Sunday, July 16, 2006

Sleepless Lebanon

Another sleepless night in the South and the Bekaa. More rocket attacks and deaths. Will keep the updates flowing through the evening.

Addendum: Here's a little piece of info shared by a fellow Lebanese in the diaspora:

Apparently "CNN Pipeline" (found on Cnn.com) is providing live transmissions from several lebanese channels for a little monthlhy fee ($2.95).
Some outside of Lebanon don't have subscriptions to LBC Sat or any of the other LebaneseTV channels, and this is the only way someone can get video images from Lebanon...I hope this information is helpful.

Update: Air raids on my home city, Tripoli. Baalback was hit 16 times. The village of Ghraifeh in the Chouf mountains has been shelled.

On the other side, Katyusha rockets hit Nasira and other areas around the city.

Update 2: Why are they hitting Tripoli? Talked to my family; Israelis hit a place next to our house. They hit Al-Abdeh area in Akkar, which means that the only way out of Lebanon on the northern front has been hit. And now I found out that what's being hit in the north are Army posts. WHY?????!!!!

Also along the way on the Damascus-Beirut road, shelling is taking place on Bekaai villages. Is the plan to isolate Lebanese completely from the outside world?!!!!

Update 3: Three Lebanese soldiers died in Akkar in the north, as a result of Israeli shelling of a radar installation. I feel sorry for the soldiers; they are doing their job. Who knew the IDF will go as far to the north???!!!

Update 4: Four Lebanese soldiers wounded after their post was hit in Tripoli's port.

Update 5: Only one soldier has died in Akkar, but tens are wounded among them civilians. Now Israel has opened a can of worms; many parts of Akkar are very conservative Sunni. Why is the IDF messing with a sleeping beast????!!!! Why?

Update 6: Worse news - The Lebanese Red Cross reported that 6 Lebanese have died and 10 wounded in the assault over Al-Abdeh, Akkar.

Update 7: Three out of the four soldiers wounded in Tripoli have died.

Update 8: On TV there's live footage of the southern suburbs of Beirut burning. So more pounding of Beirut. Fuel tanks in the airport also have been shelled. Worst of all is news that a five-story building in Tyre has been destroyed. 10 dead already amongst them 4 children.

Update 9: Sources say that a food storage facility was hit in Choueifet. It's actually burning; I can see it on TV.

Update 10: It's 6:30AM Lebanon's time and it seems that for a while the IDF and Hizbullah have taken a break. Will snooze and return in a couple of hours. Salam!

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

149 comments:

mike said...

Good luck to you, here's hoping that this madness on both sides comes to a fast conclusion and no we in the West don't all support Israel

Michael said...

Some of us support both goverments, but will not support terrorist.

Athena Ivan said...

Mike: I hope so too. But unfortunately it does not seem likely that this will end anytime in the near future. I think honestly that although Hizbollah was wrong to kidnap the two soldiers, Israel is more wrong to attack Lebanon like that. What the editor of An Nahar (sp?) Lebanese newspaper in Washington DC made absolute sense: that such aggression had previously radicalized Lebanese and made Hizbollah stronger.

AI

yair said...

I guess a radar installation was hit. These are needed to operate the C-802 Silkworm missile such as the one that hit the Israeli frigate the other day.

nasbined said...

judeofacist vampires at it again. it is said the monsters are blood drunk on revenge because they were so humiliated in lebanon 6 years ago.

Omar said...

happy to hear that you spoke with your family.

Thanks for posting the cnn monthly fee thing. Our satellite is out and Im looking to subscribe to LBC and Future

mike said...

Glad to hear that you heard from your family.. Just saw the breaking news on MSNBC just seconds after you posted on your blog about the latest attacks .. Your blog has been good at keeping us up to date, I'm getting my news from you guys faster then I am from the media

z said...

Mike how west r u I’m in the west and must around me support Israel
U must be in Europe

Suha said...

Yair, Hizballah do not use army radars.

A 12 story building in Tyre (Sour) was also hit today. 12 dead. All of them seeking refuge at the CIVIL DEFENCE office in the building. Tell me, what is that used for?

FaiLaSooF said...

they wanna cut our only way out to syria from the north. I live in tripoli and i just heard the huge expulsion 30 min. ago. God be with us

mike said...

Nope I'm in Western Canada actually, I don't support either side. I support the people of both sides that are getting hit hard by the hard liners on both sides, having that I also believe that Israel is targeting innocents

box said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Suha said...

Nasrallah was out on TV again. He said the IDF is misreading them. Israel bombed civilans. So, they hit the warship, a military target, as a warning. But Israeli continued targetting civilans. So, they hit Haifa. That they could've hit the petrochemical factory, but they deliberately avoided it. Everyone here knows that they have guided missiles, right?

This can get uglier, it seems. With extremists on both sides bent on destruction (some arguably more than others).

z said...

I’m so sry for all the kills but how a sovereign country like Leb allowed army in their country???? For what? to wipe Israel? And you think the Israeli should sit and wait
I was borne in Lebanon

Mike I’m in eastern Canada

box said...

failasoof... please be safe. so many people are hoping for your safety and survival, for what that's worth and if it helps. you are in our constant thoughts and prayers.

Doha said...

Failasoof, I just added your blog to our Lebanese bloggers list on the right hand margin. Keep up the good work.

yair said...

Suha,

You are right (they do not even have a radar). Yet the missile was fired. The Lebanese military is in a very delicate situation. In some occasions it is actively participating in the fight. For example anti aircraft fire is often used.

One other detail from some Israeli new services: The IDF intelligence did not know anyone in Lebanon has silkworm missiles and so ordered all Navy ships to turn off their missile defense systems. The reason: these systems are fully automated and can therefore shoot down an Israeli Jet that flies too low. A friendly-fire incident was deemed a bigger danger than enemy missiles... Cocky.

Doha said...

"In some occasions it is [the lebanese army] actively participating in the fight. For example anti aircraft fire is often used."

what do you expect the army to do? sit and watch? plus the lebanese army always sent anti aircraft fire when the IDF used to raid over Beirut in the middle of the nights every now and then. But we all know that the anti aircraft fire is a joke. We don't have any sophisticated equipment in the lebanese army.

Suha said...

Yair,

The missile could have been aimed on sight. It is also easy to attach a GPS chip to it and preprogram it to hit a specific target. Cheap and easy. College students have fun with these things.

Hizballah used a C-102 on the warship. I thought the IDF knew Hizballah had those.

z said...

Suha do you think Nasrallah did not aimed to the petrochemical factory? Right.. don’t be naïve this is his main reason

April said...

Mike,

Just wanted to ask you since you're in Canada and might know. Has there been any response by the Canadian government that 8 Canadian citizens were killed by the latest Israeli bombing?

yair said...

Concerning the specific Tyre building. I don't know. The only references I can find is that Tyre as the location from which this mornings rockets were fired to Haifa.

Anyone knows which villages are the ones the IDF announced will be shelled tonight? Did these include Tyre?

Suha said...

Z,

Has nothing to do with naivety. Just more simple knowledge on how things work and less brainwashing. As I said in the comment to Yair, college kids have fun with these things. If it is a missile and it is aimed so far in, then it has a GPS chip. Add GPS to readily available maps, PRESTO!

April said...

I want to thank you for the updates on the blog. When this whole thing started, I was watching the news channels here in the US. But, I stopped because they don't report a whole lot. I've found out more by reading this blog than I have by watching CNN or any of the other news stations. Thanks!! And stay safe, although I know that's easier said than done.

yair said...

Suha,

The ship was 10 miles into the see when it was hit. So that the missile could not in this case be directed by sight or GPS. How do you get the coordinates without a radar? The Egyptian ship that was hit was even further. A radar was used. Is that so surprising in a war?

yair said...

How should exactly a map of the sea look like?

Shmulik said...

Suha
Yair is right you can't hit a moving target at sea with GPS guidance, more ever the c-802 is RADAR guided. We are not saying a warship is not a valid target in war. We are saying that the Lebanese army has collaborated with Hizballah in this, hence our attack on your coastal RADARs is completly justified. I can personally tell you that Naserallah is lying in at least some of what he says- for example the Hizballah has started firing on our cities BEFORE the attack on the warship. In fact several civilians were wounded in Hizbollah's initial abduction as the Hizbollah rained fire on our towns as a diversion. I can't tell you we only hit the Hizballah (since they hide inside civilian population) but please don't tell me the Hezbollah has ANY regard for our civilians.

yair said...

Putting aside radar installations. There is a rumor of an agreement between the US and Israel not to hit infrastructure (electric grid, communication, etc) except for transportation related - roads bridges and fuel tanks. The idea is to isolate south Lebanon (were rockets are fired from) from the Bakaa valley (were the large ammunition storage facilities are) and of-course from Syria.

yair said...

c-102 c-802 I couldn't tell between them if they bit me in the nose. However, I do believe the IDF did not know any ground to sea missiles are available. The turning off of missile defenses sounds just like the stupid thing big organizations will do.

dunno said...

I have not read all of the above, so apologies if I have missed something .. but to Yair. Sour (Tyre) is not a village. It is a big and wonderful city ... with more history than most anywhere you care to name. Europa was born here, and carried away by Jupiter to populate Europe. This is the place were civilisation started. It is also the place where the imperial purple used by roman emperors was extracted from the murex shellfish. This splendid city is not a place from which anyone would send missiles anywhere. The open spaces are archaeolgical sites protected by the Antiquities service .. or are on the beach next to the UN. no one would ever bother to launch a missile from here .. it is just too complicated. It is so much easier from the open countryside around. And anyone who sends a rocket into Sour knows before they start that they are killing civlians.

Suha said...

Yair,

How should exactly a map of the sea look like?

Hilarious.
They might very well have a radar (off the Internet for $15, for example). I was pointing out that it could have also been done with simpler techniques. Triangulation. Binoculars. Capiche?

While the IDF is equipped for fighting a high-tech war, they have always had problems with Hizballah's low-tech techniques. There never was a radar to bomb. There are no military installationg to target. The IDF are conducting this war by terrorizing the population (hence targetting civilans and civilian infrastructure) and trying to strangle Hizballah's supply (cutting off the country). The first we have had previous experience with. I do not suppose you have a justification for firing at ambulances and fire engines?

zionrules16 said...

suha,

do you have justification for launching missles into apartment buildings?

yair said...

I confess to my ignorance of Lebanese cities. Actually I did hear of (pronounced like Tzoor) in Hebrew. And so it is obviously not in the list of towns targeted...

Shmulik said...

Dunno:
Tyre being a wonderful city Didn't stop Alexander the great from besiegeing the city and enslaving the populace. I don't know specifically about tyre but I can tell you that Hizballah even uses churches to lunch rockets from. Do you think Nasarallah gives a damn about historic monuments?? I think you don't know what we are dealing with.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Suha, I moved this comment from a previous thread that's obviously dead by now:

I more or less agree with you completely: The timing of the soldiers' kidnapping seems all too convenient for it NOT to be ordered by Iran, and frankly - they're the only ones standing to gain anything from this fight. I also agree with you about Iran's aspirations, the fear it causes in many Arab rulers, and I'm willing to accede that Ahmadinejad is probably not insane (though you'd have a hard time believing that after hearing him ranting about Israel on TV).

It's funny (though not really "ha-ha" funny) you've used the wild card metaphor. When I talked with my friends earlier today, I've likened Iran's pushing Lebanon into a conflict with Israel to a card player willing to lose a valuable card for some other gain. Sigh... "I'll see your Lebanon and raise you a regional war". Perhaps a chess sacrifice methapor is more fitting... :(

The saddest thing is, Israel was more or less sure to react the way it did: A chance to finally rid ourselves of a hostile Iranian militia on our Northern border is percieved as simply too good an opportunity to miss... So now there's war... With Syria probably praying it won't be dragged into it and Teheran's cackling.

The one thing I don't agree with you on is about how the war with Iran will be fought... Certainly, the Israel-Lebanon conflict is the beginning, but I don't believe it will end there:

Wars are fought when both sides believe they have something to gain, or when both can't back down. See the current conflict: Israel wishes to neutralize a serious risk and gain a peaceful Northern border, Iran wishing to buy more time or just sow discord (hard for the US to gain Arab support for the war against Iran when hated Israel is busy fighting one of them) - and there you have it. War, with your poor country taking the brunt of it.

With the US and Iran, I fear there's a similiar no-escape situation: The US is VERY unlikely to accept a nuclear Iran, certainly with their current "war on terrorism" agenda. There are other reasons - certainly they believe Iran's bid for power needs to be checked - but I think the nuclear thingy will be the deciding factor. Iran, on the other hand, or at the very least - Ahmadinejad - seems unable to back down on the bomb issue. I think the regime there is not as stable as it presents itself: There's a growing layer of intelligentsia that's chafing under the theocracy they're living in, and it seems to me Ahmadinejad put too much of his personal prestige on the "Iran deserves nuclear power" thingy for him to back down and survive politically... So we've got two players that won't - probably CAN'T - back down, and the clock starts ticking...

Jebbo said...

I don't know if it is worth anything, but I just wanted to wish safety to everyone in Lebanon and Israel. The political situation is frustrating to everyone involved, and the temptation to use violence rather than discussion to change things is enormous. Hopefully those in power will be able to focus not on their injuries and what responses seem justified, but on the eventual need to come to agreements and the necessary forebearance to reach that point.

Know you are all in many people's thoughts and prayers.

jewfie said...

You are constantly asking why is Lebanon being punished so hard and not Syria or Iran who are probably more responsible. I have a theory...I think it is because that currently Israel's government thinks it is the most cost effective reaction. It has nothing to do with justice neither is the suffering of the Lebanese people taken into account. Pounding Lebanon in an attempt to hit Hizbulla seems cheaper than an all out war with Syria. I can't think of a war that moral or justice were part of its considerations, this one does not differ. I still pray for peace in our time.

yair said...

No there are no excuses for firing on ambulances, residential buildings etc. Usually that happens because of two reasons.
1. Hezbollah is a guerrilla organization. Guerrilla tactics dictate hiding between civilians. And therefore errors are sometimes made when targeting. That's not an excuse, since errors should not be made. Yet they are.
2. When ground forces are involved, there are cases of blunt war crimes, at the initiative of some low-level troops. By blunt I do not mean taking excessive risk of civilians hurt in this or that case. I mean just shooting some civilian in the back in purpose.

Shmulik said...

Suha you astound me. please look at wikipedia- C-802 is a RADAR guided missile. You simply can't hit a MOVING target 16 kilometers at sea at night!!
Why is it so impossible to admit that the Lebanese RADAR operators may have helped the Hizballah? You might notice that no other C-802 was fired since we took out the RADAR stations.
you say there are no military installations to attack bit if so where do the Hizballah get their rockets from, thin air?? Clearly there are rocket warehouses, launchpads, launch vehicles and much more. The IDF may be more high-tech but the Hizballah aren't exactly cve-men eighter.

zionrules16 said...

I am sure when Lebanon hits Israeli residential areas it is just error made when targeting.

But when Israel hits "civilians" we are genocidal maniacs.

Why does Hezbolllah get a double standard?

Shmulik said...

I meant can't hit amoving target at night 16 KM from shore at night with GPS, or triangulation.

Suha said...

Zionrules16, I was not defending Hizballah. You cannot just butt into a conversation like that.

Shmulik, I cannot argue with myths and propaganda. Believe me, if Hizballah uses civilians, we would be the first to know. Lebanon is a small country. The truth is, you will justify anything IDF does. So there is really no point in arguing.

Yair, nice talking to you. I am afraid I can only handle one conversation at a time. With 2 being propaganda machines, I am afraid I will have to cut ours short. Laila Tov.

zionrules16 said...

sorry my bad, I will butt out of "your conversation"

mike said...

Actually very little has been said by the Gov on this other then to confirm that yes Canadians where hurt and yes some die. Our Gov used to play things pretty much right down the middle Re: The Middle East but since the new Gov took over the offical stance is very Pro Israel

Mike,

Just wanted to ask you since you're in Canada and might know. Has there been any response by the Canadian government that 8 Canadian citizens were killed by the latest Israeli bombing?

yair said...

Good night. I agree about the level of some posts here that you referred to...

Suha said...

Sagi,

Just caught sight of your post. Concerning US policy, I remember Pakistan being dropped rather quickly off the axis of evil list after it started kissing butt. So, I do not know about that.

The rest of your argument is food for thought to which, alas, I cannot respond that late at night/early in the morning. For everyone's sake, though, I hope you're wrong. More tomorrow, inshallah.

Shmulik said...

Suha why every time you can't answer a question it's because of our propoganda??
I have proven to you that the C-802 is RADAR guided and that it probably couldn't be guided in anoter way. IS this propoganda??
Israel has suffered hundreds of rocket attacks and the iranian boast they have given more than 10,000 to the hisballah (this BTW coincides with Israeli inteligence reports). Can you honestly tell me there are no military targets in Lebanon??
Use your head, isn't civilian population the best place to hide them from UAVs and sattelites??
Is this propoganda
Israel is a small country too, do you think I know where we store our weapons??

Mirvat said...

www.jumptv.com
also provides links to future tv and aljazeera for a small fee

z said...

Shmulik

Right on suha claim I’m brainwash.. see you have the answer I did not reply

sub Rosa said...

The int'l community, which is usualy very anti-Israeli, has given Israel an OK to operate. The message is clear, dear people of Lebanon: Kick the Iranians and Syrians out, dismantle Hizbullah, turn in Nassrallah.

I saw Nassrallah's video clip tonight. It was filled with psychological warfare, and big fat lies (like his Iranian patrons who claimed they were not involved, while all of us know they are sitting in Lebanon right now!). For example, he claimed he wasn't targeting civilians... (well, maybe that's true, he is just shooting and wherever it falls, it falls)

I'm sure many Lebanese realize this is all a show of a desperate terrorist who realizes his days are numbered. Perhaps now is the time to help the world and Israel, help you. Get rid of Hizbullah and their patrons!

Lebanon for the Lebanese!

John said...

Why is it so impossible to admit that the Lebanese RADAR operators may have helped the Hizballah? You might notice that no other C-802 was fired since we took out the RADAR stations.

Given that there are Shi'a among the Lebanese Army, it is reasonable to assume that some of them may be sympathizers of Hezbollah. In addition, it's also not unreasonable to think that some Lebanese Army personnel were more than little angry at their country being bombed and despite whatever they think of Hezbollah, decided to help strike back. Beats me, but what you say about the missile being radar-guided is accurate. Eh, maybe Hezbollah has access to radar. After all, they have shown some other surprises thus far.

Shmulik said...

John please open wikipedia and write C-802 and you will get all the info you need.
The Hizbalah can't hide a RADAR because as long as it is working it's radiation can be detected, If it's not working it can't taret the warship. Again I am not saying the warship isn't a valid military target. I am saying that the RADAR station are also valid targets. Why is any of these "zionist propoganda" and nor plain common-sense??

Jim_TX said...

Taken out to its logical extreme, if this is WW3, to end it will require an approach similar to WW2. So, lets just short circuit the next 4 years of war and nuke Tehran and Damascus now. Throw in Mecca and Medina for good measure.

What would 1.2 billion muslims do if what they pray to is a smoldering pit of nothingness that Allah couldn't stop. Maybe they would question their faith and Allah.

Japanese were fanatics too. Look what happened when their Emperor (God) couldn't stop the inevitable.

sub Rosa said...

you might find it interesting, but there was a demonstration of Israelis against the war in Lebanon today, here in Tel Aviv. I have nothing but contempt to those leftists, but as you can see - we have them to in our democracy...
here's links to the article:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276906,00.html
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/450/202.html

MOst of the talkbacks in the hebrew site are against them.

CatoRenasci said...

I understand it was a radar installation that was hit. Apparently, the Israelis have some information that Lebanese army radar was involved in the C-802 missle attack on the Israeli corvette the other day. If that's true, the decision to take out all Lebanese army coastal radar is logical.

Prayers for the safety of your family in Tripoli.

Indeed, it looks like the Israelis are trying to isolate the battlefield, both to prevent resupply of Hezbollah and to preven Hezbollah from escaping to Syria. I think the Israelis mean to kill or capture every Hezbollah they can find.

crosspatch said...

Lebanese army doesn't have to intentionally help Hezbollah. If the normal government navigation radar illuminates the target, the missile can lock onto the target.

There is no requirement that the radar be somehow coordinated with the missile other than the receiver in the missile is listening to the same radio frequency as the radar station is transmitting. The missile simply observes the reflected radar signal and goes to it's target.

One must eliminate the radar in order to eliminate the guidance for the missile.

Shmulik said...

James where are you from??
who would do the nuking, you??
Who will breath VX nere gas they retaliate with, you??
No, Israel. You are awfully cavalier with our's and the arab's lives.

Doha said...

james, you are cruel and insulting!

John said...

James: I'm haven't exactly been a fan of Islam since 9/11, but that is truly an assinine statement. Keep it up and you make the Wailing Wall a legitimate target in response -- something I certainly would not like to see.

Shmulik said...

Doha I must say that even as a "blood-thirsty" Israeli I am outraged by comments suhh as James's.
I do have to say I would like you to indulge me with an answer to my previous questions.

Jim_TX said...

The VX Gas and mass attacks are coming anyways, if we do nothing. We are just pro-longing the inevitable. What do you think Iran will do with its Nuclear weapon when it gets it?

The charade has gone on long enough. Many will die, yes. I am willing to fight for my country if needed. I am willing if it means a better world in the end. Just like the young men who fought and died in WW2. Millions died on all sides. WW3 has a long way to go to claim as many lives.

I don't want to live in a country where free expression is stifled because we have to be "sensitive" to some hateful ideology. Witness the Cartoon Wars. The so called west was intimidated. We failed to live up to our ideals. All those millions of men and we can't even print a fucking picture of Mohammed in the newspaper.

We are near terminus with this cancer. Time to cut it all out before it kills its host.

sub Rosa said...

indeed James has gone too far :(
Even the people in Iran and Syria shouldn't pay for their zealotic dictators (in Iran) or excentric oligarchs (Syria).

Jim_TX said...

I am making a logical argument. People have called this WW3. I am not necessarily advocating the nuking of such sites. But if Iran gets the nuke. They'll use it first. Matter of opinion yes, but rooted in reality of what mad-men like him have done in the past.

What ended WW2?

How will WW3 end?

That is the question I am trying to answer.

John said...

John please open wikipedia and write C-802 and you will get all the info you need.
The Hizbalah can't hide a RADAR because as long as it is working it's radiation can be detected, If it's not working it can't taret the warship.


I did read it. If Hezbollah had access to radar, a prospect I doubt but possible, than it wouldn't need to turn it on until just before the attack and then turn it off afterwards. Beats me whether it was theirs or the Lebanese Army's, though the latter is far more logical to assume.

Again I am not saying the warship isn't a valid military target. I am saying that the RADAR station are also valid targets.

Indeed, both are though this isn't any comfort to the families of the sailors killed or those killed near the radar station.

sub Rosa said...

I'd like to ask Doha, Suha and the rest of the Lebanese here: to which group in Lebanon do you belong to? Suni, Druze, Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Shiite or other?

John said...

jimtx: I think everyone here would like to avoid that from happening. Mecca and Medina may have been in my sights to become radioactive wastelands right after 9/11, but once the anger cooled somewhat reason prevailed. This does not mean, however, that a tough fight against extremists shouldn't be prosecuted. It most certainly should. But even if they may (or may not) be a minority, not every Muslim is an extremist so nuking their holy cities is out.

Shmulik said...

War is hell john. In Israel we know it better than many.
BTW if Hizballah has it's own RADAR I would assume they will launch more than 2 missiles (in one volley).

John said...

War is hell john. In Israel we know it better than many.

You have more experience with daily attacks, but I'd say we had a taste of it in recent years and found it to be not to our liking. Well, at least not to have it here in the homeland.

BTW if Hizballah has it's own RADAR I would assume they will launch more than 2 missiles (in one volley).

Possibly, assuming they have any more. Ditto if the radar belonged to the Lebanese Army. Most of Hezbollah's armaments seem to be Katyusha rockets.

Jim_TX said...

John:

Not every German was a Nazi either. But what did it take to win? It took Total War. It took massive bombing campaigns.

Not every Japanese was a Kamikaze either, but what did it take to win? How many men died for pacific islands?

This has been WW3 since Jimmy Carter showed how weak the west can be.

Mouse said...

It's 0255 here in West-Europe and I just can't sleep.
I'm to worried about my friends in Liban.
I thank God, that one of my dearest friends is gonna get evacuated by the French. Praise dual nationalities.
But alot of my other friends are still stuck in Lebanon.

Please, bot Israeli and Lebanese here. Don't start with hatred and that kind of crap.
Let us mourn the civilian deaths on both sides.
Let us hope and pray that this will soon end.
And that both Israel and Lebanon can recover.

Good luck and I'll pray for you! ( I actually never pray but this is a good time )

A concerned Sunni

Jim_TX said...

shmulik:

I think the US knows war pretty well. It took a war to establish the US. We had wars with the Indians. We nearly had a war with Canada. We had a very bloody civil war. Spanish-American war, Mexican -American war. Texas had its own wars. WW1 and WW2. Korean War. Cold War. Vietnam. Desert Storm. Afghanistan and Iraq. We know war. Its in our history very much. We have sacrificed millions for others. One thing Americans do, is they boil it down quickly. Used to. They do what needs to be done and will bring Hell on Earth.

Common slogan of the Marines. No better friend, No worse enemy.

Shmulik said...

Jhon you sell the Hizballah short. They have used american TOW missiles (How the hell did they get those?) in the past and they have rockets much more advanced than the Katyusha (Iranian made mostly). Maybe they have other things but make no mistake they are one of the world's best trained and armed guerilla/terois organizations. They ar fully supported by 2 nations and partially by others.

April said...

That truly was an asinine comment by James.

The problem with people who think like James is that they're unable or unwilling to distinguish between the "evil doers" and innocent people who are just trying to live in peace. They lump everyone in a certain racial, religious, or ethnic category together when someone from that category does something.

So with his kind of thinking, the US would have been right to round up all of the white males in the United States after McVeigh and Nichols bombed the Oklahoma City Federal Building. Or, they would have been right to round up all of the white males in the United States when Eric Rudolph bombed the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.

The point is, they didn't. And to suggest that the entire Arab world be nuked because of the actions of a few is completely asinine and totally insane.

Shmulik said...

No disrespect to you Jim_TX but there is a hugh difference between war over-seas and war in your home. You have to understand that in most of your wars the price of failure was political damage. If we lose, the price of failure will be much more severe. none the less we do not shirk from combat if it is forced upon us.

sub Rosa said...

Mouse, I say amen to that! This is another chapter of the long tragedy that both Israel and Lebanon are dealing with. I don't think there is hatered towards the people of Lebanon here. Towards Hizbullah yes, towards the Lebanese - no way! It's idiotic to hate someone for what he is, and besides, we are all too alike. If at all, it's like a family feud...
I'm not a believer, so I don't believe in praying, but I hope no civilians in both Liban and Israel get hurt. more than all, I hope that after this we will have an independant free and democratic neigbor in the Greetings, from Tel Aviv.

John said...

This is an interesting analysis, though 3 days old, from IMRA. If accurate, things could get even uglier over the next few days. I hope an understanding will be reached before the IDF goes in.

sub Rosa said...

correction to the last sentance: "...neighbor to the north of us".

illa lika.

Sagi (Israel) said...

Please forgive me for re-posting an old comment, but the original thread died quite quickly and I'd like the many new people here to see it too... :)

So, why are we having this war, or rather - why NOW?

While the kidnapping of two Isrealy soldiers by Hizbullah was a MAJOR provocation, and one that nobody expected Israel to ignore - it was hardly the first time since the IDF's withdrawal fron southern Lebanon that Nasrallah's acts provided Israel with a casus belli.So again, why now?

I believe there are two major reasons:

1) The Syrian withdrawal: As long as Syrian troops were stationed in Lebanon, there would've been little hope of its goverment attempting to disarm Hizbullah and taking responsibility for the Southern border. Further - as long as the Syrian occupied Lebanon, it was implicitly understood that they would be held reponsible for any war-like acts coming from there.

The Syrian leadership stands to gain practically nothing from a war with Israel while standing to lose quite a lot, and that's why Israel - while not exactly happy to have Syrian troops stationed in Lebanon - prefered this state to the current one: While Syria controlled Lebanon, it was held accountable for it: Anything major coming out of Lebanon towards Israel would've entailed an Israely attack on Damascus, which they could ill afford. The accountibility of centeralized regimes to any war-acts coming from their terriotory is key to stopping and avoiding wars: A country surrenders and stops fighting when its army cannot protect it any more. A militant group like Hizbullah, that's probably more strongly allied with Iran that its native Lebanon, can keep fighting with little regard to the country crumbling around it. A no-man's-land situation like the one currently existing in Lebanon is simply an unacceptable risk to Israel, especailly now, which brings me to reason 2 for the war:

2) The approaching Iran-US war: Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic, but I believe all signs point to this war happening within a couple of years at most: I'd be happy to share my reasoning, if anyone wishes to hear it, but it's immaterial to my point; When this war happens, it's almost sure to involve Israel: The only realistic way for distant Iran to engage Israel is with rockets and missiles. Ballistic missiles can be shot down - at least with some degree of success - and the difficulty and expense of manufacturing them limits their usage. Short and medium range rockets - like the ones being fired by Hizbullah right now - cannot be shot down and can be produced and fired in huge numbers.

Simply put, Israel cannot afford a neighbouring country being used as a missile launching platform in the coming war - especially one that cannot be made to stop these launches by a standard military action (see above). Considering the possibillity of Iranian non-conventional warheads being provided to Hizbullah - the magnitude of the risk becomes one that no country will ever accept and will go to any lengths to neutralise.

For everyone's sake, I hope Lebanon's goverment will be able to survive and take full control of the country, and that the Israely goverment do its best to assist it after the shooting stops.

Jim_TX said...

April:

Did I say entire Arab world? No.

There are agitators. The people in the region do not stop the agitators. They are in high positions of power. Presidents (Tyrants). They are the Mullahs in Iran. They preach hate destruction and death each and every day they live. They would cut your throat if they came across you not wearing a hijab. War is hell. We are forced into this war. I do not want this war. No one wants this war. The only people who want this war are people like Hamas, Narallah, the Mullahs in Iran, the radicals in Syria, the Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood. Etc.

BTW, do a little more reading on OKC bombing. The FBI up in OKC hides a lot of things. Find out about Tim McVeigh connection to Padilla and where Padilla (converted Muslim) went, Phillipenes where AQ had a stronghold. The OKC question isn't done and over with IMO.

John said...

This has been WW3 since Jimmy Carter showed how weak the west can be.

A failed president to be sure, but the WWII analogies don't fly here. With Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan those were classic nation-state wars, this is different. The shadowy kind of war fought by terrorism clouds things in people's minds and unless we have another 9/11 incident traceable to these countries I do not see US forces going into Iran or Syria. Our public does not have the stomach for it after Iraq. That could change very quickly, but at the present time no. Of course this doesn't rule out bombing raids on Iran over nukes, but that's all I can see. Nevertheless, in direct military action Israel is alone at the moment and probably will be for the duration.

Jim_TX said...

I submit to April:

www.thereligionofpeace.com

and google Wafa Sultan and watch her video.

John said...

I think the US knows war pretty well. It took a war to establish the US. We had wars with the Indians. We nearly had a war with Canada. We had a very bloody civil war. Spanish-American war, Mexican -American war. Texas had its own wars. WW1 and WW2. Korean War. Cold War. Vietnam. Desert Storm. Afghanistan and Iraq. We know war. Its in our history very much. We have sacrificed millions for others. One thing Americans do, is they boil it down quickly. Used to. They do what needs to be done and will bring Hell on Earth.

Yet all of these wars are distant memories for most Americans. We haven't had an attack on US soil, except for 9/11, since 1941. There has been no major conflict on US soil since the Civil War of 140 years ago. Vietnam still rings in the psyche of many Americans, unfortunately, and as can be seen with how controversial Iraq has become this weighs us down at times. No, I do not see the US getting involved militarily at this point.

peacefuljill said...

Mouse, thank you for giving voice to what has been rattling through my brain all day, as I've watched CNN. I'll add my prayers to yours.

Peace,
Jill
USA

John said...

Jhon you sell the Hizballah short. They have used american TOW missiles (How the hell did they get those?) in the past and they have rockets much more advanced than the Katyusha (Iranian made mostly). Maybe they have other things but make no mistake they are one of the world's best trained and armed guerilla/terois organizations. They ar fully supported by 2 nations and partially by others.

I'm not sure how I did that. They are an effective terrorist group and excel at low-intensity warfare. Yet they are not an army and all the bravado in the world will not change that the IDF is superior in this regard. Having said that, guerillas have been known to bring down even the most powerful of armies by sapping their will to fight. Vietnam comes to mind. As for the TOWs, beats me. Guess they stole them from somebody.

Jim_TX said...

john:

What do the Islamofascists wish to establish? A global Caliphate. A state. Islam, at its fundamental root, is not just a religion. It is a form of Law "Sharia" which many of its adherents wish to impose, look at Somalia today. Look at Afghanistan a few years ago. Look at Sudan. Look at Nigeria.

Heck, in Canada even, they are wanting to impose Sharia at the municipal level.

We should do everything in our power from letting such a nation-state come to existence. Why we are letting Somalia turn into Afghanistan II is very saddening. Bush, after 9/11 had guts. He has lost them. He still parlays with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We need to have a united front in this war, the wider war. Lebanon, its a lovely country with lovely people and I wish there was a way to fight this war that didn't endanger the lives of innocents. I really truly do. I just projecting this out. Iran wants and is seeking a nuclear weapon. They have shown they transfer their weapons to terrorist organizations and that organization can use the weapon and Iran is immune from reprisal. So, what happens if Iran gets a nuke, or... god forbid, they already do. You think they are going to sit on it. Or do you think they'll give it to Hezbollah?

What then?

John said...

The only people who want this war are people like Hamas, Narallah, the Mullahs in Iran, the radicals in Syria, the Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood. Etc.

Which makes the idea of nuking Mecca and Medina all the more ridiculous. Nothing would guarantee all-out war more than this.

Diana said...

Suha, Yair, Shmulik..

I'd like to move the discussion back to radar issue. For those of us who don't know anything about these matters, Suha is arguing that radar was NOT used on the Israeli ship?

Yair/Shmulik are both saying that radar had to be involved, and that Hizbollah doesn't have it, but the Lebanese army does?

Please clarify.

Thanks.

EdoRiver said...

I think I agree with "Iraq the Model" blog, Iran is trying to stay in control, pushing the buttons. But I can't see their advantage starting this situation now. If Hizbollah has gone off on their own, is this just a macho pride thing? What was or is their objective? Some internal power struggle thing? And Israel if it goes too far may be just creating more trouble for itself in the long run.

John said...

We should do everything in our power from letting such a nation-state come to existence.

Agreed, but nuking people out of fear isn't the answer. Look at Lebanon, for all its faults in failing to deal with Hezbollah, a budding democracy was still growing there (and hopefully still will). Democracy has made inroads in Iraq, Kuwait, and even Saudi Arabia (very small baby steps there of course). It won't happen overnight and perhaps not even in our lifetimes, but freedom will come evnetually to the Arab world.

Bush, after 9/11 had guts. He has lost them. He still parlays with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We need to have a united front in this war, the wider war.

Because he faces realpolitik in that there is only so much any president can do at one time. He lacks the support of a majority of the American people to make this a wider war. I wish it were otherwise, at least on the lack of support for certain actions, but such is reality. For many Americans 9/11 apparently wasn't enough of a wake-up call and the whole thing has become political. But that's a discussion for another forum. I'm just explaining why I do not believe the US will get involved in this conflict militarily.

So, what happens if Iran gets a nuke, or... god forbid, they already do. You think they are going to sit on it. Or do you think they'll give it to Hezbollah?

If such were to occur in the next 2 years, I doubt Bush would hesitate in sending in bombers. I doubt there will ground troops though unless it escalated. After 2008, I cannot say. It depends upon who wins the White House.

Shmulik said...

John you have shown a very interesting analysis bit I disagree on two points
1) We didn't end our relationship with France, We were a loyal vassal (we still teach french in some schools as a second language) until they betrayed us since they pulled out of Algiers and wanted to get better relations with the arabs (oil, perhaps).
2) I don't know if we will invade Lebanon but at least the israeli public (maybe the army knows better) considers the syrian army and especially the syrian airforce a joke. I don't think we will launch a preemptive strike against them unless we want to punish them directly for supporting the hizballah.
The article was dead on about what we think of "world opinion" We are so sick and tired of the world judging us with double standards that we really don't give a rat's ass about it. The only nation on earth that we respect (maybe because you pay some of our bills) it's opinion is the US.

Jim_TX said...

EdoRiver:

The man in charge in Iran fully believes in a war to end wars and wants to bring it about. He sees the acquisition of a Nuclear weapon as part of that charge. He has full support of the Mullahs. He claims he saw auras at the UN and that God told him this was the path to take. He will, by proxy, use his weapon against Israel.

Are we supposed to sit idly by and wait for it to happen?

We have precious little time. The price we pay for doing nothing now will be very great.

Jim_TX said...

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20051208-092511-8567r.htm

On Nov. 16, Mr. Ahmedinijad stated: "Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi." In all his public statements in Iran and abroad, Mr. Ahmedinijad's messages are on target: Iran under his leadership must rise as a global power to lead the world in the footsteps of the prophets. He clearly follows up with actions -- moving on to develop nuclear weapons.

Shmulik said...

Diana
The missile that was fired on our warship is called C-802 (2 missile were fired one sunk an egypetian merchant ship). This missile is a very advanced Chinese anti-ship missile that has been sold to Iran. It is persumed that Iran has supplied this missile to the Hizballah. This missile is RADAR operated. The Hizballah is not known to posses RADARs (although there is a slim possibilty they might managed to hide one which is rather difficult since RADAR radiation can be detected when they operate.
It stands to reason Hizballah has gained targetting information from Lebanese coastal RADARs. although it's a indirect evidence, since the RADAR station were destroyd no further missile attacks have occured.
Suha argues that maybe the missile was guided in anoher fashion. Although I am not a military expert I do believe that using GPS or triangulation to hit a moving target at sea, at night 16 kilometers from the shore is simply impossible. It's only a technical discussion, but it irks me Suha won't try to refute what I say an accuse me of being propogandist.
Hope this helps Diana,

Jay said...
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Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jay said...

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

1earth said...

The Lebanese army is paying a heavy price right because the army made it possible for the Iranians and Hezbollah to fire that anti-ship missile. At least 12 Lebanese soldiers killed and all of the coastal radar stations destroyed.

Shmulik said...

Jay I won't comment on US/Iraq but if you speak about Israel let me explain our policy. We were driven out of Lebanon because we didn't take the gloves off (we were an occupying force although for a decent reason). Now and this is what Nasarallah didn't understand, we fight for our homes and this is something completly different.
Our operation will both weaken Hizballah so you can deal with them and force your goverment to take action in the south.
BTW this is working, already seniora has agred to deploy the Lebanese army to the south.
If we wanted to "kill for the sake of killing" open an history book about WWII and look for "Dresden" or "Hamburg". Let me remind you today there are worse weapons at our disposal.
I know you and all Lebanon are deeply hurt by all of this, but it is Hizballah which uses you as human shields which is responsible (I am sure mistakes do happen but this is the price of war that you have started by not opposing Hizballah).

MGP said...

Instead of Israel bombing Lebanon and Hezbollah targets, this is what they should do - Line up all the IDF and IAF soldiers and invite teh Hizbastards into Isarel to kidnap them, that would elimante the kidnapping. Then as a reward Israel could free criminals and terrorist from jail. I'm sure that it would make for a peacful mideast.

Obvuosly that can't happen, and Israel must protect it's soldiers, can you iagine what would happen in Canada or Mexico would kidnap US soldiers??

Yes, it's a shame that Lebanon is getting bombed and people are dying, but you must sleep in the bed you make, if you're a country thathas a terrorist infrastructure, it must be dealt with. If Hizbastards will shoot rockets out of civillians homes, and apartments then they must be destroyed, I don't see any other option.

I pray that thsi all ends soon, and that when this is all done, we will only have to hear anbout Hizbulla and Hamas in history text book

Josiah said...


The article was dead on about what we think of "world opinion" We are so sick and tired of the world judging us with double standards that we really don't give a rat's ass about it. The only nation on earth that we respect (maybe because you pay some of our bills) it's opinion is the US.

Israel's opinion is the only foreign opinion many americans (myself included) respect. We percieve the rest of the world as either being strategically and militarily inept (canada, japan, etc) or hating us.

Shmulik said...

Thanks Josiah it is flattering:)
good night (almost morning really). I hope that all of you in Lebanon and Israel stay safe.

RAA said...

All Israeli posting here. All you are doing is regurgitating your arguments and reasoning over and over again. Besides comforting each others, you are not really providing any added value to the discussion. Frankly, all we have heard from you why you are doing what you doing and this sort of thing happened before and you kindly provided us with examples like Dresden, Hamburg , etc.
Surely, it has been very good to hear you out. We understand what is the situation on the ground , we understand the both the tactical and strategic argument that has been put forth. I hope you can come back with some more substantive to tlak about

Good night

Josiah said...

raa

the only problem is that the people blaming israel here are regurgitating the same old arguments and reasoning...

box said...
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box said...

what's the difference between israel and terrorists? a government address? i don't see the difference, truly.

zionrules16 said...

box,

Are you in Lebanon? The IDF must be incompetent, how have they not managed to hit you yet? Well there is always hope.

box said...

raa, agreed. i am sick of their excuses and justifications for the unjustifiable. and hamburg? they mean to connect this to jews of WW2 germany who were actually persecuted? these two events are not in the same universe.

it occurs to me as i watch reality while listening to the accompanying dialogue (2 completely different stories) - i wonder if any history has ever been true.

i have read here a couple times that "the world supports israel." this isn't true. the G8 today asked for an israeli ceasefire. american news does not reflect this - and israel's actions do not reflect this.

even as the news reports of attacks on tripoli, on tyre, on beirut - israeli spokespeople by the 100s seem available for our propagandist MSM to claim that they are hitting hezbollah targets only. it's as if they are "experimenting" with just how much cognitive dissonance we can handle.

i'm so sick of the propagandists here. not only here on this blog, but here in my country; on every political place on the net; on my news; in past-respected information outlets. i'm sick of it. i miss my country. i miss democracy. i miss the idea of truth winning out, and good prevailing in the end, and in love conquering all.

as for liars who dare speak for "many americans" (isn't it convenient how all of them claim we support israel? more propaganda) - lebanese, take heart. this is far from true. many of us know the bush agenda when we see it, and it makes us sick.

nasbined said...

I heard a joke "How many Jews can you fit in a car? 35, 2 in front, 3 in back, 30 in the ash tray."

Why did Nazis buy all the pizza eateries? They need bigger ovens for next time.

zionrules16 said...

"i wonder if any history has ever been true."

A thinly veiled holocaust denial. Box you are a propagandist. Your posts are like Hezbollah talking points.

box said...

"box, Are you in Lebanon? The IDF must be incompetent, how have they not managed to hit you yet? Well there is always hope."

what are you doing here? terrorizing people on the net? why do you respond so angrily... what do you expect people to think about your piece of shit government bringing the world to the brink of WWIII? "had to be done?" please. and when you can't justify the unjustifiable, you pull out the sympathy card, or the persecution card, or if you think that won't work, the "fuck you, i'll kill you" card.

you have quite a charming set of tricks. no wonder your country can't function.

nasbined said...

How do you make a zionist go crazy? Put him in a round room and tell him there's a penny in the corner.

nasbined said...

I think Lebanon needs to call for a holocaust investigation. The results of which will very likely undermine Israel's legitimacy as it is a nation built on lies.

box said...

"i wonder if any history has ever been true."

A thinly veiled holocaust denial. Box you are a propagandist. Your posts are like Hezbollah talking points.

oh - enlighten ME on what i meant - that was a thinly veiled holocaust denial???? HAHAHA

isn't that the HEIGHT of self-centeredness. never even thought to question the holocaust, freak.

box said...

oh, great. here come the anti-semites now? what a train wreck.

zionrules16 said...

It is functioning enough to own your fucking country. Do me a favor. Go outside look around and know who your fucking daddy is.

nasbined said...

I'm not an anti-semite. What did I say negatively about Arabs? Lebanese are Arab nation.

nasbined said...

Jews aren't even real Jews they are fake Khazars from Russia. Palestinians are the children of the positive Jews.

box said...

"zionrules" - talk to yourself, man. i'm sorry you feel the need to come to a site for lebanese and trash them. what a prick.

"nasbined" - take your medicine - no one cares about your freakshow.

hey - maybe the two of you could cancel each other out !!

nite, crazies!

stateroom said...

I don`t give a shit on Jew or not Jew.
But Hizbulah should be wiped out and i`m rooting for Iran to go help the Hiz. Then I want this to come true:

`The year she said this great battle would begin was the year 2000. This horrible and bloody battle, that would claim the lives of millions, would be ended by a nuclear attack on present day Iran. She predicted a “bomb of great power would fall on a city in Persia.” In Bernadette’s day, there was no Iran.`

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=11886

And just to get things into context, i`m not of any of the abrahamic faiths.

Suzanne said...

@Doha, Apparantly there is some data stating that some of the Lebanese army had supplied goods to Hezbollah. That's why they are being attacked.

box said...

oh, boy, stateroom - the ole' "prophesies of bernadette!" written in 2004, no doubt, by bill kristol. you can find him @ http://www.newamericancentury.org.

and just to get things into context, do you have any clue as to the heinous nature of the shit your posting? what WON'T you stoop to? sick, sick, sick.

box said...

suzanne - convenient, after-the-fact excuses. if this is the case, then why have israeli officials been claiming all day on international news sites that they had not hit anything besides hezbollah targets? who should i believe - them or you? which narrative would israel like me to believe today? which "works" best for their latest illegal onslaught?

nasbined said...

Box you son of a Jew too? They are still blood-thirsting. Now they call themselves Israelis. once upon a time zionists. everyone else called them Jews. no Israel know Peace

box said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
stateroom said...

box:

You call that heinous? 70 million of my people died on account of `heinous` teachings. You fanatic liberals laugh at that sort of thing these days. Sick you are even as you perpetuate the evil.
But then with Gods like Jimmy Carter and Edward Kennedy stay happy.
My people don`t forget - must be in the DNA or something. And I bet you still don`t know where i`m from.

stateroom said...

Box: no doubt, by bill kristol

What`s the matter? Dunno how to read? The link is there. Get someone to teach you how to cut/paste so you can read the whole thing. At least you`ll learn something.

PS: It`s not by bill kristol. How many wrongs do you average in a day?

stateroom said...

`Useful Idiots` should read this:

Ostensibly, the July 12 timeline provides historical context to the latest outbreak of hostilities. In fact, it distorts the history of conflict between the two sides, focusing almost exclusively on Israel's response to aggression from Lebanon while ignoring Palestinian and Lebanese assaults:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1145

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1145

Jad J said...
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Jad J said...

Goodmorning everyone, i feel guilty for sleeping while the rest of lebanon is getting bombed. :(

i Liked the comment made by James as it brought up the good in all of you and actually defined the upper limmit of all of u. Thats god :)

John:
yes the feeling in the state about a new front on iran isnt very high, but the media has been preparing the population for a long time, they've been targeting Iran for quite some time and that means only one thing!!! becoz if they intended to EVENTUALLY have peace with iran, it would upset lots of americans who by now, after the propaganda, do not trust iran and would consider Bush as another Jimmy Carter.

Considering the Radar guided rockets:
Suha is not defending Hizbullah, but the army, and i agree with her, coz if u live in lebanon, u'll know what is the state of the lebanese army, they are more like civil defence compared to Hizbullah. In addition, from a military point of view, a well organized guerilla organization would not rely on the Regular Army radar to fire missile, thats irrational, becoz those radars can: 1- be easily targeted, 2- the lebanese army wont risk it, 3- Sustainability, so i strongly believe that they did not use lebanese army radars, how they did it? there are plenty of ways to do it, remember, they've been preparing for 16 years for this.

I'm lookin at some footage now, i see a clear example of how the Military solution is not the solution for Israel: a man crying out loud after his 2 children died that he will kill as many israelis as he can. There u go, another suicide bomber recruit. and thats ONE example.

as for the attacks on the lebanese army, they are just pushing the lebanese government to redeploy the army to the south as fast as possible, its like moving them at gunpoint.

And no the Hizbullah are not firing missiles from between the buildings, as Suha said, this is a small country, many of us have relativesliving in the south, and rumours travel quickly, i/we havent heard of one such iccurance, NOT ONE. I used to spend half my summer vacation in the south, back when Israel was still occupying it, IN the buffer zone, and i had friends in the "Lahd Army", they never fired from between buildings, even their road booby traps were made on the outskirts and not inside the villages. and that is for 2 reasons: 1- Hizbullah militants are mainly from the south, and they would be using their own native villages to fire from? (absurd), 2- Hizbullah would looose a lot of the support from the Southern Population and therefore loose its mobility as the natives will be more suceptible to become Israeli informants. PS: Do not confuse the Hizbullah methods with the Palestinians, if those bastards use children human shields, Hizbullah doesn't. They try to keep a good image in the south for reasons explained above. So the IDF are targeting civilian buildings for different purposes.

NasbineD, Thats sick!!!! ure giving a good example for the "James" theory.
and no we're not Arabs, We're lebanese.

Suzanne said...

@box said...

"suzanne - convenient, after-the-fact excuses. if this is the case, then why have israeli officials been claiming all day on international news sites that they had not hit anything besides hezbollah targets?"

Very simple. Once the Hezbollah uses Lebanese military tools, these tools become Hezbollah targets.

Jad J said...

for those of u who still thinks that the FEW civilian casualties are a must, and that Hizbullah is hiding between civilians,
check this out... I really want to know what how is that feasible

http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3

Check all the pics

box said...

i typed this earlier, but had a huge typo in it: so i repost.

attention all who inundate the conversation nonstop with the clarification that it's hezbollah and not israel that's the real problem and real culprit:

i get it already. problem is - i'm not buying it. the facts of this atrocity belie any justification - no matter how many times you repeat... and repeat... and repeat... and repeat.... and repeat.

deVoss said...

It really does pain me to see the people of Lebanon suffering so dearly from the whims of these Near Eastern hegemons. Israel's gung-ho "self-defense" mentality has degenerated into a bloodthirsty assault on the innocent civilians of a sovereign nation. Iran and Syria are content to sit back and let Beirut burn so long as they can manipulate the political climate and keep the region in a constant state of fear. The Lebanese people constitute a forward-thinking, heterogenous society, spearheaded by a vibrant youth with a genuine desire for change. But alas, when the bombs start dropping, the uniqueness of the Lebanese nation and people is forgotten, and once again Lebanon is to serve as the firing range for political experiments. I'm really sorry for all of the bullshit you've had to endure, guys, and your safety is definitely in my thoughts. Here is to a sincere hope that one day, Lebanon's neighbors will acknowledge it as more than a mere pawn to their extremist visions.

Solomon2 said...

Why Israel hit Tripoli:

...the Israeli army said it had targeted radar stations there because they had been used by Hezbollah to hit a warship on Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah.

"The attacks ... are against radar stations used, among other things, in the attack on the Israeli missile boat, by Hezbollah in cooperation with the Lebanese military," the Israeli army spokesman told The Associated Press.


IMO, from the little I know of such matters, it is just possible, depending on the guidance system of the missile, that the Lebanese military did not know that their radar was being used to guide the missile to its target.

Naama said...

Dear bloggers
My name is Naama and I write for the Tel Aviv magazine.
I want to write about the connection that some of you has made, using the talkbacks as a new communication channel.
Can you explain what motivate you to establish a dialog with bloggers from the other side?
Do you believe this dialog can contribute for the efforts to end this war?
Is it important for you to read posts written by people from the other side?
Do you feel it’s important they will read yours?

I will appreciate any comment, especially from Lebanese blogger. You may contact me at
naamasa@012.net.il
or write a comment at my homepage

Shmulik said...

DAD J
It seems there is a hugh difference between what you say and what the public in Israel thinks it knows.
You say you have a small country and you would know such things, please tell me then where the Hizballah IS firing from?? I will be glad to call the IDF and redirect the fire. Are you saying souther Beirut (Daheia) for example, Isn't Hosting Hizbalah bunkers and offices?

Jad J said...

Shmulik, lets say ure a hizbollah officer, and u want to 1- fire missiles, 2- have high mobility be able to 3- replenish missiles after every salvo.

what u'll do is fire from the outskirts of a village, carry few missiles to have high mobility and hide the main cache somehwere near that village coz u cant just build a bunker ever 5 km in the forest.

if u can direct the IAF, i hope u can target Damascus though! or probably track down from where MANAR TV is broadcasting and track all the communications coming in and out from it! and u'll know where every hizbullah egghead is residing :D

Shmulik said...

JAD J
I am not saying they fire from inside a house, but near a house or a church still counts as using human shields.
The question is where do they STORE their weapon systems? where are their workshops and training centers?? I believe the villages in the south and Baal-Beck in the north (among other places is the place they do it).
I can't tell you every missile will hit true, I can't tell you no strike will rely on faulty intel.

Jad J said...

after rereading what i wrote here (and being distracted in the other comments section), i forgot to answer:
"Are you saying souther Beirut (Daheia) for example, Isn't Hosting Hizbalah bunkers and offices? "

Da7yeh is almost empty, there is nothing of importance there, the journalist are o nthe ground, everything is destroyed, but there is noone and nothing there. Offices destroyed, but i guess Hizbullah took care of that, even MANAR TV bldg that is completely destroyed is still browadcasting. and not from the underground for 2 reasons:
1- Dahyeh is at sea level, building bunkers there is not practical at all.
2- Lebanon is full of mountanious remote places where Hizbullah can build tougher bunkers, which the IDF should have intel on, or else what is an army all about!

Shmulik said...

Daheia is just an example that the Hizballah operates inside your population. I am sure they have remote bunkers but they also use your cities and infrastructure. I am not saying all of our attacks are against the Hizballah but most are.

wasalaam said...

Salaam.

Thank you for the updates. Better than BBC. Much better.
My prayers are with you

Javed
-hijabman.com

Diana said...

Shmulik,

Thanks for the explanation. I am no military expert, but when I read the wikipedia entry about the 802 I said to myself that Suha must be out of her mind to say: "It is also easy to attach a GPS chip to it and preprogram it to hit a specific target." What? You stick a chip onto a sophisticated guided missile and program it to hit a moving target in the ocean? I don't think so.

The reasoning that you & Yair displayed is impressive. What an irony: Israel is "clearing" South Lebanon so that the Lebanese army can take over. But elements in the Lebanese army are helping Hizbollah.

emental76 said...

I'm reading all of this stuff and can't believe. Many people still think US is sending their troops overseas just for "fighting for freedom" :))) Wake up.

I don't think US will get into this conflict unless there is something for them to gain. Do you think they went to Iraq just because of Saddam or democracy? Well, I don't think so. All they do is searching for 4 things: oil, money, dollars and bucks. (and maybe to destroy somebody who endangers them or their plans)

I'm really sorry for people having rockets falling on their houses and I'm angry to live in world, where people are less than money and power. I know... that's the way it always was.
The land of freedom.... the land of brave... ;) of course....
Land of brave is every country like Lebanon.
Not fat and dainty americans...

What are we talking here about?
What do we know about plans of governments of Lebanon, Israel/US, Iran ?

Jim_TX said...

Weapons are stored in the Mosques. I guarantee you that. Bomb the Mosques.

boston2palestine said...

i am shocked that no one thus far has discussed any of the historical or political reasons for this violence.

ahem: have we forgotten that israel is a colonial state, settled on the dust of 700.000 palestinian refugees who now number 6 million, many of whom reside in south lebanon and support hezbollah?

israel, like the united states, is interested in nothing short of keeping its colonies safe from the meddling native intruders who demand democracy and a respect for their human and political rights. no such respect is granted.

israel would not have problems in the neighborhood were it to give up its occupation of the west bank, relieve gazans from their miserable, open air prison, quit trying to intimidate the arab states surrounding it, and start honest negotiations with the palestinian government.

israel does not recognize hamas. why should hamas recognize israel? the problem in the middle east stinks of israeli hypocrisy.

unfortunately, now not only gazans and west bankers, but also lebanese civilians are paying the price for israeli racism (most clearly articulated by its jim crow legal system). they are also paying the price for olmert's arrogance.

pity.

Suzanne said...

@boston2palestine:

You just cannot negotiate with your killer about how you want to be killed. Period.

Furthermore, it has been recognised by Israel that the Hamas won. THey just do not want to negotiate with them, because of the just mentioned reason. Is that so difficult to grasp?

And hon, are you a native american? Jews have more right to live in that desert piece of land (yea, check the books and archeological sites), than non-native americans in the united states.

picimperfect said...

I feel terribly sorry for the Lebanese people who have been held hostage to one terrorist group or the other over all the years--also to Syria and now to Iran. But if you will not conquer your enemies, someone must. Now it is not just about Israel and Lebanon or Palestinians anymore; now the current battle is part of a global problem: the war Islamofascists are waging against all others--including Muslims who don't follow their vile ways. Unfortunately Hizbollah and their ilk use civilians as a shield-they even launch rockets from private homes; loss of "innocent" lives is therefore unavoidable.

zeinab said...

A letter from beirut i got from a friend of mine


"Last Tuesday , at 6:00 pm , I was sitting in a café in Verdun in West Beirut. Taxis, trying to pick up wealthy Arab tourists staying in the nearby hotel, were causing traffic jams. Kinda , my two year old angel , was having a great time coming up and down the escalator in the mall where the hotel and café are.
I was having a great time too. My best friend when I was 12 , Najwa , was visiting Lebanon after 26 years. Najwa’s father was the Moroccan ambassador to Beirut till 1980. I couldn’t believe we were meeting again. Her father was placed in several countries before they returned to Rabat. In 1981, my family and I left Beirut right before the 1982 Israeli invasion, and Najwa and I lost contact.
We sit in a café in Verdun , we both have tears in our eyes. We remember the old days, we tell the stories of the past 26 years , we laugh ,we cry, she tells me she’s surprised how much Beirut had changed .
Later in the evening , I picked her up and we went shopping , then we had some sushi and we agreed that the next morning we’ll take her seven year old boy and my Kinda to the beach.
Today is Tuesday. I’m in the office, watching villages being destroyed , burnt bodies, and trying to call the members of my family who are scattered all over the country seeking refuge in areas they think might be safer than others. This morning, I tried to get some cheese and tomatoes for breakfast for a friend who’s staying over after his house in the southern suburb was destroyed. I got the cheese , but the grocery shop has no vegetables. Beirut is under siege, Beirut will have nothing to eat or drink soon.
A colleague calls me from the nearby Sanayeh public garden , where people who fled the suburb are staying. “if you know of people who want to donate money , tell them to buy milk , diapers, bread and food and bring it over here”. I can find people who have money, but where would I get the bread from?
Last Tuesday seems so far away. Najwa managed to reach Rabat “at her own risk”. We still had so much to tell to each other. We might be able to do it soon. But one thing is certain : if she comes back soon, I won’t be able to take her to my village in the Bekaa, nor to the beach in Tyre. And Beirut will probably look the way it was some 26 years ago"

PenGun said...

In 1948 Zionist terrorists drove the Palestinians, a primitive agricultural society, from their lawful homeland into Gaza, Lebanon and what is known as the West Bank.

They appear to be unhappy with this.

This is a good lesson as to why we have secular societies instead of religious states.

The Israelies are now committing war crimes under the Geneva convention.

"Hi ho" Kurt Vonnegut's reaction to Dresden

PenGun