Addendum: Here's a little piece of info shared by a fellow Lebanese in the diaspora:
Apparently "CNN Pipeline" (found on Cnn.com) is providing live transmissions from several lebanese channels for a little monthlhy fee ($2.95).
Some outside of Lebanon don't have subscriptions to LBC Sat or any of the other LebaneseTV channels, and this is the only way someone can get video images from Lebanon...I hope this information is helpful.
Update: Air raids on my home city, Tripoli. Baalback was hit 16 times. The village of Ghraifeh in the Chouf mountains has been shelled.
On the other side, Katyusha rockets hit Nasira and other areas around the city.
Update 2: Why are they hitting Tripoli? Talked to my family; Israelis hit a place next to our house. They hit Al-Abdeh area in Akkar, which means that the only way out of Lebanon on the northern front has been hit. And now I found out that what's being hit in the north are Army posts. WHY?????!!!!
Also along the way on the Damascus-Beirut road, shelling is taking place on Bekaai villages. Is the plan to isolate Lebanese completely from the outside world?!!!!
Update 3: Three Lebanese soldiers died in Akkar in the north, as a result of Israeli shelling of a radar installation. I feel sorry for the soldiers; they are doing their job. Who knew the IDF will go as far to the north???!!!
Update 4: Four Lebanese soldiers wounded after their post was hit in Tripoli's port.
Update 5: Only one soldier has died in Akkar, but tens are wounded among them civilians. Now Israel has opened a can of worms; many parts of Akkar are very conservative Sunni. Why is the IDF messing with a sleeping beast????!!!! Why?
Update 6: Worse news - The Lebanese Red Cross reported that 6 Lebanese have died and 10 wounded in the assault over Al-Abdeh, Akkar.
Update 7: Three out of the four soldiers wounded in Tripoli have died.
Update 8: On TV there's live footage of the southern suburbs of Beirut burning. So more pounding of Beirut. Fuel tanks in the airport also have been shelled. Worst of all is news that a five-story building in Tyre has been destroyed. 10 dead already amongst them 4 children.
Update 9: Sources say that a food storage facility was hit in Choueifet. It's actually burning; I can see it on TV.
Update 10: It's 6:30AM Lebanon's time and it seems that for a while the IDF and Hizbullah have taken a break. Will snooze and return in a couple of hours. Salam!
Update: Air raids on my home city, Tripoli. Baalback was hit 16 times. The village of Ghraifeh in the Chouf mountains has been shelled.
On the other side, Katyusha rockets hit Nasira and other areas around the city.
Update 2: Why are they hitting Tripoli? Talked to my family; Israelis hit a place next to our house. They hit Al-Abdeh area in Akkar, which means that the only way out of Lebanon on the northern front has been hit. And now I found out that what's being hit in the north are Army posts. WHY?????!!!!
Also along the way on the Damascus-Beirut road, shelling is taking place on Bekaai villages. Is the plan to isolate Lebanese completely from the outside world?!!!!
Update 3: Three Lebanese soldiers died in Akkar in the north, as a result of Israeli shelling of a radar installation. I feel sorry for the soldiers; they are doing their job. Who knew the IDF will go as far to the north???!!!
Update 4: Four Lebanese soldiers wounded after their post was hit in Tripoli's port.
Update 5: Only one soldier has died in Akkar, but tens are wounded among them civilians. Now Israel has opened a can of worms; many parts of Akkar are very conservative Sunni. Why is the IDF messing with a sleeping beast????!!!! Why?
Update 6: Worse news - The Lebanese Red Cross reported that 6 Lebanese have died and 10 wounded in the assault over Al-Abdeh, Akkar.
Update 7: Three out of the four soldiers wounded in Tripoli have died.
Update 8: On TV there's live footage of the southern suburbs of Beirut burning. So more pounding of Beirut. Fuel tanks in the airport also have been shelled. Worst of all is news that a five-story building in Tyre has been destroyed. 10 dead already amongst them 4 children.
Update 9: Sources say that a food storage facility was hit in Choueifet. It's actually burning; I can see it on TV.
Update 10: It's 6:30AM Lebanon's time and it seems that for a while the IDF and Hizbullah have taken a break. Will snooze and return in a couple of hours. Salam!
"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."
31 comments:
Mike: I hope so too. But unfortunately it does not seem likely that this will end anytime in the near future. I think honestly that although Hizbollah was wrong to kidnap the two soldiers, Israel is more wrong to attack Lebanon like that. What the editor of An Nahar (sp?) Lebanese newspaper in Washington DC made absolute sense: that such aggression had previously radicalized Lebanese and made Hizbollah stronger.
AI
Yair, Hizballah do not use army radars.
A 12 story building in Tyre (Sour) was also hit today. 12 dead. All of them seeking refuge at the CIVIL DEFENCE office in the building. Tell me, what is that used for?
they wanna cut our only way out to syria from the north. I live in tripoli and i just heard the huge expulsion 30 min. ago. God be with us
Nasrallah was out on TV again. He said the IDF is misreading them. Israel bombed civilans. So, they hit the warship, a military target, as a warning. But Israeli continued targetting civilans. So, they hit Haifa. That they could've hit the petrochemical factory, but they deliberately avoided it. Everyone here knows that they have guided missiles, right?
This can get uglier, it seems. With extremists on both sides bent on destruction (some arguably more than others).
Yair,
The missile could have been aimed on sight. It is also easy to attach a GPS chip to it and preprogram it to hit a specific target. Cheap and easy. College students have fun with these things.
Hizballah used a C-102 on the warship. I thought the IDF knew Hizballah had those.
Z,
Has nothing to do with naivety. Just more simple knowledge on how things work and less brainwashing. As I said in the comment to Yair, college kids have fun with these things. If it is a missile and it is aimed so far in, then it has a GPS chip. Add GPS to readily available maps, PRESTO!
Yair,
How should exactly a map of the sea look like?
Hilarious.
They might very well have a radar (off the Internet for $15, for example). I was pointing out that it could have also been done with simpler techniques. Triangulation. Binoculars. Capiche?
While the IDF is equipped for fighting a high-tech war, they have always had problems with Hizballah's low-tech techniques. There never was a radar to bomb. There are no military installationg to target. The IDF are conducting this war by terrorizing the population (hence targetting civilans and civilian infrastructure) and trying to strangle Hizballah's supply (cutting off the country). The first we have had previous experience with. I do not suppose you have a justification for firing at ambulances and fire engines?
I don't know if it is worth anything, but I just wanted to wish safety to everyone in Lebanon and Israel. The political situation is frustrating to everyone involved, and the temptation to use violence rather than discussion to change things is enormous. Hopefully those in power will be able to focus not on their injuries and what responses seem justified, but on the eventual need to come to agreements and the necessary forebearance to reach that point.
Know you are all in many people's thoughts and prayers.
Zionrules16, I was not defending Hizballah. You cannot just butt into a conversation like that.
Shmulik, I cannot argue with myths and propaganda. Believe me, if Hizballah uses civilians, we would be the first to know. Lebanon is a small country. The truth is, you will justify anything IDF does. So there is really no point in arguing.
Yair, nice talking to you. I am afraid I can only handle one conversation at a time. With 2 being propaganda machines, I am afraid I will have to cut ours short. Laila Tov.
Sagi,
Just caught sight of your post. Concerning US policy, I remember Pakistan being dropped rather quickly off the axis of evil list after it started kissing butt. So, I do not know about that.
The rest of your argument is food for thought to which, alas, I cannot respond that late at night/early in the morning. For everyone's sake, though, I hope you're wrong. More tomorrow, inshallah.
www.jumptv.com
also provides links to future tv and aljazeera for a small fee
Why is it so impossible to admit that the Lebanese RADAR operators may have helped the Hizballah? You might notice that no other C-802 was fired since we took out the RADAR stations.
Given that there are Shi'a among the Lebanese Army, it is reasonable to assume that some of them may be sympathizers of Hezbollah. In addition, it's also not unreasonable to think that some Lebanese Army personnel were more than little angry at their country being bombed and despite whatever they think of Hezbollah, decided to help strike back. Beats me, but what you say about the missile being radar-guided is accurate. Eh, maybe Hezbollah has access to radar. After all, they have shown some other surprises thus far.
James: I'm haven't exactly been a fan of Islam since 9/11, but that is truly an assinine statement. Keep it up and you make the Wailing Wall a legitimate target in response -- something I certainly would not like to see.
John please open wikipedia and write C-802 and you will get all the info you need.
The Hizbalah can't hide a RADAR because as long as it is working it's radiation can be detected, If it's not working it can't taret the warship.
I did read it. If Hezbollah had access to radar, a prospect I doubt but possible, than it wouldn't need to turn it on until just before the attack and then turn it off afterwards. Beats me whether it was theirs or the Lebanese Army's, though the latter is far more logical to assume.
Again I am not saying the warship isn't a valid military target. I am saying that the RADAR station are also valid targets.
Indeed, both are though this isn't any comfort to the families of the sailors killed or those killed near the radar station.
jimtx: I think everyone here would like to avoid that from happening. Mecca and Medina may have been in my sights to become radioactive wastelands right after 9/11, but once the anger cooled somewhat reason prevailed. This does not mean, however, that a tough fight against extremists shouldn't be prosecuted. It most certainly should. But even if they may (or may not) be a minority, not every Muslim is an extremist so nuking their holy cities is out.
War is hell john. In Israel we know it better than many.
You have more experience with daily attacks, but I'd say we had a taste of it in recent years and found it to be not to our liking. Well, at least not to have it here in the homeland.
BTW if Hizballah has it's own RADAR I would assume they will launch more than 2 missiles (in one volley).
Possibly, assuming they have any more. Ditto if the radar belonged to the Lebanese Army. Most of Hezbollah's armaments seem to be Katyusha rockets.
This is an interesting analysis, though 3 days old, from IMRA. If accurate, things could get even uglier over the next few days. I hope an understanding will be reached before the IDF goes in.
This has been WW3 since Jimmy Carter showed how weak the west can be.
A failed president to be sure, but the WWII analogies don't fly here. With Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan those were classic nation-state wars, this is different. The shadowy kind of war fought by terrorism clouds things in people's minds and unless we have another 9/11 incident traceable to these countries I do not see US forces going into Iran or Syria. Our public does not have the stomach for it after Iraq. That could change very quickly, but at the present time no. Of course this doesn't rule out bombing raids on Iran over nukes, but that's all I can see. Nevertheless, in direct military action Israel is alone at the moment and probably will be for the duration.
I think the US knows war pretty well. It took a war to establish the US. We had wars with the Indians. We nearly had a war with Canada. We had a very bloody civil war. Spanish-American war, Mexican -American war. Texas had its own wars. WW1 and WW2. Korean War. Cold War. Vietnam. Desert Storm. Afghanistan and Iraq. We know war. Its in our history very much. We have sacrificed millions for others. One thing Americans do, is they boil it down quickly. Used to. They do what needs to be done and will bring Hell on Earth.
Yet all of these wars are distant memories for most Americans. We haven't had an attack on US soil, except for 9/11, since 1941. There has been no major conflict on US soil since the Civil War of 140 years ago. Vietnam still rings in the psyche of many Americans, unfortunately, and as can be seen with how controversial Iraq has become this weighs us down at times. No, I do not see the US getting involved militarily at this point.
Jhon you sell the Hizballah short. They have used american TOW missiles (How the hell did they get those?) in the past and they have rockets much more advanced than the Katyusha (Iranian made mostly). Maybe they have other things but make no mistake they are one of the world's best trained and armed guerilla/terois organizations. They ar fully supported by 2 nations and partially by others.
I'm not sure how I did that. They are an effective terrorist group and excel at low-intensity warfare. Yet they are not an army and all the bravado in the world will not change that the IDF is superior in this regard. Having said that, guerillas have been known to bring down even the most powerful of armies by sapping their will to fight. Vietnam comes to mind. As for the TOWs, beats me. Guess they stole them from somebody.
The only people who want this war are people like Hamas, Narallah, the Mullahs in Iran, the radicals in Syria, the Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood. Etc.
Which makes the idea of nuking Mecca and Medina all the more ridiculous. Nothing would guarantee all-out war more than this.
I think I agree with "Iraq the Model" blog, Iran is trying to stay in control, pushing the buttons. But I can't see their advantage starting this situation now. If Hizbollah has gone off on their own, is this just a macho pride thing? What was or is their objective? Some internal power struggle thing? And Israel if it goes too far may be just creating more trouble for itself in the long run.
We should do everything in our power from letting such a nation-state come to existence.
Agreed, but nuking people out of fear isn't the answer. Look at Lebanon, for all its faults in failing to deal with Hezbollah, a budding democracy was still growing there (and hopefully still will). Democracy has made inroads in Iraq, Kuwait, and even Saudi Arabia (very small baby steps there of course). It won't happen overnight and perhaps not even in our lifetimes, but freedom will come evnetually to the Arab world.
Bush, after 9/11 had guts. He has lost them. He still parlays with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We need to have a united front in this war, the wider war.
Because he faces realpolitik in that there is only so much any president can do at one time. He lacks the support of a majority of the American people to make this a wider war. I wish it were otherwise, at least on the lack of support for certain actions, but such is reality. For many Americans 9/11 apparently wasn't enough of a wake-up call and the whole thing has become political. But that's a discussion for another forum. I'm just explaining why I do not believe the US will get involved in this conflict militarily.
So, what happens if Iran gets a nuke, or... god forbid, they already do. You think they are going to sit on it. Or do you think they'll give it to Hezbollah?
If such were to occur in the next 2 years, I doubt Bush would hesitate in sending in bombers. I doubt there will ground troops though unless it escalated. After 2008, I cannot say. It depends upon who wins the White House.
The article was dead on about what we think of "world opinion" We are so sick and tired of the world judging us with double standards that we really don't give a rat's ass about it. The only nation on earth that we respect (maybe because you pay some of our bills) it's opinion is the US.
Israel's opinion is the only foreign opinion many americans (myself included) respect. We percieve the rest of the world as either being strategically and militarily inept (canada, japan, etc) or hating us.
raa
the only problem is that the people blaming israel here are regurgitating the same old arguments and reasoning...
@Doha, Apparantly there is some data stating that some of the Lebanese army had supplied goods to Hezbollah. That's why they are being attacked.
@box said...
"suzanne - convenient, after-the-fact excuses. if this is the case, then why have israeli officials been claiming all day on international news sites that they had not hit anything besides hezbollah targets?"
Very simple. Once the Hezbollah uses Lebanese military tools, these tools become Hezbollah targets.
It really does pain me to see the people of Lebanon suffering so dearly from the whims of these Near Eastern hegemons. Israel's gung-ho "self-defense" mentality has degenerated into a bloodthirsty assault on the innocent civilians of a sovereign nation. Iran and Syria are content to sit back and let Beirut burn so long as they can manipulate the political climate and keep the region in a constant state of fear. The Lebanese people constitute a forward-thinking, heterogenous society, spearheaded by a vibrant youth with a genuine desire for change. But alas, when the bombs start dropping, the uniqueness of the Lebanese nation and people is forgotten, and once again Lebanon is to serve as the firing range for political experiments. I'm really sorry for all of the bullshit you've had to endure, guys, and your safety is definitely in my thoughts. Here is to a sincere hope that one day, Lebanon's neighbors will acknowledge it as more than a mere pawn to their extremist visions.
Why Israel hit Tripoli:
...the Israeli army said it had targeted radar stations there because they had been used by Hezbollah to hit a warship on Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah.
"The attacks ... are against radar stations used, among other things, in the attack on the Israeli missile boat, by Hezbollah in cooperation with the Lebanese military," the Israeli army spokesman told The Associated Press.
IMO, from the little I know of such matters, it is just possible, depending on the guidance system of the missile, that the Lebanese military did not know that their radar was being used to guide the missile to its target.
i am shocked that no one thus far has discussed any of the historical or political reasons for this violence.
ahem: have we forgotten that israel is a colonial state, settled on the dust of 700.000 palestinian refugees who now number 6 million, many of whom reside in south lebanon and support hezbollah?
israel, like the united states, is interested in nothing short of keeping its colonies safe from the meddling native intruders who demand democracy and a respect for their human and political rights. no such respect is granted.
israel would not have problems in the neighborhood were it to give up its occupation of the west bank, relieve gazans from their miserable, open air prison, quit trying to intimidate the arab states surrounding it, and start honest negotiations with the palestinian government.
israel does not recognize hamas. why should hamas recognize israel? the problem in the middle east stinks of israeli hypocrisy.
unfortunately, now not only gazans and west bankers, but also lebanese civilians are paying the price for israeli racism (most clearly articulated by its jim crow legal system). they are also paying the price for olmert's arrogance.
pity.
@boston2palestine:
You just cannot negotiate with your killer about how you want to be killed. Period.
Furthermore, it has been recognised by Israel that the Hamas won. THey just do not want to negotiate with them, because of the just mentioned reason. Is that so difficult to grasp?
And hon, are you a native american? Jews have more right to live in that desert piece of land (yea, check the books and archeological sites), than non-native americans in the united states.
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