the second news is:
2- I received news that Hizbullah militants are leaving the Dahyeh and trying to enter West Beirut, a mainly Sunnii area, and provoke the IAF from there, But unfortunately, icannot confirm that news with hard evidence at the moment, i request from West Beirutees to keep their eyes open.

The reason for this kind of behavior is the fact that non-shii'a areas are still Relatively safe, and are mainly against supporting hizbullah, therefore, if those areas were attacked, it would strenghen Nasrallah's position for obvious reasons.

I hope this is not true or else the events will unfold some catastrophic consequences.

as for the good news, Israel launched a Mossad Hounddog team to locate Nasrallah and terminate him. hope they find him soon !!!

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Jad,

I thibk the IDF has learned a lot since Kana and they are very very careful not to bomb uncessarily. Also the observations would probably see that refugees are flocking in to the christan village. I hope nothing bad will happen.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Mirvat,

Apart from past history teaching us a toppling hostile regime DID shoot its missiles at Israel (see the first Iraq war), dragging Israel into the conflict sadly makes perfect sense from the Iranian point of view. I'll go one step further. If I were in their shoes, and the US was attacking me, I'd blast Israel with all I've got:

The US needs support from Arab countries bordering Iran, not least in order to isolate it from getting supplies (or foreign assistance, god forbid - that's WW3 for sure). With Israel embroiled in the war, it will be much MUCH harder to gain that support.

Actually, to get us back into the current conflict, I firmly believe Iran "turned HA on" just now for that very reason, and I know that particualr belief is shared by most all military analysts out there.

sub Rosa said...

The story in Ayn Ibil is very bad news + the story about West Beirut. I pray the Sunis and Christians are strong enough to turn them down.

Jad J said...

yes the airplane shot down is confirmed:
1- with a ground-air missile
2- Leb army does not have such missiles
3- raises more concerns about point TWO in my last comment as the plain was shot in a NOT-Shii'a territory.

Although isreali officials are denying that it was an F16!!!

lets see how this unfolds!
Sagi, hold on to that thought, i'm with u on it, hope many others are... lets just see what will happen with the airplane issue!

sub Rosa said...

IDF is denying that a plane was brought down.

benj said...

raises more concerns about point TWO in my last comment as the plain was shot in a NOT-Shii'a territory.

Tehe solution could be local self-defence force or munitipal police force, composed of locals. Which should operate only in it's home area. They can prevent unwanted visitors.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

IAF denies completely all rumors about a fighter jet being shot down.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Hmmm. Well, I guess this could be used as a test-case for which side's propoganda is more trusty...

Omer (israeli) said...

eran, to early to tell. The Hizballah insist they sucseded, The IAF denys for now, in less then an hour we will all know the truth.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Make that "trustworthy"

Jad J said...

update on the news i mentioned above:

Lebanese army has closed all access from Shii'a areas and stopped several attempt of incursions from Bekaa valley through the mountains to the Jbeil-Betroun mountains "Jroud Jbeil" so that the insurgents won't implicate the "safe areas" in the fight!

Omer (israeli) said...

In any case Hiz' did shoot a missile

lubnan3amtibki said...

sagi- we have many channels covering in our region and we know which ones are trustworthy and which ones aren't by now.

lubnan3amtibki said...

jad are they also keeping out civilians? how can they tell the difference.

sub Rosa said...

another attack on Haiha a minute ago. The "plane" in Beirut is a container of pamplets.

lubnan3amtibki said...

where are you guys getting your news from? any good internet sites to get latest updates?

Sagi (Israel) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Omer (israeli) said...

lubnan3amtibki, the only trustworty source here is if there will be a funarl or not. If a pilot died or captured everyone in israel will know.

But in the case of the israeli ship: at the begining israel said it was hit "light", and Hiz said its drowning.

Neither was correct in the end. the ship wasn't hit "light" (4 dead) and didn't sink either. It was reparid and was sent back.

Mirvat said...

i haven't talked politics since this whole thing started. as part of our united front strategy to stay alive as lebanese, we are just focused on the cease fire and on the atrocities of the war.

but i'm really interested in your analysis sagi
i do believe iran is using the arabic card. i said the first day that HA is stepping in to take the role of arafat. arafat had the palestinan cause which is, at least for show, undebatable in terms of support for the arabic rulers. he fed on it and used it while he kept selling dreams to the palestinians who just wanted to live. he gave them illusions. you do understand that within this same logic israel is the reason palestine is in this position in the first place. that's why when the palestinians finally saw through arafat, to them he was an asshole but israel was still the enemy.
now as for lebanon, these same arabic rulers lack the same enthusiasm for lebanon and don't feel they owe lebanon like they did palestine. so again, i can understand israel not wanting to have HA on its borders in case a USA-Iran war erupted. why would Iran push HA to do something like that now? they know they won't get the arabic support so what's the point?
also sagi, why the touristic ports, why a hospital, why the wheat reserves?

eran, i think the qana "mistake" was already done in marwa7een. "mistake" meaning not media friendly story, if not committing a mistake meaning strategic hits sparing civilians i think a lot of mistakes have been done already.

Sagi (Israel) said...

That's good news, Jad, though it certainly does up the ante on the "civil war" angle...

lubnan3 - that was not meant as a disparagement on your news coverage - it was (and still is) a serious question...

Jad J said...

i dont know.. thats what i heard on the news... but refugees cannot be confused with heavily armed guerillas, coz if they didnt bring their weapon with them, where can they find Anti-air, anti-ship missiles in Jbeil :P,,,, i dunno.. the army has its ways... they cannot completely seal it off, but they can at least shoot down anyone shooting at the air, since the Army received orders not to shoot on the skies!

lubnan3amtibki said...

so i guess you have to post your news and we post ours and the truth is gonna be somewhere inbetween :)

sub Rosa said...

mmm... maybe it was a plane? what are they saying in Lebanon?

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Jad. what you say about infiltrations to sunni and christian areas is so typical of the cynicsm of HA and after the speach of Nazrallah yesterday I'm not surprised. I hope your friends in Ein Aybl have mainained there ties with their friends on the other side of the border as it was several years ago so that they will not be harmed. Whats is more sisturbing is that HA s in fact driving Lebanon in to a renwed sectarian conflict with all the terrible consequences. I hope the Leb Army is string enough to appose them.

lubnan3amtibki said...

i hope their methods work jad and they don't end up caging innocent civilians and depriving them from a safe refuge

Suha said...

Good afternoon everyone,
Lots of interesting discussions going on here. I am afraid I have work to do, so hope to catch up with it later.

I just found a few blows aimed at me in my absence in the last post ;)

Shmulik, I am sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to. It is striking though, that you justify everything the IDF does when we on the receiving end see all the mistakes it makes.

Regarding attacking army posts, I stick to my position. There were lots of misunderstandings in the discussion in the last post, and I thank Jad for clearing up some of the points in my absence. I was mainly saying that the army does not cooperate with Hizballah (as Jad pointed out, Hizballah are better equipped than the army). There are different ways to employ RADAR. As for the C-802, Shmulik, ya Shmulik, it is indeed RADAR guided as you say. But it is itself equipped with an inertial and terminal active RADAR. i.e.
When entering the terminal phase of flight, the missile switches on its terminal guidance radar to search for the target.

I have found this information on Wikipedia then double checked it on strategycenter.net (if you find info to the contrary, please share). If true, I am sure IDF knows that. I am of the opinion that targeting army posts is of no strategic importance. It is a demoralizing campaign and an attempt to further justify the attack on Lebanon (Look! The army is helping them!). It might also be designed to force the Lebanese army into one position or the other. Whichever it is, it is a grave mistake.

Jad J said...

i doubt the plane is manned my friends, looking at the pictures, the wings are too small for an F16, lets hope its not or the IAF will get more furiated :S and some sick extremists in the arab world will start shooting bullets in the air !!! GRRRRR

lubnan3amtibki said...

one site says israeli f16 down in east beirut. I think i translated it right. my arabic is not too good

sub Rosa said...

One of the missiles made a direct hit in a Haifa building. Fear for many casualties.

Omer (israeli) said...

i'm listening now to news, they say this:

1. No aircraft is missing so reported the IAF.

2. Beirut citizens saw a flaming ball fall from the sky, in west beirut. I guess someone will have to check out what fell inorder to make sure what it was.

Mitrii said...

It can be a drone. Then the heavy bombing of this place is understandable as ours would like to destroy it. Still (10 minutes ago) IDF denies it.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

A three story residential building has collapsed in Haifa after a missle hit it.

Jad, is the area where the jet spposedely fell christian or moslem?

Jad J said...

a rather good/sad news:

a high israeli official said that hizbullah is too strond to be destroyed with a military only operation, and they expect a cease fire in a few days. On the other hand, i think Hizbullah now will be SEVEREEEEELLLYYYY weakened politically in lebanon... lets wait and see....

but if a demonstration will be called for then, search for me on the front line :D

lubnan3amtibki said...

my source says confirmed. and it was in east beirut not west

Suha said...

Eran,

I think it was you asking about location of things in Lebanon. Check this out. We try our best to keep it updated, but it is such a whirlwind of events!

* If you have google earth, you can also just open the part of the link beginning with "http" in Add... Network link.

Mirvat said...

soha, i think it's another way to force our army to work against HA. same strategy used with the civilians, help us kill them or we kill you, which is most of the commentators are surprisingly supporting "we have to do it"
sub rosa says, we don't want to punish the lebanese as funny as that is, then says in her cute words "slap you and shake you over"
as in murder you and your children.

sub Rosa said...

* Building in Haifa that was hit was three stories high apparently. It collapsed on its residents.
* Al Jazeera showed video of missiles launched to plane. In LBC insisting it's a plane. Lebanese radio saying it's a two seat plane.
* Sirens in Haufa right now!!

Jad J said...

its mainly christian... and a stronghold for the lebanese army. actually next to my Aunties house, trying to call her but cant get through. nothing serious to her but just want to know if they can see anything (newshunger)

Lebanese high official says its not an F16.

Damn, they are trying to implicate non-Shii'a areas :S:S

damn it looks serious in Haifa...
in addition, thank god we have no sirens, they are just nerve killing :S:S, i prefer to hear the missile hit rather than hear that terrible sound!!! somebody shut it off, trust me, the missiles wont sound so frustrating :) except when they hit of course :( (damn how much war creates twisted sense of humour)

sub Rosa said...

reports from IDF: the "plane" was a missile that collapsed. that may explain the big fire and smoke.

Omer (israeli) said...

Direct hit on a story building in haifa. To early to tell the number of casulties. I fear the death toll, thank god i dont have family there.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Defence minister denies that a plane fell....at least that.
Mirvat, about marwaheen - i read in the paper today that it was a terrible mistake what happened was that the minibus stopped in the miidle of nowhere and the peopale started coming out and the army observations thought it was HA militants. The IDF said it was sorry for this incidence.
Suha, thanks (:

Jad J said...

well is there anyway we can know who's from where... like for example who's now west beirut, who's in tripoli, who's in haifa.... since we're in this all together...

I'm from Awkar, an area about 5 km north of beirut, near the american embassy. relatively safe area, though if Hizbullah decided to target the embassy, it wont be so safe anymore.

Those damn syrians are ripping off all the arabs leaving lebanon!!!!

Suha said...

Nothing on Future TV reagarding the fallen object (aliens?). Just reports from different places in the south, including Marji'youn and the refugees it is taking. I have family there...

Hope no casualties in Haifa.

sub Rosa said...

* Report in Sky news: ground forces entered Lebanon.
* Direct hit to a building in Sfad.

I hope they don't bomb the non shiite areas. please... and I hope the residents get the strength to turn HA away. :(
If my bulletins are redundant, please say so.

Suha said...

Eran,

Funny, you have a Hebrew/Arabic smile (from right to left). It is sad.

Omer (israeli) said...

A three-story building in a residential area in Haifa got hit and collapsed.

Jad J said...

more reports about human shielding.... i take back everythin i said about hizbullah wont use human shields.. this is a battle to the end!

Jad J said...

@ sub rosa... did they show any pictures or just headlines ?

Omer (israeli) said...

I'm now at tel-aviv where i live, but i study in jerusalem and my mother and brother are in jerusalem too. Thank god, Hiz is not stupid enoght to fire at jerusalem 1) 50% there are arabs 2) EL-Aqtsa mosque might get hit

Neri Bar-On said...

Salam Alekom

I hope this cycle will end soon with minimal casualties and Lebanon will re-build. I really hope that Building of Lebanon will be in a stage that Israel can support it .

Jad my question to you is :

What do you think are the conditions that we, the people, can cooperate and combine our vision into a safer place to our children?

I wish to know how much the Lebanonize can imagine economic cooperation combined with social and educational development with us the Israelis. What are the Israel behaviors that can make the Israeli existence appealing to the Lebanonize. After all, we can expect this round to end, I do not know if Israel will win all its objectives but it made clear that Lebanon should not enable aggression from its border.

I can say that the Israelis in general are seeking such relationship. But we can not understand the aggression (We are thought in our schools that the Arabs were against our "just" idea to create Jewish state, but in our books it not clears why, beside assumption of inherent hatred).
What do not understand what symbolize in our existence that makes the situation irresolvable? ( I can take harsh words, I want to see the deep causes and it not need to be pleasant to me as Israeli)

I think that we may need to adjust our "Zionist" vision. We showed a unique talent to create a modern stable state (Just notice that Arik Sharon's power transition was simple even when he got into comma). We have one of the most efficient army in the world (I know that we build it on top our war with the Palestinian and Arabs with support of the US, but we knew how to do it), and our economy is relatively better then the Arab world economies. I think our new vision should be to share it with our neighbors and the Palestinians and put the safety and prosperity of the whole region on higher level then the ethno-centric idea of Jewish state. There is no danger to jews today beside the enemies created by establishing Israel.

But at these circumstances I cannot see many Israelis joining me to create such new vision because we feel that we are surrounded by Arab enemies who will take our knowledge and abilities and use them against us. The current attack is highly supported by the Israeli public because we see it as a long term message to secure our citizens hence it preserve for us an ethno-centric world view.

Peace,
Neri Bar-On
Tel-Aviv

Mitrii said...

6 wounded in Haifa, one seriously.

Mirvat said...

neri
i am sorry to tell you that is peace for the future of your children and ours is what you have in mind, this just ruined all these chances.
as i mentioned before, a big portion of the population was against HA before these events.
Israel's punishment of lebanon left the lebanese forgetting about HA and just focusing on their hate to israel for what they're doing.

you even put us at a place where we cannot object to HA right now, after all they ae fighting from this side of the border.

again big mistake for all of us regardless of who started it. the escessive use of force just made us unanymously announce one ennemy in this war.

i am projecting the lebanese opinion and feeling. our news channels report the strikes from the ennemy period.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Suha, very good coverage of events - in Lebenon you forgot Rayak and Kleiat air fields. In Israel you forgot safed, tiberias, Nahariya, afula, Acre, and other places i can't remeber now. Look in the israeli press.

about the smile - (:
it a smile for hope.

Omer (israeli) said...

Neri said:
"I can say that the Israelis in general are seeking such relationship. But we can not understand the aggression (We are thought in our schools that the Arabs were against our "just" idea to create Jewish state, but in our books it not clears why, beside assumption of inherent hatred)"

I think the answer is not simple. The problems strated before 48 (remember 1920 jafa riot?), hostility was there from the begining. The arab saw us as stealling there country, Hence the hostility. Thou its true that in the begining there was calls to make a multi-national state. but in 47 when the Pl' strated to hijack highways and attack israelis. we started attacking their villages. Hence israel says the 700000 refuges were Fleeing, While the arab nation says we threw them out. Its a matter of definition. But this is sure: among the 700000 refugess, not all were hostile. And it is well documented fact that there existed also good relation between some of the population. Some of the villages that were not hostile survive till this day, many with Israeli citizenship (as diffrent then half-jordanian citizenship the Pl's in west bank have)

At least that is what our text books say.

sub Rosa said...

Sky news report: there WAS an incursion into Lebanon over night for a limited opperation near the border. The IDF is not in Lebanon now.

Jad J said...

well Neri i think as a start, Israel has to show some real commitment to the lebanese that what happened was not aimed to destroy the lebanese infrastructure but rather aimed at weakeninh Hizbullah coz some lebanese cant find the relation between hitting gas stations for example and hizbullah (although its of tactical importance)
well i guess israel first concern is to work in some way to decrease the bad feelings it generated in this mitlitary operation, especially if they can show pictures of hizbullah shooting from inside villages, that would explain a lot.

but what i can comment and give my opinion in is the after "just rewards" phase.

i dont see any economic cooperation in the near term, but what we can start with is education, with a US/EU umbrella, there should be seminars and exchange of articles and emails between universities coz if the dialogue has to start, ithas to start on the softest point "the educated".

but i just had an idea, it reminded of the 2nd Gulf war, when the Kuwaities who provided logistical support to the invasion/liberation of iraq, quickly sent supplies to cut off territories to show that they have no dispute with the iraqis but with saddam. Now as PM Seniora said, lebanon will coordinate lots of humanitarian relief effort with the arab countries, but i think it would be a good gesture (although it might face lots of critcism at from a large portion of lebanese) if some israelis citizens with no political background, provide such an effort to places like Ayn Ibil and areas on the border where the refugees have clustered.

But i have to admit that this is the first time i meet a zionist willing to hear critics about zionism and realised that it has some faulty concepts in some areas. I think thats the best that can be to start: "accept criticism".
Furthermore, these are just my thoughts, u'll see many replying, but i think this should translate into a movement, starting with an online forum dedicated to such a dialogue.

Regards,
Jad

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

All cheers to the great lebanese president - words of wisdom they are not.....
What do the Lebanese think?

Mirvat said...

omer
we (the arabs) are not anti-jewish
we are anti-zionist
and in matters of politics and war, we are against the governments not the people. i have very good friends here in NY who are from Israel.
it's not the people, never the people's fault.
this doesn't seem to matter for the israeli "killing machine" as it manifests right now.

you did in 82 exactly what you're doing now to us. back then the reason was to take care of the PLO and now HA. since 82, to lebanon you were the invadors and now you're doing the same.

Mirvat said...

eran, who are you talking about?

Jad J said...

any update onthe haifa collapsed bldg ?

Sagi (Israel) said...

Mirvat,

I believe Lebanon's and Gaza's current plights are frightfully similiar: Both were offered help against Israely occupation by a foreign power we can both name, but when the Israely forces retreated - and in Lebanon's case - retreated completely (please, let's not raise the stupid Shaba Farms subject) - suddenly the population of these areas find out that their goals and the foreign power's goals diverge.

And now it's very, VERY hard to drive it out. Yes, HA's people are Lebanese and Hamas's people are Palestinian, but both organizations are very religious, as a "resistance group" are dependant on never-ending war for their continued influence (not to mention reason for existence), and have their moves dictated to a large extent by Teheran.

The bottom line is, in both cases, the wellfare of their fellow citizens is NOT the primary goal. In your country it couldn't be any more crystal clear: Who in Lebanon stood to gain from provoking Israel to that extent? For the sake of a few prisoners that would be released THE VERY SECOND Lebanon and Israel finally sign a peace agreement?

As to the "why now" question - most people believe Iran chose that moment in order to relieve the international pressure over its nuclear research, which is just now coming to a head (timed exactly for the G8 meeting). I think Iran fears a sudden US strike on their nuclear facilities may be imminent, and by bringing the area to the brink of a regional war, they hope to scare them off. A very risky gamble. And lamentably, a very painful one for Lebanon.

I'm afraid the only explanation I could give as to why civilian facilities are hit will be more or less the party line... Either Israel believes the target contains weapons (and intelligence CAN be wrong), they have a potential military value (these ports come to mind, not to mention the coastal RADAR facilities), or are a plain and simple miss.

Of course, there's also the contentious subject of HA using or not using civilian homes and villages as rocket caches and launching points - with all the entails. For better or worse, I assure you Israel CERTAINLY believes that they do.

The one thing I'd like to convince you of, though I'll probably fail, is that Israely interests DON'T lie in hurting the populace in ANY way. Even the rather weak claim of Israel targeting the Lebaese civilians in order to convince you "we mean business" and thus resist HA more vigorously is moot by this point. For crying out loud, is there anybody not convinced yet?

As Jan says, stay safe.

Neri Bar-On said...

Dear Mivrat,

Yes I can see that, siting in my safe place here in Tel-Aviv clrarly make an ilusion of of possibility of rational discussion.

My hart is with you. I do not know if I am welcome but when I see the picture of the children I see my 3 yr old son and get connected to this no boundary human feeling I think we all share. it bring tears to my eyes.

As I said, I guess most Israelis are in different state and feeling less care of the lebanonize, the current Israel image of Lebanon is as un-responsible government that did not control such organization as HA so we need to force them to be responsiable regardless of their internal politics because we have higher priority to secure Israel citizens.
With all that yesterday about 1,000 people demonstrated against this Israeli violent act just in front of my house in Tel-Aviv. So some of us recognize the Lebanonize suffering but we are locked into this "etno-centric" views that hide the site of lebanonize children and future. I guess you can agree with me that HA want such situation because it proves their point that Israel is aggressive, but we have to find other ways to interact.

I can see you expect from Israel to assure no aggression and act as friendly neighbor. What else can you expect from Israel 5 years from now when Lebanon will be on its feet again? What you expect from Israel relationship with the Palestinians?

Neri Bar-On said...

Dear Mivrat,

Yes I can see that, siting in my safe place here in Tel-Aviv clrarly make an ilusion of of possibility of rational discussion.

My hart is with you. I do not know if I am welcome but when I see the picture of the children I see my 3 yr old son and get connected to this no boundary human feeling I think we all share. it bring tears to my eyes.

As I said, I guess most Israelis are in different state and feeling less care of the lebanonize, the current Israel image of Lebanon is as un-responsible government that did not control such organization as HA so we need to force them to be responsiable regardless of their internal politics because we have higher priority to secure Israel citizens.
With all that yesterday about 1,000 people demonstrated against this Israeli violent act just in front of my house in Tel-Aviv. So some of us recognize the Lebanonize suffering but we are locked into this "etno-centric" views that hide the site of lebanonize children and future. I guess you can agree with me that HA want such situation because it proves their point that Israel is aggressive, but we have to find other ways to interact.

I can see you expect from Israel to assure no aggression and act as friendly neighbor. What else can you expect from Israel 5 years from now when Lebanon will be on its feet again? What you expect from Israel relationship with the Palestinians?

CatoRenasci said...

Do you have confirmation and a source for this:

President Lahoud has officially claimed that he supports the "Resistance" and will not give up Sayyid Nasrallah.

Does anyone in Lebanon realize what this means in international law? If true, it's actually astounding! It means that the President of the sovereign country of Lebanon has endorsed war with Israel, a war that began with aggression from Lebanon. It means that Israel has the absolute right to wage war against the whole country, to basically tell the UN to go to hell, to not stop until it occupies the entire country, and to crush any resistance. Civilians who resist will be franc-tireurs subject to summary execution under the laws of war.

Before, if the Lebanese government was not endorsing Hezbollah, there was at least the shred of a reason to limit the Israeli incursion and to ultimately come to some sort of cease fire disarming Hezbollah. You at least had a moral claim on the world's sympathy that you had been too weak to disarm Hezbollah, though you would have liked to.

Poor Lebanon, so close to Israel and Syria, and so far from God (to paraphrase a Mexican president's lament about Mexico being so close the the US and so far from God)!

May God preserve the Lebanese people who do not support Hezbollah, and may He give those who wish to destroy Hezbollah the ability to distinguish you from the supporters of Hezbollah!

B

zionrules16 said...

"President Lahoud has officially claimed that he supports the "Resistance" and will not give up Sayyid Nasrallah."

The attack on Israel that STARTED all this, and the continued rocket attacks has the blessing of the Lebanese people, the Lebanese government, and the Lebanese military.

Jad J said...

yeah well... i was hoping the IAF sends a bomb signed March 14 on the presidential palace !!!

@ Sargi,
u have to understand that the concept of Zionism in the arab world has been interpreted in a much worse way than u can imagine... if u can explain in bulleted points what Zionism is all about, and which points u do not agree on, at least u'll start getting somehwere.

Shmulik said...

JAD J: I am sorry but I think you start to see what the Hizballah really is.
SUHA
As I have said to Diana I am not a military expert. There is a concensus in the Israeli media (and technical forums) that the missiles were guided by Lebanese RADARs. Although It's not a proof, the fact remains that after the RADAR distruction no further attacks have happened (maybe they have only 2 missiles, it is possible). I usually do tend to believe the IDF announcments. If you think I am wrong please explain it to me logically. We may not always agree, but your and other lebanese opinions do matter to me and to other israelis.

Jad J said...

Come on, u all know by now that this president is a syrian puppet leftover! if Arafat said he wants war with Israel, does it mean that Abbas wants war with israel.

sub Rosa said...

Jad, one thing good came out of this war: the communication between all of us here. I had less prejudice than other Israelis about the Lebanese, but it existed, as you must have of us.
Damn it! we live so close to each other, our mentality is not that different, and yet this is the first time I'm talking to people in Lebanon. I know you are all Christians or Suni and that you don't represent the poor Shiite villagers or the Palestinians. let's face it: you belong to a dwindling Christian or Suni bourgeoisie, but you still have much effect in Lebanon, and you're no less Lebanese than HA supporters. You're the future of Lebanon and I hope that you take control over your country in the future, and that we would be able to sit over a glass of whatever you drink overthere, and laugh about life.
I'm not a peace loving tree hugger. But I think I share, as an Israeli, something with the people of Lebanon - a commin tragedy, a multi-culti experience, a sense of not belonging in this see of Arab/Muslim dictatorships.

Suha said...

Eran,

My mistake. I sent you a cached link. Try this in google earth or insert it in the "search maps" field on maps.google.com and it will load automatically.

Let me know if we've missed anything (haven't updated to include today's events yet).

Jad J said...

@ Shmulik:
meant that as a good or bad thing ? :)

Mirvat said...

sagi i think i started to lose you logic

"Who in Lebanon stood to gain from provoking Israel to that extent
For the sake of a few prisoners"
now you talk about lebanon and HA interchangebly. i thought you were convinced that the lebanese government has no interest in this and so convinced that the punishment is not directed towards us.
"that would be released THE VERY SECOND Lebanon and Israel finally sign a peace agreement" i also thought that these war criminals do not deserve to be released! ever!

and please check what i said to ner which is the expected reaction from the people. how is that going to be of any good for the future?

neri
let's pray for lebanon to survive. palestine, you saw the demonstrations right? your actions are throwing the whole arabic street into a unified reaction anti israel which we haven't seen in a while, even for the iraq war.
nothing good..
the best for you and your kids and i really appreciate your empathy with your fellow human beings.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

I don't think anybody in Lebanon really takes serious interest in the president - when are the elections?
Jad, LOL that would be a good one but I think you still need the palace - for the next and hopefully better sovreign.
maybe you can send him a one way ticket to Damascus.

Jad J said...

@SubRosa... i hope this dialogue doesnt loose its momentum after the operation is over.... i really feel we've started something here. I hope other lebanese share my views and dont get carried away with their hate to the Israeli Military and politics because i believe that both Lebanese and israeli politics are not a soft point to start a dialogue from.

Suha said...

Jad,

could you please let me know your sources for "human shields" and incursions into Christian area. This is dangerous information. I would like to sift out reality from other kinds of attempts - "mu'aamarah" :P

Suha said...

Sub Rosa said:
I know you are all Christians or Suni and that you don't represent the poor Shiite villagers or the Palestinians.

Actually, I am half Palestinian.

Mirvat said...

our prime minister seniora is in charge
whatever the president says is just him voicing what syria wants to say.

Shmulik said...

JAD J
I meant that I am sorry about what is happening in Lebanon but now you begin to see why such measures are necessary.
I do belive that you and us have a very different idea of what zionism is all about. If you like I will gladly share our view (Since we have invented it I think we know what's zionism is :) )

Jad J said...

Eran ... Nice one... ! well a president is not a president with the size of its palace... he can rule a country from a hutt!
next election in about 1 year i guess.

Omer (israeli) said...

Mirvat:
"you did in 82 exactly what you're doing now to us. back then the reason was to take care of the PLO and now HA. since 82, to lebanon you were the invadors and now you're doing the same."

No problem here. I'm with you on that issue. But you must understand the paronid state in which israel is (surronded by enemy's want her daed) makes us very aggressive. Fact is if any of the Isreali wars (before 82) were lost, i wouldn't be here to discuss it. There was no "soft-hand" when egypt,jordan,iran,iraq,syria attacked us in ALL israeli wars before 82. 1982 lebanon war was the fist war that wasn't fought on israel's land. We have a strong army casue otherwise we woudln't be at all. But if u are telling me that israel in her battle for survival did terible things, thats true, and still counting.
But the thing is that most Israelis thirst for peace, some belive that the only way to achive this is by showing a strong reaction to any aggression, that only fear can keep enemys away.
Sadly, many groups and countries give israel the "fuel" to feel this way. And as Israel isn't innocent, but neither were the arab countries that "justified" the action israel taken in order to survive. I wonder if israeli's would have lost back in 48, would there be sympthy for us in the arab world?
The history proved as victors, but that didn't have to be the case. we were shown no mercy, hence we also became mercyless. Wars seriously f*ck up our national psych.

And alot can be said about israeli society today, but the urge to survive didn't vanish.
The only way to go for is peace. Respecting each other borders (after all occupid territorys are with-drawn), but not necessicrly like each other. that will have to happen in future generations, when hostility fades and status quoe respected.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Suha,
thanks (:
Jad, I'm all for it....it's incredible what technnology can do to open hearts and minds

Important update - the katyushas on the Golan came from the Syrian side of the Hermon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TV Ch2 says they are to enter shelters.....Has bashar lost his head??????

Aaron said...

Hi,
I am writing from The Sun newspaper in the UK. We are looking for bloggers to send us a piece on the situation as it stands.
Please contact me if this is of interest.
Aaron Bateman
suninternet1@the-sun.co.uk

Neri Bar-On said...

Jad,

About Zionism, I can state my opinion that I think we can recognize that Zionist idea needs to change. If we keep the "Jewish" rights to control the land we do not leave reasonable space to the 20% of the Israeli citizens (Arab) and not much to the Palestinians who got greater project then the Zionist project.
I can recognize that most Israelis are stuck in the loop of "we must be a Jewish state". It especially rises when organization as HA get successes as the one they had.

To craft a new identity we need a wider scope, we need to take all of Zionist success and share it with the world, in a way that Palestinians will be able to create their own identity and statehood. But it needs some degree of acceptance of "kind" of Israeli people who see themselves with obligation toward the human tissue of this region. I do not see if from the HA side nor from Hamas, so the change can be done only on theoretical level.

We also can learn from the Zionist project, for instance you may not know but during the 48 war one of the branches (I think HAHETZEL –led by Menahem Begin) was bringing it own weapon, but did not want to share it with the new formed IDF. So the sank the Altalena sheep with it crew. (years later you met the Menahem Begin as the P.M. who entered Lebanon). This is important lesson for us of the importance to speak in one voice when we are at war.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html

sub Rosa said...

Jad, of course I'd like to stay in touch with you and the others after this is over.
Here is a little treat to help us think of something else for a while:
A Chicken in Kazakhstan layed an Egg with "Allah" written on it.
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=17580&in_page_id=2

Jad J said...

@ Suha,
the information is form Alseyassa newspaper. but they can be propaganda as u said.

on the other hand, that rocket launched on the pamphlets was launched from a purely christian area: Wedeh chahrour, located on the outskirts of dahyeh.

Omer (israeli) said...

Neri, how old are you?
haven't you noticed that "Zionisem" is almost dead? or even if not dead, in a very diffrent form that what it was is the 50th,60th,70th.
I never ever called myself a "zionist", that passe.

sub Rosa said...

aaron, are you looking for israelis or just Lebanese?

Mirvat said...

omer
i agree with all what you said coming from your point of view. the events of the Nasser war in 67 proves that. in order to protect what you established in 48, you had to be agressive and went far into sinai, golan, ghaza and west bank. south lebanon was a reaction to PLO that followed.
all true, the problem is as lebanese, people of peace we do not believe in excessive force and as Arabs, we do not believe in zionism. hence your establishment of the jewish state is for us, not legitimate and the war of 67 is 100% founded and supported.
this difference, i always say, is a difference of a principle so big that almost compares to differences in religious beliefs that drive people into aggression and extremism.

Ilan said...

Hey. I'm writing you from Israel - Just wanted to let people know, that not everybody here supports the "collective punishment" the people of Lebanon are forced to go through. Hope this situation will end as soon as possible, with no more innocent victims from both sides.

Ilan - Little-Israel

Shmulik said...

mirvat please explain
Why do you think zionism is so wrong??
I have the feling that what you and I mean when we use the word is completely different.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Sorry for not making myself clear, Mirvat.

"Who in Lebanon stood to gain from provoking Israel to that extent
For the sake of a few prisoners" was a rhetorical question, with the answer being: "None, therefore it was clearly ordered by Iran".

Well, perhaps "None except HA" but for better or worse I believe they're Iran's proxies to such an extent - as seen by their TOTAL disregard to the fate of their native country - that they can hardly be called Lebanese by now.

As for releasing the prisoners - I never said that "these war criminals do not deserve to be released". I actually never referred to them before now...

I certainly DO believe the one I know about - Samir Kuntar - is not somebody I'd like to have as a home guest, and that's putting it mildly. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be released with every other Lebanese prisoners as part of a peace agreement.

As to the expected reaction from the people - I don't know: I admit I'd certainly not be moved to hug and kiss a country that's bombing me. On the other hand, as our countries have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to fight over, I still hope HA's destruction/disarmament/weakening - with international support - will enable your central goverment to take full control of the country. At that point we could hate each other without exchanging rockets... And hopefully, in a number of years, have a true and mutually beneficial peace.

Scenic View said...

Explain to the Iranian Foriegn Minister that a cease fire will only occur once Iran and Syria has recalled their Hezballah puppets away from their mission to turn Lebabnon's infrastructure back 20 years.

CatoRenasci said...

jad j said:

Come on, u all know by now that this president is a syrian puppet leftover! if Arafat said he wants war with Israel, does it mean that Abbas wants war with israel.

It's not the same thing. Lahoud is the Head of State. When he speaks he speaks for Lebanon. He's not saying wants war, he's saying he supports the war, and will protect the leader of Hezbollah!

I fully understand the Lebanese who react to comments which you see as blaming Lebanon for its situation by telling us foreigners here to bugger off. It's not pleasant, nor particularly helpful, to tell a drowning man that he ought not have gone into the ocean if he knew he could not swim. It's true, but it's not helpful.

My comments, and those of some others, are meant not to say it's Lebanon's "fault" but to point out - in response to what appears to be bewilderment about why you're getting the brunt of the attacks - the objective facts that put Lebanon in the situation it finds itself. I'm sympathetic to the plight of the Lebanese people who do not support war against Israel or anyone else. It's really a bad situation. However, the status quo ante is not sustainable given what's happened, and Hezbollah has to go. Go as in be destroyed, root and branch. I would hope that the Lebanese could help destroy it, or at least stand out of the way. If the Lebanese try to hepl Hezbollah, I'm afraid you will be hurt vastly more than you have been so far. But, this is a war. I am neither Israeli nor Jewish and have no special brief for Israel. However, I have enough military experience to know that right now the destruction of Hezbollah is more important to the Israelis - and in my view to the world - than avoiding civilian casualties if the Lebanese try to get in the way.

I pray the Lebanese will not try to aid Hezbollah!

Jad J said...

@ Neri,
Ok i understand ure point of view... but i must stress that in these days, the word "Zionism" feels the same to arabs as the word "Nazi" feels for u. U have to change to showing that thats not the intention of Zionism at least. what u can start with, at least on this blog is the following:

1- show point by point what are the fundamentals of zionism.
2- what point do u think have already failed
3- what points do u think they are doomed to fail
4- what point u do not agree on.

in that way, whatever bad feeling is towards Zionism, might end up being the SAME points for Israelis and Middle easterners.

Mirvat said...

neri, Begin's entry into lebanon was not planned, and just stupid back then. they ended up cleaning up some internal mess and looking bad. back then we were in the midst of a very violent civil war and the PLO was using it as an oasis to operate. when things got out of hand, they ended up leaving. this is why i said olmert is worse than sharone. ruthless.

Omer (israeli) said...

Mirvat,
Its very importent to understand:
Most people in israel today weren't there in 48, they were born after. Our famelies, children and friends are all from Israel.
The call for "Destruction of Israel" isn't rational anymore. where can we go? should we sucide? or jump all to the sea while Ahminjad is clapping?
You see, we have no other home, no where to go. We have only Israel, and most here will protect it to death.

Neri Bar-On said...

Omer,

I am 40, ask yourself how many Israelies will approve today to remove the "jewish state" from our Israeli identity. With all my friend from the political "Left" non was agree to remove it. but I agree with you, it is time to change ourself and open ourself to change with our relationship with Arab and esspecially palestinians. it is not only us, but we need to do our homework too.

I wish our Lebanonize friend will tell us what is the image of Zionism they see. instead we tell them what Zionism is. After all they act from their image of Israel not from our Image of Israel.

Mirvat said...

thank you Ilan

Eran Kampf said...

If arabs can have "Islamic states" why can't we have a "jewish state"?

RAA said...

you asked "If you think I am wrong please explain it to me logically"
These missiles may have been a "proof of concept" firing benefiting the Iranians. IRAN is in very serious build up in anticipation of a US conformation. I believe Lebanon is serving as a test bed for these weapon in which they will use sparingly for the purpose of improvement and further data collection. As to the Lebanese Radar assistance it is possible, however, unlikely. The lunch may have required a level of integration between the missiles and the radar system, that could well be the case, but not likely. I tend to believe that HA would have kept a tight lip on the missile and not share the knowledge with the LAF. Further, I do think that you can integrate these system in such quick ad hock fashion. Of course, this is speculation..

Shmulik said...

Mirvat can you explain to us what is zionism to you??

Shmulik said...

RAA
No one has said that the LAF cooperaed willingly. maybe a Shi'te symphtazeer in the RADAR station. Maybe a local commander was pissed off to see a warship hitting beirut?
I agree that we can only speculate at this point.

Omer (israeli) said...

Neri,
Its so true what you are saying, its essintial for our survival. Trust the younger generation: occupation brought with it a moral burden. It twisted our sense of "rightness", we all pay a dear price for letting it happen (and i'm not talking only about Pl's resistance). Back in 1967 only few could think straight with all the "euporia" of victory... in an almost impossible war.
Trust the younger generation, we are working hard to secure peace. I want my children to live in a safe enviorment, i dont want more war for them. No, we had enoght!
We must change, and hope that our neighbours do the same. This forum is a good start

Suha said...

There is a problem of perspective here that I encounter whenever I have a discussion with an Israeli: While Israel continually perceives itself as a victim, it is perceived by its neighbors as the continual aggressor. Citizens of surrounding countries do not understand how Israelis can fear for their survival when the Israeli military is among the strongest in the world (rank 6, I believe). There is, no doubt, a lot of propaganda on both sides to enforce these visions. On the Arab side, the Palestinians are used by regimes like that of Assad & Ahmadinejad: they claim to help them but use them to advance their own agendas. The lack of communication between us definitely reinforces this propaganda.

I can tell you that, at least judging by people around me and on both sides of the family (i.e. both Palestinians and Lebanese), no one hopes to "regain Palestine" and everyone is sick and tired of this conflict, just as sick and tired as Israelis. The problem is that, for whatever reasons (I am not apportioning blame), they perceive IDF actions in the West Bank and Gaza as ethnic cleansing. The increase in the building of settlements after the Oslo Accords provides them with proof that the Israeli government and at least a portion of the Israeli population do not want peace.

You should also know that, as Mirvat has pointed out, people make a very good distinction between Judaism and Zionism, the latter they perceive as a settlement ideology. Many an old refugee in the camps of Lebanon talk about their old Jewish neighbors before '48 with fondness and most Lebanese lament the decimation of their small, but propserous Jewish community (Great book on Lebanese Jews: The Jews of Lebanon, by Kirstin Schulz).

I am pointing out these things to make a point and that is that our respective governments (Arab and Israeli) feed these tensions between us and use these differences to advance different agendas. Extremist groups funded by governments (let's not forget that the Israeli state supported Hamas in the 1980's to undermine a secular, if violent Fateh) play a large role in that. I believe part of the problem is breaking down the barriers so that more people understand that those on the other side want peace too. These forums are excellent for this sort of thing, but we should establish something more permanent (constantly refreshing this is also getting on my nerves). Any ideas on how to be able to chat in real time? How about we set up a list?

zionrules16 said...

jad j Today Jihad has the same meaning to us as Zionism has to you. Being a muslim could you shed some light on the following points.

1. Why is it that 95% of all conflicts on the planet involve muslims. Muslims fighting in India, Philippines, Indonesia, east Timor, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt, Russia, Algeria, Chad, Iraq, Morocco, Serba. etc...

2. Does the idea of Jihad contribute to this at all.

3. Why does it seem that Islam can not get along with any other culture than Islam.

4. What is with the head chopping thing and praising god while you do it. Is that like a human sacrifice thing, is it relate to jihad?

Thanks

Mirvat said...

historical events and corresponding arabic views and feelings throughout the years

modern zionism: founded in 1896
by theodor herzl (the Jewish state) which argues that the Jewish problem of persecution in the world could be solved by setting up a jewish state in palestine, or somewhere else, so that jews can live freely.

1917: Balfour declaration by britain decides that the jewish state would be in palestine
(oh really!) not enough all the other arabic countries were occupied.

1936-39: arabs of palestine revolt to that.
(of course, it's their land!!)

48: israel established anyway
(still not enough to the jews)

56: israel,joining forces with britain and france (our enemies at the time, our invadors after the ottoman empire and britain was ferocious in egypt) attacks egypt in nasser times when all arabs were united.
(that's the arab injury)

64: nasser's PLO founded (what do you expect, that was the arabic hope and nasser was their pride )

67:
israel launches strike against egypt syria and jordan and takes sinai, golan, ghaza, west bank.
(this is the aggression you talk about)

69: arafat's time as head of PLO
79: sadat's peace treaty.
After Nasser was gone, we were looking at egypt to find sadat sign a peace reaty where the arabs were still outraged and waiting to free the land of their fellow arabs. arafat had to become the symbol of the cause and of what's left of nasser. even when he lets them down, he was all the palestinians had left. and don't convince me that palestinians have it great in israel now.

they wanted their country back and as arabs we all unite on that. that what defines arabs in the emotional memory of people today.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Jad,

There is no filaure or success of Zionism. The Zionist movement was formed over 100 years ago and it's main pinciple was to allow the return of the jewish nation to thier historic homeland in palestine. The Balfor declaration of 1917 was an international support of these assiprations.
The zionist movement before 1948 used money to buy land and creat places of residents for imgirants andto devleope the country and build a strong and prospoerous economy. This also benefited the palstinians since before the country was backwards a fit for nobody to live. Jews created roads, water services, factories everytihng from scrach. Tel-Aviv my city was founded in 1909 as a neighbourhood of then Jaffa. By 1948 it was alreday larger than Jaffa. 1948 made the transition from movement to state. The sate is called the state of Israel not the jewish state not the zionist state. Israel has a declarion of indpendence which is very liberal and provides rights and security to all its citizens - jews and non jews. The army has druze, chrsitian and beduin units. Only the muslims refrain from going to the army. Zionism has notihng to do with expeleling arabs, or holding all the area of palestine. All this is a product of Israeli politics and events created after the state was proclaimed. Not all israelis beleive in settlements and evicting arabs. This is only the fanatical religous in the right wing.

Aaron said...

sub rosa, we would ideally like both. Preferably someone living in Beirut and someone in Haifa.
Thanks, Aaron
suninternet1@the-sun.co.uk

sub Rosa said...

Suha, will you marry me? :)
I couldn't agree more with your post. Perhaps we can open a vbulliten forum? I don;t know much about computers and I can't opperate a server, but I will be more than happy to contribute time and money to the success of this important idea.
The forum will be in English, it will have Israeli and Arab moderators, and will have sub forums about News and politics ("Aktuel"), Music, sports, etc. Whatayasay?

Jad J said...

very well put Neri, amazing how much ure convinced that the Israeli politics should change. I hate to ask u this but from a psychological point of view, ummm... did u loose any of ure closed ones in a terrorist attack somewhere along the line?

OK i know what i'm going to say next will probably lead to any arab regime hanging me and throwing me to the sharks but nevertheless....

I do not agree that israel shuld dissolve itself, since one of my hobbies is ancient history, Jews were in Israel/Palestine from wayyyyy long time, actually, before nabuchanezzra invaded and slaved the jewish people (except one last state, i think it was king David's) there were no palestinians.

But nevertheless, this is not a land that is exclusive to any civilization, we as christians also have our claims same as muslims and jews, but the jewish roots go way before muslims and chrisitians in that area and the entire middle east actually.

what happened in 1948 was a big mistake, the reason Israel is thought of as an inexisting state is mainly attributed to the 48 massacres and very very very bad treatment of the palestinians.

Both palestinians are in a dilemma: Palestinians consider as having a home, a land, a country as part of their identity, and onthe other hand, the Jewish people never felt like belonging to anywhere before the 1948. Now we all talk about how dear it is for us to defend our country, but do u know the feeling of not having one...

now if we are going to judge each others for something our grand grand fathers did, we'll never get to a resolution, back then, half of them were ignorants. Now its our time, Israel/Palestine have enough place for both people, with proper remapping, it will be solved (its not that easy as i make it sound though coz this is where politics interferes). we all realized what are the mistakes... dont u think thats a good foundation tomove forward.

Israeli's can help the palestians get over the corruption in their government and start promoting education IN the palestinian state, becoz the majority of the educated palestinians are outside palestine.

there are othe numerous ways to start at... just find a soft point, bypass the military and the officials, start with the universities, exchange views, seminars, lectures... it will be a movement that will grow slowly but surely.

and for the israelis, u have to start working on decreasing the anti-jewish sentiment(i hate the word anti-semitism coz its so exploited in the WEST) coz its not written neither in the bible nor the Quran that we should hate jews, chrisitians and muslims are living peacefully together in an educated environment such as lebanon, so can muslims and jews.

damn i feel like the ideas and thoughts in my head racing to go out but reaching a bottleneck...

Who can start working on a forum to continue this road after the July 2006 war has ended?

Mirvat said...

i want to add to what suha said by saying that we see the paranoia and the excessive aggression as completely unfounded. again i live in NY and i know the jewish influence in the world. not to mention your military power and your american support. the idea that you are living amongst arabic countries and have to be on the alert is also old and goes back to nasser's days.
in retrospect we interpret it as a policy of aggression and expansion.

i would also like to say that the united states also is projecting a state of christian extremism which is the view of most liberal democrats here. and that in their history, they backed up and funded their share of extremists and still do.

Omer (israeli) said...

mirvat,
"67:
israel launches strike against egypt syria and jordan and takes sinai, golan, ghaza, west bank.
(this is the aggression you talk about)"

I will argue here. War was immenent in 1967. we were thretend, everyone in the world knew war is close. We were purly defensive, we acted first, otherwise we would have lost the war. Do you think that Israeli's thought they will conquer all that land? your dreaming. We were terrified, petrified while the egyptian radio said there are egyptian tanks on the gate of Tel-aviv (psychological warfare, also a lie). Why did we win? becasue we had the conviction that we are protecting our families. We were out numbered, out weaponed, out over our head attacked from all borders. So please.

FREEQ8 said...

كتبت00 قصيدة للدفاع عن لبنان ولأظهار المشاعر الكويتيه تجاه الشعب اللبناني الحبيب
ودعوت كل الكويتين00 للعمل وبذل كل ما بوسعهم للمساعده 00ومحاولة رفع الظلم 00000عن اخواننا اللبنانين الرجاء قرأتها في المدونه الخاصه00 بنا
ونشرها 00حتى يري الشعب 00اللبناني محبة الشعب الكويتي
وشكراً
وعسى الله أن يحفظكم

Jad J said...

my brother established an IRC channel for us a few days ago, but i think such channels do not work, we need to keep a copy of every discussion for all newcomers. a Vbulletin Board is a very good idea.

mono said...

jad j, about the topic discussed earlier wether israel was preparing a conventional/ground operations, have a look at this:

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002586.html

i still fear this is what will happen.

nuggs said...

"if we are going to judge each others for something our grand grand fathers did, we'll never get to a resolution"

Truer words have never been spoken.

"and for the israelis, u have to start working on decreasing the anti-jewish sentiment"

How do we do that? That is like telling blacks in the USA you need to stop making the white man hate you.
anti-jewish sentiment is taught in many schools. Children are taught on TV programs that jews are pigs and dogs.
I am not being an ass here, but what action could Israel take that would bring the level of anti-jewish thought down, and not be viewed as weakness by those who call for our destruction. They are out there, they run the country of Iran. Every time Israel gives a little some extremeist claims victory and attacks again. Israel offered peace at camp david and it was rejected.

Mirvat said...

omer
can you adress the other points and lose the attitude please? i am sharing our views because i was asked so that we might reach somewhere by educating each other.
i could really live without this right now but i feel that i might be doing something constructive.

Sagi (Israel) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mirvat said...

"The sad part is that when people try to evacuate, they are hit. Just got news of a car completely buried under the rubble after Israeli warplanes hit a bridge in the south. Three died.doha"

Shmulik said...

Mirvat you seem to forget many things in your historical narative. examples:
-1897 If you read Herzel's writings you will see that the proposed state in his book was supposed to be arab and jewish combined, with complete equality. It was supposed to be a refuge from presecution and not a jewish controlled state.
- 1917 most borders and nations in the middle east are a legacy of british and french colonialism. Why only this bothers you?
36-39
arab rebellion
arab atacks against jews in palestine have started many years before 36. We didn't have any army to fight with. All of the jewish lands before this time were purchasd legally from arabs (I don't know if you accept colonial british laws, but that was the law at the time.
48
Jews agree to partition and palestinians don't.
5 arabs armies invade and are suprisingly defeated.
56
After repeated fidaiun attacks on our towns (and other provocations) supported by Egypt we have crushed the arab army in the Sinai and than rtreat. Fidaiun attacks stop completely (Israelis understand just force, ha?)
67
Israeli launches an attack after: nasser and most arab leaders call for the destrucyion of Israel, close the Tiran straight (casus belli by itself), move the egyptian army into Sinai (a demilitarized zone at the time) including the removal of UN peacekeepers in Sinai. Nasser pulled the gun and pointed, should we have let him pull the trigger??
After 67 our prime minister has issued a call for "land for peace" the arab response? the Khartoom declaration (NO to peace with Israel, NO to recognition to Israel, and another no I don't remmber right now).
I don't think we ae blameless and I can give examples if you want.

Sagi (Israel) said...

My two cents worth about Zionism:

The first paragraph from Wikipedia's definition is actually quite a good start:

"Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states have existed up to the 2nd century. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe and many parts of the Muslim world during the 19th Century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed much of the existing Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."

That's enough about history. Let's move on the now. Still from Wikipedia:

"Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism is generally considered to mean support for Israel."

Err... And that's about it.

No subtle point by point analysis this time, Jad... :)

Before Israel was founded, a Zionist was a person that believed in Jews coming back to their old homeland and restablishing it - as opposed to Jews that wanted to stay put in the diaspora.

After Israel was founded - well, it took some time, but the term "Zionism" more or less lost its meaning. As Omer so succinctly put, it's "passe": There IS a Jewish homeland now, so I suppose a Zionist is every Israely that doesn't wish to see the country destroyed. At least for Jews, saying that you're a Zionist (which people rarely do nowdays) is like an Australian person claiming he believes Australila belongs to the Australian. Harmless enough - apart from the fact few people dispute Australia's right to exist.

Two points that should be made clear after all: For Israelies, the term "Jew" became loaded with national meaning beyond the religious one. When Israelies say something like "Israel is the homeland of the Jews" it shouldn't be read in a religious context. Most Israelies are secular anyway... Basically, Israelies see the Jews of the world the way Lebanese of any faith see the offspring of a Lebanese expatriate. Living and born abroad, but sharing the same heritage and welcome to come back.

The second point I wish to raise is the "Zionism = Racism" that's sure to surface in a second anyway: Zionism is racism only to the extent we wish to maintain a distinct national identity. If you define a New-Zealander opposing heavy migration into his country because he's afraid it would change its character as a racist, or perhaps a person in Lebanon opposed to giving 200,000 Syrians a Lebanese citizenship - well, in that case Zionists are racists too.

So basically, propoganda aside, I think the problem is not with Zionism being any different from any other national movement. The problem stems from agreeing or disagreeing to Israel's right to exist as a principle.

I'd love to hear some of the Arab views on Zionism, as I admit my knowledge is currently limitied to some very unflattering caricatures I've seen.

Jad J said...

those Kuwaities are the best Arabs in the whole world... really, if u want to look for a typical arab behavior, look at kuwaities, they try to help everyone they can whenever they can. This is the genuine arab behavior, although i always say i'm lebanese not arab, but if u try to say i'm an arab on the Kuwaity image... i have to agree with u. The kuwaities are helping the Lebanese in total, not Shiite, not Sunnii, not Christian... but all of us. They are the only arab country that does not refer muslim nation in every speech, they just say "Arabs"
Which shows they arent fanatics and with narrow orientation as other arab nations.

they helped us before, they helped iraqies (although they invaded them) and now they are helping us again...

really, a big big big thanks to all Kuwaities!!!

Mirvat said...

the term zionism is still relevent to the arabs for reasons i mentioned above. arabs do not accept the legitimacy of the founding of the state of israel in principle.
i personally agree that this should be history only for the argument, and this is in principle, that at this point not acknowleging zionism would be the same idea that the zionists originally used to land in palestine and eventually not acknowleging the palestinians

shaigadol said...

I feel also sorry to what happen in lebanon and I hope you feel sorry for what happen in israel.

Israel have now a peacefull government and belive me the country have no choise except attack lebanon.

The reason that we do not attack syria or iran is not that we afraid from them but because all the hostile attack on israel is done by lebanon country (hisbulla is lebanon group.)

no country can attack other country that do not attack from their teritory!!!

I think that one day you and the lebanon country will thank israel for free lebanon from syria an iran (using the hisbulla).

I think I can be your friend because I also very sad from what happen in israel and lebanon.

I know you not free and very afraid to speak freely because of the terrorist group hisbullla and the syrian and iran who contro them/

israel fight not agaist lebanon but against very big and deadly group which have deadly weapon arrived from iran and syria.

I hope that after the war 1 million people go out and demostrate agaist hisbulla the group which destroy lebanon and part of israel.

I want to be your freind and invite you to telaviv to drink beer with me after the crazy war.

please god of jews and cristian and islam bring wisdom to the people and make peace between human being.

Jad J said...

sagi... very well put, along with the examples.

but now, if u were in charge of closing the gap between israelis and palestinians (start with them, the rest will come later), do u think u'll have enough support in israel, and if not, how do u plan to start. If what we started here in this forum is to grow further, into some sort of movement, i think u as israeli shuld start working on ure image man, its really perceived in a wrong way.

@Zionrule16

0- I'm not muslim, and i never met in person a muslim as u protray it, because all muslims i know, are educated people, and educated people do not let themselves be brainwashed by religious figures. but i can assure u this, that all those barbaric acts u see on tv, i dare u to find one sentence in the Quran that commands u to do so (ie: chopping heads off)

Its just a twisted version of islam that is becoming more and more popular.
Did Malcol X chop the heads of americans, or Al Sistani?

Mirvat said...

Just in from Lebanon.

I quote :


On behalf of all Lebanese Citizens:

Dear friends,

I am writing to you as a helpless human being praying in a country slowly
being erased from the surface of life for my salvation, that of my fellow
Lebanese brothers and that of my country.

A brief summary from the perspective of a citizen: half of Lebanon is
isolated with more than 40 main bridges destroyed, my family in the south
has no food to eat, no meat, no bread and the vegetables are very highly
priced because of the danger to bring them in, missiles are fired every
day and night on many villages in the south. Beirut is harshly being
bombarded, a lot of bridges were pulverized even in the capital, the
airport is devastatingly damaged as well as all the roads linking Lebanon
to the neighbouring country Syria. Today all the sea ports were bombarded
and we are imprisoned while many Lebanese are compelled to stay outside
Lebanon and many non-Lebanese from all nationalities are compelled to
remain in. No food, gas, fuel, or post can reach us. Villages all over the
Bekaa and the north are also bombarded and this all has happened in only 3
days!!!

The situation is escalating around the clock! We are now under the threat
of chemical intoxication since many fuel storage tanks all over the
coastline are being targeted. There is much worst! Kafarshooba and Hetta,
two villages in the south are being shelled with prohibited chemical
weapons and toxic substances. Villagers who are seeking refuge in
occasional shelters, completely isolated with no minimum fundamental
supplies, are asked now to inhale through wet textiles, sniff onions and
to grind charcoal then put it in wet tissues to protect themselves from
intoxication!

Hundreds of civilians were cold-bloodedly targeted and killed on purpose
in such a way never seen or imagined before! The most appalling and
shocking massacre was when a bus carrying about 25 villagers from
Marwaheen was hit by a rocket. They were fleeing their village following
an Israeli threat and the UNIFL refused to shelter them! No one of them
remained alive! The region of Dahieh (Beirut southern suburb) was
completely devastated like Hiroshima… Its inhabitants, or those who are
still alive, are fleeing to other regions where public and private schools
establishments opened their door to give them refuge…

In light of the foregoing, I feel that words are useless or have lost
their meaning….

I am not sure what I am asking for exactly...I don't know if you are aware
that the UN meeting on Thursday did not lead to a decision to a
cease-fire, which I perceive as contradictory with the very definition of
the UN.

All I want is my rights as a human being. What I am asking for is that no
matter what the problem is, it should be solved outside the scope of a
war.

Is there anything our community of young people can do? Would the
governments of the world listen to the voices of the next generation? I
really don't know what I am asking for, but I know I am asking for help.

Thank you for reading this, it would already mean a lot to me.


LeMSIC, with the help of some IFMSA Officials has prepared a petition, to
be sent to the UN, UN Security Council, EU, and other NGOs, institutions
and councils working in the field of Human Rights and Peace.

To access and sign the petition, please click on
http://www.petitiononline.com/Jul06Leb/petition.html

Let's make a stand for humanity, let's make a stand against war, let's
make a stand against crimes..
Please forward to all your members, friends, and families..

God Bless Lebanon

Lara M.N. El-Zahabi, MD
President - LeMSIC
Lebanese Medical Students' International Committee
Vice-President - IFMSA
International Federation of Medical Students' Associations

Private Address
American University of Beirut - Medical Center
P.O. BOX: 11-0236/E20
Beirut - Lebanon
Mobile: +961 3 702635
Fax: +961 1 366098

IFMSA General Secretariat
c/o World Medical Association
BP 63
012 12 Ferney-Voltaire Cedex
France

Neri Bar-On said...

@ Jad J

O.K. this is a bit long (hope you are in shelter for some time). If you can write some more about Zionism without then reduction of Zionism to Nazism I would be able to learn, but our new Israel Identity movement needs to address new name since Zionism idea is spoiled by the result of the creation of Israel and the Harm done to the Palestinians.

I also see it as regional idea that enables non Israelis to join to this re-shaping of our relationships. We should stop pay for our parents faults and take responsibility to help the needy (Palestinians, and probably after this cycle, to some period of time, to the Lebanoneeze) the new idea of Israel will need to enable other to use its abilities to address the need of the people. This is why we call it "Integral". Israel cannot disconnect itself from the Palestinians and let them kill each other or blame them that they cannot construct a sovereign state.


1- Show point by point what the fundamentals of Zionism are.

The origin of zionism is the notion of Jewish national unity, at the end of the 19th century a lot of the Jewish wisdom and resources were addressed Zionist idea of creating a Jewish state. After the Holocaust (1942) this drive become stronger. Jewish wisdom is know-how in science, technology, social management etc. through out history you can see that Jews were state-men and economists. Generally speaking Jews were successful people with wide knowledge but no territory. The Zionist movement reacted to the shamanism idea that explained Jewish success with bad manners The Holocost is manifestation of the shamanism and prove to the Zionist that they were right and people hate Jews just because they are Jews.

The harm of the Zionist start when the come to Palestine and start using "modern" low and economy. For instance, wanted to buy land so they see a village, they pay for the head of the village and send away all the villagers who did not own land. Then they bring Jewish workers, The Zionist movement know how to organize workers (AMIR PERETZ political career was in the HISTADRUT, a worker union and not in the army as you expect a minister of defense). In general they wanted Jewish workers and with their advantage pushed the Arab workers with the different world view out of work. With the Arab nationality movement the Zionism become more and more closed to the local people and put more effort to bring more jewish and establish a jewish economy. You can find today that "Israely-Arabs" in general have higher economic wealth and freedom from Arabs in other states but they still got higher economic and social barrier the jews in Israel.

A sketch:
Zionism I - origianly (19th century) create a state for the jewish people
Zionism II - (20th century)create Jewish state in Israel
Zionism III - (1930 and up) win the territory from the Palestinian
Zionism IV - (1948) secure territory of Jewish state; enable any Jew to be a citizen
Zionism V - (1967) control the Palestinians
Zionism VI - (1978) control the Palestinians and construct relationships with the arab world
New phase - (soon) remove Jewish priority (Jews are safe all over as everybody, even if current Zionist do not recognize that) become a model of open society thrive to mobilize resources to help the needy to thrive. Channel Western culture and Arab culture in a healthy way.

2- what point do u think have already failed
The Zionist failed to create a country without harm to other. They did not "see" the Palestinians since they told themselves that Palestine is empty. The Zionist failed to recognize that they need to become "one" with the Palestinians and Failed to enable the Palestinians to build their society.

3- what points do u think they are doomed to fail
Keeping "Jewish" priority in our Vision we doomed to stack in 19th century national ideas of abuse the land and the space. The human challenge now is to enable healthy echo-system that can harm us more then our stupid "I will kill more of you" behavior.

4- what point u do not agree on.
I think Israel created and exist, it needs to get our of it ethno-centric Zionist phase and get into more World-centric view that is open to the other humans of this region.

Jad J said...

Sagi and friends, do u think u can:
1- expose IAF usage of chemical weapons (coz this is the third time i hear about this, yesterday the LBC reporter said it experienced it herself)

2- organize some sort of humanitarian relief for the Bordering villages. coz we are finding hard time reaching them from this side!

Jad J said...

hmmm... i would like to hear the opinion of my fellow mirvat and Suha about this!!

Mitrii said...

"Jews are safe all over as everybody" I do not agree with this. I think that the Jewish state should exist. Moreover, the lost of Jewish nature of Israel will in my opinion destroy it. In practice this mainly (probably only) means that the citizenship should be granted to every Jew and almost exclusively to them. Certainly all citizens should be equal.

Jad J said...

Sagi i left u something on ure blog, check it out!

dubbon said...

Hizbollah please leave lebanon ,most of the people of lebanon would like to live in peace . no need for more islamic radicals .

Lazarus said...

Uninitiated United States Texan here:

Someone said - it's not the people, never the people's fault.

I hear that often from people in the Middle East. It usually is followed shortly there after by "that's why we have to kill everyone connected to your government."
The government IS THE PEOPLE! If your government doesn't represent you, then change it. If you can't do it with a vote, and you don't want to fight by whatever means necessary to make it your way, leave to find a place that is more to your liking.
This serves two purposes
1) If the government to your liking is within the wide boundaries of acceptance with your neighbors and the world, you'll be in good shape, will get support and help.
2) If the government to your liking is a hate-filled, aggressive style, GREAT. You're all in one place and can be wiped out with as little collateral damage as possible.

I'm sorry if this seems cold with people all around you on both sides of this war wounded and killed, but in the long run everyone must take responsibility for their own government. No one can make a slave of a freeman - the most you can do is kill him. If you are a slave of a government, no one can free slaves but the slaves themselves.
Look at the United States. The War Between the States (aka = Civil War - though I've never found any war civil) didn't free the slaves here. Those people weren't free until about 90 years later when in the 1947 they figured out, if they were good enough to participate in WW2 and die for this country, they were good enough to standup and vote in this country - and no damn white supremest had better stand in the way or there will be bloodshed. It worked! They freed themselves. Learn from them.

I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox. I don't know what your situation is, I'm just telling you what has worked here over and over again. Texas was a nation before it was a state. It got that way because people who believed the same freedoms were the right of ALL people made it happen with blood, sweat and tears.

Suha said...

Jad,

I am investigating ways to start some sort of forum. So, sorry if my response reveals that I haven't been following up closely on the discussion:

I do not think anyone here disputes Israel's right to exist. The question is how? I see that Jad and Omer at least, see that the solution starts with the Palestinians. Solve the problem there and the rest will follow. I could not agree more. I see the one state solution as the ideal one: a non-Jewish Israeli state of which the West Bank and Gaza are part. I know a lot of people would object to that, given the demographic factor (in a the single state solution, there are as many Arabs as there are Jews, which is a funny opposition). So perhaps a federal state?

Zionism fits in this vision perfectly. In its old form (I-IV in neri's expose) Zionism fed a lot on both nationalist and colonialist movements of the time (someone already pointed out the nationalist influence). The ethnic/religious make up of the early days of Israel meant not only that Christian and Muslim Arabs are not welcome, but also reflected itself on the treatment of the Mizrahim (the colonialist aspect of the debasement of Arabs/Orientals).

In its new form (as someone also pointed out, Israel is a multi-racial society) Zionism embraces differences (the demographic struggle plays a role here). Embracing the 1967 Palestinians as citizens can be theorized as the natural extension of a facet of Zionism (V-VI in neri's beautiful expose). I frankly do not have much trust in Arab governments and I think that this mutation in Zionism (i.e. Israel taking responsibility for the Palestinians) would unravel the Middle East dilemma.

Now, give us your objections:

Mitrii said...

Jad,

"expose IAF usage of chemical weapons" You mean "prove IAF usage of forbidden chemical weapons"?
I strongly doubt it: there is uniform consensus in Israel against usage of WMD, so uniform that it is impossible to cover (thousands people cannot keep it secret) and, if proved without doubt, it will result in immediate stop of all activities and trial of everyone involved. Only ultra-right idiots can suggest it, and only because they know nobody will listen them.

P.S. 50 missiles from Hezb today so far. Hezb puts small ballbearings inside the rockets
to increase the effect, cars look like colander (if I remember the word correctly).

Suha said...

Subrosa,
Afraid I am already married. But your IDF incursion is certainly ruining my marital life!

I don't have a server either for vBulletin. Maybe we could just start a regular blog and a mailing list. The blog can be the public forum. Mailing list can be where we formulate issues that we think are important before we address them in the public forum. Issues like in which pub we will have a beer when a peace treaty is signed.

naomba.com said...

suha:

it looked from your earlier post like you were doing the updating to the google map file? if so, do you need any help with it? let me know, as i'm around a computer all day and could offer some time
chris

Lazarus said...

Jad J , what chemical weapons have been used?

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Suha
The one state solution is unacceptable in the higest of israeli concenzus. furthermore it will turn israel in to lebanon with no clear ethnic majority. The best and accpetable solution is two states living side by side - Israel and Palestine with some repatriation of refugees to the plaestinian state (proably this will be from Lebanon). Te final borders and issue of Jeusalem should be left to the statesmen. Im sure that if it was left for Abbas - things would porbably go in that ditrection. Most Israeli's distane themselves from the settelments in the WB and the pullout from Gaza just streangthnd this.

Mitrii said...

Suha,

"I do not think anyone here disputes Israel's right to exist." For me non-Jewish Israel, with Palestinian majority, will become just another Arab state, i.e. will no longer exist. So thanks, but no thanks. I would say that two states solution is closer to be realistic.

But the main problem is that Palestinians will not change opinion about Israeli existence for many years (lets do not flame about reasons). So putting the solution of Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the first stage effectively pushes all hopes for Israel-Lebanon peace away for many years. Egypt, Jordan did not want to wait, so why Lebanon does? Do you want to struggle for "our Palestinian brethens" as Hezballah or start with peace at some place?

Jad J said...

how about a normal forum (invision power board) or a google group (i'm not a tech guy, just throwing ideas), i can establish one in less than 24 hours, just tell me who wants to be a moderator, admin, what categories u want?
how to prevent junks... and above all, Legalize our movement, coz with all what we're writing here, i expect a Black tinted car to stop in front of my house... or that was just during the syrian days ? and what about the other side, is it legal there?

@Mitrii
of course we want the peace, and its not that we want the palestians to get it first, not at all, i'm willing to start negotiations yesterday, but for ure own sake, and to shorten the time needed to change the prevailing false image, start with palestinians simultaneously if possible.

Neri Bar-On said...

@Mitrii

As I said not all Israelis see that the "Jewish" issue. And it not needs to destroy the Jewish nature of the Jewish communities.
Moreover the Israel entity can continue and support Jews (and Palestinians) who are attacked because their origin.

But this "Jewish" disables us from getting a state where "all citizens are equal." Because at this point Jews are equal more with right of return and other advantages.

So we will have Jewish communities and Jewish citizens side by side to Arab communities and one day we will have equal simple citizen community.

Mitrii we cause all the Jews in the world to be unsafe because the Israel state is recognized as the Jewish state who robed the Palestinians, we need to recognize it as the Arab need to recognize that Israel is here to stay.

The World is open to us with Ethernet and travel abilities, we need safety and justice more then Walls and borders and fake ethno-centric identity that cause tension.

mono said...

suha, i might be able to help out providing a server where a forum can be run.

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