Wednesday, July 19, 2006

Deja Vu All Over Again

This morning on the East Coast, we're greeted with: Open confrontation between the Israeli Army and Hizbullah on the Lebanese southern borders.

Ashrafieh was hit with 4 bombs destroying two trucks. Apparently trucks now are military targets and need to be avoided at all costs. I wonder now how humanitarian aid will get to the battered southern villages.

For all those from the south, my heart goes with you. The death toll and destruction is greater than anyone can fathom. 23 have died and tens wounded by overnight shelling of ten houses in Srifa. And then Salaa was targeted; a two-storey house collapsed on its occupants killing a family of 10 who were buried under the rubble.

These are only few examples.

And by the way, doesn' t it feel like deja vu to many when you read (or hear) that we're getting "aid" from such and such country? Aid in the form of packages that include food items and blankets, etc.? Yalla, ya Libnan, we have truely went back in time some 20 years...

This is the sad reality. Will Lebanon be able to bounce back from all of this? For the past year, Lebanon got for the first time so much "positive" media coverage during and following the Cedar Revolution. The Israeli State however has chosen to destroy that positive image and replace it with the "given" image that has been carved for decades in so many people's heads--namely the image of destruction, terror, and fear.

To the Lebanese: just tell me how many times we had to explain to foreigners who never visited Lebanon that it's a safe place? Let me guess: hundreds of times!

As foreign nationals evacuate the country, what will be left? Will they return soon? Will those foreigners who were starting to consider Lebanon as a destination to beckon with consider it anymore? I believe it will take years for our country to recover its positive image.

I am reminded of my first post on this blog on February 21, 2005, I wrote the following:
I would like to see in the very near future a document drafted by the Opposition that will answer the many lingering questions: How are we going to resolve the question of the Sheba’a Farms? How will Hizbullah be disarmed and who will do so? What about the Palestinian refugee question?....Big, divisive issues indeed to which we must find honest and real answers. I believe the true challenge is not Syria’s withdrawal, but what will ensue after their withdrawal when we have to all sit together on one table to resolve those major, contentious issues on our own.
We were just starting to answer these questions, when all hell broke loose!

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."


the perpetual refugee said...

Yes, we were starting to have answers to those questions.

Perhaps 'they' did not want the questions answered.

LebExile said...

don't forget Assads departing promise to break Lebanon on the Head of Hariri....
not so much deja vu but rather a promise kept...

apokraphyte said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Peter said...

Stay strong, Doha. Please recognize that demoralization is a deliberate Israeli tactic. Israel will only win if you give in to it.

United Lebanon stands, Divided it Fall.s

Nidjung said...

In hindsight this was bound to happen.
to leave the southern border in the hands of someone who wants the country to the south destroyed. and then do nothing to stop them when they attack said southern neighbour.
There really was no other way for Israel to respond.

If anyone has a solution that would have worked better for Israel I would be glad to hear it, what way would have resulted in a more favorable result for Israel?

Shay said...

To the Lebanese: just tell me how many times we had to explain to foreigners who never visited Lebanon that it's a safe place? Let me guess: hundreds of times!

Ha, I hear you on that one from across the fence.

It really is such a shame that hizbollah had to ruin it for you. Just when things were starting to look bright again.

I hope when this all blows over, we'll be able to bury the dead (on both sides) and our conflict between us.

As counterintuitive as this sounds considering the horrible desrtuction we're wrecking upon your country, the bottom line is that a strong, stable, peacful and economically prosperous Lebanon is a key Israeli interest.

If Lebanon will be able to position itself as an independant, moderate state, more akin to Kuwait and the Emirates than Syria and Iran, you'll see the foreign investments and tourism again. You might even be able to see a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue independantly, maybe even some family reunions, though I gather the issue of Sheba'a Farms will only be resolved in a treaty that involves Syria.

Anyway.. Here's to one day all living together under God's grace.
Be safe.

real1 said...

You deserve it for being a nation of cowards and letting the Hezbollah destroy your country - time to pay the price. If you can't stop Hezbollah Israel will do it.

Ariya said...

How will Hizbullah be disarmed and who will do so?

I guess you got your answer...

Tsedek said...

I'm stunned, I'm shocked. I don't think anybody innocent peaceful living soul on earth has to be the pawn of terrorgroups, directly or indirectly. I also understand that's what has been happening in Lebanon. So: unacceptable. But on the other hand, I think it should have been given some more time to implement their sovereignity. After all, Syria officially left just over a year ago. One more year of high alert on the Israeli northern border against attacks of the hizb -after 6 years in which agreements were continuously broken by them- plus an ultimatum to the Lebanese government, that it is truely not possible to have them operate from Lebanese soil, would - I think - have been better. Violence should have been the last option. Although, I'm also fully aware of the hurt that AGAIN soldiers ("our boys" - as a mother I just can't think of them in any other way) were killed and kidnapped without any provocation from Israeli side.

I hope Nasrallah (the ultimate demon of this situation) will burn in hell.... soon


nimrod said...

I live in northern Israel. A student and a reservist of the IDF.
I do not wish to be re enlisted and bomb your homes (artillery core), none of my friend dose. But can we allow ourselves to give the safety of our cities in your hands? Do you think I value human life in general more than the life of my family?
What would you do with all the Israeli might of arms to protect my five years old sister from the devil- Hassan Naseralla?
A lot of the sentiments I hear around boils down to "nuke'm till they glow than shoot them in the night". Obviously truly emotional and unthinkable (for now), but we are quit tired from holding our fire. Yes 250 killed is an awful number of souls and bodies on our hands, but it is very little compared with the atrocities possible.
We have the physical might. It will serve to protect us, at your expense. If you are honest admit that you will do the same in our place.
I will however, would like to hear how in your opinion Israel will serve liberal Lebanese best interest while protecting our citizen from your rabid dogs.
Assume responsibility and domination over your territory and people, or others will, as always, to your loss.
Lebanese blood (and Israeli no doubt) will be spilled, in the gallons and lakes. What would you like to buy in the price we must pay? Can we assure a stable democratic Lebanon on our border? Or shall we satisfy our need for survival in creating the world biggest parking lot?
May god save your lives and protect the innocent
May god save my Soul.

Tsedek said...

May god save my Soul.~~~

Amen, just put the finger on the pulse.


behind-the-scenes said...

"Peter" sounds like an implicit Hizballah supporter; the kind who'd say "just be united with Hiz! don't let Israel demoralize you into standing up against Hiz!".

"real1" throws nasty words too easily. "a nation of cowards" - an easy thing to say only for someone who didn't actually have to do anything courageous.

but Doha, saying "The Israeli State however has chosen to destroy that positive image" is an instinctive reaction but not a logical or clear one. You know very well that Israel did not think "hey, let's go and destroy that image" and painting it in those terms clouds the true picture and makes a solution harder to find.

The problem is Hizballah and Hizballah can be tackled, like Syria, with sharp, loud words and big demonstrations! It requires courage and clarity! It doesn't require the Lebanese to confront Hiz militarily or to start a civil war.

I hope, for everyone's sake, that this happens. Otherwise, Hiz will always continue its efforts to destroy Israel in the name of its God (after all, it is God's party, is it not?) and Lebanon will see far bigger wars.

elad said...

you asked how can humanitarian aid will reach the people when israel bombs the trucks?
we answer this:
use open trucks, instead of closed ones!
stop using the trucks to bring in weapons! stop hiding the terrorists inside your childrens rooms, stop hiding and helping the hizbollah!
lebanon israel dream of better days, we dream of you lebanon, we dream of peace, we dont want the war, we want to live together as two free and open states,
you must sent the hizbullah back to iran and away from us, both away from israel, and away from lebanon, back to teheran!!!
its about time you lebaneas realize that syria and iran will fight israel to the last lebanease standing! they dont care about your kids and houses, ports and cities, villages or towns,
iran is fighting a war against us oon your backs!!!
syria is fighting a war against us on your backs!!!!!!!!!
wake up lebanon, israel dreams of you, we want peace, we all deserve it

cloudking said...

Well, Israel... one more week to get it done... but it won't happen in that time frame. We need that UN security force that Israel has kept denying for the last decade so. The US dutifully vetoes any resolution (among many others) to that effect.A UN secuity force will quickly and completly solve this trajedy. Let's face it, there has been ill will and ill deeds on both sied of the fence. Isreal; defend your country to the last man, but your conflict and the way you fight your war effects the entire world in a deep way. Economically, morally, etc. If it werent for our (the US) seat on the security council all the years, the ME would be a different ballgame today. I daresay that If Iraq were not invaded, Iran would not have the balls to be doing what they are doing today. The is an Iraq sized vaccuum in the ME that Iran-Seria et all is eagerly waiting to fill. This whole confilct is not over a couple of solders, its just one battle in a greater war for hegemony, land grabs and culural dominance.

Jad J said...

Elad, Dont u know that we already know that ?

and do u think we werent doing anything about it?

do ure homework! if we dont use GUNZ it doesnt mean we're not doing our homework!

we drove syria out peacefully (relatively as it came with the price of martyrs in 14 bombings), and we were doing the same with hizbullah... but the problem is, u'll only know about it when its done!

did u know what was happening IN lebanon during all the preiod between February 14 adn the day Syria pulled out? obviously no, all u heard about was March 14 i;m sure! which is not enough!

Eresthor said...

You know the American science fiction series Babylon 5? It's times like this I remember a citation from it:

The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice. The language is not Narn, or Human, or Centauri, or Gaim or Minbari. It speaks in the language of hope; It speaks in the language of trust; It speaks in the language of strength, and the language of compassion. It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul. But always, it is the same voice. It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, And the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: We are one. No matter the blood; No matter the skin; No matter the world; No matter the star; We are one. No matter the pain; No matter the darkness; No matter the loss; No matter the fear; We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause. we agree to recognise this singular truth, and this singular rule: That we must be kind to one another, because each voice enriches us and ennobles us, and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one.

When you shoot at each other, you shoot at yourself. Isn't that a truth of its own?

Suha said...


If you see pictures of the bombed trucks, you would realize that many of them were open. As for sending Hizballah "back" to Iran, you seem to forget that they too are Lebanese. I would also like to remind you that in a couple of decades, the Shia will be an absolute majority in Lebanon. Most live or come from the south. If you keep bombing the south viciously, you are breeding another generation that has proof of what the IDF can do. You can expect an even more billigerent neighbor in a couple of decades.

Brute force is not the solution! When will you ever learn that? I personally find criticism very welcome, but I appreciate it more when it comes from people who are also self-critical.

JOE said...

Israel is sick, it's mentally ill. I wrote more about it here.

It's sad, so sad that the victims of the holocaust have now resorted to slaughtering civillians.

Suha said...

Here is a suspect truck for you.

eli said...

Friends lets go back to basics for a minute.

HZ dos not represent Lebanon.

When Lebanon hade democratic elections last year HZ joined the pro-syrian "amal" faction, and yet the joint HZ-amal block only got about 30% of the vote.

The great majority of Lebanese are maronits, druz, suni and even shia that refuse to become Iran's puppets. The majority in Lebanon not only rejects the HZ position regarding Israel but reject their entire fundamentalist, anti modern, extremist and jihadist religious outlook. In any normal country what HZ just did would be considered a shocking affront to democracy.

It is not Israel that wants to push Lebanon back 20 years. It is Hezbollah that wants to push Lebanon back 1000 years strait unto the dark ages.

Don’t swallow the stupid jihad talk. Arise, Lebanese, and crush this abominable terrorist group that that is stealing your beautiful country.

Shmulik said...

we know brute force will not destroy terroism in the long-run. However Israel has proved (and i'll site examples if you want) that terrorism can be reduced in the short run with military force.

IsraeliJew said...

most of the things I wanted to say has been said.
I'm an Israeli, I love my life and the last thing I want is to join the war (all the people I know don't want to). all we want is to have a peaceful life, just like you do.
~~~~Jad J~~~~
will you please explain what were you doing to get rid of Hizb? you see I don't know anything about that, I don't believe the media (of either side) ll I know is the bombs were falling on Israel and soldiers were kidnapped.

I understand Lebanon is a beautiful country, and I would love to come and see it someday, if I'll be welcome.

I'm sorry it came to this, I wish you all the best, may peace be upon us soon.

eli said...

Just so we can understand who nasarrala is I am bringing 2 quotes that are typical to his mindset.

In April 2000 he said: "the Jews invented the myth of the Nazi atrocity's".

He also said: "anybody reading the Koran and the holy books of the monotheistic religions can see what the jews did to the prophets and what acts of madness and slaughter the jaws committed throughout history".

Why should any sane Lebanese what to be associated with this Vile and sick anti-Semite.

Suha said...


Let's stick to the Lebanese case. Israel "crushed" the PLO in 1982 in Lebanon. What do you have now? Hizballah started in 1982 with the Israeli invasion. You have evolved from having a secular, non-Lebanese (therefore less popular with many in Lebanon) firing Katyoshas on your northern border to an Islamist, Iran-funded, entrenchedly Lebanese group firing missiles that go in as far as Haifa.

People in Israel are indifferent to Lebanese civilian lives because of the Katioshas raining down on them. They have shelters. They have gas masks. They have sirens. What would you expect from Lebanese who are being bombed from land, air, and sea with half a million refugees, most of them already poor and, to top it all off, have just lost their homes? Sympathy? This will only breed more resentment.

What's worse, look at Eli. Eli is itching to "crush" Hizballah. Keep this up for a while longer and you might very well have a civil war on your hands. Civil wars, as we all know from our text books, weaken central governments (a very nice, fuzzy central government at the moment). The vaccum can be easily filled by Hizballah. The army is mostly Shia. If they have to take sides, I am willing to bet my mother of pearl tavlah from Baalbak they will take Hizballah's, if only because it is their families bearing the brunt of this war. Your attempts to weaken Hizballah will only backfire.

Now, tell me again: how does what the IDF is doing now help the situation?

HARBOOK said...

Anyone heard of this Brigitte Gabriel chick. She's thanking israel on cnn for bombing lebanon. Heaping praise for indiscriminant killing. What a bigoted view of muslims too, not to mention she looks like a wrinkly whore.

zionrules16 said...

People in Israel are indifferent to Lebanese civilian lives because of the Katioshas raining down on them. They have shelters. They have gas masks. They have sirens.

This statement is very insightful. Why would most Israelis have bomb shelters, gas masks, and sirens?

Because Israeli have lived under constant threat of destruction for the last 50+ years from ALL sides. A people should not have to be so good at surviving continual onslaught. Israel has live with the Islamic sword over her neck for ever. Why don't the people of Lebanon all have bomb shelter like Israelis? Lack of preperation or lack of historic threat?

Uri said...

Doha,Suha and Jad:

I am interested to know how you feel about the occupation of palestinians by Israel. I am guessing you don't approve of it (neither do I). But do you feel personally responsible for ending it? what are you willing to sacrifice for it? Do you beleive that Nasralla is acting in the interes of Lebanon in any way at all, or just using it in the best interest of others?

Do you think Hizballa will gain or loose popularity after this needless round of violence?
Do you feel (even deep in your hearts) that Hizbulla is protecting you in a way that your govenment cannot?

I am only looking for answeres that will help me understand how sain, inteligent neighbours of mine feel and think about all this, so all your answeres are legitimate as far as I am concerened. I myself am not sure what side I would take if I were in your place.
Also, in contrast to many of my fellow Israelis, I do not know better than you what you or your government should do...
But please understand us - Israelis always think they know better - better than the americans in Iraq, better than our own leaders and military generals, etc.
In Israel - everybody think of themself as generals...

Looking forward to your answeres (and questions)

Tel Aviv,

Amnon said...

Hi. My name is Amnon. I am an Israeli blogger, 31 years old, live in Tel Aviv and work in a hi-tech company. Although I strongly believe that this war was forced upon us by the Hezbollah and that we had no option other than this conflict, I still think of myself as a moderate left-wing person.

While usually my blog deals with futurism, technology, tourism and philosophy, the current conflict between Israel and Hezbollah which has a dramatic effect on all the people in the Middle East, convinced me to try and communicate with other people from all over the world, to hear other views and get different perspectives. I believe that this is the true power of the information age – not just to be fed by the mass media, but the have the ability to say what is on your mind. I want to invite people from all over the world and especially from Arab and Muslim countries to write their thoughts and ideas about the current situation and the general situation in the Middle East.

I have traveled the world and had been to more than 30 countries in five continents and met many people from different races and cultures. I believe that although there are a lot of cultural differences between people, we all share the same wants and needs - we all want to be loved, to be appreciated, to be treated with respect and to raise our kids peacefully and quietly.

My address is:

your comments are appreciated.

May we live to see a peacful middle east!

theog said...

Suha, I think you dont know the Israeli public very well, Israelis think of lebanese civilians as Israeli civilians, but some of the so called civilians are used as hizbollah's human shelter, hence, will get hurt.
Regarding the backfire, I think its a matter of opinion, I think hizbollah will eventually loose, the IDF is far more stronger and resiliant than Hizbollah, the IDF can widthstand a longer fight and far more harshe then what we have now.
In the country, 95% of the Israeli public support the Israeli government and the IDF.
I wish the hizbollah will go away and leave lebanon, and maybe some time we will go back to what my grandfather told me about lebanon, that Israelies went to vacations in lebanon and lebanese came to Israel, may we all see the day where peace is the driving force of all people.

Suha said...


You are posing a question right? I am glad you are interested in my country. Well, the military budget and civil defence budget in Lebanon are not high. Plus, military ideology is not strong. Many services are not provided by the central government, but by decentralized localities and on people's initatives. For example, you see many shop owners putting out garbage baskets in front of their shops because the city has not supplied any or because it is not repairing them (this was changing over the last few years).

The reason for this is that we have what is called a "clientalist" system. Meaning that confessionalist elites control state resources and they hand them down only to people of their own confession who can promise them votes during the elections. These people in turn distribute them over their own constituency. So, the result is uneven development and lack of central organization.

Thank you for your question and your interest.

For the love of Lebanon said...

check this link

no comment!!

elad said...

a very nice picture, sorry but i dont buy it, you might buy it but i know better, as an airforce man(ret), i know that if a truck was hit, it was hit for a very good reason, it may look open now, but im sure when it was bombed it was coverd with something, every israeli missile shot at trucks prevented a big hit at haifa or naharya, or every other part of israel, your lebanease army should have been the one to stop them, not us!!!

and to jad,
it is just not enough, we dont have time, we dont have the will, to wait for you anymore, we got in and we will fight to the end untill there will be no more shooting, untill you are free, and we are free of you, and most of all free of hizbullah, that even though i am a part of the peace camp, i say to hizbullah:
israel is united, there is no voice against it, hizbullah will be crushed, nassrallah is a dead man walking, it might take time, but he will never be free, he will never have a real life,
nasrallah is a small egomaniac on personal crusade to aveng his sons death, and you all pay the price, and we also pay it, naturaly there are other reasons, like the iranian regime's wish to destroy us,(and to divert the worlds attention from their nuclear program, let me tell you, iran will not have an nuclear weapon, never) but i believe that from the death of his son he gets his fanatiscm,
dont be fooled, israel knows that the term "shahid" is all a big bullshit, if it is so good to die let them die themselves, instead of sending stupid, hatefilled, human tragedies to explode in israel and kill sildiers and civilians

lebanon pays the price of this stupid crusade, islamic crusade, israel isnt going anywhere, we are here for good, and so are you, this is why you must send them the hell away from your country, and when i said to sent them back to teheran i didnt mean the shiaa, i ment the fanatic hizbullah point of view, we have nothing agaist anyone else, we wanted peace since the begining. but we were turned down, a famous israeli leader once said: israel had only one war, wich started at 1948 and is lasting still, and we will countinue to fight untill there are no fanatics, untill we have no more enemies, our enemies have a choise: come to terms with israel's existence (egypt, jordan and more...) or fight us and loose, fight us, and die, fight us untill you accept us, or defeat us, or kill us, but know this, israel's might is in its morality, in the jewish soul,

hizbullah has made its choise,

and now its yours, lebanon

theog said...

I think that Israel is not to balme in the lebanese economy and politics, just remember suha, this whole situation started by... you know who, we had relative quiet in the past years, Israel left southern lebanon and the territories and agreed to stay out, but, you cannot expect a bunch of terrorists and criminal gangs to control your country, let them know they do not have support amongst the lebanese people, let them know you dont stand behind the acts they perform, let them know you want peace! not war! let them know...

Suha said...

But please understand us - Israelis always think they know better - better than the americans in Iraq, better than our own leaders and military generals, etc.

Our two countries share a lot in common then ;)
I cannot answer the question on Palestinians. My view on that is tinged since I am half Palestinian.

I do not think Hizballah will lose popularity after this. The ones who supported then will support them even more (to them, they have received yet another proof of Israel's brutality). The ones who do not support them will support them even less. It will polarize the country and I think that is what the IDF is after. I do not think they appreciate the danger in that, though.

It is not B&W whether Hizballah is protecting the Lebanese or not. There are people (in the north) that never felt HA protected them. There are people (in the south) who feel that HA is doing what it has always done: protect them. Personally, I think violence breeds more violence and that for me settles the matter: HA is not protecting me. I only wish more Israelis feel that way about it.

zionrules16 said...


If I understand your response correctly, in your opinion it comes down to a lack of preparation cause by this clientalist system. I disagree, I feel it was due to lack of threat.
But thank you for answering my question.

Amnon said...

You can use this link to access my website:
My address is:

Shmulik said...

Let me give you an example: until 2003 Israel didn't occupy the palestinian cities and the terror inside israeli cities was horrible. Doezns were killed each week. Than after one terror act to many the IDF got back inside the palestinian territories (operation "defensive shield"). Soldiers are kiled there now, Palestinians suffer more and I am sure the palestinians don't like us more BUT terroism inside Israel is rather rare now. Now look at Gaza Israel has pulled out completly including dismantling settelments (very painful to many of us) and Qassam rockets on our cities near the border there began in earnest. Many Israelis believe that "they hate us and attack us anyway, at least we will attack to destroy the terroists and most of the death and destruction will be in their cities not ours". We believe there will be no agreement with Hizbollah because they are opposed to Israel on a religeous basis. You believe that Hizbollah is misguided but in the end after some talk they will comply with lebanese best intrests. We believe that nasarallah fights for his mockery of islam and not for Lebanon. We believe that when some one hates us so much that he is willing to die in order to hurt us, no amount of public presure can change that.

Suha said...


I am not blaming Israel. I am trying to give another side to the arguments here. If you were Lebanese supporting Hizballah I would bring up many similar points.

Suha, I think you dont know the Israeli public very well, Israelis think of lebanese civilians as Israeli civilians

That is not what various Israelis have been telling me over the past few days. This is not the impression I get either when Israelis support a war that is killing more Lebanese civilians in one day than HA have in a lifetime. As for HA hiding among civilians, is that like Palestinians hiding beind pregnant women? Sorry, I do not buy war propaganda. I have to hear it on my side of the border, closer to where it is happening, to believe it.

Regarding the backfire, I think its a matter of opinion... the IDF can widthstand a longer fight and far more harshe then what we have now.

It is an opinion, as is everything else expressed in this forum. It is an informed, opinion, however, as I do Lebanese history for a living. As for the IDF, I have no doubts about their reselience or military power (we are all witnessing it) but this is guerilla warfare. The Americans could not win it in Vietnam. The IDF could not settle it in the territories. They will not be able to settle it here. And if you need an informed opinion on that one, you should listen to what your generals have started to say the last couple of days. They have scaled down their ambitions from "destroying" and "disarming" Hizballah to "weakening" them and pushing them back from the border.

Suha said...


That is why I asked you to narrow the discussion down to Lebanon. The situation in the West Bank and Gaza is different. They are under Israeli occupation. Even after withdrawal, Gaza was still completely under Israeli control. They even controlled the waters (And don't forget that Hamas had been holding a unilateral truce for 1.5 years until last month). Unless an occupation of Lebanon is what the IDF has in mind, I see no ground for comparison and I would rather we stick to the situation in Lebanon.

Shmulik said...

I thought you have agreed Hizballah uses human shields?
here is what Jad j wrote on thi forum:
"TO EVERYBODY, I just received TWO very very very disturbing news, and it contradicts what i've been trying to say for the last couple of days:

1- There is a christian village in the south (Ayn Ibil) surrounded by shii'a villages. it is receiving all refugees from that area becoz it is not considered as a Hizbullah area, therefore, Shii'a from around the countryside are pouring there. But it got shelled 2 days ago, and is being since, and i've been warning some people here that there will be another "Kana massacre" in Ayn Ibil becoz the IAF will be lured there to make the same mistake. Now a few minutes ago, a priest from Ayn Ibil who came to beirut to take medical supplies to the refugees up there since the civil services cannot reach it, he said that Hizbullah are entering the village with Pickups mouted with rocket launchers, shooting towards israel, then leaving. I might tend to disbelieve him although he is a priest and he has no reason at all to lie about such a thing but, the second news is:
2- I received news that Hizbullah militants are leaving the Dahyeh and trying to enter West Beirut, a mainly Sunnii area, and provoke the IAF from there, But unfortunately, icannot confirm that news with hard evidence at the moment, i request from West Beirutees to keep their eyes open.

The reason for this kind of behavior is the fact that non-shii'a areas are still Relatively safe, and are mainly against supporting hizbullah, therefore, if those areas were attacked, it would strenghen Nasrallah's position for obvious reasons.

I hope this is not true or else the events will unfold some catastrophic consequences."
He is from your side of the border, don't you believe him?
What would you consider hard evidence?

1earth said...

Keep burying your head in the sand Suha. Look at all the recent photos of HB in the media. They aren't even pretending to wear paramilitary uniforms anymore. They dress like regular civilians. Now the Palestinian groups are using Christian villages to launch rockets at Israel. They are forcing civilians to be their human shields. That's the result of letting militias keep their weapons and dictate foreign policy.

theog said...

I do not know where you get the information about the generals changing their opinion, but I can assure you that Israeli's policy stated by our prime minister and generals and mister of homeland security is standing strong in their opinions:
There will be NO talks until the soldiers are returned, Hizbollah is no longer threatening Israel, and Lebanese army and an International army deploys in southern Lebanon.

Regarding Israelies, as everywhere, we also have some right winged people, but still given the oppurtunity, they will take peace anytime, true peace, with inter-counrty relations, I am sure everyone will gain from such a situation except Hizbollah and other fanatic groups, but still, be it Hizbollah Fatach, or any other organization, you have to understand, the attacks came from the Lebanese side, and Israel has no other choice but to strike in Lebanses territories because the Lebanses Government cant and wont do it.

It is unfortunate but still someone has to stop the Terrorists, what else can be done except what is currently being done? how can we return our soldier? and get peace and quiet in our nothern border? talk? we tried that several times, and here we are again? Hizbollah simply proved that talking with them is useless, and only total war is an option.

Suha said...


I said: "I have to hear it on my side of the border, closer to where it is happening, to believe it". My family is from Marji'youn and my mother lives in West Beirut and they have heard nothing of this s**t, to quote Bush. Jad, who lives far from both these places, himself has expressed that he is not certain about the sources.

Need I remind you that I did not believe an F-16 dropped from the sky either?

At any rate, if it is true, it will go beyond the level of rumors soon.

Suha said...


First, not all of Hizballah are militants. They are a party with a military wing. You don't suppose news broadcasters on al-Manar wear military uniforms, do you?

Second, see my response to Shmulik.

Shmulik said...

I have given you the example from palestine not because it's identical to Lebanon but to illustrate the israeli point of view that firepower can have limited but important results.
i think we still disagree about what Hizballah is all about. It seems you think the Hizballah is about Lebanon but we think it's about islamic jihad against Israel (example: in the 80s Bin-Laden was a freedom-fighter in Afganisthan but later he has shown his true face in 9/11).
Another little point about the Hamas 1.5 years of "truce" with Israel. Even as the Hamas slowed it's attacks the "islamic jihad", the "martyrs of al-aqsa" and some others pickd up the slack. If I will detach a brigade from the IDF call it the "Israeli defense militia" (IDM) and send them to kill palestinians while the IDF maintains "truce" what would you say??

keren said...

we are all humens flash and blood no matter wich side we are on. we love, cry, laugh, worried ... pepole suffering from both sides and for what ? all we want is to live our life in peace with are neighbors so both sides can prosper as nations. for that we must understand it is necessary to fight black foreces that threatens our goal for peace and serenity in the world, especially in the middle east that sufferd enough, it is time to be united!! fight evel, the pepole must rise for peace. it is time for the pepole to rebel against all of those who shed blood as if it counts for water - the terror organizetions. they weaken us as cancer does to ahumen body.
we israelis have to protect our selfs as a small nation, be up rise for every threate, but we were never to choose war in the first place.
we are all brothers.
my best to all of the grieving.

Suha said...


In the begining the goal was expressed as disarming Hizballah. Now, the position has changed to pushing Hizballah back from the border and the return of the 2 soldiers. I am not the only one who has noticed the softening. It has been remarked on here and here as well as several other places.

Suha said...


We do agree on what Hizballah are. But we do not agree on what the IDF is and we do not agree on how to go forth about the whole situation. Anyway, it was a good discussion. I am afraid I have to go now. We'll pick up on more points later.

Shmulik said...

please be safe, I hope to hear from you soon.

theog said...

I still cannot find the so called opion changing, what more, I assure you again, from what we see on Israeli TV which I follow closely, The terms for talking (notice only talking) to ANYONE are:
1. return on the Israeli soldiers
2. disarming Hizbollah
3. an International force along with the Lebanese army deploying in southern Lebanon.

You can ask Every Israeli here on the Blog. Israel will not back down I assure you that, even if only for political reasons, the government will not change its opinion because it will be the destruction of it and an open invitation to other Terrorists to perform their acts and Hizbollah.

So I am sorry to break down that thesis or idead but the Israeli Goals are and will be the same as long as the Israeli public supports the military and government, and that seems to still be about 95% of the public and there is no sign of anyone in Israel for backing down.

I do hope however that the Israeli just ( I am sure you agree with that ) demands are met by the Lebanese government so to end this conflict.

CatoRenasci said...

Just a thought: If anyone thinks the Israelis are not being restrained consider what their not being restrained would mean: a Carthagenian peace.

Omer (israeli) said...

Rockets just landed on Nazarat. Three dead, among them 2 children.
The village is an arab village.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

There are more and more reprts coming in from Lebanon the nazrallah and his thugs have found safe haven in the El Maten area which is dominantely christian. Moreover, scenes from the meering of the Lebanese cabinet show that many chrisitan leaders are willing to sacrifice lebanon for short range political gains and to appear saving the face of lebanese solidarity. When will the lebanese of the afluent areas who had made possible the revolution of March 14 - when will they continue their revolution and curb Nazralah. Is there no hope for a unified democratic Lebanon? Where is the Lebanese Army? Is the face of Lebanon to be saved by Iran and Syrian Quislings? The fact that voices counter Hizb are beinopeg silenced even in demonstrations outside Lebanon makes you wonder if there ever will be reason in this region.
I hope i will be found mistaken in the near future.

Omer (israeli) said...

Think of south beirut. It was a home of thousands people, also called a "HA stronghold". 57 civilians died in that raid.
Pamphlates were thrown over the city warning to keep out of the area. I would guess that if no warning were to given the death toll would be in the thousands area.
I know that even 57 is alot, but thats always the sad thing about war.

BaHaar said...

I wonder how all isrealies living in denyal and dismiss the fact that thire counrty in so many cases ignored UN resulations and peace efforts from his niegbors! how thy foucos on word " Peace" and not willing to sit on table and give peace to every one and to themselves as well!
if Isreal accepted to relase Lebanies persions none of this happen at first place

Omer (israeli) said...

The 3 lebanese prisoners were all caught insides Israel border while trying to hurt civilians.
And i can say: If HA wouldn't have attacked then all this would not have happened.

To other news,
Israeli parliment member A-Sana, representing the Arab minority (arab-israelis), following the Katyusha attack on Nazarat, said that Arab villages dont have bomb shelters, and calls to build them.
Of course no one thought that the HA would target muslims, but bomb shelters must be built!

second, heavy fightinig with ground troop in south lebanon:
IDF claims so far 2 dead and 7 wounded in a secret opperation that got discovered by HA gerilla fighters.
HA claims he destroyed 3 tanks, no conformation yet from IDF. of course both stories might be true at the end. We will have to wait and see.

Omer (israeli) said...

The "peace" process is a very coplicated issues. Ill put in short, alot of Isrealis are affraid of a hostile country sitting near by (Hamas which share its ideology from HA and Iran). I guess that if the Pl's govement was more "modrate" then things would be easier.
But generaly i agree with you, i think Israel did too little too late with regarding the "Peace process" (which of course today is a bad joke). I like you feel that Israels policy were immoral. And im the one getting bombed by jidhaist in buses and pubs. As you know already, its very very VERY hard to trust the other side, while he is bombing you.

box said...

yes, omer. israel's actions are immoral.

Lirun said...


you have inspired me.. i have started a blog

i disagree with your post.. we will emerge stronger neighbours.. even if its only because this war has descended to our grass roots level and has caused people like us to reach out to eachother..

we will bridge the divide and together heal the distrust..

the cedar revolution does not have to end.. the whole world saluted your revolution and you changed us.. you changed our minds and educated us about you..

i'm disturbed about the state of affairs but i also dont understand why the international forces and UN didnt offer to step in before the bombing to disband hizbulla and enforce the resolution in order to protect israel and avert the crisis.. why is it that only now they suggest intervention..

i dont have faith in any of the institutions.. i dont think the UN or our governments have the power to really create peace.. but i do have faith in us.. and believe that we do..

box said...

does anyone feel a message board for lebanese and lebanese-supporters only would be a good thing? do you wish to talk about this situation honestly without a berage of propaganda? if so please visit

box said...

lirun - if israel is not listening to kofi annan today, do you think they would have yesterday? at any rate, i don't think israel bothered to discuss their plans with the UN. it is just as evident that israel had this action planned far in advance.

Mirvat said...

1earth said...

Box, is that why you want to run and hide on your own board, because you can't handle reality?

That's what armies in sovereign nations do, they have plans for every possible situation. But they can't go ahead with their plans until the politicians give authorization to the military. Of course you being Lebanese you have no clue about controlling your armed forces...

Israel is not going to listen to the UN when the UN has had an anti-Israel bias for decades.

Mirvat said...

seeker said...

Depends Box
What do aspire to achieve a group
1) Promote despair by talking only about the bad things and the bad neighbors and the bad luck striking you without you being at fault.
2) A group to support the inflicted of this wretched state of affair
3) Promote hate groups against Israel (Well to promote hate groups against Hiz I gather you need the Israelis)
Than the answer is yes

But if you want to weave a dream of better existence you need Israelis, there is friction I know lots of it but friction is the pain that brings new life to this world (Ask every mother; they are wise) you rather friction will come from an F16 or in a Blog; let the heat create new life.

What do say? I think there is a basic problem though with the bloggers it seems to me did not realize that there is a culture gap and every answer needs to be weight against that culture gap (More will follow about this, I think it is important to understand each other)

You are smart Box; smart and interesting, and as opposed to Jad you are less prone to accept anything; this makes you a very interesting figure to converse with. No offence Jad but peace you do with everbody and not just those who accept it immediately.

Sir Sefirot said...

Well, look at it from the positive side:

When this war finishes and you get to get things done in Lebanon, you'll have one less thing to worry about, since Israel will already have taken care of your hizbullah. What are friends for? :D

Now seriously, Israel is helping you big way, except for all the comunication disruptions and stuff. You'll have to spend your money, but they are spending their blood and weapons to do the work. I think you should be a little more appreciative of this, although is sad that so many civilian casualties are taking place. After all, wars are like this.

Take care.

For the love of Lebanon said...

Where Are Bush's Critics Now?

by Patrick J. Buchanan
When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.
First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq, and Iran.
Now Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon – smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads, and the occasional refugee convoy – has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.
The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its air strikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.
What Israel is up to was described by its Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."
Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.
Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.
Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.
The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza, and demanded a prisoner exchange.
Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.
Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counterattack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired, and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.
But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
When al-Qaeda captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?
Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?
Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.
That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.
Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?
Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?
How much must America pay for the education of this man?

Suha said...


There are more and more reprts coming in from Lebanon the nazrallah and his thugs have found safe haven in the El Maten area which is dominantely christian.

Sources, please. There are always wars of words that go parallel to the destruction. Be it on my side or yours, I want sources.

Suha said...

Sir Sefirot,

Judging by what I am seeing on the net, I would say the possibility for friendship is more unlikely now than what it was only one week ago. See for yourself.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
seeker said...

Scenario A: How much will any of you pay for, lets say a computer? Well, you ask and well in your right, what kind of computer?, describe it to me and you are not even sure you really need it at the moment.
Scenario B: Let’s assume that the person offering you this computer cheated you before several times and is well known to be a con man in your neighborhood.

Now lets assume that this persons collaborates (kids or whatever) try to convince you that this is the best offer you can ever get in your life and probably the next to come.

I think that by now you get what I am at, Israelis, we may have the best reasons in the world for this war, it can well be the only feasible solution, by forcing it on Lebanon we are raping it, taking away their decision power and rendering them helpless, now I am not talking to all the hot blooded (“For all I care Lebanon can go down the drain”) I am talking to the smart ones and I have seen here quite a lot, reasoning very intelligently about motives and lack of choices. However; the fact remained not many of us (especially us Israelis, would like to have the choice taken from her/im). This is perceived is condescending and propaganda and quite frankly it reminded me of some horror movies where the bad guy torturing the hero while explaining that its done for his own good (Have any of you see Misery?) I just suggest empathy, we suffer casualties they suffer tragedy when there are no choices hope dies.

D.B. Shobrawy said...

I have to admit, I hate anyone who defends the actions of their people so calously without regard for human lives. Whether its Arabs who support any terrorist organization who murders defensless civilians or whether its Jews who support Israel who murders defensless civilians. I think the two are equal to eachother, whatever happend to the middle.

Sir Sefirot said...

suha, I can't open the website. Is the link correct?

d.b. shobrawy and seeker, as you'll see, I'm tired of seeing people defend the bad ideals and bad actions because of "regard for human lives" (see fascism, communism, pacifism). Historically, this "regard for human lives" has killed many more people than the "hot blooded" line of thinking (see WWII, Gulf War I, etc.). And, sadly, it will continue to do so. It's sad that people die, but if it's necessary, so be it.

And to those that think I'm being partial (I am), I don't want to offend anyone, but Israel and jews in general have contributed to humanity MUCH more than Lebanon and arabs in general, so, from my point of view, an Israeli life is much more valuable than a lebanese one. I'm just basing myself on data, so, if you don't agree with what I said right now, provide me with some proof of the contrary in the future, and I may change my point of view.

seeker said...

So as I mentioned above we are forcing the Lebanese to buy our goods, and we are appalled, the price is much higher than most of us are willing to price it and that is what you see a stream of Israelis trying to convince themselves and others that this is the only feasible way, the only, any compromise on that belief will result in a conflict of values, And now I will talk for myself, If I will not convince myself that this is not the only option I will get mad, I don’t even know how a relatively moderate PM has taken this responsibility and be able to look people in the eyes. so I convince myself there is something big at stake that I am not aware of that is the ONLY solution. Some of you Lebanese are distinguishing between the IDF and citizens, we do not make such distinguishing, we are the citizen that voted for the government, we are the IDF most of us served their most of us will take responsibility for our country’s actions and believing that what we do now is futile or without the right justification is stamping us to a place I really don’t want to go.

Ser Sefirot: Let’s agree to disagree on the value of life. As I didn’t create life I will not venture to guess how to evaluate it

D.B. Shobrawy said...

Sir Sefirot.

Case in point apparently. Lets look the other way.

Doha said...

"but Israel and jews in general have contributed to humanity MUCH more than Lebanon and arabs in general, so, from my point of view, an Israeli life is much more valuable than a lebanese one."

sir siferot, What???? The Lebanese diaspora is one of the largest diasporas. We are spread in Latin America, Africa, Europe and Australia. We have scientists, doctors, politicians, professors, etc. who live abroad and most have are of a dual citizenship. It's just terrible to dialogue with someone who says such ridiculous things. By the way, from Lebanon came scholars, teachers, writers, etc. The American University of Beirut and the Universite de Saint Joseph are one of the best higher educational institutions in the Middle East. Our education system is the one of the best in the Middle East.

You have no right to say that you have contributed to humanity much more than I did. My life is equal to yours and if you disagree then please do not come back to this blog!

eli said...


The site you refer to is indeed sad and depressing.

However I was surprised to notice that the site dos not even mention the powers that share at least partial responsibility to this tragedy, namely Iran and Syria. I didn’t see a bad word about Hezbollah either.

This is not finger pointing but a misunderstanding of the basis for any form of responsible leadership – the connection between action and consequence.

How can the Hezbollah be allowed to act in such an irresponsible way and get away with it?

dror said...

Some points:

Box – unlike many, I think the idea for only Lebanese post space is quite good – if your wish is only practical giving aid to Lebanon on all kinds of level. For other purpase - like trying to communicate with people that disagree with you and trying to proswade them – bad idea.

Shua – that the HZ is a militia that "kidnapped" Lebanon is a tragedy. Israel COULD act differently, but state is not a saint, and the Israelis are only humans not saints. You have your internal right wings and so do Israel, Israel right wing and the military are preparing for an assault on HZ for years – for this reason ', box , its not a great surprise. But on the other hand what would you do if you had a militia on your border trying to heat up the area?

To speak on massacre and so on its quite bullshit. If Israel had wanted to kill civilians – she could have use much more leaflet weapons like MLRS for example. One such unit can kill as much as 100-500 people. Air-fuel bomb can do much more damage, by now the death toll in Lebanon could have been around 10,000 people. So the situation is very bad, but it could got a lot whereas if Israel wanted to massacre civilians.

UN – can't help mush – I'm sorry (for all of us) – UN can successes when both sides want peace, but don't trust each other to keep it – so the go to UN to enforce it. In this case' Israel for the while don't want peace. I suspect HZ don’t want peace no matter what Israel will do. So UN or EU won't help much.

Many Israelis (and especially right wing and Military) is saing this as a "test" for the "Arabs", "if we give up to HZ, the terror for Palestine Islam groups will never stop" – so "we will be the mad person and no one will bother us".

If Israel wanted war for some reason, why it not attacking Jordan? Jordan is also a weak country, full of Arabs. But there is only one army.

IDF – like any other army in the world there is no big difference between them and terror groups. The difference they are lea gel. The problem is that right no Lebanon has 2 armies, and that is a problem. If HZ is the army of Lebanon, you can't blame Israel to fight back. If it's not – then you are in a mess (and so do we)

The number shua is giving are misleading – Israel interest is to keep the number of civilian casualties low (so it can "crush" HZ), but it use a lethal weapon like 250 kG bombs. Its quite hard to fight HZ with F16 and be more "surgical", and other means more casualties for the IDF. HZ is trying to kill as much as israels as possible. The fact that HZ is usign un efficint wepons is "his" problem not some falt of the IDF.

Itai Frenkel said...


The problem with being a bully is that there is always a bigger bully (I suppose every reader will interpret it the way he feels comfortable with)

Lebanon without the protection of the international community does not stand a chance of rebuilding itself (since there is always someone that will take advantage of it's weakness). So the basic question is, what made the international situation this time different ?

Obviously the time was right for both Iran, Syria and Israel.

Iran since 9/11 is in constant negotiation with the US (on help in Afgahnistan, on Nuclear weapons, on restraining Shias in Iraq, on oil prices and god knows what). Since the invasion to Iraq, Iran is gaining more and more reigonal power.

Syria has many problems. All of its neighbouring countries are under American influence now (Turkey, Iraq, Israel , Lebanon, Jordan) and the tension with the international investigation of Hariri does not makes it any better. Inciting a fire that only them (or Iran) can put off is a good bargaining chip.

Israel wants to unilatirally retriet from the west bank (I am taking it as a given although this could also be explained). Israel closely monitored HZ arm (race) and could not wait another few years until it was even stronger. If HZ gets stronger after Israel retreated from Lebanon, Olmert will never be able to do the same thing in the West Bank.

Egypt and Saudia do not want to see Iran getting more influence in their reigion, and therefore they see the money flowing from Iran to Hizbollah as a strategic problem.

Europe has not forgotten Al-Kaida attacks in Spain and London and the humiliating Arab minority uprising in Paris. It has nothing to do with lebanon except the fact they are all arabs. However, you cannot expect the Europeans to be able to make the distinction. Lebanon is not under Israel occupation so the automatic "Stop the colonialization" response cannot be used either.

And lebanon is poor. It dependent of richer countries (Saudies or Iran or even Syria). It cannot afford a big army, and it does not have access to US weapons (like Egypt has).

As I see it, the only way out of this mess, is for the Lebanon prime minister (Fouad Siniora , right?) to take a stand. There must be a Lebanonies interest somewhere but no one ever heard it. Supporting Syria , Iran or Israel is not an option. Once Lebanon has a clear voice the international community will stand behind it and Israel will have no choice but to play along. His recent call for a cease fire plays into the hands of everyone except Lebanon.

In the next few days, the Hizbollah will not risk a civil war since it is fighting with Israel and cannot afford to have one arm tied behind its back. Now that most of the foriegns are gone from Lebanon HZ cannot kidnap more people. The airstrikes are weakening its military force, and Israel has done almost everything to clear the way for a ground invasion (although no one knows if it will actually do it and when). The shiates find refugee in Christian and Sunni neighbourhoods which on one hand increases tension but on the other it makes them even more vulenarble to civil war.

A common enemy (Israel) is Fouad Siniora's chance to skillfully manipulate public opinion into a lebanon unity which will serve only Lebanon's interest without risking a civil war.

Knowing the Lebanonies figures better, would you think such a move is possible ?

Itai Frenkel

Boris the Bullet Dodger said...

Dear Lebanese people,

Ask us to help you to get rid of Hizballah. We will help you. You do not have to forgive us. You do not have to love us. You do not have to buy our crap. You do not have to even recognize us. You do not have to do anything but to fight a common enemy.

An Israeli

Sir Sefirot said...

dror - Mostly agree, and, as I mentioned somewhere else before, daisy-cutter style bombs (termobaric bombs) can do as much damage as an atomic bomb, and if Israel used them we would be counting the civilians by the hundreds of thousands. So there's a factor 1 to 1000 here in casualties to killing capability. No point in talking about "massacres", "IDF targeting civilians", etc...

And doha, I haven't said Lebanese haven't done anything good - I guess they have done much more things than lots of other countries (most african ones, and others like North Corea and such), I was just doing a comparison. I myself I'm not Israeli, but Catalan (Spanish). We Catalans have had quite a diaspora as well, we have a territory (not a country, sadly) 2 or 3 times the size of Lebanon, and we have universities and scientists and intellectuals and writers and everything else around the globe. We are responsible for some of the most modern advances in medicine, astronomy, mathematics and computers. During the middle ages, Catalonia was one of the biggest kingdoms in the mediterranean, and one of the few where commerce, science and literature flourished during that period.

But I'd still prefer an Israeli to a Catalan. There's orders of magnitude of difference.

That's my point of view, and I won't change it without evidence. If you want to ban me, you're in your right, but it will say most about your view of the freedom of speech. Plus, you'll lose a regular reader.

yuri said...

Hi, Doha

I agree that your life is equal to mine, but both our people are more traders than fighters(since Phoenicians, I guess) and in our marketplace for one israeli soldier they want as many as one thousand arab prisoners. So in market terms there is a clear difference, isn't there ?

Shmulik said...

Sir sefirot
I really enjoy that you like us so much but there is a name to the things you say: racism.
despite the fact many believe zionism=racism, I am a proud zionist and still consider the kind of racism you stand for abhorent. If you think there are no murderers, thives or rapists in Israel please think again.

amir said...

I want to share with you a view that may be refreshing...

In my view, we are closer today to peace than ever before.
It does not mean we are very close, but definately the entire region is in the right direction and therefore I am optimistic than ever.

Allow me to explain why:

1) Israel made 2 withdrawals to international UN approved borders and have made it planning to withdraw from the 3rd side as well. (The 4th side is sea so things are easier there). So it has never before been so easy for teh arabs to accept the israel entity.

2) The palastinians have never before had such a great chance to prove to the world that they are capable and deserve a country. The whole world is behind them, proving money and advice and hoping that palestine in gaza will be a succesful experiment. So that we can move to teh 2nd phase of their independence. What is happening now with Hammas in Gaza and all that chaos is perfectly underderstaneble for a nation that fought for independencefor for such a long time. It will take them maybe 5 years maybe a decade and they will settle down and be moderate life-loving people.

3) I am a strong beleiver that the palestinians, have the best chance to become the first real arab democracy from all arab countries. Palestinians are very good people, and above all they have been living within a democracy for decades. They know the advanatges and disadvantages, they know the power of free press, free speech and elections, and even for those who do not like Hammas, one cannot say they were not elected democratically. So there is a great future ahead of us.

and there are more and more reasons. such as there has never been a situation that Lebanon was in such a good condition to becoming a successful, peaceloving country.
a) Syria is not there any more. At least not physically
b) Hizballa is finally weak after the Israeli attack. actually the Lebanon government should be the first one to be happy the HZ will be weaker.
c) All the world will help lebanon to regain its responsibility over the territory. and Lebanon is destroyed so many many international companies will fight over the large budgets of building back Lebanon.

So again, this is a painful but absolutely an essential step to make the middle east closer to peace.



wintermotek said...

this is step for peace like the war in irak is a step for democracy.
i am an israeli too, but unlike you i don't see any good in this situation
the minute you go out of israeli media, you understand how huge the mistake was to bombed lebanon
to the whole midlle east (hopefuly not the whole world)
i've been a silent reader here in the last couple of days, i think this meeting is important, thanks.
(some personal thoughts about all this)

avi said...

im avi from israel 31 years old from the golan-hights

so...for your pictures that you paint and for the pepole that see it and think that you'r pity...

as you know israel is a country!
lebanon is a country!

in every place in this world ,if 1 country bomb other country or try to cross with wepones or try to harm in other way the other country is natural that the other country will protect her self in some way !
allso if the hizballa are not lebenis and they are from many country (like :lebanon ,palestin ,siria ,saudia ,jurden ,ext.)
they are shooting from your country and your pepole and your goverment know abaut it!!!!so dont try to say somthing als ,you not so pity!!!its not new thing abaut hizbala!!!they are in your country many many years and they are group of gerila fighters that known in the world terorist list!!!
befor you start to blam the world of your houses and the bombing of israel ,try to solve the bigest problem of lebanon and try to be strong country with strong lider that gona say no!!!!!!to iran and his fucking hizbala assholes!
simple as that
i'v been in lebanon and i can tell you that i was travel 9 years in the world and i'v seen many many countrys...lebanon are 1 of the most biutifull country that i'v seen in my life!!!yes yes!!!
so try to keep the silense and get your country to high place of the most turisty place that can offer worldwide my friend

that all

Mirvat said...

bush---WMD, Iraq must be attacked
then, oops, no WMD but Iraq should still be attacked, we're fighting ther fight for them. we are establishing democracy.

Olmert (well, bush)
---we want the 2 prisoners back, we will attack lebanon..
later, alright it's not about the prisoners but we still wanted to attack anyway..
we fight the fight for them
this is for their own good
we're bringing democracy
war on terror..

well look at iraq now

also if you wanted to get rid of a part of lebanon that hates you now everybody hates you.
good job!

Mirvat said...

looks how much better iraq is now

Mirvat said...

and look at this

i saw today that the rabbis of west banks are telling the government that according to the Torah, it is fine to kill children and civilians in time of this true?

Shmulik said...

Mirvat you are unbelieveably one sided.
You oppose the war in Iraq vocally because of american war crimes?
Did you demonstrate when sadam used mustard gas on kurds??
Did you demonstrate when papa Assad killed 20,000 in Hama?
we do want to get our prisoners back and we do want a peaceful border where the hizballah can't attack us (happened many times in the last 6 years) and the lebanese goverment deny responsebilty. Argue our methods if you want but not our motives.

Shmulik said...

About the rabbis. I don't know if a crazy rabi has said one thing or another but I can say that rabbis don't make policy in Israel (unlike Iran or hizballah-land where ayatollahs call the shots.

PEACE said...


Hey mister smart guy-
Just for the record, I'm 27 years old, support peace, and it makes me very sad to be a part of this no choice war.
What will you do in our situation, when we are surrounded with fanatical Islamic all around who try to destroy us day after day?
We got out of Lebanon and Gaza, we offered peace solutions for several times, but it's never enough!!!
They want us out of here, but that very small country is all we have.
Maybe you would like us to let them slap us on the other chick, will that make us healthy, and will that satisfy you?

PAPAL said...

look, i undertand you' i really do!

im to' in a shelter in israel, affraid from the hizbulla bombing!
what you have to realize is that we dont want this war. we left lebanon- becouse wanted to put a stop to all of this, we made a big mistake. 24 years big mistake and we corrected it! we have widthrawn from south lebanon in order to hae normal life to us and to you= the pepole of lebanon.
but, your leaders made a lot of mistakes! they had let the hizbulla build a terorist headquarter in beirut and south lebanon' they didnt send the lebanon army to the border in order to maintain the sis fire and maybe making a peace agreement.
you- the free civilians of lebanon did nothing agains it, did not demonstrate against the fact that the south of beirut and all of the south of lebanon becomes a teror`s nest.
we ' the israeli's did not have a choise and you know it!
im sitting in a shelter' and suffering, exactly as you do- but im willing to do so!
why? becouse i know the price im as an israeli civilian who live in the north of the country have to pay for the war, is a price warth paying. this war, will crash this hizbulla terorist- and in the end, you and me will not have to worry about those fondementalist terrorist who ruind your very beutifall country and wants to eliminate my country.
i hope you will understan.

turning pathlessly said...

what's most shame as i see it, as that we're being drawn into this by a handful of extremists.
i live in a city near tel aviv and i don't know anyone from lebanon, least of all hate anyone.
we keep forgetting that our two nations are ultimately a collective of individuals who basically want to live out their lives happily and with peace. so really, why not?
hezbolla denies israel's right to exist, but we are here, and here to stay, so we might as well make the best of things.
i hope you realize hezbolla must be brought down, it is our best chance for peace.

Andrey said...

I wonder, can there be a peaceful, revolution in two bordering countries, demanding the OTHERS to not make them fight.

box said...

shmulik: Argue our methods if you want but not our motives.

who gives a shit about your motives at this point? i judge your actions. israel's actions are immoral. barbaric. they must stop.

there is no "motive" good enough.

box said...

no one is making israel fight.
that is total bullshit. israel is responsible for what it's doing. lebanon isn't even able to defend itself. isn't this plain from the coverage you see?

do yourself a favor - turn the sound down on your TV - and just WATCH. then do the world a favor - believe your eyes.

Suha said...

Telling it like it is. Check out this article in the Lebanses Daily Star.
And I can assure you that the Daily Star was never Hizballah friendly.

box said...

MSNBC states: israel dropped 23 tons of explosives on bunker in beirut.

meanwhile, netanyahu is justifying to carl tuckerson israel's actions. he states "the lebanese government is impotent... is unwilling to do anything about it."

well - i think his first word was the correct one. "impotent" is what it looks like - and therefore a one-sided, murderous bombing campaign against a largely defenseless nation.

way to go, israel - after all - it's all about you.

lebanese_student said...

To the Lebanese: just tell me how many times we had to explain to foreigners who never visited Lebanon that it's a safe place? Let me guess: hundreds of times!

You summed up everything I've been thinking about today so eloquently. It took us 20 years to get on our feet, and right when we are ready to take a step forward, we not only get pushed to the ground but pummeled from all sides. Who is going to want to come back to this country now, including both the visitors and those that are from here ? It hurts my stomach to even think...even the most obvious how so proud we were of our airport...sparkling, smoke free for the most part, all the conveniences of a western airport...but what is the first thing that israel targeted ? the airport. Thinking about this just breaks me in a way I can't convey with words.
I want this to stop sooo bad.

Suha said...

I have a question to most Israelis on this forum:

It just occured to me that here I am for the past 6 days arguing with you calmly, while the IDF carries out a systematic destruction of my country with your approval.

I was wondering to myself, had I been a supporter of Hizballah, would you be patiently arguing with me the same way? I am asking this despite the fact that Hizballah's rocket pale in comparison to what the IDF is doing to Lebanon. I am curious.

Suha said...

but what is the first thing that israel targeted ? the airport.

Right, LS. And it is of no strategic value to Hizballah whatsoever. It is just meant to break us. So don't let it!

eran levi said...

Hello Doha – as an Israeli who watches the bombing on TV and understand the pain it causes I’m feeling the strong urge to try and explain to you why your people have to suffer so much so needlessly. It is because, dear Doha, you are sharing a country with an extremist bloodthirsty fanatic terror organization sworn to eradicate Israel while understanding its very existence depends on survival of this ideology. Unfortunately for the people of Lebanon, they made a fatal mistake when did not confront Hezbollah and its own government did nothing in an attempt to regain true sovereignty over their own lands. Now to your very horror you discover that this terrorists care little for your lives or economy, while attacking Israel inside it’s UN recognized borders after the Israeli army left Lebanon’s soil 6 years before that – without consulting the elected government. Now these so called “protectors of the Lebanese people” have built their headquarters and bases inside the urban streets of Beirut and among the villages of south Lebanon and use long range rockets which they lunch blindly into Israeli cities killing Jews and Arabs alike. Understand Doha – these rockets are fired from inside the populated urban eras, and the terrorists’ strongholds and rockets arsenal are hidden inside “innocent looking” houses. So why does your people have to suffer? Because for the past 6 years you let the Hezbollah take roots among your population – inside urban places – and the Lebanese people and the Lebanese government did nothing and simply let it happen, also allowing Hezbollah to acquire arms, rockets and missiles from Syria and Iran. Now dear Doha – the Israeli government – unlike your government – is not going to seat aside while terrorists do as they please: kidnapping legitimate border guarding troops and firing blindly into populated cities. Unfortunately, because of Hezbollah foul and cowardly tactics – hiding behind civilians – they and you in a way – have left us with no choice… Hezbollah will pay and anyone near any of its bases, storages, militants, supporters or armament will be in harms’ way. My advice to you: get away form Hezbollah’s forces and cry out against them – very soon we will rid this region from their military threat but the real chance for true everlasting peace between us is only possible if you start doing something to rid this world of Hezbollah’s dreadful ideology and existence – so it not longer a key player in the relationship between us.

I wish you no harm
Eran, shoham, Israel

box said... an Israeli who watches the bombing on TV and understand the pain it causes I’m feeling the strong urge to try and explain to you why your people have to suffer so much so needlessly. It is because, dear Doha, you are sharing a country...

benevolent eran of saint israel - no more excuses please.

eran levi said...

"box said...
benevolent eran of saint israel - no more excuses please. "

I bet you didn't even read my comment. there's no excuses - it's about time the Lebanese take responsibility over their actions or lack of one - read my last comment for true understanding on the subject.

Jay said...

eran levi,

do you not concede HA was a creation after Isael invasion of leb. Do you not bare any responsibility for its creation? You believe in your heart that what will be created after this will make israel safer? Do you think another civil war in leb is good for israel? is that the end game to keep the people in Leb in a civil war killing each other? We are not able to deal with HA, that is a fact. sad yes, but true. i repeat do you not think Israel is part responsibile for HA since you invaded. this is gettng horrible here, can you see that only more pain will follow for all of us?

box said...

saint eran said: read my last comment for true understanding on the subject.

which - this one?

I wish you no harm

do you really not understand what a hollow sentiment that is? especially coupled with a
"let me explain..." or "we can't help it" defense. i guess you won't understand how that deserves a hearty fuck you. maybe if you took your jackboot off of its privates for a second, then say it. even after torture, victims still want to hope.

israel has yet to take responsibility for its own actions. no more excuses.

Suha said...


I don't know how many times I and other Lebanese have to explain this to you. THE IDF IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO LIMIT ITSELF TO HIZBALLAH SITES. Read this and this article. Of course you wish us harm. Stop lying to yourself. This is collective punishment if I have seen any. And I would not wish or condone it for anyone under ANY banner or excuse. FULL STOP!

Andrey said...

Actualy, Iran and USA do make israel fight. Everithing that hapenes here and now was predicted by both israelis and iranians and is much of interest of us in the region. Israel HAS whitdrawn its forces from lebanon in 2000. Back then the ressidents of northern israel and the whole of israel where asking - how can we withdraw? wouldn't it bring hezbolah closer to us, would it not allow them to shoot rockets further into israel? would not they be able to cross the border easyly (and dressed like IDF soldiers shoot and kill innocent bus passengers)?
The answer of the goverment to the israely citizens was that: if we would be inside our borders, any atack fromt them wouldnt be rightful they ARE NOT RESISTANCE ANY MORE!!! , and we would then have the right to response as we will.
too bad that it was said only to the citizence of israel, and as I see here lebanon knew nothing about it

Jay said...


is this really collective punishment or does Israel want Leb in a civil war? this makes no sense, its more then barbaric

box said...

well, audrey, if that's the case, that's it. i'm going to go ahead, arm myself to the teeth and go on a spree - if anyone allows me to live through it, i'll be sure to tell them who made me do it. because i am nothing short of pissed, pissed, pissed, and other people are making me!

box said...

heavy sarcasm, of course... i can't even kill spiders.

3li- said...

Thanks for the Daily Star article. Here's another I thought will help shed some perspective as well...

boaz said...

To Suha:

I don't know if I should answer you, since I don't really support the current Israeli action, but I would have supported it if it was more limited and exclusively targeted at Hizballah strongholds. Anyway, here is my perspective:

First, note that while Israel is inflicting much more damage on Lebanon as a whole, some towns in Israel are getting a massive amount of rockets that is not less than anything that is done in Lebanon. And these towns are not settlements or places where most people are extreme - their only crime is that they are within easy rocket range for the Hizbollah.

If you were supporting the Hizbollah and willing to argue with me calmly I would be happy to- at the end of the day I believe the Hizbollah is much more dangerous to Lebanon that it is to Israel, and so I am more likely to lose my calm arguing with Israeli right-wing religious fanatics (which I believe are more dangerous to Israel than the Hizbollah). Anyway, my experience arguing with fanatics is that it's usually pointless since we come from such different places (they believe that they know god's will and therefore everything they do is right).

I think that part of what Israel is doing is legitimate response to Hizbollah, that has attacked Israel in our own territory and has ammassed a (and used) a great number of rockets pointed at us. The other part (such as bombing the airport), which is harming innocent lebanese citizens is not so legitimate. While the official claim is that they are only targeting infrastructure used by the Hizbollah, I believe this is only partly true, and that the IDF is trying to collectively punish the citizens of Lebanon and to pressure them into dealing with Hizbollah. The only thing I can say to the IDF's defence is that, although they are inflicting huge damage, they are not bombing completely indiscrimanetly. For example, from what I read in the papers they deliberately bombed only the runway, that can be fixed rather easily, rather than the control towers. (I realize that this sounds like someone poking your eye out and asking you to thank him that he didn't poke out the other one...)

This action is very popular in Israel, because people feel that since we have withdrawn from Lebanon, there is no occupation there and so there is no justification to what was done. Also it was felt that Hizbollah tried to "kick us while we're down" and timed its action exactly when another soldier was kidnapped near Gaza, so Israelis were very angry and wanted to show Nassaralla we can fight in two fronts.

The problem is that once the ball got rolling, and we already both attacked so heavily and endured ourselves so many rockets, people don't want it to stop without seeing that it had some effect. Also seeing these Hizbollah rockets in action makes Israelis want to ensure there will be no more such rockets near Israel.

I myself think that the damage to the relationship between the two countries and the trust between the two people and the entire region is not worth whatever temporary advantage Israel gains, but I am in a minority.


eran levi said...

"Jay said...
do you not concede HA was a creation after Israel invasion of leb. Do you not bare any responsibility for its creation?"

I wish to remind you that Israel entered Lebanon last time in order to stop another terrorist group that was bent on Israel's destruction – the Palestinian liberation front that was hiding among Lebanese population and firing rockets at Israel. Again – the Lebanese people were impotents and set aside while the Palestinian terror organizations took hold of Beirut. After Israel’s army left Lebanon’s soil the reason for Hezbollah’s existence ended and the organization should have died with it – but in order to sustain itself Hezbollah insists on igniting to war again – while the Lebanese government does nothing.

“Jay said...
Do you think another civil war in leb is good for israel?”

I think another civil war is good for Lebanon, you should answer me what do you prefer: facing Hezbollah and forcing them to recognize the fact that it is not the sovereign government in Lebanon or do you prefer to let them keep at their act? Why sure you prefer to avoid conflict – it suits you well since your not the one on the other edge of the Hezbollah’s rocket – well guess what – if you won’t face Hezbollah – you’ll face us! We have to make you understand that in not facing your demons – you will only drag us into Lebanon – and in the long run what do you prefer? Hezbollah’s militants or our missiles?

“Jay said...
We are not able to deal with HA, that is a fact. sad yes, but true.”

Lier! You are a sovereign country! Hezbollah is the minority – you, the sane people, are the majority – and you have now the support of the western world, Israel, and many of the Arab nations! Cast out fanatic extremist and be blessed with many years of peace and prosperity.

Andrey said...

in greek culture there is a grate sin called the "hibris" which means pride (well, too much of of it). in their plays, the sin of hibris brings their hero to detruction. Israelis havd the sin of hibris after 67, and have payed for it in 72. Nassralah had this sin now, but he has a unfortuantly U are the one to pay for his sins.
(Just another descrityion of the situation, to make us all as objective as we may be - these are not my thaughs)

Gidi said...

To Jay,

Trying to lay the responsiblity for the creation of Huzbulla on Israel is circumstancial at best. At worst, it is a feeble attempt to try and deflect the responsiblities of a sovereign nation to the goings-on in its own territory. The Israeli offensive of 1982 is just a cause.
The reason for the formation of Hizbulla is nothing more than hatred. The truth of the matter is that it is the mere existance of the state of Israel is sufficient to stem such organizations.
The killings, on both sides, are terrible. They are in themselves immoral, and nothing can be said to change that. But so is targeting civilians, so is using soldiers as bargaining cards and so is provoking a war. War, in essence, is a deviation from morality, such that no side can be trully moral. But this hardly changes the reality of confrontation being a means -- sometimes the only means -- of assuring that I'll be here tomorrow, to type another reply.
Alas, this is not the real tragedy of our co-joined story: the true tragidy is that modrate voices, like Suha and yourself's, have less than a whisper ever since 1948. Where were such moderate, accepting voices then? Perhaps Muslim culture was not ready for plurality and moderation then. Perhaps it is not ready for it yet. But let us face the bottom line -- nothing like this would have ever happened had you raised your voices. It is the fact that the presence of Hizbulla on your soil never bothered you by the least, and now you're paying a steep price (maybe even too steep). This is the real difference between our societies -- that we, unlike you, are ready and willing to forget.

Suha said...


I left you a comment on another post explaining that I did not intend to launch a blanket attack. I was addressing "macho posters", "let's bomb the shit out of them" posters. I thought you should know.

I think the Daily Start article on the media coverage hits the nail right on the head. Concerning the one you sent, I agree that the core issue to solve is the Palestinian issue. I think it will have a domino effect.

I too am looking for a way into Beirut. I cannot stand this anymore. Are you there?

Suha said...

The only thing I can say to the IDF's defence is that, although they are inflicting huge damage, they are not bombing completely indiscrimanetly.

Not to be too cynical, but that would not leave any bargaining chips, now would it?

I suppose I should have been clearer in that I was asking those who support the current war on Lebanon. But, thank you for your clear and honest answer.

boaz said...

Eran, Gidi,

Israel does bear responsibility for Hizbollah's creation. Also, it's not true that 1982 was only about PLO rockets - the official excuse was the shooting of the Israeli ambassador in Britain (which was not done by the PLO) and the real reason was Sharon's plan to move the Palestinan refugees to Jordan and create there a Palestian state.

Regardless of what happened then, what's happening now will only make Hizbollah more popular- It's only natural that people unite together when they have a common enemy, and Israel definitely gives all Lebanese now too many reasons to consider it their enemy.

Think about this: try to suggest now to Israel that we should evacuate settlements, when we're under fire, and people will think you're crazy. Of course it's actually in our interest to evacuate settlements, just as it is in lebanon's interest to dismantle the Hizbollah, but nobody likes do be forced to do things at gunpoint.


boaz said...

Suha - thanks.

I hope all your friends and family are well, and that this will be over soon. I have lebanese friends and I feel terrible about what's going on there.


3li- said...


I wish I were, as insane as that sounds. That is the only way I feel I can quench the guilt and powerlessness I feel right now.

I feel numb, I want to scream, bouts of rage engulf me and then sheer exhaustion.

The absurdity of this spectacle is hard to fathom. It is a nightmare I cannot wake up from.

I can say a lot, but I will leave it for another time.

Thank you for standing up for some reason and sanity (against all emotional and psychological odds).

Doha said...

Eran and to all others,

Can't you understand that since Israelis pulled out in 2000, Lebanon was still manipulated by Syria? Why are you blinding yourself to a reality that the Lebanese only had one freakin' year to take things into their own hands. The Syrian military OFFICIALLY left in April of 2005. This gives us a year. Then we had elections and then we formed a government. And during that year many journalists and politicians were targeted and assassinated. And during that year we decided to all sit together in a dialogue table to discuss the pertinent issues at hand, amongst them the disarmament of Hizbullah.

We were not given a chance through DIALOGUE, not force, to disarm Hizbullah. Now Hizbullah went ahead and kidnapped the two soldiers, that was beyond the knowledge of the government. But the force Israel is using now on Lebanon is so brutal and excessive.

So please stop saying that we did not do anything; WE WERE NOT GIVEN THE CHANCE TO!!!!

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jay said...

eran levi calls me a liar. when have opinions become lies? you are blinded by nationalism my friend. in the end we will all suffer for your countries aggression.

Do jews still hate us for making them kill our children?

Jay said...

or maybe now it doesnt feel so bad eran levi

turning pathlessly said...


What else can Israel do?
If Israel hadn't taken upon itself to disarm hezbillah, who's to assure the Israeli people that their solider's will be returned and no more kidnapped?

i'm not trying to justify this war, that has landed on both our nations back, believe me, none of us want this war.

When it's over and done with, i can only hope we pick up the pieces together.

box said...

elad, introducing themselves as a "leftist" said: we got in and we will fight to the end untill there will be no more shooting, untill you are free, and we are free of you, and most of all free of hizbullah, that even though i am a part of the peace camp, ...

WOW. that's just the type of freedom the US have provided to so many iraqis - even the freedom from having to bring air... "eternal" freedom, as it were. i will do myself a favor and reject the notion that you are part of israel's "peace camp."

Shmulik said...

I have heard your reasoning an it's nice but not real.
Do you honestly believe that a religeous organisation like the hizballah that gets 100 million dolars a year from Iran will surrender it's weapons just because Seniora asks nicely?
call me a cynic but I know how afraid you are from civil war. Wouldn't your goverment talk forever with the hizballah while only israelis are killed? would they trt to disarm hizballah and risk a civil war for Israel's sake?? In their shoes I'll do the same and this is the problem.

box said...

i see red whenever someone from israel says "what could we do?"

obviously if it couldn't see another way, your country is nothing short of INCAPABLE OF GOVERNING.

the war hasn't "landed on both country's back," as poetic as that may sound. israel is flattening the country of lebanon, and you have the balls to come here and say - "what could we do?"

Andrey said...

War is when civilince die for higher course (this time just for irans fun). today 3 moslems from israel died, 2 of them children.

eran levi said...

Stop playing dumb – like Hezbollah ever gonna disarm itself, gimme a break – either the Lebanese government except the terms of truce by Israel (implantation of decision 1559 and the return of the Israeli kidnapped soldiers – perfectly reasonable demands) or Israel will see itself committed to break Hezbollah by itself, and since Hezbollah hides among civilians – yes – many more innocents will suffer costly until the Lebanese people will learn to stay away from Hezbollah forces and start taking responsibility to what is going on in their country.

And one more thing – I wish to comment regarding the bombing of the Lebanese airport near Beirut and the destruction of many highways and bridges along the country:
It is a known fact that hezbollah is connected to Syria and Iran and it is no secret they get their missiles and rockets from them – as well as funding. Israel has put Lebanon in siege because – again – the lebanese government will do nothing to prevent smuggling of troops, weapons, armament and rockets to hezbollah from Syria. Only an idiot will start a war with an enemy without trying to stop his reinforcement and ammunition supply. With the Beirut-damascus road ruined and the airport blasted – no fresh supplies of armament will reach hezbollah and with the bridges on the Litani river racked – there will be no movement of hezbollah troops to the south to reinforce their front lines. So – yes! The bridges and airports are a strategic targets!

And one last thing: Israel hit the lebanese army radar posts because these were used to help guide the Iranian missile shot by hezbollah militants that hit the Israeli warship a few days ago. There is no reason for Israel to weaken the lebanese army – but we will tolerate no cooperation with hezbollah.

Jay said...

I know of the children. I recognize loss on both sides, but to justify destroying this country and saying "we are doing what we have to" is mindless. youu muct know it will be worse now for everyone. the extremists here will only gain more power.

earlier post from doha is very accurate:
Why are you blinding yourself to a reality that the Lebanese only had one freakin' year to take things into their own hands. The Syrian military OFFICIALLY left in April of 2005. This gives us a year. Then we had elections and then we formed a government. And during that year many journalists and politicians were targeted and assassinated. And during that year we decided to all sit together in a dialogue table to discuss the pertinent issues at hand, amongst them the disarmament of Hizbullah.

Shmulik said...

Please Jay reread my las post and tell me what you think.

Jay said...

eran levi,
you sound like a man with no soul, i don't know who you are or where your are but your words are not of a man that intimately knows the horrors of war.

Jay said...

your are a reasnable man i have come to see on this board. I understand what you are saying, i truely understand. we only had a short time after Syria left as doha stated, we deserved more time. why not punish iran or syria, some said they are the beast and HA the arms. why not kill the beast. I dont say you should but why punish us after what has happened here. iran will build another HA is this one is destroyed. maybe you will destroy all of us this time.

eran levi said...

"Jay said...
eran levi,
you sound like a man with no soul, i don't know who you are or where your are but your words are not of a man that intimately knows the horrors of war."

you'll be surprised to know I'm serving as a soldier in the IDF but my job is helping international organizations and diplomatic missions promote projects inside the west bank - actually I'm part of the civil administration and feel great responsibility to help the Palestinian people become independent and prevent humanitarian crisis - but then again I live in Israel - were there are suicide bombings, rocket lunching into populated areas and shooting at innocent bystanders with the intention of killing them just because they are Israelis. so you can't blame me for believing that terror must be purged - and the civilians that harbor it and let it hide among them deserve a similar fate.

I'm ready to talk and give up much to anyone who denounce terror and is ready to stand up against it - otherwise your part of the problem.

Lirun said...


u are plainly inflammatory and you are ignoring the responses to you..

i take on board Doha's comments about the brevity of lebanon's separation from syrian control.. but i dont understand why it waits for israeli intervention before it calls for international assistance.. why couldnt lebanon have made a plea to the international community while the hizbulla was driving it down a valley of death..

why does it seem reasonable to you that while lebanon sits in silence israel needs to cop rockets day in and day out for six years..

the cedar revolution - and we bless and commend it - came at the expense of a lot of israeli restraint involving us being the restrained target of many many huzbulla rockets..

israel has as such been forced to pay the price for lebanese complacency for years.. but now when we are finaly fed up.. now when we finally respond not only to your lack of sovereignty but to your fellow citizens abuse of ours.. now you erupt in anger and call us liars?

you tell me to avoid your site and set up an alternative blog to demonstrate my genuine ambition to achieve peace and then you ignore me.. do you think i personally need your approval? israel is resilient and strong and as israelis it is clear to us that it is by choice that we exercise our force in a discerning manner rather than acting like your aggressive brothers inthe south and indiscriminately firing 1300 rockets just about anywhere.. and equally.. it is by choice that every voice on this site extending you an olive branch seeks to do so..

what are you thinking?! that we get paid just to write stupid empty statements to tickle your anger?

come on boxsta.. get real buddy..

you tell me to start a blog for dialog and all you do is ignore everyone.. now why dont youshow some integrity and respond to my post

still wishing you health, safety and peace


box said...

eran says: you'll be surprised to know I'm serving as a soldier in the IDF but my job is helping international organizations and diplomatic missions promote projects inside the west bank...

no, eran - i'm not surprised you are a part of the IDF, specifically in the "marketing" department. military "marketing" pretty much is about selling ideas such as government's official party lines. nope - not surprised at all.

Shmulik said...

you ask two seperate questions and I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability.
1)we don't see this attack as punishment at all, collective or otherwise. We believe that we simply defend our borders, our cities and our soldiers. Hizballah has attacked us repeatedly and will continue to do so. We try to target the Hizballah but the fact they hide behind your civilians and use your infrastructure makes it impossible to spare you. We know innocent lebanese will be caught in the cross-fire. We try to minimize it with leaflets and guided weapons but we know it full well. Hizballah forces us to choose between israeli and lebanese civilians. It's a tragic choice but a clear one for us. You may call us heartless, but in our shoes most people would choose the same.

2)Why not iran and Syria? that's a good question. Many in Israel believe we should do exactly that. No one in the goverment has explained why not. There are many answers but I believe it's a simple answer, cowardice. We believe we can kick Syria and/or Iran's butt's but we know heavy loses are expected. Do you know what a missile containing VX nerve gas in the middle of Tel-Aviv can do? Sure we can nuke them later but that won't bring back the dead.
You see the irony is that an insane organization and two goverments doing very logical things, together cause this tragedy.

eran levi said...

no no box -
Israel's army is different then what you know - israel's army is the people's army - every one must recruit at the age of 18, you will find all the manner of people inside - but when they put on their uniforms they are working for their country. but what I'm saying is only my points and views alone - know that this war in the first time in decades has 80% support in the israeli public.

And I'm actually working with the international organization and diplomatic missions in cooperation in order to allow on one hand the prevention of a humanitarian disaster and Palestinian infrastructure relief and the security interests of the Israeli state on the other hand.

box said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jay said...


maybe i would feel the same in your shoes but i believe you would feel the same as me in my shoes. there is tragedy is everywhere in this world. i remember a jew named elie weisel said once he know a man in a concetration camp who prayed and he ask him why. the man said i am thanking god for not making me like them (the germans) maybe sometimes all we can do is be thankful we are not like the men who only live to kill.
good night for today

box said...

lirun said: why does it seem reasonable to you that while lebanon sits in silence israel needs to cop rockets day in and day out for six years..

not for nothing, israel doesn't play the "victim" role very well - do you really think i'm going to believe that israel has done nothing on its northern border between 2000-present? in my limited time boning up on this history, i've already seen plenty to the contrary. so you can peddle that shit somewhere else.

you tell me to avoid your site and set up an alternative blog to demonstrate my genuine ambition to achieve peace and then you ignore me.. do you think i personally need your approval?

genuine ambition for peace - as long as we accept that israel's actions are just. that's peace talking? i don't need freedom from breathing air, thank you - which is all you have brought to most living across your borders.

i will never forget your wholesale, unprecedented aggression against lebanon. never. if i have any power, ever, in these US, i will use it to stop US support of and alliance with your country, if israel continues along this path. i know plenty of others in the states who feel the same way, singly because of your horrific actions in lebanon. this is the last straw for many americans, who never could quite understand US's allegiance to israel in the first place.

as for your approval - you seem to be like a little child. yes, i think you need it; but you're wrong to think i need yours. so there, there, you attention-starved brat - i've responded to you. i guess negative attention is better than none at all.

Lirun said...



well i nonetheless thank you for the inspiration of setting up a blog.. you hurl accusations so indiscriminately.. you fire your sharp tongue so readily.. i dont see exactly how you forward your own cause or represent anything different to what you condemn.. whats more you boast of your ignorance and base extreme statements on admittedly minimal research..

again.. in israel we live not only our truth but also our mistakes.. we argue bitterly right and wrong and openly challenge eachother vehemently..

this blog is a wonderful opportunity for both sides to learn of each other's concerns.. i hope behind your offensive communication there is also a mind that is listening to our concerns and perhaps even learning how we may bridge them in future..

i wont continue to nag you :)

again.. wishing you and the entire state of lebanon health, safety and peace

lirun (apparently the attention "craving" brat)

ps long live and god bless doha and her well researched thorough thoughtful and dialog provoking posts

Shmulik said...

We don't live to kill, we kill to live,
A greek historian named Thucidydes said over 2000 years ago "The strong did what they could and the weak suffered as they must". With all the sympathy we have for your plight (no sarcassm) this is a fundamental truth as old as the human race.

box said...

i see "23 tons of explosives" dropped in beirut today, along with a "record-setting" number of dead counted (who knows how many uncounted), i call your action "unwarranted aggression." i guess i'm just an idiot for that.

these are the concerns i have. are you listening, or just interested in calling me inflammatory for my views?

i don't know if you understand board/blog etiquette - but no one is required to respond to another. sometimes people play by this rule: 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.' sometimes i even practice that - sometimes i just think the comments are too inane to respond to. you can pick.

Jay said...

I didn't mean you, i mean any men, it was a quote for all man not for Leb or isr. my wife says it is time to go to bed she says too much with the computer....

Shay said...

I argee. Wholly unfair. It really is.
We are both being manipulated by outside forces. Iran or Syria or both, it doesn't matter, we're both dying because of others' interests.

Perhaps Iran felt that it would lose it's puppets in Lebanon soon if it didn't make HA to take action.

This sucks :(

Shmulik said...

Good night I should hit the sack too.

Lirun said...

good night all

im exhausted - this is so addictive..

box said...

shay, i disagree. whether or not we are being manipulated by outside forces, we have the luxury of access to information - and we have the luxury of safety, as well, to ponder these things.

i continue to contend it is an israeli mass cognitive dissonance to support the idea that hezbollah is making israel decimate lebanon. a better lie yet - SYRIA and IRAN is making hezbollah, is making israel.

and even now, palestinian lives are being taken daily by israel and their plight, just as unjust, is overshadowed by this action. what will the world have to pay for israeli's constant temper tantrums? what will the world have to pay for its inability to live in peace within its borders and leave its neighbors alone?

this is too much to bear.

Sir Sefirot said...

Amir: It's an interesting point of view, and in some aspects I agree with it. But I'm affraid I am not that optimistic with the so-called palestinians.

Mirvat: You might want to look some news about "500 shells with mustard and nerve gas found in Iraq". Last time I checked, those qualify indeed as WMD.

"Sir sefirot
I really enjoy that you like us so much but there is a name to the things you say: racism.
despite the fact many believe zionism=racism, I am a proud zionist and still consider the kind of racism you stand for abhorent. If you think there are no murderers, thives or rapists in Israel please think again."

If you mean, cultural racism (discrimination between cultures), then yes, I'm culprit. I love some cultures and hate anothers.

If you mean traditional racism (discrimination between races) then I totally deny this. I don't care from where someone is, I care how he sees things and what he thinks about them. And I don't think this is bad at all. As always, subtle difference, but a world apart in significance.

Sir Sefirot said...

And yes, I know no one is perfect, and I don't agree with lots of things Israel has done (god guard us from being perfect), but some people are better than others, even in relative or statistic terms. That's what I care about.

Shmulik said...

We think that when Hizballah launches a rocket from inside a village (I have seen destroyed rocket launchers 3 meters from a house in Al-jazeera) they force us to choose between lebanese and israeli civilians. What would you choose?

Shmulik said...

sir sefirot
if I was alive 700 years ago I could use your argument against you. The spanish inquisition, the deaths in the new world and so on.

Sir Sefirot said...

So true, but luckily we have evolved since then :p But I have to remind you, we did even worse things, like killing entire civilizations in the New World (now Mexico and South America), and until 25 years ago we were still in a dictatorship, a bloody one in case you don't know about it. As I said, we learned from our errors, and nowadays you can't recognize in us the country that did all these things, because we aren't any longer. I don't say other countries can't do that kind of change, but I can say that they haven't for the moment, and they aren't even willing to. They change, I'll like them. Simple.

Shmulik said...

Sir Sefirot
This is a long moral dicussion and I have to go to bed. Good night.

john23 said...

The israeli's said they will kick you back 20 years if you dont relese the hijacked solidres - and They Did !

Gidi said...


Kindly drop the "Responsibility" line of arguments. It's rediculous. Since you're just stating historical facts, you're doing nothing more than stating different causes for Hizbulla's uprising. Any historical fact you can cite is obviously true, since it's a fact, yet you cannot argue that there is only one cause, or that one of the many contributing causes is predominant. Therefore, this line of debate is irrelevant.

As for this unifying Lebanon -- I wouldn't be too hasty. Obviously this calamity will cause like sentiments across the board, but Lebanon never was a truly homogenous nation. Don't be so sure that all past arguments would suddenly dissapear in light of these disaster. It may for a while after, but not forever.

Finally, I'd like to pose a question to all those who admantly claim this course of action is so wrong -- what do you suggest would be a better way to go about this crisis? (because, frankly, I feel the burden of proof is entirely on yourselves.)

Sir Sefirot said...

"The israeli's said they will kick you back 20 years if you dont relese the hijacked solidres - and They Did !"

I love it when people keep Their Word(tm) :)

"Finally, I'd like to pose a question to all those who admantly claim this course of action is so wrong -- what do you suggest would be a better way to go about this crisis? (because, frankly, I feel the burden of proof is entirely on yourselves.)"

gidi, indeed. Been asking this same question around, have received no answer yet. Hope you have better luck.

Shay said...

box - the Lebanon and Palestinian fronts are two separate issues. Tempterment or not, Israel is not stupid, it is not by choice that we open a second front.

Like it or not, I contend, and most analysts agree, that if it weren't for HA attack, none of this would have happenned.

Sometimes things are actually that simple; cause and effect.

Mik said...

The reason you're tagged weak is because you (where by you, I refer to Saniora and the government that represent you) are weak.

If the Hezbollah can independantly decide to carry out massive military action against a neighbouring state and the government is in no position to stop them, the government is weak.

If openly siding with the government, the demilitarization of anyone but the government's army, is seen as treason, you are weak.

And it's not Israel you're being compared to. It's not Israel who is your enemy. It's your beloved hostage-taker, the entity that holds your entire nation at gunpoint, that forces you into a painful war you neither need nor want, that is your real enemy.

Most lebanese bloggers are too weak to admit this reality. When you guys grow a spine, take your country back from selfish people who terrorize it, you continue being nothing, people that no country cares about them because they're too lazy, scared and sorry for themselves to care for themselves. The woman who held the sign up is a brave person. You could use more like her.

Not because she serves a pro-this or anti-that agenda, but because she actually stood up for herself and for her country and looked the ugly truth in the face - that Israel did not put you in this shithole - that your negligence of policing your own turf did. She acknowledged one simple truth - that the power to stop this is right in your lap. All you need to do is give the right people power. And by right people I refer to people that will uphold your own interests, not those of Israel.

Until that happens, you are nothing but second rate Nasrallah lackeys (First-rate being Hezbollah-loyalists who proclaim themselves as affiliated with the people that actually call the shots in country). You're a minority whose _real_ governing body gives nothing about, that in spite of being a numerical majority can't control their own corner of the world.

Look at the palestinians and where 30 years of whining about injustice got them. Then look at countries that said "Enough!" and actually did something to fix their own prolems rather than whine and blame everyone else in the world while doing nothing.

What have YOU done for your country today?

Mik said...

Suha - nobody in Israel wants your people's sympathy. Nobody gives a shit about who you sympathize. Sympathize with Osama Bin-Laden for all they care.

What people in Israel want is to teach you math, because apparently you're very bad at it.

If you neglect policing your turf and let your dogs run free, it will hurt, and hurt badly.
Your country neglected its responsibility, now your country is learning the hard way.
From an Israeli perspective, nobody wants or expects you to become Israeli loyalists.

Israelis don't expect you to say to Hezbollah "Stop bombing Israel, they're our friends!". They're not stupid.

What Israelis expect you to do is say to the hezbollah "Are you totally out of your mind?!!!! If you fire those rockets at Israel, Israel will bomb us all right back into the stone age, destroy our entire tourist industry, halt growth, demolish the economy and scare away every living foreign investor!".

And given what Israel does now hurts you enough (I'm not suggesting civilian casaulties here, I'm thinking more along the lines of tear down your economy and make everyone in the nation much poorer), that's exactly what you will, eventually, say.

It's just a question of how long it needs to hurt for your people to understand that yelping "ou!" does not prevent it, while putting a leash on the Hezbollah will.

As I've stated in a previous post, the power is in your hands. Use it.

Greg Bacon said...


Israel's use of "BLITZKRIEG" war tactics--first, heavy aerial bombardment, then massive shelling using artillery pieces and tanks, and finally, a major push using overwhelming infantry forces--against the hapless civilans in both Gaza and Lebanon, was first used and refined by the Nazis in WW II.

It's a bit ironic that Israel, who never misses a chance to blame the world and sow guilt for what happened during WW II, uses the same military tactics that the Nazi controlled Wehrmacht employed to success 65 years ago.

Way to go Israel! You've already turned the West Bank and Gaza into concentration camps with your so-called "security fence."
Now, instead of using gas chambers for your "FINAL SOLUTION" of dealing with the Palestinians and now, the Lebanonese, you use F-16's and 155 mm artillery shells, white phosphorous and cluster bombs.
Israel must have forgot the old saying, "Choose your enemies well."

Greg Bacon
Ava, MO

Shmulik said...

Greg bacon
If you think tha usin armor, artillery, infantry and tanks together is named blitzkrieg or is a kind of war crime than you have no idea what you are talking about it's called "combined arms" and, like blitzkrieg is a legitmate tactic. If you believe having more troops is some kind of war crime than I guess you should check out arab countries around Israel.

Shmulik said...

f you compae 300 dead (civilians & militants) in a complicated strike against international terroists (excuse me, "freedom-fighters") who hide inside villages and behind children to be "final solution" you should really talk to an historian (or a psychiatrist).

Shmulik said...

Sorry foer all the grammar mistakes, I'm dead tired

Yigael Alon said...

you said you want answers?you said you want to sea what the other side thinks?
well this is your chance.

my job is a guide tour. that maynot sound like much but in the middle east that means i know history, archeology, geology, wars, bits of architecture and art and ofcorse the basic 3 religions + the druze and baha'a.

any questions you want to ask? this is the place to ask them, i know allmost anything israel has done and i know why. i dont promise to offer justification if there arent any. i can only pronmise to show you the argument israel has and my opinion on it all.

as an apatizer, ill start with the palestinian refugee's camps.

im not gonna argue about is it ok that there are refugee camps - that a whole diffrent subject. i'll start from the point that they've sattled untill now.

as a fact the arab countries never cared for the palestinians. no one wanted them to have theyre own country in the days of the othman empire (although palestinian congressstarted in 1911!) no one cared about theyre struggle against jorden.
but every one care now. also every one cared in 48. why? the diffrence is not for who you fight, its more against who you fight.
the palestinian people have been a tool in the hands of anti-israel forces as leverage against her directly and indierect (through the UN). those forces only care about the palestinian people because of israel (why did no one ever give them the state on the west bank between 48 and 67?)

your saying refugees. after the war of 48, the nachba, as some like to call it (and i agree that for the palestinian people it is THE nachba) jews that lived in arab countrys (Lybia, Marocco, Tunis, Syria, Eygept, Iran,Iraq, Yemen and more) had to leave it, they were forced to leave. in most cases they were not allowed to bring anything valubale. in 48 you had between 650,000 to 800,000 palestinians refugees. these numbers are more or less the same.
before they came here the jewish settlement in israel sumed in 600,000 people. that means that in 4 years more or less the numbered has been more then doubled. people here got food whith stamps for a decade. today we dont have refugee camps. if you check youll see that they probaly make less money in generel, have less education in generel but no refugee camps.
if 600,000 people could have done this why arab contrys haven done this. why didnt they use the money the jewish communities left behind - and it was a considrable amount at times. my best guess is that everyone figured that israel will fall soon so they neglected it. but why is it being neglected today? are you still waiting for israel to fall? why dont you take care for them, educate them? or are you waiting for us to do it because we created the problem.
we took care of our own. we didnt wait for any one else to help us.

i am no nationalist. i dont even belive in a jewish state (nor any state of religion) but tough questions can be thrown in your court too.

i know that the jewish state has created the refugees camps to begin with and ill be happy to answer on that too. if you ask.

for conclusion. my deepest sympathy for your countey as some other guy wrote here. lebanon has been sold out. you'r right.
i pity the 500,000 displaced people more then i pity the 300 dead because alot of that half million , when they try to vome back they will see they have no where to come back to.
i am ashamed of alot of things my country have done. this is just a dot in a long line. but its not allways wrong. as in mosr cases in the middle east, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

p.s every one are welcomed to ask.

Yigael Alon said...

ho. and a couple of comments ago i've seen someone that decided israel is using blitzkrieg tacktics.

1. this is not blitzkrieg tackticks. blitzkrieg tacktics determens that you conquer ad fast and brutal as you can. this is not the case.
2. blitzkrieg tactic was used for the first time in world war II by the nazies. but its a battle tactic it doesnt has anything raceist in it.
its like clameing that usage of atom bombs is allways good because the u.s used it first.
that is just stupid. its a tactic not an ideology.

ikimasu said...

Gente de Israel:
No entiendo como permiten que sus governantes los conviertan a todos uds. en Genosidas (al menos Genosidas en potencia), como pueden destruir un país entero simplemente porque tienen un mayor poderio o porque pueden hacerlo...Se están convirtiendo en lo que más detestan ASESINOS..tengan presente que el MUNDO ENTERO los mira con ojos de TERROR..y estas son heridas que no sanan rapidamente.
Uds. son los que tienen el mayor poder de fuego, el mayor potencial y riquesas y junto a esto tienen la mayor responsabilidad y la obligación de actuar con inteligencia y medir sus daños. No pueden destruir un país entero

acaso piensa que el pueblo libanes es su enemigo??

soleil said...

as an israeli and canadian citizen i have to say that the hizballah had kidnapped lebbanon.
i know that the lebanease citizens suffer but we suffer too, for many years and we want to give our children ordinary and peacefull life.
it's our right and obligation to fight the terrorists that want to destroy and kill us.
we now do the job for the whole world.
people are dying here but we are strong and we'll demolish the cancer that is called hizballah!
it would be nice to have the world's support.
i wish good life and peace to you all.