Monday, July 31, 2006

Lost

I wonder what Lebanon and the region will look like after this protracted calamity is over. How long will the IDF generals need, and how much destruction will they sow, in order to "save face?" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the real winner of this conflict is thus far.

On the ground Hizballah has repelled Israeli incursions. On the airwaves, they're winning the propaganda war - in Lebanon, the Arab world and almost everywhere else on this planet. At this point in time, I truly believe that Israel lies in an intractable bind: whatever it does, Hizballah will win.

If Israel cannot even claim some sort of victory on the ground (however vague such a victory may be), the IDF will suffer utter humiliation, and thus have to deal with the short and long term consequences of such a defeat. If, on the other hand, Israel continues its offensive in search of that elusive victory, Hizballah's stature will only grow in prominence both in Lebanon and the entire region.

The fact the generals simply can't swallow is that it really does not matter how much of Hizballah's military capability they eliminate. As long as Hizballah retains its legitimacy, it will merely regroup and probably grow even stronger with time. And all it takes to reinforce that legitimacy is a massacre such as the one that transpired in Qana yesterday. As I wrote earlier in this entry, the military outcome of this war no longer matters: Hizballah has won - it is not going anywhere, and its losses are merely temporary.

The exit strategy now rests on diplomatic efforts to find some sort of "comprehensive solution" that includes the Shebaa farms, prisoner exchanges, deployment of a joint UN-Lebanese Army force in the South of Lebanon, etc.... Unfortunately, it appears that the Israelis do not want to exit at this point in time. Moreover, who knows if Hizballah will even play along.

Again, I go back to the question I asked at the beginning of this entry: how will Lebanon and its environment look like when all this destruction comes to an end? Will a cease fire be reached in two days, two weeks, two months, or (god forbid) two years? I guess we'll have to ask the Israeli generals since the ball appears to be in their court.

157 comments:

FreeCyprus said...

God this must end. In the name of God, peace, not war. In the name of God, love, not hate.

-- FreeCyprus
http://hellenic-reporter.blogspot.com/

NoWhereMan said...

Do we speak the same language? It looks like English, but the Lebanese definitions do not make any sense to me. It is interesting to see that Hebollah has "won" in this nightmare. No wonder the middle east is so screwed up. What will the next Hezbollah "win" cost? Will 1000 innocent Lebanese civilians need to lose their life? If 10000 children are killed, will that be a bigger "win" for Hezbollah?

I hope your native tongue contains words that make more sense. My native understanding of English leaves me bewildered to understand this madness. I am sure many other Americans are left numb when they try to grasp this crazy confict. The poor innocent Lebanese civilians wonder why the rest of the world sits idle during this mess.

Unfortunately, I only can use English to describe what I see. It makes sense that there is no cease fire, but my words will have no meaning with your definitions.

Shirin said...

This must end now!!
Not in two days and not in two weeks. Each day the damage in our country, beautiful Lebanon is bigger, people die... children die. Please, i hope with the help of Allah the end is close.

Shirin from Lebanon
http://shirin-from-lebanon.blogspot.com/

JoseyWales said...

Nowhereman Raja is right,

Whether we like it or not, dead civilians are in the short and medium term a plus for Hezbollah.

Raja,

This mess WON'T end before Syria is SERIOUSLY threatened with serious consequences.

If Bush and Israel do not understand this, Lebanon or the South will become Gaza.

Jia Li said...

This has to end, I am very upset that my government (Canada) is not doing much about this after 8 Canadians and one Canadian peacekeeper has died.

I am upset at my fellow Canadians for turning a blind eye on this matter.

even my parents don't understand why I cry when I read about this or watch it on TV.

To see the destruction just rips my heart out.

Because of this a good friend of mine has created a blog about it.

www.warinlebanon64.blogspot.com

Omer (israeli) said...

Sad to say, but Raja is right.
Hizballah will rebuild, no matter how much damage they sustain. The key issue here is legitimacy. As long HEZ has it, it will grow.

The only problem with this is, that if HEZ decides to attack again, do you think israel will sit and and wait to get murdered?

As i see it, we will soon have lebanon war III and IV and V.

Gaza will be heaven on earth compared to south lebanon.

So Sad.

peace_head said...

Raja,
i agree with your analysis.
i can also laude you for forward-thinking.

i think that israel is looking for a PR-achievement right now, perhaps the killing of a high-profile HA member. probably mugnyih, nasrallah or naim qassem.
(we all know this will not ruin HA, but it will be enough for israel to save face).

and here's to forwards thinking, i have a suggestion which i think is constructive.

lets assume i'm a (lebanese/israeli) citizen. considering the situation and limitations... what should i do? what should i write my PM, that could bring about peace in the area? what can i do to prevent more killings now? to prevent more killings later?

everybody is invited. people from the rest of the world an make suggestions to both sides. suggestions will be argued about or explained to be unrealistic prospects.

this may lead to a civilian policy which is acceptable. if it has enough merit, perhaps leaders would listen.

i think this needs a post of its own. don't have a blog yet...

Ofer said...

Raja,
I agree with most of your post. There's just one thing you didn't think of. If Israel manages to kill Nasrallah, it will be a fatal moral blow to Hizballah, and thus a victory for Israel.

Dimitry said...

Moreover, who knows if Hizballah will even play along.

Huh? Everybody knows. They won't.


Lebanon can rein in Hiz. You kicked out the Syrians, and they were much bigger target to tackle. But until that happends, Lebanese would keep dying. Israelis too, but on smaller quantities. And if this war brought popularity to Hiz in Lebanon, there's nothing Israel can do for its safety except bomb your country to the ground every several years.

z said...

For the Canadian one above for Mtl news paper

Mr. Harper,
I congradulate you on your position towards the middle east crisis.
My concern though is the crisis we are now facing in Montreal.
today is Sunday and I am unable to get to work in downtown Montreal because the lebanese are monopolizing the downtown area. Their flags are to be seen for miles in this beautiful city that used to be Canadian.
All these so called canadians who came back to this province are imposing themselves, their culture and hatred towards the western world.
Is this where my taxes are going?
Myself and my husband are business people working and trying to make a living in the downtwon area. We pay city taxes to contribute to the wellbeing and to make this city prosper, but when all I see is the lebanese flag everywhere and slogans I am disgusted and questioning why am I paying so many taxes.
We are first and foremost Canadians, our origins come in second. I dont see any other ethnic group imposing themselves in such a disrespectful way.
Can you please tell me why they allow themselves to impose their miscontent amongst other things like this.
What has this city become?
No wonder the economy in Montreal is at such a low, where on the other hand the economy in the rest of Canada is flourishing. The immigrants in the rest of the country are contributing to the growth of this country.
In this province we are paying higher taxes so these people can manifest themselves in public, take over our streets, our parks and at the same time critizise you sir and your gouvernement.
Is this province turning into a Paris or other parts of Europe where the full fledged citizen finds himself the minority?
Please Mr Harper do something before it is too late.
sincerely a concerned tax paying Canadian citizen.
P.S. my money is staying in this province it is not being sent overseas to benifit terrorist groups.


So pls stop crying

z said...

For the Canadian are you sure you are in Canada? maybe the other one

Hi Everyone;
I just had to write this to get it off my chest. You may or may
not
agree with my sentiments however they are my opinions.

I was watching CBC news coverage this morning of the events
concerning the returns of Lebanese-canadians. You'll note I did not
capitalize the word Canadians when referring to these people as it was
evident by their comments that they consider themselves to be Lebanese
first and Canadians second. The more I watched the madder I got and I
ended up turning off the television.
A host of the returnees to Canada were complaining about the
Canadian Governments and it's slow response. Some of the returnees
commented that Canada should be ashamed of itself for it's slow response
in
getting them out. One person complained about taking 11 hours to get to
Cyrpress and also complained about the sandwiches that they were given.
I
was stunned at the ingratitude of the people being interviewed.
Considering the logistics involved in getting thousands of people out of
Lebanon I think the Canadian Government and other governments did well.
I got to thinking about the situation and came to the conclusion
that Canada now seems to be a land of opportunists, not opportunity.
The
only two people in my family who got a free trip to Europe were my dad
and
my uncle Charlie who were shipped overseas to serve in World War 11.
No-one asked most of these people to go to Lebanon so a free trip back
with minor inconveniences is a good deal. Better than being dead I
suppose.
Here is the deal. I will arrange to pay for a trip back to war
torn
Lebanon for any Lebanese- Canadian ingrate who agrees to the following.
If you feel ashamed of Canada and it's response you should renounce your
Canadian Citizenship, pay back the government of Canada for the free
services you received when you came here such as medical, dental,
education, job start programs, housing, ESL classes, business venture
grants etc. and for those going back to live in Lebanon give up your CPP
benefits ( a great many Canadians are ignorant about the programs your
tax
dollar is paying for). As I stated earlier Canada seems to be the land
of
opportunists. I wonder what the percentage would be of these ingrates
serving in our Armed Forces?
Now, you might view me as a radical and a bigot. That is your
opinion. The above is mine. I am one of many CANADIANS who are just
fed
up with the ingratitude of some and the milking of our government by
others. It's about time that people stood up and said enough is enough.
Political correctness is a way to stifle people from speaking how they
feel
and in some cases speaking what is the truth. Affirmative action is
nothing more than reverse discrimination. As I stated earlier I am fed
up
with the hyphenation of Canadian citizenship. You are either a Canadian
or
you are not one.
I intend on sending this letter to my M.P. and anyone else I can
think of. If you agree with me please pass this on, if not, then press
delete.
Mike Crawford

A Canadian from Winnipeg Mb

Omer (israeli) said...

Mike,

You are wrong. You should probebly check what democracy is all about. You don't want candain lebanese? dont give them citizenship. If they are already citizens, treat them equally. And they DONT have to support the goverment. That whats democracy all about. If you dont like democracy, you can move to syria.

And im not even lebanese.

Avrum. said...

Raja, you don't get it. As long as we get bombed, we'll fight back. If 700 dead Lebanese won't stop it we'll kill 7000, and if that's not enough we'll kill 70000.

3li- said...

Z-You can take your racist, ignorant diatribe to whatever little hole you crawled from.

These are, like you, tax-paying Canadian citizens who are expressing their freedom to speak about atrocities taking place in their country of birth. They are showing solidarity with their former country and the families and friends they left behind. How does that exactly take away from their Canadian-ness, or is it their ethnicity and politics you so detest?

Would you have objected to seeing Jews carrying Israeli flags and accused them of marring your beautiful Canada?

Omer (israeli) said...

Oh, by the way Raja, From the israeli prespective we didn't loose the ground war. The thing is, its only done with small forces. And Peretz said that there will be no "occupation", and that ground operation will remain small and limited (since the traumas of 1982 and 2000). In many ways, you can say Israel didn't have a chance to get defeated (therefore lost technicaly).

In Bint Jbel for instance, Most of the infrastracture was dissolved. Weapons storages were removed from there. and also electronic equipment made to ears drop on Israeli celluar phone. I don't even know if you were told this. Also the IDF even claims to have killed 200 HEZ soldiers.

But thats beside the point. Your analysis is correct. Just wanted to point out, that as far as Israeli media is concerned the operations was a sucses!!!
While we both know how stupid that is (since HEZ are still at large), Its almost as stupid that HEZ is winning the war casue of civilian deaths on both sides.

JoseyWales said...

peace_head,

what should i write my PM, that could bring about peace in the area?

Here's my 2 cents. Tell Olmert to drop 1/100 of what he dropped on Lebanon on Syria and this thing will be over in 3 days.

paxusatoo said...

nowhereman,

let me explain what winning means to them. They are willing to die for their cause, nothing is a loss. They may have shielded themselves behind civilians or not. Does not matter, the world sees now Israel as a civilian killer. Ahother point for them.
And then, the White House, doing nothing to stop Israel (not that I think the US has anything to do there, I don't like Irak story), now they have reasons to target America. Another ideological game they play. The whole Israeli invasion gives them the moral right to retaliate now or in the future. They are cowards, yes. But there must be somebody more intelligent than them to understand and prevent that. That is why Raja said they win, people in those countries are so used to this suffering ....

z said...

Al Ghadabulsaati

First this are not my “racist “remark this are right from the news paper

My “ little hole you crawled from” was Beirut, I was born in Beirut with nice thriving community

One night the came over at gun point and we had to flee just because we are Jewish so pls spare me with your richness if you like I’m just as refugee as the are but I’m here all the time not like must the have passport (Canadian) and the don’t live here in Canada and the do not pay tax

For your info.. so called Can Leb Canada had over 40.000 must compeer to the rest

And last I’m not BIGET I have friend Leb Christian because of my Lebanese back round

And we live in peace and your remarks are just RAICIST

Omer (israeli) said...

I want to repost my feelling on the qana massacre. I posted this on a previous post and i stand behind it:




I want to express my deep regret for the killings in Qana. This should never have happened. Yet it happens again and again (Qana 1996).
I think we can all realise that the war is useless. There will be no decisive winnings on either side...
The HE will not disarm, and the Israeli army did not get hit "severly". The casualtiy on either side are not enoght to change any kind of "Reality". Perhaps, the only "Reality" that did change is that of the lebanese civilians and to a lesser extent that of the Israeli's in the north of Israel.

The war, i useless and vile. Qana got me rethinking this whole mess. Israel wants peace with lebanon and war with HE, but as it seems it will get only war and hatred from both. Listen Israel, we dont need any more enemy's, we have enoght as it is, thank you.

I dont care how this war ends. Both Israel and HE are holding the lebanese as hostages. As both have the power to cease-fire at any time, give/exchange prisinors and stop the madness before its too late.
Israel has responsibility since its the one with hands on the trigger.
HE has also the hand on the trigger (towards Israel) and also uses civilians as human shield:

From bbc:

"As for Hezbollah, it has been firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas and the UN Humanitarian chief Jan Egeland has accused it of using civilians as cover."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5229834.stm

Kofi annan stated:
"There is strong prima facie evidence that both [sides] have committed grave breaches of international humanitarian law"

The Hezbollah claims to represent Lebanons people, yet it brought on only destruction. They are guilty, for continuing this mess.

Israel uses its war planes in civilian areas, what did we expect? Qana II was only a matter of time. You can't bomb civilian areas without killing civilians.

I myself belive it was a mistake. To anyone who thinks wars can be "Clean" only needs to look at 1991 when the americans mistakenly bomb a shelter in iraq, killing 400 civilians.

As for "Hezbullaos bombed the building after 8 hours" Or "Hezbullos placed the dead underneath the rubble" are all just Bullshit conspiracy theories. They are no better then other conspiracy theories like "The israeli soldiers were captured inside lebanon" or the "zionist conspiracy".

Point is, everyside trys to bring in theories to hide his own SHAME.
Qana is shamefull.

z said...

Omer

Nicely said thank you

Z

paxusatoo said...

well said omer

Lirun said...

Hi Raja

i ask the same question.. and it's clear that there will be a lot of work for everyone to do in order to clean the place up.. and it wont happen overnight.. but i think its important not to lose hope.. because in our region often the smallest gestures travel the furthest and the slightest delicacies can rule supreme..

i think it is vital that we continue seeking peace.. lebanon has proven its resilience to the world.. war torn and ravaged - it came leagues ahead of many other nations and demonstrated its resourcefulness and splendour.. it will rise.. i have no doubt - to greater heights than ever

investors will again appreciate your smarts and your talents and your country's gifts.. they will return provided we architect a sustainable solution.. tourists will flock to see your land and you will again begift to the world your unique culture cuisine wisdom sophistication and return to be the champion of political reform in the middle east

once we have peace our business people will find ways to work together and our environmentalists will look to preserve our beaches from the pollution.. your school kids will have annual trips to jerusalem and israeli yuppies will ski on your snow fields and rent holiday chalets in the surrounding mountains..

i dont know what it is i eat or drink (i certainly dont smoke) but when i think of lebanon i dream past the horror and see a peaceful eastern mediterranean with lebanon its proud green mountanous jewel standing tall to the envy and admiration of all..

z said...

Lirun

That is beautiful alvei inshallha

Z

Itai said...

This message is intended for people with your line of thought and not to the good people of Lebanon, if there are any left:


Remeber Lebanon on July 12 2006, remeber where your government and stupid, arrogant, childish Nasralah brought you. Remeber what happens when you mess with Israel.


I think your analysis is utterly wrong. Victory in war is measured by the ability of each side to achieve its declared goals. Israel has no intention of holding Lebanese ground despite what Lebanese and HZA propaganda tells you day and night. The IDF incursions intent to kill as many HZA as possible and demolish their bases and bunkers and so far its doing a great job at that with minimal losses to IDF side and hundreds of HZA guerillas dead though they are very "shy" to admit to it.


HZA headquarters and symbol of power in Beirut is in ruins and you know this better than I. Nasrallah hides like a mouse and rubs his palms, looking at the destruction and death he brought on your people just to mobilize their hate and anger for the benefit of Iran. If HZA gains control of your politics you are going to live in a fanatic fundamentalistic state in the image of Iran. Outcast by the west as part of the evil axis, back under the Syrian yoke. Some victory.


Other then that what did Nasralah achieved? The destruction of his infrastructre and people.

And for what? To release Samir Kuntar, an animal who kidnapped a father and his 4 year old daughter. Murdered the father in front of his baby girl and smashed her skull with his rifle butt. A true Lebanese hero. Your nation as a whole deserve what it got.


We don't care so much about your fate, we care about ours and one goal we certainly achieved: HZA might not be disarmed but from this day on sponsoring it will cost you dearly. It's established by your ruined roads and villages.


You are right it's not over yet. A full scale ground assault is at HZA door and more destruction at Lebanon's. Till you take responsibility of your country.

I predicted this outcome all along
(you can check my comments from 12 and 14 days ago) The growing support for HZA was expected because underneath your thin civilized skin lay the eternal hate for Israel. All you care about is who humilates who. This is your language and we taught you a lesson in it. Turned 1,000,000 of you into homeless bums, violated your soverignity with the greatest of ease, presented your impotence to defend yourselves to the whole world. We own your sky, waters and land if we please, we could crash you like a bug but we've been merciful. We don't hate you, you pissed us off that's all and so far you got just a little slap on your hand and you scream like babies to the world. Untill you get over your hate, disaster awaits your country every ten years or so. You started this cycle, you finish it by changing the tunes you sing. whining will get you nowhere.


Israel is here to stay, advanced, just and strong. We won't let your backward excuse for a country to terrorize our people. We mock your primitive tactics and weapons.

paxusatoo said...

itai, have a question

Do you really think you can measure every person in Lebanon by the rule of a handful???Honest question

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Raja

There are no winners in this war. only those who lose less and those who lose more. I am somewhat interested in your notion of Hezbollah victory. What kind of a victory is it? At the end of it all, when the dust settles on this conflict Israel would rebuild itself in a year, two max and Lebanon will be reduced to rubble. If this is victory, then excuse me, I want to be on the losing side. It could be that as you say Hezbollah will win but in order to do so it will sacrifice Lebanon.

Tal said...

Raja I totally disagree with your analysis.

I think Israel has done great service for itself, Lebanon and frankly the free world at large. Let me get into more details:

1. no matter how this ends - HA's foothold within inches of our border is over. particularly the "maginot line" of bunkers they built - this will all be gone by Thirsday.
2. HA sustained severe losses in its elite corps and strategic weaponery. I agree that it might not be long before Syria and Iran rearm HA.
3. there's a worlwide consensus that 1559 has to be fulfilled. NOW.
4. I don't buy the BS that HA doesn't care about Lebanon or Lebanese losses of all sorts in this conflict. as violence calms and people come back to their senses, the resentment most sane Lebanese feel toward HA will grow. for HA, as a political party in Lebanon, this means trouble.
5. HA learned that Israel is williing to fight hard when attacked, regardless of the costs. the HA arrogance which was based on Israel's withdrawl on 2000 is all gone.
6. HA's south Beirut capital is razed to the ground. nobody likes to fight from caves. ask bin laden.

so any way you look at it, strategically, HA lost on much more fronts than it won. so Israel didn't succeed in defeating HA altogether - so what ? who said it can be done to begin with ? and I really couldn't care less if HA say they won. I don't have any intentions arguing with someone that puts children on a rocket launcher as human shield. And as one Israeli jurnalist put it, HA will claim victory no matter what, as long as there's a single TV camera around to document it.


one final note for the record - Israel is a democracy governed by elected officials - civilians not generals. Generals do not call the shots. In fact the generals were surprised twice during this war - the first time when on the night of July 12 when Olmert and Peretz demanded a much stronger retaliation than the military originally offered, and the second time last week after the binat jubile battle when they did not approve the military plan of entering Lebanon on the ground at a much larger scale. Luckily our checks and balances system do seem to work.

shalom and salam
Tal

Chas said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Chas said...

Raja
I agree with your analysis.
I hope this means an end to the suffering of the Lebanese people but my feeling is that Israel will do more damage as it flails around looking for an exit strategy.
As to a way forward, perhaps it is too soon to talk about it but I have some thoughts.
Would it not be a good idea to try to persuade HB to return the two Israeli soldiers? Such a gesture now would certainly not be seen as a sign of weakness .. just the opposite in fact.
Israel has conspicuously failed to degrade HB as its military promised it could. Therefore it is extremely unlikely that contributors to any UN buffer force will allow their troops to be deployed without some sort of agreement from HB, thus further enhancing their profile in the region. The only inducement I can imagine which would allow HB to make such an agreement would be if the mandate of the UN force included an undertaking to protect Lebanon from further Israeli incursions and airstrikes. Can anyone envisage such a Mandate? (I cannot, though it seems to me perfectly fair and necessary).
It could be that an attempt will be made to deploy such a force without, at least, the aquiessence of HB. I can't see that working.
In Lebanon HB has gained prestige to such an extent that any deals with them will have to be on HB's terms. The people of Lebanon are (I think) very united right now, it may be that HB will be prepared to be "reasonable" in reaching an accomadation with the Govt. which at least gives the illusion that the militias are being brought under central control.
In Israel, people will have to come to terms with the failure of their military to deliver and with possible continueing insecurity on their northern border. Perhaps it is time for Israelis to ask some serious questions about the role of the military in their body politic .. is it a good idea to seek only military solutions? Is merely labelling your opponents as terrorists enough to garuantee the moral high ground? Maybe that depends more on your own conduct than how you label your enemy? And not merely your conduct in battle but how much you are prepared to work diplomatically and politically before resorting to the military option.
It may seem from what I have said that I have some sympathy for HB .. I don't, but the political ground is shifting and HB has to be dealt with as a reality and not an inconvenience that can be brushed aside as both the Israelis and Americans seem to still think.

The Middle East News Addict said...

To Chas

I agree with you that the UN will not issue a mandate to the extent that will prevent it from defending itself. They all fear that Hezbollah will use it to attack Israel and provoke conflict the way it did on July 12 and right after Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon. Vouching that Hezbollah will not attack is equal to posting bail to a man you know is going to do the crime. They are right to fear that. After all, the Canadian UN observer killed in the Israeli strike sent an email to UN HQ saying Hezbollah was using them to attack Israel

marc said...

"Avrum said... Raja, you don't get it. As long as we get bombed, we'll fight back. If 700 dead Lebanese won't stop it we'll kill 7000, and if that's not enough we'll kill 70000."

Raja, The sad thing is that HA c a n be eliminated, either literally or metaphorically, with the use of sufficient military violence and as long as one is prepared to accept tens of thousands of deaths. I hope that your country is spared that.

Itai said...

paxusatoo no. But only a minority sits on the fence, ask the Lebanese bloggers themselves. Most of them are not in Lebanon so they are not carried away by this wave but they see what happens to their people, I think Raja said so herself.

I live in the real world and in it it's national sentiments that count, it's the tribal identity that takes over in times of war.

The Lebanese national sentiment goes to hatred towards Israel. Look at the masses, hear what they are saying. It's inevitable, I see myself as a reasonable person but I'm not immune to such feelings myself. This is part of war and people in peaceful countries who regard this as madness and call for it to stop, can ask their parents about such sentiments in times of war and grief. It's not madness, it's human nature. 10,000 years of human civilization were always accompanied by wars in every nation's history. It's in our genes.


If you ask me about the innocence of those dead babies in Qana, they are as innocent as every child on this earth is, completely. So is the pilot who dropped that stupid smart bomb, he was saving innocent children in our side . Just another paradox of this world.


I apologize for getting carried away in my own primitive sentiments and national pride...

Media Tycoon said...

the whole situation is just messed up. can israel just stop fighting and be taken seriously?

on the other hand, can they continue to bomb and kill civilians and be taken serious?

hezbollah needs to give back the israeli soldiers to bring peace. i can't see them doing that though.

yuval from tlv said...

i think about 10-14 days from now
the israeli government had said that..

israel is destroying the HB infulstructure in southern Lebanon, in order for the joint armed UN forces to be able to rule this area without the need to destroy HB themselfs, cause they won't take the job, the UN declaired that already.

but it is up to you Lebanese people to show your reluctant of HB, and it's violence..

don't you forget the HB headmen already said - " after we finish with Israel, we'll take care of those who criticised us"

that's not a democracy.
they will not rebuild Lebanon.
they won't allow you to have a freedome of speech.

it is all up to you Lebanese, you've kicked out Syria for dictating you, but will you do it again with HB?

if you don't than Lebanon's future is darker then ever
you'll allow them to threat you, kill you, control you, and to use your country as a playground for Syria & Iran against Israel.

it doesn't matter how much you hate Israel.. if it the strong soverign democratic Lebanon that you seek, you should understand what up to you in the very near future.

those who don't speak their minds, will vanish in the darkness of extremers forcing their minds.

Itai said...

marc said...
"Raja, The sad thing is that HA c a n be eliminated, either literally or metaphorically, with the use of sufficient military violence and as long as one is prepared to accept tens of thousands of deaths. I hope that your country is spared that."



marc, no it can't, not with this generation. this is why:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1184wmv&ak=null

This is where it starts and this comes from egypts OFFICIAL educational TV. HZA stuff is much worse and they control a whole network of public schools in Lebanon and a TV station. If you want I can bring some of their stuff but it's really distasteful. It includes blown buses and mutilated bodies, that's what they feed their children. Israel has peace with Egypt...True peace indeed.

Omer (israeli) said...

Marc,

what you say may be true (it worked for the americans with the war with japan during WW-II).

But threatning lebanese of this will get you noware. After all why should they put up with this if they are getting killed?

many people in israel think that we are smart people. That may be true when it come to Hi-Tech. But look of our situation for the last 60 years. Is that so smart we getting killed everyday in buses and qasam rockets?
We should use our brains not might to bring this to an end. Militiry only gets you so far. While i do belive in a strong army (as we have no choice, to many people wishing our destruction), i belive we need to start finding other solutions.

ZiadM said...

Raja, I agree with you although I have to point out that Hisbullah has lost at the same time.

For radicals, hisbullah may have achieved this so called victory, but i think they have lost in the long run. Time will show that HA has caused deeper divisions and animosity in Lebanon.

Time will show that Hisbullah has alienated moderate arabs and moderate arab regimes, which will thus open the door for many future conflicts that may compromise the Hizb's strong position in the south of Lebanon.

I agree that Israel has (so far)lost, but a Hisbullah victory is only justified within radical circles. When they claim victory (and they will) it will only be a short sighted victory which will drown this region further in the abyss of conflict.

barroon said...

Itai said

waw ! a person can read hate to whatever not isrealian in each word and sentense.

barroon said...

Itai
waw ! a person can read hate to whatever not isrealian in each word and sentense u wrote here

Omer (israeli) said...

barroon,

Thats what war does.
It creates hate.

Itai said...

Omer (israeli), this sort of leftist whining is ridiculous. It comes from a place of denying reality denying the ambition of our enemies to eliminate our country.


Look at the state our people built while fighting for its survival for 60 years. we are 0.25 percent of our enemies population, we are 0.01% of our enemies territory. We have no natural resources. Our society absorbed immigrants 5 times its original size. we built the strongest economy in the middle east. GDP per capita 28th in the world and we have 20% Arab population who don't contribute much.

I guess you are "the glass is half empty" kind of guy.


barroon, I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should demonstrate it. If you are reffering to my despise to islamo-fscists who want to eliminate Israel then you are right

Itai said...

barroon, if everything that's not Israeli is your islamo-fascist society then you are right. I despise it.


I admire European civilization (well, most parts of it), I admire the American civilization. Also the Japanese, Chinese and a few others.

I watch fundamental Islam gaining power and I don't regard them as a civilization at all. Just a mob who appeared out of dark ages to haunt western civilization.

KSM said...

If the Lebanese really want this to stop, why don't they release the 2 Israeli captives and agree to stop shooting rockets into Israel?

I am confident that if they agreed to do this then Israel would be willing to stop the attacks. World opinion would be strongly for it.

What's keeping Lebanon from doing this?

My guess is that Hezbollah would see this as a defeat and their pride will not permit it. They would rather see Lebanon desolate and many more children dead than admit that what their kidnapping was wrong.

Hezbollah is responsible for the continued deaths of innocents, not Israel. Hezbollah started this, and Hezbollah is making it last longer.

barroon said...

Itia and Isrealian guys

there is a say : "if u install the base of a bulding wrong it will goes wrong even if u able to bulid it to seven heaven "
this is how ur niegbours look at ur country .
u can live and scream ur national pride .. u may kill HA to the last person ( which is not going to happen) u may finish this war and reach the golas u set ( which is so many observers doubt it ) but ur country will not gain peace.
this is something isrealian are not able to digest or understand that no war will bring them peace. maybe 5-10 years but as long as ISreal policy is what it is and was isrealian will not live in peace .
u might reply me.. may not.. i cant change how u see the world around u but i only can give u a picutre i see it from other side of wall.
HA is not ur worst enemy. the exterimies islamic ways still on the way to come.
anyway .. im sure u, IDF and all ur national pride is ready to take care of it in future.

its so sad to open this page and see ideas like urs and some of ur fellow citizens.

barroon said...

HA is not ur worst enemy. the exterimies islamic waves still on the way to come...

Lebnese Liona said...

Some of these responses are sick....

I am not posting my response to the Isreali people because they are the enemy and they would not understand. I cant blame them for their thoughts and opinions. But this is directed to every lebanese.


Here HB is sacrificing their families homes and souls for the protection of lebanon, yet to this moment I am sorry to say some of my fellow lebanese brothers still call Hezbula terrorist extremists.

What a shame,

FACT--- HB fighters were the most well behaved group of armed militia men in lebanon, especially when they could have done anything they wanted after israel was defeated in 2000. Isnt you guys who say that HB is stronger then the goverment itself? So what stoped them from taking over the country and imposing an islamic iranian rule!!

Can any of you christian and deruzz lebanese in Jabel Lebnan and Jounieh and Beirut say that you were ever harrassed by a HB memeber? You know the answer!!

FACT--- Isreal did not differentiate between innocent , resistance and UN in its slaughter in 1996

FACT--- IDF still does not differentiate between innocent, UN,and resistance in 2006.

FACT--- Isreal refuses to allow a neigboring country to grow strong because it will always feel threatened.

FACT--- HB already won this conflict no matter what Isreal acheives in the next days weeks months

FACT--- HB is a lebanese first resistance , is and will be part of the labanon now and forever.

SAD FACT--- Isreal retalaition is a way to revenge what happened in 2000 and make the southern lebanese pay the price for being the heart and sole of the resistance.

VERY SAD FACT --- If EVENTS OF QANA does not prove to you that every isreali has the NAZI symbol, the same symbol that committed the horrifying acts of the holocust stamped on their forehead then I dont know if anything ever will prove to you what they truly are!!!



nough said.

LL

Omer (israeli) said...

Itai,
I agree that there are about 100 million muslims who want to elimnate israel. I dont say we dont need militry.
Just that we need to use our brains more then our guns. I consider myself a realist, and i know the situation is though. I have no desire to let myself get murderd by fanatics, and yes, militry action is legitamite as long as it is for self defence.

HE is a gurilla army, as such it has the ground advantage. On the other hand, they dont have the ability to conquer even a small pice of Israel, let less send in a big army. They are not a real threat to our existance, but yes they are extreme and armed.
They lack fire power which the IDF is abundent with. there only hope is to hide and attack in small numbers with ambushes. they can only do that on their territory.

now i ask you? what have we achived? maybe tomorrow there will be 200 million muslims that wants us dead. I say army is a two way sword, you have to be careful how you use it. I dont agree with you that "Arabs hate us anyway", thou as i siad before, alot of them do.

We are surely not sympathized thou. So what? as long as it doesn't take us to war, that all i can hope for (as a reallist).

Omer (israeli) said...

liona said:
"SAD FACT--- Isreal retalaition is a way to revenge what happened in 2000 and make the southern lebanese pay the price for being the heart and sole of the resistance"

Not true. Israel responded to an unprovoked attack. And if you side with them, you don't really have a claim. War is dirty, If HEZ doesn'twar they shouldn't get dirty.

Israel did see HEZ getting armed in the last six years saying, ah, "they won't use it casue they are smarter then that". We have been "awoken" from a dream.

I respect your side, and understand it. But plz understand, That itai and dimitri does not represnt all of us.
On the other hand, our side fell threatend. So many ppl wanting to kill you. Would iran kill us if could? is Ahminjad peacfull?
As long as Israelis feel thretend they will fight (to the last drop). This is a reallity nither you or me can change.

barroon said...

Omer

Muslims dont want to kill jew/isrealian!
how done the holocost ? muslims ?
all the Europian nations ( who are not mobs and as ITAI respect them dearly ) where killing and immigrating jews from a country to another country.
muslims ( so called mobs by ITAI) entered these endless wars with jews ( who happend to be isrealians) when jews desided to immigrate to NEW LAND of Isreal from all over the glob

barroon said...

Omer

Muslims dont want to kill jew/isrealian!
Who done the holocost ? muslims ?
all the Europian nations ( who are not mobs and as ITAI respect them dearly ) where killing and immigrating jews from a country to another country .
muslims ( so called mobs by ITAI) entered these endless wars with jews ( who happend to be isrealians) when jews desided to immigrate to NEW LAND of Isreal from all over the glob

Omer (israeli) said...

I'll tell you.
about 750 civilians died on the lebanese side, and the numbers still rising.
On the other hand this is not a genocide. whats happening in Sudan is a genocide (quarter of a mllion people murdered). If IDF wanted, they could have murderd city after city. No leaflet warnings, just shoot. ten of thousands, prehaps hundreds of thousand could be dead. That would have qulified as genocide.
3500 Isrealis died from sucide bomber attacks, does that qualify as genocide? we can get hit 50 a time, is that not genocide?

Isreal action is to hit HEZ. politicaly isreal has everything to lose. Civilian casulties are not good for the isreali side.

War is never "clean". If we bomb civilian areas, we are bound to hit civilians, but thats not the main purpose, however it may seem to you.

750 is a high number, yes. I wish it wasn't so hight. But plz, its no a "holocust"

Omer (israeli) said...

barron,

"entered these endless wars with jews ( who happend to be isrealians) when jews desided to immigrate to NEW LAND of Isreal from all over the glob"

Still stuck there? i'll tell you what. Its relevent, but if both sides respect the other their should be no problem to achive peace (eventually):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZuU5P2YtEM&search=hezbollah


catchy tune a?

peace_head said...

joseywales:
i never said i was israeli. i sent this question to both sides.

but here's, for a start, an explanation for the complexity of the situation.

1. no one knows for sure whether israel can run a war in all its fronts, if they add syria to the mix. but lets assume israel does, and considers it possible.

2. no one knows for sure what effect will such a move have on assad's regime. but lets assume it puts it in enough danger to warrant some action.

3. no one knows for sure that any action would cause HA to drop their weapons, or that the syrian army would even obey such a command from assad.

4. and that's before we haven't factored iran's response and involvement, both to syria and to israel.

in short, i feel this is prone to create more problems than to solve problems. as much as i believe assad has no value for human life as much as his father did (el-hama, hariri and the cedar revolution martyrs), this is not the way. especially since assad jr is much more prone to international pressure.

to LL:

HB needs to provide good answers to the people of lebanon.
what good does it do lebanon to have civilians die in haifa?
does it protect lebanon in any way?
does it stop israeli air strikes?
and who's going to guarantee that they don't slowly act forcefully to shut voices that oppose HB?
the risk to lebanon is great. greater than what the israelis are. and i'll tell you why. israel can carpet bomb lebanon all day long, but that will not destroy the country. an HB coup, if it hasn't already happened, will. it will bring back the civil war. already HB is not under command of the elected government, but rather does things out of its own interests. who's to tell what happens when these interests collide with interests of another sect? or of entire lebanon?

why didn't HB wait until after the tourist season?

these are mighty good questions that need mighty good answers. and these questions need answers now, to make a chance for negotiations to end this madness.

Itai said...

For some reason both Israelis and the world view Israel as the center of all of this. While 500 people died in our little war 2,000 people died in Iraq's civil war, who knows how many died in Sudan. But who cares when Israel isn't involved.

There are two main models to Arab regimes. The corrupt dictators and the fundamental Islamic countries. Sometimes they combine both like in Saudi Arabia.

barroon, look at your retarded countries and failed economies. Check the facts about Israel. The foundation of our country were set wrong? Your countries are collapsing.
The reason you hate Israel is the reason you hate the west. Envy when watching their success and humilation in the face of past Islamic glory and its current retardedness. Some of Europe fails to see it yet. Spain burry its head in the sand in the face of Islamic claim to parts of their country (Andalusia) and the massacre in Madrid.

I believe the moderates in the Arab world who Pursuit modernization and liberal values might fall. Islam rise is inevitable and not because of U.S. policy. Because muslims inferiority complex is deep, because you admire the terrorists who slaughter civilians. Maybe after the BIG war the Arab world will look at a new era. Sad for Israel because it will take a lot of heat.

aldara said...

You Israel will never leave in peace because you are trying to destroy the middle east. you have problems with all the countries around you. everybody hates israel in these area. you are killing palestinan people day by day. Do you think you will ever be in peace????.-

Here in Spain, all spanish support the palestinan and now lebanon.

we cannot understand why Israel is trying to kill everybody. Maybe you are in a land that does not belongs to you, and most importand , you are in a land that you take from the palestinan and now you does not even want to share it a little bit with them.

I am fed up that in some countries you cannot say anything against israel because they suddenly remind you the Holocaust.

You Israeli people, The holocaust happened, and we are still feed sorry for all the jewish who died, also spanish who support the republic died in holocaust. But It happened, it is finished, we should try something like that never happend again, but you... you are doing your big holocaus agains palestinan, against lebanon, against all the people in the middle east.

Here in my country, also the prime minister and people from the government has said that israeli government is a killer. All support this idea.
there were a big demostration last week in Madrid. thousand of people supporting Lebanon and people sufferering over there.

If you does not want that the rest of the world hate you Israel, stop killing people.

An spanish woman from Madrid.

barroon said...

Omer

ppl dieing every where in every conflict ,thats correct. but in this page we are arguing about lebanon-Isreal war. otherwise we can talking about Indonesia military bombarding Indonesian militance yesterday!

u know one of the areas that haterad forms and begin is where PRIDE NATIONS believe that some lifes worth more than others and well being of their PRIDE NATION is only and last priority .
take a second . imagine if in one suicide bomber 30 Israeli children die or in one HA rocket 30 Israeli die what u gana call it among u?


yes , this is a war and isreal want to win it in a way or another.
some of isrealian say that Israel have a solid peace with Egypt. i doubt they listen or read Egyptian media or have a slightly idea what a egyption person in street is saying . " ekhwan el moslemin" the very same organization who assassinate “Sadat “ and been strong in Egypt is now growing more in parliament and main stream gradually ....
well i better go to bed..im sure u all know politic and WELL INFORMED by ur media and FOX news ! hehe

barroon said...

ITA
again, here the issue is this war. im sure if u visit a iraqian blogger commentors have diffrent idea

Omer (israeli) said...

baroon,

What do you think Israeli's would think if offred true peace for return of all occupied land (Israel borders as declared by UN in 1948)?
Let me tell you, more then most Israelis would jump on it, blinded with euphoria. This is very true.

I know our neibours dont like us:
this is from egypt, aldara this is for you too:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1184wmv&ak=null

Neverthe less, we hadn't had any trouble with egypt and jordan since we signed peace. And that enoght for me. For now.

Did you know that Olmert was elected on the basis of a withdraw from the west bank?
Yes, after the evacuation of gaza, People voted for Olmert to finish the job.

So what has Israel learned from withdraws without any agrement?

Isreal withdrew from lebanon. But has been attacked 5 times since.

Isreal withdrew from Gaza, and we got attacked from gaza. fact is weve beem "abosrbing" qasam rockets being sent from gaza from the last 5 years, and it only intestified after that.

So i think Israel learned that we must withdraw with an agreement. It doesn't mean they like us.

But who are we dealing with?
Hamas- calls for the destruction of israel and is ready to agree only on cease-fire. They openly declare they want the destruction of isreal.
Does anyone think we just sit by and watch ourselfs get murdered?
The Pl's problem must get solved. they will get the 67 border, syria the golan hights, lebanon "sheba farm" (or syria). But it won't happen till the israeli feels themself secure.

In south africa lived a great man: Nelson mandela, do you know why he sucsided?
Becasue he could appeal to the whites that they will get murdered after freeing the blacks. He could consilate the blacks into layin down violance for peace.
Is thats how the Hamas is acting? is that their ideology?

And if you speak about our agression. what do you want us to do? wait while we get bombed? the last week, no less then four sucide bomber got couagt on the way to their mission (killing civilians), with the explosive belts on. Now we all know it will happen eventually, sometime soon one of them will make it, and kill us, murder us. What do you accept us to do??? wait, and let them do it? Do you think we like being aggresive? Do you think we dont die in wars too? Do you think we like dying in wars?

Most israelis feel today the occupation as a burden, but they will not give it up just to get murderd in the end. We need a little more assurance then that. Think of it, from the west bank and gaza ALL of israel is in rocket range.

We need assurance for our safty, we will not jump to the sea while ahminjad is claping. I'm Israeli, born in Israel 1976, I have no other home. My family, friends, work is here. If ill have to defened them, i will.

Ami Grossman said...

Sadly, Raja's analyis is so true.

I think that for western people, it is very hard to understand how the results can be counted as Hezbolla victory. After all , hunderds of Lebanese people died, the economy got destroyed, the infrastructure returned 20 years ago...

That is the tragedy of the muslim arab world: Confusing reality and fantasy. In a place where Bin-Laden or Saddam Hussein are considered heroes, death of hunderds is a "victory".

aldara said...

Bin laden or saddam husseis.. people did not elected them...
but you look into your own country.
you say that you are a democracy..you elected ariel sharon....
ariel sharon is not one of the killer of the history?

shall we just start in Sabra and Chatilla just as starter..

Israel people, I know and I can understand you most of you were born in israel, your family your work as Omer says is there and you want to keep them

but do you not ever though about palestinan people?. they were there before most of israel came. it is also their land. but you do not leave them they live in peace, they can work... they have nothing..
when you have nothing, when you cannot loose nothing...do you find it very difficult that palestinan people support hamas?. they have got nothing in these last years....

Israel you have problems with lebanon ( you invaded them in 1982 also), you have problems with siria, iran etc etc .... nobody can support you.


all western people so wrong?

Fares said...

Kazem my hero
PEACE To Lebanon

tony said...

I wish the Labanese people will go unarmed to the south and stand on the border like in Tiananmen Square. That would stop the ground forces and perhaps bring a cease fire.

Tsedek said...

~~~~~Hizballah has won - it is not going anywhere, and its losses are merely temporary.~~~~~


If the hizb is not disarmed, the lebanese army spread over all over lebanon, incl. the south - than there is no victory for Israel (and, in my humble opinion, it'll be Lebanon's loss as well) - However, I'm still hearing stern statements, that that is what Israel is after "for as long as it takes"......

So?

Tse.

GSH - Observer said...

Guys (all of you , both sides)
I don't know if you were paying attention to the news and to all the analysis being done... i was, and still doing just that.

To our Israelies Bloggers i would like to say Welcome...No...Not Welcome to the blog...but Welcome to the same place where we (the Lebanese) have been for as long as i can remember (and i'm not young).

Israelies have joined the Lebanese in being a "Tool" and a "Proxy" and as we say in Lebanese a "Towel"...yes a "Towel" that others use to wipe their dirt....

Iran and Syria decided that the USA can't play in the region without including them and inviting them to play along....or else "we'll show you that we can screw up the whole area", and to prove their point they insighted HA to do what it did, knowing exactly that Israel will not tolerate that.
as a result Isralies will suffer, Israel will be threatened, the USA will be pressured...and they'll be invited to play because the USA will realize that Israel is not the only Bully in the area.....and guess what?? the USA is up to its ears in the Iraqi mud, and their is nothing it can do about that and about the 2 new players in the region.As a result Syria will Get Lebanon back, Iran will go ahead with their programs and force its followers to come down...and everything will be great.

oh, by the way...we're expecting some casulties in bothe sides...just civilians, but this is not important now, what's important is the BIG GAME...teh Middle East.

to the Lebanses i say:
Have some dignity and get your country back...Lebanon should either be Lebanses or to hell with it...burn it...destroy it ...just like Shamshoun did....

to the Israelies i say:
wake up from your dream of superiority....you're nothing but a "Towel"...just like us. you might have a mighty army..but as you saw, and you'll see you're not going to win...none of us will. only the USA, IRan, Syria...and may be Saudia Arabia will; as for you and us we are nothing...background noise... people shouting and crying on TVs.
Wake up from this dream of supperiority and start looking for "Realistic" and "Lasting" solutions.

to all of you (Leb and Israel):
How long can you live like that?
Are you telling me their no solution ?
how come Europe with all it history of war (civil and religious) was able to unite and live in peace ?
how come the USA was able to become a prosperous nation in 200 years when it is the most Heterogeneous gathering of the human race ?

You are the oldest and most established nations on the surface of this planet, living next to each other for 4000 years and haven't got to leave like human beings, what is wrong with you?

If you can't tolerate each other and live in peace then you surely deserve a life like that, and that's what you'll get....WAR and DEATH....till you wake up.

Happy fighting

CMAR II said...

When the Lebanese rid themselves of the Hizballah parasites (a parasite that destroys its host and leaps from the body to murder those around the host), the Israelis will go away.

This invasion is what Hizballah's adventurism has made inevitable.

I'm sorry that the Lebanese government was unable (and unwilling) to rid itself of Hizballah. I don't think the UN will be able to either. The US is not willing to do it for Lebanon either as the people would only call her an occupier. So it is left to Israel to do a job for which the Lebanese ought to (but will not) thank them and do all they can to help them.

FGA said...

Raja, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT IN YOUR ANALYSIS!

The Israelis have made a HUGE miscalculation. I have always said that Israeli is usually very sophisticated when it comes to political and military decisions...but God bless Ehud; he has changed that dramatically! His insecurity about his lackluster (more like non existent) military background and his blind faith in George w are geopardizing Israel's very existence! Indeed, the Israelis are demonstrating how confused they are regarding what to do next and how to end this pandora's box of an operation. It is clear that Olmert is being encouraged by Bush, whose military record in iraq speaks for itself! :)

If I were Israeli, I would be pushing for Olmert's immediate downfall!

-FGA

Steve said...

Actually Lebanon and Syria and Iran have a simple choice. Accept Israel or die. Pick one. There are no other choices.

KSM said...

If the Lebanese really want this to stop, why don't they release the 2 Israeli captives and agree to stop shooting rockets into Israel?

I am confident that if they agreed to do this then Israel would be willing to stop the attacks. World opinion would be strongly for it.

What's keeping Lebanon from doing this?

My guess is that Hezbollah would see this as a defeat and their pride will not permit it. They would rather see Lebanon desolate and many more children dead than admit that what their kidnapping was wrong.

Hezbollah is responsible for the continued deaths of innocents, not Israel. Hezbollah started this, and Hezbollah's selfish pride, by preventing an agreement to release the captives and stop the rockets, is making it last longer.

marc said...

Omer (Israeli)-- "But threatning lebanese of this will get you noware." I wasn't 'threatening': just stating what seems obvious to me; when the devastation in Lebanon resembles that in Germany (or, as the other commenter remarked, that at Nagasaki and Hiroshima) in 1945, then Israel won't be assaulted from Lebanon.

Ariya said...

How long will Hezbullah need? How much more destuction do they have to direct towards Israel and innocent Lebanese people in order to "save face"... They have that "Arab pride" they have to protect, after all. Even if it means putting innocent children between them and the IDF, only to use those unfortunate enough to be killed as mere props on the world media stage.

Lirun said...

this is so typical.. random inciting slogans drowning out the voices of reason and peace.. the sad thing is you guys dont represent the majority.. you maybe represent the mobs and the heat of the moment but not the genuine wish of the majority - which is for peace - whether the acknowledge it or not..

furthermore - i doubt you even represent yourselves..

wishing us all peace without delay

lirun
telaviv
www.esmpeace.blogspot.com
relentlessly raising a voice for peace

ibn nagrela said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ibn nagrela said...

ironic accounting.

when zionist cowards justify the extermination of hundreds of innocent civilians in response to militants who originally and exclusively confined their attack to an israeli military patrol, such cowards spit on their shoah; regurgitating the same bile nazis used to justify jewish extermination, i.e., "self-defense."

when zionist cowards extend such bile to terrorize sovereign states & their populations, they are no less than genocidal terrorists; destroying any non-jewish state within reach to preserve their race-based racist jewish state, again, in emulation of nazi precursors who "decisively acted" to preserve their race-based racist aryan state.

basic accounting.

israel has nukes. nukes give israel the impunity & immunity to impose its genocidal will.

iran needs nukes. syria needs nukes. jordan needs nukes. egypt needs nukes. pakistan has nukes -- do they have enough to share? can iran accelerate nuke development in time to protect other muslim states from zionist "self-defense?"

because, evidence north korea, the more nukes the better. because, imitating zionist "logic," there is no such thing as insane or "disproportionate" response to threats real, imagined or perceived.

leverage accounting.

the eu is israel's biggest market, trading partner. with or without uk assistance, the eu could easily wipe the smirks from zionist faces. opec maintains similar leverage, which, when combined with eu leverage, could bring all 3 hegemons (u.s., u.k., israel) to their knees.

nukes, oil and tariffs. be like olmert. don't wait, don't stop. punish, punish, then punish some more.

Lirun said...

"genius" quote of the day

"stopping for the sake stopping.. it's ok.. but"

did this guy score his brain from the clown heads in a theme park?

some people have no idea what peace is at all..

wishing it relentlessly upon all of us

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
kids crying is an ugly sound

Lebnese Liona said...

to my Israeli friends,

I am 30 yrs old, my first 15 yrs I live in lebanon, I was 5 when the isreali invasion of labon happend in 1982. I spent my next 15 yrs in the USA. A country I love dearly, I am a US citizen, I even have jewish friends. I am or was the most moderate person in the world. At this moment I am seriously considering trying to find a way back to lebanon so I can join the resistance.

Here is the point , if your country made a moderate very educated person wanting to join HB, can you imagine what the average person or arab in the middle east feel like?

Do you understand what you have done, you made HB become the most popular group in the arabic and muslim world. THEY ARE DAVID WHO STOOD TO GULLIA

YOU CANT AND WILL NOT BREAK THE WILL OF THE LEBANESE PEOPLE, THE ONLY WAY TO PEACE IS THRU NEGOTAITIONS.

GIVE US BACK OUR LAND, PRISONERS, LAND MINES MAPS, AND WE WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE.

LL

Ariya said...

ibn nagrela, Hezbullah invaded a sovereign nation, killed 8 members of their military, and kidnapped 2. What would be an acceptable response? Do tell.

Ariya said...

Lebnese Liona, Israel gave back your country in 2000, and you let Hezbullah gain full control over Southern Lebanon.

How can you negotiate with a people (Hezbullah) whose stated goal is your ultimate and complete destruction?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Go ahead and join the "resistence". Don't forget to fire rockets from civilian neighborhoods.

When Israel responds to defend itself, don't come crying to us when some children in the house next to the area you fired those rockets from gets bombed.

Lebnese Liona said...

airya,

are you forgetting the STILL OCCUPIED LAND!!! SHEBAA FARMS

ARE YOU FORGETTING THE LAND MINDS

Give lebanon thier land back, and if you see HB try to fight then you have the whole world on your side, including mine!!


what is so difficult about this HB, exists because of isreal's invasion in 1982. leave the land the the problem will disappear.

WHY DO YOU GUYS DONT REMEMBER SHEBAA FARMS!!!

barroon said...

Steve

what u said " Actually Lebanon and Syria and Iran have a simple choice. Accept Israel or die. Pick one. There are no other choices"
works visa versa.
look an organization made by iran from 1000+ militance how operated in 3 weeks . imagine Iranian military which has 100,000 of these militant + 1,000,000 reserve.

eyal said...

Liona,
SHEBAA FARMS where belong to Syria, It was declared by the UN.
all the land which belong to Lebanon are at Lebanon's hands.
Next time before giving wrong information please learn all the details.
The shebaa issue was raised after Israel left Lebanon to the border which the UN decided and at this point HA didn't has any reason to continue his aggression against Israel so they declared that shebaa farms belong to Lebanon just to have a reason to continue to exist and you are falling in those lies.
PEACE & LOVE

barroon said...

u guys

as a person who lived in 3 wars since i was 5 years old untill my 30s in the Gulf rigion i will share some ideas , u might think about it , refuse it, argue about it or whatever.
If I was isreali I was going to push toward peace in every possible means I have and avoid any possible upcoming war and take Geographical place of my country even more serious .
Yes , ok . u keep say .. u will fight to last drop and u have no other choice . and im telling u if the real war start u might have to fight to the last Israeli nothing will save Israel . even the nuclear arsenal .
US. Can not and will not help u by dropping another bomb for sake of ur eyes , simply because he needs the oil which coming from this area and in all last three wars he was making sure not to attack oil instructors in the war zone ! plus there is a very well trained militance in iraq . if u heard of it “ Mehdi” and “ Bader” army . more than 25,000 solders + 10 milion angry iraqi of us troops who are actually tacking US troop as hostages in iraq !

Don’t think with all these screams and media iran needs to have nuclear program to produce nuclear bomb. Iran already has enough to fight back if he become target of nuclear attack . u think a country like iran was staying tide handed while Russia fall and his nuclear cases where in to black market by Mafias ?
Anyway… from opinion u post here I don’t see u getting the big picture . u just keep saying HA-Syria – Iran … IDF..we have …we can …we do … .PEACE… but u don’t realize how much its important to push US and ur self to stabilizing the region instead of seeking for conflicts .

U ppl really don’t get it that destroying HA and Lebanon war will not bring u peace ! u cant get it that Isreal

barroon said...

....U ppl really don’t get it that destroying HA and Lebanon war will not bring u peace ! u cant get it that Isreal is not going to be as strong as u think . u think bcuz u won ( we can hardly call it wining ) in fighting militancy and civilians !! here and there and arab army ( which is really not an army ! ) in decades ago u will able to win futures wars which is totally miscalculation

Ariya said...

Liona, Shebaa Farms belongs to Syria. Let them deal with it if they want.

Besides, I don't recall Hezbullah mentioning anything about Shebaa when they invaded Israel.

Apparently, you don't "remember" Shebaa.

As far as "leave the land and the problem will disappear", how so? What land do you want Israel to leave? Israel itself? Hezbullah is sworn to Israel's destruction. As a Lebanese, you should be fully aware of that. If I recall, Israel left Lebanon in 2000, and the UN certified it and said so themselves.

It's ironic how many keep saying "end the occupation and the violence against Israel will stop", when in fact, Israel hasn't been in Lebanon for 6 years.

They also pulled out of the Gaza Strip.

And guess where they are being attacked from? Lebanon and Gaza.

Israel still occupies the West Bank, and I haven't heard of any attacks originating from there in quite some time.

Imagine that.

yuri said...

Barroon said:

imagine Iranian military which has 100,000 of these militant + 1,000,000 reserve.

I try to imagine. HA (1000 ppl) sacrified their homeland just for killing 50 israelis and causing damages up to milliard dollars. (You know, during the war two israeli hi-tech firms was sold for almost $6,000,000,000) Now you're talking about 100,000 men that ready to sacrify their own homeland for killing 5000 israelis and causing damage equal to 75% of israeli GDP ?
Are they really so stupid ? I don't think so. They are smart enough when sending lebanese people to fight for their targets and interests.

Lirun said...

i'm confused by the double standards inherent in the criticism against israel..

personally i am pro peace.. i hate the fighting and i hate the devestation..

but i dont like the edgy rhetoric that comes out either..

israel is being called to order for various accusations.. almost all of which could also just as easily be directed to our neighbours and/or the hizballa..

so - i ask how long will all be the "wet towel" as someone put it yesterday of those who benefit from our shared suffering?

not only to the plant seeds of destruction and confusion but now they also have us fighting and dying for them..

i dont remember joining a terrorist organisation.. we are we all swept up in their conflict?

because during times of relative quiet (note the word relative) we neglect our duty to seek peace and build those "tunnels of friendship" that can undermine the infrastructure of hate..

we must build these tunnels.. everyone here on this blog is capable of speaking a common language of understanding if they wish to..

we need to actively bridge this divide.. only then will we have a safe future in our region..

lirun
tel-aviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
we can defy the hatred

barroon said...

Yuri

as i said there is huge miscalculation from Isreal side. keep do the math the way u like to do it.
the same calculation that lead isreal to think war on lebanon will not take more than one week or two , the same calucaltion which think destroying evantually will lead to winning the result.

dunes said...

the war hasnt even begun and lebanon already 800 ppl short
israel dont care about the inflamatory voices calling it a murder becuase no matter what israel will do all arabs and all racist europians will call israel a racist country.
i wonder why raja looks for the winner in this situation, from wher im standing all that happend so far was that lebanon lost - there are no winners in war just losers and the biggest loser is lebanon.
nice objective analysis raja.

Muxecoid said...

Prisoner exchange is something that will never happen. Almost entire Jewish population, even left-wing, think that prisoner exchange is national humiliation. Should Olmert agree he will never reappear in Parlament and government. Leftists critiseize government for avoiding propaganda war before the real war started, ask why didn't we drop leaflets with Nasralla-snake just after March 14. But even Jewush leftists do not want caesefire now.

My friend is organizing demonstration near Russian embasy in Israel. Reasons: Russian rulers officially stated that Hizbukkah and Hamas are not terroristic organizations and Russian support for Iranian nuke. Burning Russian flag, "Putin and Basaev are one" and "Say no to political prostitution" banners are in program. Join.

Ergotelina said...

The New Middle East Map
Blood borders
How a better Middle East would look
By Ralph Peters

GeorgeBest said...

Thank you Israel for teaching the world how to hate Jews again.

Ergotelina said...

NO MORE WEDDINGS IN QANA

dunes said...

GeorgeBest:
"Thank you Israel for teaching the world how to hate Jews again."
the problem is that the world never forgot how to hate jews .
dont be coy

Mina001 said...

Are We all blind.

Hizbulla is the cancer among us.
Are you all got mad, looking for who win's...mmm....such a stupid male ego.

It is like a person that discover that he has cancer and he claims yes i will not deal with it since i am still strong but after a while the cancer wins it makes the all body collapse.

Wake up to reality.

Hugh Johnson said...

"Prisoner exchange is something that will never happen."

Muxecoid (what the heck does that name mean, anyway) - you seem to be completely ignorant of history. Prisoner exchanges have been going on for at least 20 years!! Hellloooo! Israeli prisoners number fewer than 10. Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners number more than 10,000 - who have never actually accused of a crime, most of whom have been behing bars for more than 20 years, ALL of whom are subject to Israeli law which legalizes torture (the only nation on Earth to codify such horrific laws).

Lirun said...

last night we discussed the issue of showing graphic photos.. my friend from beirut sent me photos today of half kids being carried out of wreckages.. i vommited my guts out..

it made me think of the guy who was hit while driving near haifa the other day.. the missile directly hit his car and it also made me think of the old dr that the hamas kidnapped when he went toget his car fixed and they burned him to a crisp in his car..

we saw photos of both cars in the media - but not the bodies.. i never saw the dismembered israelis who were lynched either..

i'm not sure why our screams are so much quieter than yours..

but i assure you that i seek peace not just for you but for me too.. i hate what is happening to us all..

hope this ends soon
lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
you'd almost think there wasnt enough pain on earth

barroon said...

Lirun

u think u r quiter !! how strange!
u r ready to bomb all over ME for 2 person who evantually will return to isreal. what is quiet about that !
u killing almost 1000 civilians in 3 weeks becuz in 6 years or 10 years u lost 3500 civlians!
im sorry where exactlly u r quiet ?!
i know u trying to be reasonable and peace seeker but what i erad between ur lines is far away from reason

barroon said...

It seems soon or later ISreal will try to pass a resalution in UN that NO ONE approch an isrealian more than 100 meters otherwise isreal have the right " SELF DEFENSE" to smash that person by a 1000KG bomb over head as a self defense !

Hugh Johnson said...

baroon - I think your "100 meters" rule might just be excellent! What we'll need to do is build a wall that completely surrounds Israel. Sort of like the wall they are now building except it will not STEAL the land of Palenstinians. It will confine them to the boundaries that the UN outlined in 1947 (a territory much much less than they now hold).

That way, everything's cool. We've isolated them from the civilized world.

thepoetryman said...

It is quite sad that the warring parites do not learn even from debacles such as Iraq. The war (occupation) with Iraq has turned AlQaida into a movement greater than ever dreamed and now this will, fortunately, improve the truth of Hizballah.

I thought you might enjoy this... THE MASK OF WAR

Mina001 said...

Are you kidding,
There is no law for torture in Israel.
It is not aloud.......
this is the disinformation you get from Hizbollah to justify there action.

Lirun said...

baroon..

you dont "read between my lines" - you are reading "into my lines" many ideas that are not there..

my point is that there is no monopoly on pain.. if you decide to ignore everyone else's and only attend to your own.. you will then suffer sever shock when they are finally fed up with their pain..

but screaming louder doesnt mean it hurts more..

however.. yes our pain does not receive the coverage that yours does.. no matter what its size and no matter how deep..

to be honest - i dont really care -i am not here to have a yelling match with you or to call you names - that doesnt bring back the dead.. doesnt heal the pain or correct any of the wrongs..

i am merely here to say that this violence is hurting all of us.. and that i dislike it..

the only way you can disagree with me is if you in fact like the violence.. so i'll leave it up to you to represent yourself.. and perhaps you can leave it to me to do the same for myself..

wishing everyone safety and peace to our region

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
peace can exist even where consensus doesnt

Hugh Johnson said...

mina001 - you are quite sadly wrong, my friend. Israel codified into law quite some time ago the legality of torutre of prisoners. You might be further interested to know that the then Attorney General of the United States, Paul Wolfowitz, wrote into the original drafting of the USA Patriot Act a torture clause modelled after in his words, "the Israeli model".

That clause was eventually removed making Israel the only nation on Earth that legalizes torture.

chen said...

hugh- u r sadly mistaken, there an intention to pass a law that
states that in the event of a "ticking bomb", for example if i know of a bomb that's about to explode in new-york, mild physical pressure can be administered in order to retrieve information to "stop the bomb", doesn't that sound resonble to you?

anyway that law was never submitted so..

yojik said...

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

Hugh Johnson said...

chen - I am afraid that it, in fact, is you who are wrong. Isreal has codified the legality of torture of prisoners. Your so-called "ticking bomb" legality is a very large grey area and can be interpreted in many different ways. Note this conversation with Wolf Blitzer and Alan Dershowitz (a Harvard Law professor and expert on Israeli law) that recently aired.

BLITZER: Alan, how do you know he referring to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed doesn't have that kind of ticking-bomb information right now, that there's some plot against New York or Washington that he was involved in and there's a time sensitivity? If you knew that, if you suspected that, you would say [to] get the president to authorize torture.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, we don't know, and that's why [we could use] a torture warrant, which puts a heavy burden on the government to demonstrate by factual evidence the necessity to administer this horrible, horrible technique of torture. I would talk about nonlethal torture, say, a sterilized needle underneath the nail, which would violate the Geneva Accords, but you know, countries all over the world violate the Geneva Accords. They do it secretly and hypothetically, the way the French did it in Algeria. If we ever came close to doing it, and we don't know whether this is such a case, I think we would want to do it with accountability and openly and not adopt the way of the hypocrite.

Salient point? "...we don't know, and that's why we could use a torture warrant". Please. Do you hear what he's saying? Do I have to spell it out? "Well, he MIGHT have some information that's important so, hey, let's torture him. It's legal. Yeah!"

Hugh Johnson said...

chen - an addendum (sorry, I forgot to add it to the previous post).

1) Read the quote carefully. Dershowitz says "...we could use a torture warrant". It is in place already!
2) Try putting a needle under your finger nail then tell me how "mild" that is.

Steve said...

Those in Lebanon, Syria and most importantly Iran, hopefully realize that if Israel is cornered and is truly close to being destroyed, they will unleash their nuclear bombs. If your total and complete destruction is worth your quest to destroy Israel, keep on doing what you are doing.

If you do not believe me, then the enemies of Israel are truly stupid. And I do not think you are stupid.

To save your countries, allow Israel to exist in peace. Your countries will blossom if you do so. Believe me or not, the alternative is more extreme poverty and possilbe ultimate destruction. Your choice!

Shalom,
Steve
headbeep@msn.com

Hugh Johnson said...

chen - sorry again but I just keep finding more information. This from the latest isssue of "The Jewish Week":

"In sum, according to Jewish law and ethics, torture in the context of war is no more problematic than death itself, and is permitted by the general license to wage war."

barroon said...

Steve

earlier today i responded to ur comment. i said isrealian must becarful visa versa b`cuz iran has nuclear suitcases (as they show it in hollywood movies) and that doesnt need more one suacide bomer to bring it to tel aviv. and if a bomb kills 500,000 iranian still there will be 60 milion and half iranian left. but unfortunaly in same case only 2.5 milion isrealies!

again and again im saying..Isrealian must do better calculation.

chen said...

hugh- u talked about israeli law and I also spoke of only that, not the american law and not jewish tradition.

barroon said...

oh ! not to mention the Geographic status which i
Isreal - Total 22,145 km² (149th)
Iran : Total1,648,195 km² (18th)

so when u want to talk about nuclear arsenal think first of survival of it considering the size of ur country and size of casualties u can tolerate.

Math darling.. math ! + a good plan before starting a war here and there !

Hugh Johnson said...

Further to the "Jewish Law" of war thing - it might be interesting for you all to further note that not only is torture allowed, but the killing of any member of a population that is considered to be your enemy also allowed. Any member. That, obviously, includes babies. This means that if HezbAllah is your enemy, and they are Lebanese, then all Lebanese are guilty. All. I am not kidding you. This is a Jewish Law of War.

Excellent, eh? We can torture them and we can plunge bayonettes through the hearts of 2-year-old babies. It's cool. It's the law.

Barbarians, I tell you. Barbarians.

Hugh Johnson said...

chen - I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN THIS OR TRADITION THAT. I AM TALKING ABOUT ISRAELI LAW.

Piano B said...

I can accept any opinion from israeli or lebanese people.

But I can't believe how americans are brainwashed.

chen said...

baroon the fact that u said that there r 3 million israelis,
alone shows that u r too ignorant
to write here.
go ahead write, racist bullshit and develop conspiricy theories as u have this past few days in your comments,
but at least get your numbers straight. u "must do better calculation"

1earth said...

Barroom, America nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed over 200,000 people immediately and another 300,00 people after the effects of radiation poisoning settled in.
That was just two bombs dude. Two old bombs.

Bombs today are 10,000 times more powerful than the bombs America used in WW2. And Israel has over 600 of these powerful bombs. Way more powerful than Iran's suitcase nukes too.

And it won't just be Iran either.
If Israel burns, so will Mecca, and Medina, Damascus, Beirut etc etc. Say goodbye to the top 600 Arab population centers.

And the earth's wind patterns will carry the fallout eastwards, spreading radiation sickness to every inch of the middle east.
Israel doesn't even have to respond for that to happen. The fallout of any nuclear explosion in Israel will land on the heads of the Arabs.
Generations of Arabs will be born already dying of all types of exotic cancers that nobody has any cures for.

barroon said...

steve

btw as u r here read this article ( The military’s problem with the President’s Iran policy.
) by "SEYMOUR M. HERSH" in the New Yorker . u might find it inlighting .

u 2 " 1 earth" read it

dunes said...

Hugh Johnson: torture is not legalized in israel the only diffrence between israel and the rest of the world is that israel made a rule regarding the mild perssure of source of info on suicide bombers , where as the rest of the world countries like iran UK Germany or any other country just act behidn the scene
and dont start about israel as we are more morall then any other country in the world.

baroon: all i can say israel is 7 million at least get the facts stright.
ps we are the only country in the world with missiles intercepting missiles technologie.

barroon said...

1 earth

waw.. how scary.. this is new ;) i didnt know that isreal had that much bombs ..waw.. i thought they only keeping candy and roeses on Demona base in isreal;)
m sure then isreal will have peace ;)

barroon said...

Dunes

I hope u used that " misslies technologie" againes HA rockets which u r complaning about instead of Jumping over lebanon like a mad elephant over a butter fly

chen said...

hugh- u said and i quote:
"jewish law"-- what is that?
is that israeli law?

israeli laws are made in the parliament not drawn out of the bible.

the discussion u brought refers to
the investigation of khalid shaikh mohammed (the terroist who mastermined the 9/11 atacks)
by the usa, and Dershowitz speaks of the american law.

barroon said...

Chen

if i go back through ur comments and copy some of them..it will be obvious who is writing racist bullshit . but since majority of readers here are isrealian it will be useless beside.. UN resulation for not approching any isrealian didnt come out YET

chen said...

baroon- i am always willing to listen..
show me what racist bullshit i wrote, and i will appolagize and correct my ways ,I promise.

Itai said...

Wow, I left for a few hours and this discussion became apocalyptic.

1. The U.S. and even Europe won't allow the madman from Teheran to get nuclear weapons.

2. If Iran did launch a nuclear missile Israel has the arrow missile system.

3. Even if one or two of their a-bombs hit Israel death toll will be in the hundreds of thousands.

4. At that moment Israel will erase every pop. center in Iran killing millions using thermonuclear weapons.

Atom bombs are measured in kilotons, meaning thousands of tons of TNT. Thermonuclear weapons are measured in megatons, meaning millions of tons of TNT.

5. If Israel won't do it then the U.S. will.

6. If terrorists will use an a-bomb against Israel, Israel will still erase Iran.


But like I said it's all theoretical since the U.S., Europe and Israel won't allow it. You think the French and Germans want a mad fundamentalist to gain hold of such weapons? Actually I don't believe 90% of the Arabs want it.

But let's stay positive...

Hugh Johnson said...

dunes - you are unfortunately unaware of what so many of us know to be true. I do not have the time to site the (literally) millions of sources of information pointing to the fact that Israel has, and continues to, torture its prisoners. One of which is a BBC report entitled "Israel Admits Torture". Give me a break.

Do me a favor. Do a quick Google search for "israel+torure" (without the quotes). You will return over SIXTEEN MILLION HITS, dune. Are they all wrong? Or maybe they're "misleading"? Or maybe they only apply to "America"?

And pulleeezzz spare me the laughable claim of how "moral" Israel is. How moral is it (to name one of but hundreds upon hundreds of FACTS, dunes, FACTS) to keep more than 10,000 Arab prisoners behind bars - most of whom are under "security" arrest? Meaning, if you don't know - you are not even charged with a crime, under 9-month multiply renewable sentences. Many of these prisoners without charge have been there for over TWENTY YEARS. Tell me about the morality there!

Let's shackle you and slam your butt behind bars for 20 years. And everytime you ask, "What have I done wrong?", the answer is, "You haven't been charged with a crime." Where is your vaunted Israeli morality now? Where is it?

chen said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
chen said...

hugh- see what u did right there,
instead of trying to prove me wrong, OR admit that u were mistaken because u can't.
u went after dune, why can't u admit u were wrong and THEN continue to make your arguments.
drives me crazy.

BTW- UK+torture = 20.9 million hits on google.

Itai said...

Hugh Johnson, I got 16,000,000 results on google about Jews doing the 9/11 attack so we probably did it.

Tortures are forbidden by law in Israel. "Moderate physical pressure" is allowed when it's a "ticking bomb". "Moderate physical pressure" means to deprive someone of sleep and other methods who don't cause serious physical harm (no electricity, pulling nails and teeth and other methods practiced in the Arab world). A "ticking bomb" means it can be used when a suspect holds info about an imminent threat to innocent people which there is no other way to get (like a suicide bomber on his way to a bus or school)

I think it's a moral and reasonable policy. What would you have your government do? And may I remind you that this is not a theoretical quetion, over 1,000 Israelis died within 3 years in such bombings (my 16 years old cousin died in a pizzeria with her friends). So you spare me the bullshit.

Itai said...

Hugh Johnson, you are either an antisemite or a hypocrite. I don't know where you are from but I have no doubt that:

1. In case a neighboring country to yours hosts an illegal militia who sits in that country's government and launches rockets on your major cities from within civilian towns your government won't wait 3 weeks like Israel. It will erase any towns from which rockets are launched, civilians in them or not.


2. In case suicide bombers explode on a weekly basis killing children on your streets, your government will turn to much more brutal interrogation methods than Israel to stop such bombings.

Care to prove me wrong?

But you go on and play the holy bleeding heart.

dunes said...

Hugh Johnson:
and as every one know every hit on google is a relyable source.....
10000 prisoners . - like samir kontar a person who enterd israli city nahrya from lebanon and killd 2 childern their father and a policeofficer ? was he wrongfully arrested ?
btw a year ago british police shot on the subway a young i think hispanic kid what did they do to show that they are morall ?
well they said they acted allright. and when i said morall i dont meen israel is completely free of mistakes but we at least dont cover them up like iran or
syria or the us or uk or every other nation on the world ?
if your so intent on justice why dont you say anything about the summer when jurdan killed 80,000 palastiniens ?
or the thousnds of people dissapeard in syria ?
btw every officer in the israeli army can look in the mirror and sleep ok.
it sounds to me like ur full of it.

dunes said...

Itai:
i think we all see where Hugh Johnson is going with this.

seeker said...

Cool I found More than 2 million hits on "Blue spotted dragons"
anybody wants to go and find them

We are all being silly here right ?

Red Domino said...

To Hugh Johnson:
"
Further to the "Jewish Law" of war thing - it might be interesting for you all to further note that not only is torture allowed, but the killing of any member of a population that is considered to be your enemy also allowed. Any member. That, obviously, includes babies. This means that if HezbAllah is your enemy, and they are Lebanese, then all Lebanese are guilty. All. I am not kidding you. This is a Jewish Law of War.
"

The bible is largely open to interpretations. and while clearly some jewish make such distorted conclusions, many jews do not, and some may not need to look in the bible to justify their immoral view.

I shouldn't remind you that Hezbollah rockets mostly target civilians, and are enhanced with metal balls to increase damage to body organs. appearently, Hezbollah follows the so-called "jewish law".

That of course does nothing to justify the targetting of civilian infrastruture by the IDF, but that results from ignorance and moral degradation in Israeli leadership, and has nothing to do with being or not being jewish.

Tal said...

to Hugh J and the rest of the legal scholars on this thread - here are few facts for you:

Jewish law is irrelevant - it exists for more than 2000 years and reflects costums of that time, and is rather advance and liberal given counteroarts form that period. In any case this is not the law of the state of Israel, which is totally secular. In essesnce the criminal law is based on English laws and jurisprudence, plus modifications enacted since Israel gained its independence on 1948.

as to "torture" - reasonable physical pressure is allowed in case of "ticking bombs". imagine you catch Muhammed Atta on 9/11 at 0700am. what in your opinion would be moral and ethic in terms of physical pressure in order to get him to talk on his fellow "freedom fighters" and thier aim ? imagine you catch the guy carrying one of the bombs to the Madrid train station on 3/11 - what would you do in order to make him talk ?

war on terror is nothing like ww2 or any other war between countries. it is a different animal altogether and we better all understand that we need different tools to deal with it.

barroon said...

Itia
1 - i hope so b`cuz we all hope as well that US keep the mad men in ISreal to lunch such attacks.

2-it seems u didnt read all the comments , no one here said that
iran will lunch nuclear attack..STEVE ( who is an isrealian) and couple of others suggested that Syria-iran and others must be aware that Isreal will attack them by neclear ..bla bla and thats where the argument started ( i will copy the comment if i find it between 134 comments !)

barroon said...

Steve said...
Actually Lebanon and Syria and Iran have a simple choice. Accept Israel or die. Pick one. There are no other choices.

Steve said...
Those in Lebanon, Syria and most importantly Iran, hopefully realize that if Israel is cornered and is truly close to being destroyed, they will unleash their nuclear bombs. If your total and complete destruction is worth your quest to destroy Israel, keep on doing what you are doing.

If you do not believe me, then the enemies of Israel are truly stupid. And I do not think you are stupid.

To save your countries, allow Israel to exist in peace. Your countries will blossom if you do so. Believe me or not, the alternative is more extreme poverty and possilbe ultimate destruction. Your choice!

Boaz Arad said...

Everyone knows that Hezbollah initiated a war with Israel in order to justify its status as a military "state within a state," billing itself as a defender of Lebanon against Israel—even while, far from defending Lebanon, Hezbollah is causing Lebanon to be torn apart. And everyone knows that Hezbollah deliberately operates among Lebanon's civilian population, cynically exploiting the resulting civilian casualties as propaganda.

barroon said...

boaz arad
it depends who u refer to as " EVERY BODY"

MalcolmX said...

Excrept:

6 Lies and Realities of Israel's Aggression in Lebanon

History is written not so much to understand the past but to shape the future. This premise usually holds when addressing the reporting about events in the Middle East. Most textbooks, for example, indicate that the Six-Day War was initiated by the Arabs and Israel pounded them in retaliatory strikes. But the late Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, said, In June 1967 we...had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. (New York Times, August 21, 1982). The same misconception in reporting is used today to justify Israels destruction of Lebanon. Furthermore, six lies are spinning the news in Israels favor to justify her aggression in Lebanon:

Lie 1: This war is between Hizbollah and Israel. Reality: Hizbollah members are not suffering any casualties. This is a war directed against the people of Lebanon. It is designed to break the infrastructure of Lebanon and destroy her peoples spirit. On April 19, 1996, the New York Times wrote, Israels goal has been to create an unmanageable number of refugees in Lebanon...to restrain Hizbullahs attacks. If the definition of terrorism is to attack civilian targets to achieve a political goal, then Israel is guilty of hi-tech terrorism.

Lie 2: Israel is retaliating against Hizbullah Katyusha rocket attacks into Northern Israel. Reality: According to a fact sheet from the Reuters News Agency; Israel was the first to attack civilians on March 30 and April 8. The three Hizbollah attacks on March 4, March 10 and March 14 targeted Israeli occupying soldiers inside Southern Lebanon. Prior to Israels attack of these civilians, both parties were abiding by the 1993 US-brokered agreement that only military sites could be targeted. Only after Israel massacred civilians in refugee camps did Hizbollah start firing Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel on April 9. The Israeli bombing of refugee camps, power plants, water reservoirs throughout Lebanon commenced on April 11.

Lie 3: Israel is acting in self-defense. Reality: The source of the conflict is the occupation of Southern Lebanon by Israel, a violation of international law. Resolution 425 of the UN Security Council, passed immediately after the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, calls for Israel to leave Southern Lebanon and the replacement of Israeli forces with Lebanese government forces.

Lie 4: Israel is intervening because the Lebanese Government is unable to control the situation. Reality: If Israel leaves, Lebanese officials have stated that they will send 35,000 troops to Southern Lebanon to keep the border secure and calm.

Lie 5: Israel claims it was unaware of the presence of civilians in a U.N. shelter it bombed near Tyre. Reality: The UN had informed Israel repeatedly about the presence of its shelter for Lebanese refugees.

Lie 6: Israel claims it needs to create a Security Zone in Southern Lebanon.. Reality: The reason Israel is in Southern Lebanon is to siphon off the water of the Litani river. According to a United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia, Israel was using water from the Lebanese Litani River, by means of an 11 mile tunnel it had drilled, as well as from Lebanons Wazzani springs. (United Press International, June 1, 1994) In Middle East politics, water has now become more valuable than oil.

These lies are generated by pro-Israeli propagandists for the sole purpose of influencing American public opinion. Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the Israeli Likud Party and candidate for Prime Minister in the upcoming Israeli election, said, ...an integral part of making a decision is addressing the question of how it will affect public opinion and what needs to be done to make its message more palatable and effective to international audiences...If public opinion was of decisive importance in shaping political outcomes during the first half of the century, it is now, as the close of the second half of the century, assuming an importance not even imaginable thirty or forty years earlier. (A Place Among Nations: Israel and the World, p. 386) The consequence of state-sponsored public relation campaigns like Israels is articulated best by author Henry Miller: The history of the world is the history of a privileged few

dunes said...

MalcolmX:
well counted 6 lies from you
1: every since israel withdraw from lebanon HB conducted attacks on israel. :when some one hits wha do u do ? .
2:in 1996 HB broke the 1993 agreement and HB attacks civis not israel.
3:in the israel withdrawal from lebanon the un declared israel withdraw from all lebanese land.
4:the whole situation started becuase of attacks from hb , and the lebanese cant control south lebanon by themslef u can checkin reuters.
5:HB attackas using Lebanese and un civis as shields look for the testemonie from the candian office that god killed
6: plain lie the status of the water situation in israel is the best in all the last 15 years.
these lies are genrerated by shamless liers or shuld i say arab liers.
have a nice day.

root cause said...

malcomx.... wow! you have it all figured out don't you?? that post was so full of holes and the same propaganda you claim israel issues.
First of all on your "lie #1" you quote the completely unprejudiced NYT....LOL...good source!! And Hez hasn't had ANY casulties..too funny.

"lie #2" please post your fact sheet from Reuters. What year are you even talking about here. And I guess the 257 UN observers either killed or injured in the last 6 years were Israeli induced as well. cmon dude...do some fn research

"lie #3" paaaahhhleeeeez Israel has been out since 2000 u moron. If not I really think the anti-israeli UN would have screamed from the mountain tops...dam dud...get a clue!! and i love how some ppl quote the UN when it is convienent for their specific argument. u want to discuss resolutions...what about 1559?!?!?!

"lie #4"....please quote your source. I have not heard ANY report from ANY lebanese official send troops to the southern border. Does Lebanon even have that many (non-hez) troops???

"lie #5" hear again...state your source.... ur as bad as the NYT!!

"lie #6" I will have to check out this one....this came from left field for me. even if true, 1 of 6 aint real good. your post was FULL of lies tho....lol entertaining read i guess.

And before you go off on some rant about me perpetuating the "Isreali Propaganda Machine", I am not jewish, and have no stake in either side of these horrible events. Just trying to understand both sides and like many ppl here looking for peace and stability in the region.

Ami Grossman said...

malcolmx,

I can hardly believe that you believe your own lies. I suspect that you are a poor victim of long brainwash...

I'll try to refer to each one of your lies:

1.Israel war is NOT with Lebanese people, but with Hizbolla that attacked it without any provocation. It's true that many civilians do get hurt- but the blame is on the terrorists who hide inside civilian population. They aim their missile at civil population. They are glad when they succeed to kill.

2. You are trying to throw many details in order to hide the big picture:
Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago!!!
Hizbolla had no reason or excuses to kidnap Israeli soldiers or kill others. Still , Israel did its best to ignore these provocations during 6 years!!!
Israel did NOT want to light the burning- Hizbolla did that. If you disagree- I'd like to hear what you think about it.

And once more: While Israeli soldiers are located in well-defined army posts, Hizbolla finds shelter inside the villages, and by doing this , it puts all the civils under big danger.

3. Did you do "cut and paste" from an old publication? Can I be more clear?
Israel left south Lebanon 6 years ago! . What "occupation" are you talking about?

4. Israel said in every possible way that it wants Lebanon to send its army to the south. Lebanon has not done it 6 years, since the Israeli pullout. There was a good oppurtunity after Syria army left Lebanon, but it was missed.

5. I am not sure what you refer to. If you talk about Qana, Israel did not know that there are people in the basement.

6 Israel does NOT want to form a "security zone" - it just wants that the area next to the border will be free of Hizbolla- to avoid future provocations.
And your argument about the water is ridiculous. Do you know how much money the war costs? With a little portion of this money, enough mediterrean water could be de desalinated and there will be enough water for Lebanon,Israel,Syria and Jordan.

You just have to abandon your prejudice, and free yourself from the Iranian grasp.

marc said...

Hugh Johnson-- I point out that Paul Wolfowitz is not and has never been Attorney General of the United States; it is true that he is one of the demonized "neo-cons".

seeker said...

If somebody calls you a lier, you really think s/he will cede to reason ?
it's a waste of time to reply.
Those that want will believe it regardless of your answers
others will use their mind and see the flaws in the structure and reasoning.
Conversation/Information does not start with blaming people nor with demonizing them.

this web site used to be intresting source of information
it turned to be soooo petty.
sooo sad.

Lebnese Liona said...

TO ALL THE ISRAELI MISINFORMED ,

I WILL TRY TP PUT THIS IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS, READ ON:


Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

Sould I continue, this by the way was a report by the christian science monitor and not my own imagination, you can go to their website and check it out.

Personally, I no longer care to negotiate with you isreali's . I think we should continue fighting untill one of us is wiped off the map !!! Dont care who either , lets finish this like they used to do in the old days, no more TALK!!

You people are blood thirsty, land robbing criminals. ActuAlly the word criminal is not doing you justice. You are more like SCUMB

And by the way you are racist also, you are the only group that would not allow people from another religion to marry one of your own. So who is the RACIST NOW!!

aldara said...

To Tal
I am from Madrid, and when bombs exploted in the trains, people just out out on the streets and claims justice. we wanted the guilties, a big demostration all over spain was made. millions of people said " not to the war" relating that our former government supported us and uk in iraq war and most of spanish did not want that.

our governenmet does not listen to us, and in the next election hold some days after we elected other political party.

In the demostration agains the madrid bombs people claim justice, but we did not say that all arabs were terrorist, we did not say ok... some of you have killed us so now we are going to destroy all arab countries because some arabs attack us.

and tal, there is no torture in spain.

so please do not compare spain to israel. although we have many problems and we have to learn a lot we are not killers. that is why people in Spain hates Israel at this moment. Even I remember in these days after the bombs that jewish comunity appears in the newspapers saying that arabs were the cancer of our society.... that is the way you try to calm down ......

Dimitry said...

LL, did your sources also mention the countless attacks carried out by Hizballah against Israel in the last six years?

Fighting Sullyvan said...

This one is for you Lebnese Liona


Brigitte Gabriel Speech at Duke University

Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out



I'm proud and honored to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.


I was raised in Lebanon, where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.

It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.

>For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments.. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel, that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allahu Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.

I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.

One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem, Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: "it is not your fault". We just stood there crying, holding each other's hands.

What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism verses civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.

Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle".

However, once such behavior is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.

Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.

They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation". Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.

On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of "occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up, and support and defend the state of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism.

MalcolmX said...

LEts make this clear. why are you so offensive Israeils. You dont wanna even let the other side express their views. Anyways, the comment about the lies is an excrept for your knowledg. OK.

Plus, i got it. you know what i mean. One comment of one of the israeils is pretty enough to explain everything. But what you said is not convincing me..I dont know why but be more creative. Ok.
Lol you are freaking impulsive. Calm down, seriously im just trying to post what appears appealing, if not for you israils ..maybe for other members of the world. You got It..root cause?

HAVE FUN!!

MalcolmX said...

Fighting Sullyvan. Kind of convincing attempt. BUT i know from the bottom of my heart that U R NOT A LEBANESE. So be strong and speak like any israeli in this blogger. Arabs know israeils and after all the sorrow in Palestine. NO oNE would believe that israeils loved palestians, (im talking about palestine right now(kinda of read thier histor so far and how israelis occupied palestines)) ok. yeah so be brave and dont try to divide the lebanese by saying the whole reason is the ARABS THEMselves.

seeker said...

MalcolmX I will deign you with a response, alebeit a short one.
On the internet as I prooved before I can find excerpts that birds talk without proper explanation it means nothing
Offesive 'is calling someone a lier' this is not expressing your views this is done to antagonize and pull others to a meaningless conversation.
Count me out.

Lebnese Liona said...

FIGHTING SULLIVAN,

ARE YOU ON DRUGS!!!!


DUDE WAKE UP AND SMELL THE STINK AROUND YOU CALLED THE STATE OF ISREAL!@!!

The entire world sees the crimes that isreal is committing daily.

You as a nation are at your weakest point in your existence .

No wonder the prime minister thinks that this is a fight for the state of isreal.

Thats because if you dont win this one , the entire arab and iran is going to see how weak you are.

THE ENTIRE STATE OF ISREAL WAS FOUNDED ON THE BASIS OF KILLING THE LOCALS AND TAKING THEIR LANDS.

See to me the palestinian story is no different tthen the indian american and the white man in the US.

The indians were happy to hit the bottle and give up the fight, but I guess in this case the palestinains refuse to give up.

So what you have been doing is genocide hoping that if you wipe them out you will have no one to claim their land.

Dont sit here on this website and preach to me about how peace loving people you are. Your own books preach hatered!!

Thats why I say , lets end it now, all out war , does not stop untill one is wiped off the map. Lets see if you can bomb over 2 billion muslims and arabs out of existence!!! Cause they are coming after you , I promise, maybe not this year or the next , but they are coming, they are sick and tired of your INJUSTICE!!!

dunes said...

MalcolmX:
are you an idiot or intentally ignore the first lines that Fighting Sullyvan wrote
read this:
"Brigitte Gabriel Speech at Duke University"
"
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out

"

shittyzionz said...

Nice post Raja.

Yes we won, our resistance managed to launch missiles inside Israel- something thats never happened in the history of that fake state- they looked superior with their F16, tanks, missiles and all int prohibeted weapons. They claim they're winning. Can somebody tell me how? by destructing our country in front of all the world,killing our women & children and civilians, if thats what makes them feel like winners, then many congrats... BUT on the ground we kicked their asses and we're still doing so. Israel is a nazi country that cries out loud bcoz of what it calls (terrorists)and in fact Its the mother of terrorism. Best of luck to our resistance. I take my hats offfor all the ppl who hold on to what they believe despite the price theyre paying with their blood, their loved ones blood, their homes..ect Victory s coming like what Sayed Nassrallah promised & "we'll go to haifa, and beyond Haifa & beyond & beyond Haifa"
God Bless Lebanon
God Bless Resistance

Natalie

Dimitry said...

Now now, are Hiz supporters so desperate for achievements and brag material that they rewrite history in Israel's favor? Just to name a few, Hiz itself fired rockets into Israeli territory pretty much since the 80's (not pausing too much for the last 6 years), the PLO before them fired rockets into Israeli territory from Lebanon too, the Palestinians are firing Qassams into Israeli territory as we speak, and lastly, I dimly recall a certain great Arabic hero firing really big rockets on Israel, including Tel Aviv, now whatever happened to him...?

abou al jamejem said...

I would like you guys to excuse me just a bit, especially those of you who don't speak arabic. Ayri bi Neseralla, Wayri bi Lahood el mastoul, w ari bi Michel Aon el khayen, dammarou el balad. Now I would like to translate what I just said. Fuck Neseralla, fuck Emil Lahood our Idiot president, and fuck Michel Aoun the former General who became pro Syrian. When the fuck Iran and Syria are going to leave us alone. Iran should be destroyed. All of you guys who support Huzeballa are bunch of idiots. Huseballa dosen't give a fuck about us, they care more about their masters in Iran and Syria. Hasan neseralla Ayri betrayed not only lebanon but his own people. thank you all.

shittyzionz said...

Dimitry,
Read my postin the forgotten memory thread!
abou al jamejem
First of all, tell me how much did they pay you? (well theoretically, if you were actually Lebanese, because I cant really tell, you might be an Zionist (Israeli in another word) from Yemen or Iraq & that’s why your talking like that about Sayed Nassrallah (next time you call him Sayed, you dumb ass) so he betrayed his people & his country for Syria & Iran? He sacrificed his eldest son for Syria & Iran? He & his men are defending our borders for Syria & Iran? He's humiliating Israel & the USA ( who said they only needed some days to destroy HA, then it became some weeks to "weaken" HA & push them away from the borders blabla) see What HA and Sayed Nassrallah did & are doing? They are fighting four dignity & pride, if you have ever heard of these words. Do I have to repeat that every now & then, but as we Arabs say, eltekrar beaalem lehmar (you in another word) :P

Natalie