Saturday, July 15, 2006

LEBANON IS HERE TO STAY

A very moving speech by Prime Minister Seniora. So moving, so moving.

The last thing he said is: Loubnan sa yabka, Loubnan sa yabka, Loubnan sa yabka! (Lebanon is here to stay!)

Yes, Lebanon is here to stay. No one has the right to destroy it, to undermine it. We have paid so much.

He reiterated that the Lebanese state needs to be strong, and is required to protect its citizens and establishments. Therefore, he declared that all parties need to cease fire, and negotiations need to start in cooperation with the international community. Second, the Lebanese Army needs to head out to the South in close cooperation with the UN. Third, a call to all friends of Lebanon to help Lebanon, a country declared as devestated, in every single way, through diplomacy, aid and so far.

He again said that the government does not endorse what Hizbullah did and was not aware of it. He also condemned strongly Israel's attacks which has led to many deaths of civilians, especially those families who were trying to flee the south. It's so disheartening. Lebanon is now facing a humanitarian crisis and also economic.

PM Seniora is a true statesman, no matter what many might say. Lebanon is here to stay, is here to stay, is here to stay!

He addressed the whole world from the heart of Beirut, not like how our President who headed to Faqra in the mountains.

Update: So an Israeli General said that the IDF did not afterall hit Syrian military posts on the Lebanon-Syrian border. They only hit inside the Lebanese territories, but next to the Syrian posts. He added that in the IDF defense strategy, it's not planned to have Syria hit, just Lebanon.

Thank you so much for letting us know. Of course it seems that Israel is hitting an easy target, Lebanon. No one can fight back, except for Hizbullah. We don't have a strong army. News even is saying that all of the Army radars positioned in Lebanon's ports have been destroyed by the IDF. So...please don't tell me Lebanon is not an easy target. It's not that the Syrian Army is equal in force to the IDF, but perhaps the IDF should hit those behind Hizbullah, not the Lebanese people.

Addendum: Peaceful World Wide Rally to Protest Ongoing attacks on LEBANON

France - le samedi 15 juillet 2006 à 15h00 Lieu La place des droits de l’homme à Trocadéro – Paris Métro Trocadéro.

USA / Los Angeles - infront of the Israeli embassy in LA. Saturday and Sunday, July 15 and 16, from 10am till 6pm.

USA / Washington - July18, 2006 (5-7pm) at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW - in front of the White House.

Bring Your Lebanese Flags!
Visit www.lebanonexpats.org for more information.

Update 11:26PM (Lebanon's time): Air raids on the city of Tripoli, in the north.

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

55 comments:

Jad J said...

Hey Doha, since this is one of the hottest blogs now, why dont u find a way to post ads (google adsense) and donate the revenue to the refugees, we'll all do whatever necessary to make those ads PAY.
feasible?

coz we have to start thinking of the aftermath.

Doha said...

jad j, i need to talk to my fellow bloggers, especially Raja who is in lebanon right now. Will check with him. thank you for your creative idea.

Jad J said...

oh and I pitty the Extreme israelis who swarmed this blog, at the beginning, i enjoyed reading what the people on the other side of the border had to say, i thought we had a chance to live with peace, now all u do is pointing fingers and criticizing how we ran our country for the last year, lets see you demonstrate against anything and gather more than 100 people. what cant u understand that the reason the itnernal talks were taking so much time is that we didnt want a civil war, a war we couldnt win, so everything was taking a bit of time but eventually we were getting at it, First, by having 4 religions coexist and distinguish themselves from all Radical Arabs.

As for the redundant phrase: "do u expect us to sit by while u kidnap our soldiers? " No we dont, go for the root, ure wasting ure bullets on hizbullah, why dont u hit Syria, we all know they are behind this (we all know that the soldiers are there by now), OR USA is bullying u too much so they dont face more trouble in Iraq? yeah, bigger countries have a tendency to do that.

ReVo said...

jad j: "go for the root, ure wasting ure bullets on hizbullah, why dont u hit Syria, we all know they are behind this"

Dont you worry. As Halutz said yesterday: Hizballah is the IMMEDIATE target.
Syria/Iran is next.

Jad J said...

to those who answered my post: dont put us in the same category as PLO fuckers or Najaf extremists, Jews used to live in lebanon between us christians, and muslims, but unfortunately, the area was overrun by insanity, religious isanity.

Dont tell us about "arab pride" and that shit, if u live in lebanon, u know damn well that this is not the case, anyway, this is useless, maybe after there will be peace, u'll see how much the lebanese are different from the rest of the arab radical world, probably after u visit Hamra and Achrafieh, u'll spend more time here than in Tel Aviv.

as for Hizbullah, he has been amassing rockets and hiding them in cache for the past 15 years under the syrian occupation, and everytime the army tried to intervene after syria came out, they instigate a problem that threatens internal peace (Hizbullah = Syrian gun in lebanon).

AND YES we asked foreign support, but not the military one, go take a course in urban warefare and u'll know that Hizbullah is very well dug in in lebanon (thanks again to syria), so a direct confrontation would ruin the country even more than than what the IDF is doing now. So the pressure was being made via political mediums. Why do u think Israel decided to attack Hizbullah this year and didnt do so when he was doing fiercer attacks on Israel before? that is becoz ISRAEL is forbidden or DOES NOT want a direct confrontation with Syria, although they could win easily, and I as Lebanese, and as an Expert in regional politics, I tell u that Nasrallah wouldve died politically in lebanon IF Israel dropped JUST ONE bomb on damascus, or if IDF waited more till the US and international community increased the pressures on syria, and therefore, open the way for less radical leaders to take charge of Hizbullah and start transforming it into a political party and disarm it with the help of the remaining lebanese. THAT WAS THE PLAN: WEAKEN NASRALLAH and make way for more popular but less radical leaders (who were hated by the syrian regime). but dont claim ure expert in lebanese politics just as we dont claim to be expert in Israeli politics...

Mojoski said...

I agree. The message sent from Lebanese who love Lebannon should be one of condemnation of Hezballah. If you allow this situation to somehow unite the people of Lebannon in support of Hezballah's actions, then you will be playing right into Hezballah's hands.

I hope the message coming from freedom loving, peace loving Lebanese will be one of condemnation and destruction of Hezballah.

Papa Ray said...

War is ugly, but peace has to be bought with blood.

If you and the average Lebanese want peace, here is what you need to do.

Get a weapon, go out at night, find Hizbullah, kill them. Hide your weapon until the next night and do it over and over and over. Get your friends and relatives to do the same.

If you do it long enough, guess what? They will leave or surrender (no, forget that, they are too stupid and mad with years of hate to do that).

If you want to live and to prosper, for your children and your grandchildren to have a good life, free from war, you must fight and even die to do this.

Many have discovered this simple fact, many have died for it. Americans have died for this for not only themselves but also for millions of other peoples of this earth.

When you can do that, when you care more for your children and for your grandchildren than you do for your own life...

Then you will have peace and freedom. Until you and your countrymen do, you will be nothing more than slaves and have nothing.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Tsedek said...

I hope all will jump on this suggestion of Seniora for a truce - and the UN especially. I also hope the soldiers will be able to come back home with this truce.

Tse.

Jad J said...

for those calling for military fighting, we did that from 1972 till 1991, it got us nowhere, becoz whatever number of souls we lost, if there is a regional DEAL that has to pass, everything will go up the wind, we fought the PLO, then the Syrians for 17 years, then when USA needed syria's support in the first gulf war (yes its support to close its long border on iraqi supplies), the USA then gave Syria the green light to use the Air-force (which was forbidden to her to do so or else Israel would shoot every plane down) and was able to break the Status-quo, break all our fortifications and overrun the country. and since there is too much turmoil in the area, we dont want to be the victims of "big boyz deals" after loosing so many souls. That is why we do not want to carry guns against syria and hizbullah.
and for those telling us to ask for french military intervention, WAKE UP, the mighty USA is still facing problems in iraw coz the neighbours are still helping insurgents, and the insurgents themselves were well prepared for urban warefare, even if the iraqi population is trying to fight them as well and pinpointing them, but still, regional powers and intervention is the key.

FUCK IT KILL THE HEAD, KILL DAMASCUS and TEHRAN!

Jad J said...

to anon 2:51,

please read carefully what i'm writing, i'm being as comprehensive as possible, the 25% are controlled by 40,000 with an iron fist, and in small geographical areas (easily controllable), Hizbullah is expert in that stuff.
and i said also (damn i hate repeating myself) that there are less radical but MORE POPULAR Leaders amongst those 25%, but for the reasons mentioned above they cannot just go tell Nasrallah: "ure not our leader"... hehehe u clearly dont watch his speeches how much "Hitleristic" he is.

now when the IDF operation first started, I was hailing it, it was working great:
1- isolating the missile cache through bridges destroyed
2- isolating the south, his base of operation.
3- clearing out the dahyeh from civilians (with various means), so less human shields, less wrong targets for F16s, less chaos for the IDF intelligence on the ground, and making those 25% more dispersed and less controllable by the 40,000 i mentioned above
4- the IDF attacks were smart in a sense of making those 25% get more angry from hizbullah (no power, no water, no medicine, no supplies, no nothing becoz of the "mistake" hizbullah committed and broke his promise to the lebanese of not crossing the blue line)

but, today, the operation is taking a completely different approach, they are targeting the Hizbullah adversaries. like the Manara area, and Junieh.

I'm not worried about the cost of few bridges, that can be repaired with all the money we are going to receive soon after the operation is done, but the civilian casualties are my concerns, the israeli are attackin civilians, and from the last 2 days, they were able so far to kind-of differentiate between friend from foe. now, the IDF is trigger happy.

I know that when the operation is done, and IF, just IF, hizbullah is destroyed, Lebanon will flourish much more than wat it was before the 1970s, but at what price? a price that the IDF is making very high.

Ori from Israel said...

Lebanon should exercise its sovreignty on all of its territory, including the southern border with Israel. It is the undisturbed activity of Hizballah, ynder the Iranian and Syrian protection, that provoked the IDF into targeting specific areas in Lebanon. Israel has no dispute with the state of Lebanon, but only with those organizations based in Lebanon that wish to exterminate Israel itself.

Israel and Lebann are the most progressive countries in the Muddle East. Therefore, they both have vested interst in calming down the atmosphere and exercise normal relationships - even without an official agreement.

Joel said...

Realistically, the time for pompous prouncements from Lebanese politicians has come and gone, and won't come back for a while. Carefully measured statements of criticism of Hezbullah aren't enough; strong statements aren't enough.

The Lebanese are going to have to decide if their fear of or love of Hezbollah is greater than their fear of what the IDF can do to a nation that is at war with Israel.

So far, alas, it appears that they're still relying on the old skills at playing the victim and playing the helplessness card.

That working out real well for you?

Omer (israeli) said...

I wan't to congradulate the lebanese. I hope Olmert will bring the boys back home.
Enoght is enoght. we did enoght damage.

Jad J said...

anon 3:12

there was a solution, a coup inside hizbullah, and it was close, but the IDF blew it up with this wide scale operation, instead, they couldve retaliated with a surgical strike and therefore made more resentment towards nasrallah...

as for the protest... i wish i can participate :D if u can manage to upload it as a stream on the net, we would be glad...

anyway, what's done is done, what we to do now is what anon3:10 is trying to do, and what i'm trying to do: "bridge the gaps" and start working for the aftermaths...

and lets hope the IDF dont get more trigger happy.

as for the solution of the hatred, of the peace talks.. etc... can we start a blog for that, if anyone is interested, please email me...

damn... i forgot to eat and drink for the last 10 hours after all these posts :(

nuggs said...

here is a map

http://www.debka.com/pictures/Lebanon.jpg

Jad J said...

anon 3:22, who's the civilized and educated here, Israeli or Hizbullah?

If hizbullah are such criminals to hide behind women and children, does that mean you should kill them, ure a jew for god sake, a believer of god, a god that does not kill people like Saddam, Taliban and Algerian extremists did.

You have a moral responsibility to promote proper civilized behavior. I see now on ManarTV (hizbullah station which should be bombed by the way) people showing burnt children on tv to promote hatered towards Israel. and some israeli extreme newspaper show all the deaths made by hizbullah attack, and that results in total hate... the lebanese watching this would hate all Israelis, and israelis hate all lebanese (like i'm sensing in the posts). This thing has to stop.

Do u ever wondered why the arab muslims hate u so much: becoz u treat them very wrong, but thats not the only reason, the real reason is that their extreme, politically oriented religious figure use those pictures and videos and feed it to their children. (I hate extremism in all religions, even those perverted priests in New york)

That is why, the only way to face so much hatred that became a vicious cycle of "who came first? chicken or egg?" is to restructure the education, and control the media like Jazeera, Al Manar and whatever extreme israeli tv that uses such graphical images to promote Hatred.

Muxecoid said...

Doha, didn't you tell once that the true ruler of Lebanon is Nasralla and prime minister does not have power to control anything?

patrick said...

SAVE LEBANON. DESTROY HEZBOLLAH.

It's the only path to peace in Lebanon. When Israel withdrew from south Lebanon in 2000, they scrupulously followed UN resolutions and got UN to sign off on the border. OTOH Hezbollah decided to keep firing occasional rockets. They have had many provocations, but Israel decided to ignore them until now. In January, Hezbollah made a policy to try to kidnap IDF soldiers. That is an ACT OF WAR. Now, the crossed the border and killed and kidnapped soldiers, deliberately provoking Israel at a time when Hamas in Gaza made the same provocations. These groups deny even the right of Israel to exist and foment hatred and preach genocide against Jews.

Iranian Guards are advisors to Hezbollah. They helped fire the missile that damaged Israel's ship, thay helped build Hezbollah border posts used to attack israel. It's unfortunate that Lebanon is a pawn of a Syrian-Iran pincer attack on Israel (from Gaza/Hamas and Lebanon/Hezbollah).

So what are Lebanese expecting from Israel? To do nothing while Hezbollah crosses into israel and kills IDF soldiers?!? Of course, Israel will respond to an act of war with war against Hezbollah. The problem is that now Hezbollah was let into Lebanese Govt, it's like letting a terrorist into your house - you are now prisoners of his violence and/or complicit by not stopping it sooner.

It is stunning and sad that Hezbollah forces have popular support among Lebanese Shiites, but these groups would be nothing without $100s of millions from Iran and Syria's sponsorship and support. The Shiite community has to be talked down from being used as pawns for the agressions of Iran, and the other communities -Christian, Druze, Sunni - have to make a fundamental break with Hezbollah and deman

There is no requirement to share a Government with Hezbollah, if they will not comply with UN resolution to disarm, remove them from the Govt. Force a de-escalation or force them out. The UN resolution requiring dismantling of militias must be enforced. A Lebanese Army that keeps the peace at the southern border must replace the terrorist activity of Hezbollah.

This act of war was a proxy attack from Iranian and Syrian interests. It's not Lebanon's war - it is Hezbollah's and Syria's war. Just as the PLO destroyed Lebanon's peace in the 1970s by destabilizing and sparking civil war, Hezbollah's irresponsible behavior may drag Lebanon back down again.

If this is not done, Lebanon will keep paying the price for being a base camp for terror-masters.

And if Lebanese say "No we don't have the power to do this". Well - If the Lebanese can't do it, let IDF do the dirty work, and stay safe while they do this ugly but necessary thing. I hope Lebanon is better for it in the long run.

Omer (israeli) said...

how do you make those groups feel disempowered in the first place? by destroying their homes, livelihood, communications, currency, *avenues of participation with the world at large* and by making them feel less then human.


Right on. violance works in two directions: 1. It justifies violance, so it makes u more violent. 2. it makes other people, hurt by violance more violant.

Someday, we will have to put down our arms and live in peace. Maybe with social and econimical ties to former enemeis. Isreal had exllent relation with iran up till the revolution. I hope one day, we all come to our senses.

Jad J said...

anon 3:43

didnt u continue reading my sentence man... why do all look for a loophole and argue for the sake of argument... in all my posting, did i seem in anyway unethical, unlogical and/or irrational?

read please before u comment.

and if u truly want peace for the sake of ure children.... dont give those extremists materials to feed their children on. materials = kicking an old lady in the stomach, throwing an old man on the ground, shooting women and children... (those were all on tv, its not from my imagination).

and what those extremists do is take those videos from one incident, and feed it to 100,000 teenager and breed them to grow up and hate u. u shouldve learned that after 60 years of constant wars.

You should both work on your hatred issues.

Jad J said...

again i repeat myself... pfff... dont confuse the lebanese with the rest of the sick arabs... even lebanese sunni's are not the iraqi sunni's....

and for them military operation, You, Me, and every military expert in the world knows that if IDF wants, they can kill that bastard nasrallah with one blow, your intelligence is all over the ground, they are even being helped by lebanese or else how come ure IDF is locating so much targets... UAVs.. yeah right, u clearly didnt visit Dahyeh...

so spare me the scientific and militaristic expertise, we all know that they couldve ended this the first day. whenever the IDF wants to assasinate a bastard PLO or Hizbullah or wahtever, they quickly find him and target him with a damn missile and send him to his "virgins". thats what i'm talking about u schmuck.

and its becoz of warmongers like you (anon3:58 and the like) that the extremists find an excuse to attack.... and u say pacifism does not work... well did war work??? look where it got u.

why do i bother to answer extremists like u, i know my fellow countrymen, i know we're not extremists, and i STARTED to know more non-extremist, reasonable israelis.... so screw u!

marc said...

Why has Lebanon not uprooted Hizbollah in the past years? The answer is very complicated, granted, but one has to make choices: do we live with terrorists? or do we eliminate them? No amount of negotiating is going to do any good with people who believe that Israel ought to be destroyed. My prayers are with all the many non-combatant Lebanese; but I agree with the commenters supra who have remarked that when war is necessary (i.e. when the one party is incapable of negotiating and is intent on violence, even to the point of putting its forces intentionally in close proximity to non-combatants), it is better that the party of violence die, even forty thousand people, so that the millions can live in peace. Someone upthread 'didn't want to get into Hitler, the Nazis etc': that is simply not acceptable, particularly in this case.

Anonymous said...

Doha,

First and formost, congratulations on your heartfelt posts and for maintaining this forum during these difficult times.

After listening to PM siniora tonight, I can honestly say that I love the man! He is classy, elegant, smart, and most of all genuine. As much as I despise Hizbollah and would love for them to just GO THE HELL AWAY, right now we need to be united---against the unjustified Israeli aggression. Tonight, I do not despise Emile Lahoud, and I will refrain from mocking him (and for those who know me...thats a collossal sacrifice I am making). Instead, tonight, I am a Lebanese eager to stand side by side with all other Lebanese, no matter how 'Pro-Syrian' they may be. Mr. Olmert, Hassan Nasrallah was right...you are an idiot. Your miscalculation that by bombing all of Lebanon you would cause us to mobilize against Hizballah is an idiotic notion. Your inexperience is clear to me now. Israelis deserve a much wiser leader.

-FGA

Jad J said...

umm... lets not accuse people by their religion, i'm a christian same as many pacifists on this site, the creators of this blog are muslims i guess... and the visitors are mainly israeli... but fanatics are fanatics whatever tehir religion is.

and read this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886004129&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Jad J said...

oh sorry Suha, didnt realise its u coz this blog is swarmed with loonatics, really, those bastards should be transferred somewhere else.

and we need to establish a system for this blog, coz soon, as things begin to escalate, epecially if the army takes some time to move to the south, the IDF will increase their bombings and i fear that the internet wont be available to everybody, so Doha and Raja shuld increase their ranks, pick people from around lebanon to help them update the blog if their internet goes down, that is if they are in an relatively unsafe place. Especially that so many depend on this blog.

and can we put some "votes" on this site, like "as a lebanese, do u support peace talks with israel?" or "do u think that Hizbullah ministers shuld be expelled from the government or this would alienate the Shii'a base from the rest of the lebanese?".. .etc... just to "nghayyir jaww chwey :P "

kato said...

hui, some comments are really inappropriate. these poor fellows lack quite some intellect and just follow hatred, which they have been flooded with.

also the entire campaign of israel seems totally inappropriate to me. this violence will just back the hisbollah, because it seems the only force that at least has some minor success. the leb government has no measures whatsoever, especially that the rest of the world refuses to help and find a way without all this violence. this is a paradoxon to me!

it just fuels the hate, and weakens the lebanese constition, especially due to the fact that almost everything that cud have lead to stability in the future has been bombed.

i feel sad bout the fact that the most european countries are cowards. im a german and our government still doesnt have the courage to stand up to isreal. in fact, we just play to the usa. thats pathetic!

its so sorry that there is no help from our countries, while its obvious that unjustness is being done and a whole country is being victimized, once again.

1earth said...

Oksy 4:57

Israel is responsible for its actions. I agree. They are killing Lebanese civilians.

But Lebanon is not responsible for Lebanese actions?

There was quiet in Lebanon until attacks from Lebanon bombarded relatively quiet Israeli towns and killed and kidnapped soldiers. Lebanon is responsible for starting this whole mess.

4:59 That is quite a conspiracy you have cooked up. So the USA forced Hezbollah to attack Israel in order to justify an attack on Iran? Your tin foil hat is too tight.


I have another question:

If Israel ends the attacks now and gives an unconditional ceasefire what happens next? Is it incorrect to expect more attacks will come from Lebanon, that more Israelis will get kidnapped and killed and injured?

1earth said...

Kato how much can Israel be concerned with Lebanese public opinion?



The Lebanese never lifted a finger against Hezbollah in the past.

What is everybody suppose to do? Wait until Hezbollah gets tired of attacking Israel?

kato said...

the problem is that due to this act of violence, the hisbollah has been legitimised for a lot of people again, because i guess for these people it seemed to be the only party, which tried to defend leb. they dont see that it had no positive effect at all.

the PM wants to settle the root of all evil, namely the palestine - israel conflict, which for him his the reason that the hisbollah is still existing. i think, its more an excuse, for the fact the the leb gov has no measures to disarm the hisbollah. and i dont think that the this main reason will be solved that soon.

but bombing lebanon, and ruining the life of a whole generation is not an answer to the problems of israel either. but acutally it rather seems, that these strikes have been planned way ahead. israel just needed a reason, these were those two soldiers.

is there anything else behind this aggression against leb? i think they just pretend the soldiers being the reason for the attacks.

1earth said...

Kato, you are not being rational. You think Israelis wanted to leave their children, wives and girlfriends to go fight in Lebanon for no reason? If you do hold that vicious belief that shows Germany has not changed at all in 60 years and talking to you is pointless.


Did Israel strike Lebanon before the Lebanese aggression against Israel? Before those 2 soldiers were kidnapped and 8 soldiers were killed while Israeli communities were bombarded as distraction?

The answer is no. Despite the fact Israel had plenty of opportunities to respond in the past. There have been 6 attacks from Lebanon yet not a single response like this from Israel.

You never heard about those Lebanese provocation because they didn't succeed. This act of Lebanese aggression did succeed so Israel can't ignore it.

Again, if Lebanon won't or can't stop attacking Israel what is Israel suppose to do? Should Israel let Lebanon attack whenever it feels like it? No country in the world would tolerate that.

Suha said...

Hi Ronit,

I am from Lebanon, but a friend from Tel Aviv told me about the demo. Now I realize someone else posted about it on this blog:

We'll meet at 19:00 on the corner of Frishmann and Chen Blvd.
Those who can help making signs should come as of 16:00 to "haGada haSmalit", 70 Ahad Ha'am St.
For more information: 050-7425484 / 050-6230249. Details concerning transportation from other cities will appear later on.


Gestalt therapy is great. I know a great therapist from the community in Lebanon. I hope your conference goes as well as it can under the circumstances.

Layla Tov.

kato said...

oh cmon, which risk do they take, by flying a plane over an area, which has no air defense at all. or sitting on a heavy warship, miles on the sea. i guess they feel pretty comfortable with their situation.

they military power cant be compared in any way, with the lebanese. in fact lebanese doesnt have any military power. its the hisbollah, which answers the fire and not for sake of the leb gov. u might recognise, that it splits the country. but u have to read carefully!

and dont judge me because im a german. u cant put anyone just of his origin into one box. thats pathetic.

so this act succeeded this time, and now they got there reason to answer. is it what u are saying. the past attemps from lebanese side havent been successfull enough, to get a reason to bomb lebanon. there are a lot of things which are not covered in the press, and there are a lot on israel side as well. they both have their skeletons in the closet. but israel got obviously the better press cover.

Jay said...

the israelis on this site have been the most hateful, disgusting voices here. the most racist. the most oppressive. the most aggressive.

Agreed
Its very frustrating reading some of the vile comments israelis have left on this post. I am a christian thats lived in lebanon my entire live (34 yrs) I never hated Israel but to be honest this f--- everyone attitude thats not Jewish or dosent agree with their opinions only plays into the extremists on both sides, perhaps they are just that....

Justme said...

Kato
A small explanations about how armies work,
Armies has objectives and the strategy to achive them, In this case defending Israel and countering the missile threat and other agression from the northen boarder, Israel strategy was always to attack the source of the threat (Attack is the best defence)

Armies like good business have drawer plans (In business it would be called contingency plans), Covering a what if scenarios and training is done according to the most proabable scenarios, All the army need in order to start qualify a plan is to get the carte verte from the exective branch.

So Kato, you are right, the plans existed for I don't know how long and for some reason the army could convice the executive (I.E goverment) that it these specific plans (There are many scenarios and many many plans) are the best for this period of time and the objective that the goverment is trying to achieve.

So Kato I don't see you comment as a very surprising ALL good armies should act in the same manner (As do good business) But as opposed to busness the last decision must be kept in for the goverment (As was done)

However, what we both don't know is why did the executive branch deem these specific plan the best for this specific period and what objectives should be fullfilled, I think that we just heard mostly propoganda and half truths, and I do hope that the fact that our leaders lack of great military background did not affect their judgment and they let the army decide for them (That is forbidden) armies should thrive to do their tasks but its the head that has the overview.

Mark Hansen said...

I feel Lebanon's pain, but I also understand why Israel did what it did. It reminds me of a song that went something like "You're right from your side, and I'm right from mine." You can make a good argument for each side. I don't like war, but sometimes our emotions get in the way. Mark

Justme said...

Kato,
You make war seem like a game, it is not and I really hope none of the participants think it is; there is always a risk. War should happend when all else fails, whether it failed or not is a topic of conversation but as I mentioned above we don't have all the scope of information needed to get to any conclusion,

But I also think that enough is enough I for myself would rather compromise my life than my ideals, but maybe I would have thought differently if I was in charge of 5 million Israelies

kato said...

@jay: i guess israelis, who really want to discuss this topic, dont look for a private blog, which covers the lebanese experience of this war.

@justme: yes i understand that armies have to prepare everything in advance, especially if they are in the middle of an everlasting conflict. but this plan, they are just following has more intentions than just those two soldiers. all these attacks, were not directly targetet against the threat. i just looks like they target to cut hisbollah from all their supplies.

i guess u r right that there are lot of more things behind the scenes. all we get to know bout it, is what they want us to hear.

kato said...

i dont think war is a game.

but history has shown, that leaders also victimize certain things for their greater goal.

Jay said...

I believe this is part of the US vision for the middle east that israel is a part of. there seems to be a much bigger picture here. I know that the israeli lobby controls the Bush administration or portions of it. maybe im thinking to much of a giant conspiracy here but I don't trust the US or israelis intentions.

Justme said...

You have got a good point, I sure hope this is not the case as Israel may loose more than it gets,

I sure lost a lot already and hope to be able to repay for that

Guten nacht and hope for better days and soon.

patrick said...

I'm not impressed by a peace rally in Tel Aviv. Yawn, been going on for a while. btw, you'd think after Oslo, withdrawal from Gaza, initiative after initiative, and giving up much of west back and gaza, the Israeli appeasers would have lost credibility. Peace and Hamas cannot co-exist.

What WOULD be impressive if there was one in the Gaza strip. Or a protest in Beirut against Hezbollah crossing borders and kidnapping and killing foreign soldiers ... THAT would be impressive! THAT would be different!

kato said...

gute nacht :) fingers crossed for a soon and peaceful ending of this dilemma

Moon River said...

So moving your Prime Minister Seniora, so moving, all his army find to do tonight is to send missile over an Israeli air plain.
not for god sake, a missile to stop the terrorist who doesn't give a damn about Lebanon sovereignty, but over an Israeli missile that is trying to eliminate the aggressors who takes control on the South of Lebanon, forming an extremist country -feed by Iranian money - a country with in a country - what they want is to create an other Iran model in the middle east, but Prime Minister Seniora, finds it's urge in showing off, god knows what and send missile on an Israeli air craft
the air craft was not harmed. lucky for us and lucky for you

patrick said...

"I know that the israeli lobby controls the Bush administration or portions of it."

This is a slander against the Bush administration and America. America is a friend to many democratic states facing challenges (eg India). US forced Israel to make tough concessions to help try to build peace. America is sending $50 million to Palestinians this week, and have spend billions on the Palestinian Authority, giving them more than any Arab nation is doing. And Bush supports a Palestinian state. All this to try to build peace. But its not worked until now because militants and terrorists have more influence over these communities than peacemakers. Many in the world cravenly knee-jerk to oppose Israel because of pressure from the Arab world, eg, France.

The US looks unique because the US resists following the world's double-standard against Israel; eg, does the world, does the UN, condemn Russia's actions in Chechnya, which have killed thousands upon thousands of civilians the way they berate Israel over far more restrained actions?

"maybe im thinking to much of a giant conspiracy here"
If you want to look for conspiracy look for the fact that Iran sends millions to support Hezbollah, and this happens at a time when UN security council is trying to craft a response to Iran's nuclear program.

" but I don't trust the US or israelis intentions."

Israel is defending their right to exist.
You can trust Israel completely to not attack you if you leave them alone, and to attack agressively those who try to harm Israel. If Hezbollah didnt deliberately cross the border and kill and kidnap soldiers and bomb Haifa with rockets, then the IDF would still be in Israel.

It's your choice to like or dislike Isreal based on that, but most any nation would behave the same way if they were so attacked.
We've made many excuses for terrorist groups over the years, but Europe is hit by Islamic terrorism now too, and civilized world is getting tired of the excuses. These terrorist groups need to be disarmed or dissolved. It's the only way to peace.

Jay said...

Patrick,
have you read of the war crimes, torture and rape going on in Iraq commited by your soldiers? you have read of the young girl raped and murdered with her family? your government is commiting war crimes but you refuse to see, what a shame.

Alien Pundit said...

The world is standing with Lebanon, few Americans are Israeli/Zionist supporters. We condem the Israeli massacre of Lebanese civilians. The IDF, the Mossad and the rest of the gangster that run Israel will reap what they saw and will pay a very heavy price for their nazi-like expansionist, militaristic and murderous agression. They will face the Hague like the Nazis when all this is over.

Long live Lebanon!

kato said...

but unfortunately it now shows, how little sovereignty lebanon actually has and how little backing from any other side than arab. that just feeds and strengthens all the parties, which are opposing the leb government.

but who would u have to attack then. if u know that iran is supporting the hisbollah, as syria is. now that u attack lebanon, it doesnt help in any way getting rid of the hisbollah, does it.

it sounds to idealistic to me that israel just wants to help to remove all the hisbollah influence from lebanon and build up a lebanon, which will be able to stand without the help of any militarisic organisation paid by syria or iran. with a broken economy, it wud be on the western world to help lebanon on the right track again, to avoid any of these militant influences.

- dont begin with this discussion, about who did what. this doesnt help at all. u cant measure every single thing that has been done. u have to overcome this mutual accusations, otherwise u will be stuck in this situation and wont find a way out.

Moon River said...

Alien Pundit you say in your profile page":
"I'm inspired by the ideals of democracy"
yet you talk and insult in a way it is a wonder and a shame USA have let you in.
people such as you can only poison the country, and your hatred - so typical to ignorant extremist - so pity to see you have not taken the advantage of really apprehending what democracy is and freedom of living and beauty of this world. you are for noting!

Lazarus said...

Jay says -
I know that the israeli lobby controls the Bush administration or portions of it. maybe im thinking to much of a giant conspiracy here but I don't trust the US or israelis intentions.
The only part that is right is you're into a giant conspiracy fantasyland Come on, don't try to blame the U.S. because a group in Lebanon invaded Israel. The U.S. isn't some great big boogieman out to run the world. I realize it is natural to see such devastation and want to blame someone or something of great power for it. It just doesn't seem possible that punk egotist like Nasrallah could get this thing started and it expand so fast. It was hard for the U.S. citizens to believe a few nuts, on the orders of a bigger egocentric nut, could bring down the World Trade Towers. But it happened.
When something big happens it just doesn't seem to balance out unless something else big caused it. But the sad truth is little people can do a lot of damage.

I hope y'all are getting some rest tonight. I hope you're all safe, but I know it's only my wish because all of you are not. - sadness -

patrick said...

"Mr. Olmert, Hassan Nasrallah was right...you are an idiot. Your miscalculation that by bombing all of Lebanon you would cause us to mobilize against Hizballah is an idiotic notion."

Wait a second. Nobody miscalculated more than Nasrallah here! Hezbollah announced their policy of kidnapping IDF soldiers back in late 2005.
See:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1528479/posts
""Our experience with the Israelis shows that if you want to regain detainees or prisoners ... you have to capture Israeli soldiers," Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah told a rally in Beirut to mark the handover of the bodies."

Did anyone in the Lebanese Government or other parties condemn this or highlight its implications at the time? Did Nasrallah anticipate his kill-and-kidnap policy would create a war? Or is this exactly what Hezbollah wants, lots of Lebanese killed?

Nasrallah is hiding behind the shield of Lebanese patriotism and to this non-Lebanese it seems a transparent ploy. Just as terrorist groups often use 'human shields', Nasrallah is abusing Lebanese solidarity. Instead of crowing he should be apologizing for miscalculating and creating a conflict ... The IDF and Israel is not asking the Lebanese to mobilize against Hezbollah, the time for that has passed. That has been asked for some time, but didnt happen. Now, the IDF is doing it by force. It's a sad thing to see Lebanon suffer as a consequence of Hezbollah's misguided aggressive.

We also hear that Fouad Siniora offered to deploy the forces along the international border with Israel according to UN Resolution 1559 in a ceasefire offer. Great --- why didn't this happen BEFORE Hezbollah crossed the border and killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers? Israel will not stop unless both Hezbollah is defanged (ie disarmed) and the soldiers are returned. So the ceasefire offer to be credible needs to at least include the immediate return of kidnapped soldiers.

patrick said...

Jay, I am aware of that terrible crime.
Many people are more aware of the crimes of a few US soldiers than of the compassion and heroism of many.
Have you read the story of the American soldier who was an expert in defused IEDs, called to a house where a young Iraqi boy had been wired up with a suicide bomb? That American soldier risked his life and saved the boys life. This man died in Iraq serving to help the US and Iraq. This story got no publicity because he did just what so many are doing every day. He was killed by cowards who plant bombs on roads, sometimes killing soldiers and sometimes killing Iraqi civilians. A few weeks back US soldiers saved an Iraqi baby's life, she had been left on the side of the road when her sister caring for her got scared by a pack of dogs. On a regular basis, civilian Iraqi victims of terrorist bombs are taken to US military hospitals for care.

No, you didnt hear that story, or the daily acts of heroism by US soldiers to do simple things like , you only want to spread the ugly side of things. Yes, there are crimes happening - of the Thousands of civilians being killed in Iraq each year in the violence, most are killed by the insurgents in terrorist attacks. For example today: "A suicide car bomb exploded near a police commando checkpoint in eastern Baghdad killing two police commandos and wounding four, police said." Also:

"NEAR KUT - Gunmen sprayed a minibus with machinegun fire on the outskirts of Kut, southeast of Baghdad, killing five Shi'ite pilgrims, including a woman and a child, Captain Mohammed al-Shimari of Kut police said."

Jay, you can talk about the one unusual crime, which is not a 'war crime' but an awful crime by a few individual soldiers having no sanction by US military and which will be punished severely as such by authorities. Go ahead and castigate US for faults, but dont have a double standard; make every other military and Govt live up to same standard.

And open your eyes to the real threat to Iraq's stability, the continued terrorist attacks by anti-Iraqi Govt forces. Terrorists are killing many Iraqis each day.

Many of those terrorists are Islamic Jihadists from other countries. e.g. Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda in Iraq leader, was from Jordan, the Samarra Golden Dome mosque bombers were from Tunisia, although the leader was a former member of Saddam's Secret Police.

The US promised Iraq Sovereignty and democratic Government and 3 elections in 2005 forming a Constitution and setting up elected new Government shows the commitment of the coalition to democracy in Iraq, and Iraqis want it as well. But Al Qaeda has made clear they have a goal of inciting sectarian violence, attacking Shiite mosques and civilian targets repeatedly as well as Iraqi police and army, and now Al Sadr's Mahdi Army has joined in by killing Sunnis. Al Sadr represents the Hezbollah/Iranian Regime mindset, and between them and Al Qaeda

Jay, don't be blind to real cause of violence in the middle east. Islamo-fascism in Shia and Sunni form and and the related tentacles and terrorist/militant groups is behind most of the wars happening today on planet earth.

Doubt me? Read up on the July 10 Mumbai bombing. "A series of seven explosions killed at least 174 people on crowded commuter trains and stations Tuesday evening in the Indian financial capital of Mumbai, police said."
Islamicist terror groups, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed, are to blame.

peaceinlebanon said...

GOD SAVE LEBANON!

WWW.peaceinlebanon.com

Jay said...

Parick,
in response to above. The rape and murder of the young girl and her family, Abu Ghraib, Haditha the Mukaradeeb wedding massacre in 2004 and many more war crimes we have not heard I am sure. I sure that there a good american soldiers in iraq but you invaded for oil and control and for Israel to get rid of saddam. everyone in the world knows this except americans i think. you say Islamo-fascism is the cause of all the problems now you have made it worse. they were not in iraq before and now they are, Iran is now stronger as you have given them the Shia in Iraq. hamas and hezbollah are now stronger because of your countries bad policies. I like america, i lived there for two years to study, but your government are war criminals, they are not fighting for democracy only for their own power and control of oil and resources and for israel. open your eyes, stop treating the world like they are your children there will only be a chance for peace when the US stays out of our affairs. I am sure you are a nice man but you don't understand what is happening here and you are blinded by your governments propoganda. Bush should be in prison for war crimes.
J

Jay said...

Patrick
read this blog and maybe it will help you understand
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

F said...

as a Palestinian overview , regardless to whome violation it was, tha Lebaneese represented by their resistance Hizullah showed morality and ethics in their replies, the Zionist Milichia,late in 1948 called the israeli army,the same way they fought against the palestinians, they used exessive power to hit the civilians and kill in tens the innoccents.
they fought with us decades and they still not realizing that our freedom, lands, union, dignity and history are more precious to us than our lives .
i don't mean that we don't love life, but what i mean we are full with hope to get all our lands and prisoners back, and we inherit this for every generation not because we hate you or we want revenge, but because you are still dominating on those 2 things.
we want peace for you too but not on our lands.
your army decided to smash our bones with stones, your army killed our infants, prevented our casulities to get any cure and enclosed our villages and ..Build Berline Wall....disconnect between our villages..occupy the Haram Al Sharif,,..and we still say palestine!!we still say dignity!!we still fight for freedom!!
are u convinced with what your government say: we will disarm hizbullah??is it a computer game ?
Don't you hear how Taliban now is figting against the USA after they declared that they don't exist any more!!you have to wake up!!you have to read realities as they are !! i may be convinced if your Gov. say that they will demolish Bairut but not the people there. because there ideology is much more stronger than you expect.
i say in my last words, you have to urge your government, army , and yourselves to respect the arabs and their rights.