Monday, July 24, 2006

Rice in Beirut

Condi Rice is in Beirut, and has met with the Lebanese Prime Minister Seniora and is currently meeting with the March 14 leadership (the leadership that pushed for the Cedar Revolution last year).

Her most noted meeting was with the Speaker of Lebanon's Parliament, and head of the Amal Movement, Nabih Berri. Some time over the last week, Berri also declared himself as the intermediary of Hizballah with the International Community. The meeting with Rice lasted for 55 minutes, and according to reports, the two were not able to arrive at an agreement.

  • Rice demanded a cease fire, the withdrawal of Hizballah from land South of the Litani, the deployment of the Lebanese Army along with a beefed up UNIFIL contingent in a new Buffer Zone, and the release of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

  • Berri's position was a demand for an immediate cease fire and the launch of negotiations for an exchange of prisoners, as a first step to diffusing the conflict. He then said that disarming Hizballah, and deploying the Lebanese Army to the South would constitute a second, strictly Lebanese phase, that would play out in the National Dialogue Round Table.

Both sides of the conflict appear determined to stick to their positions. Neither really cares about the repercussions of the conflict on Lebanon's territories and its civilian population. Meanwhile the Saudis and Egyptians are supposed to be pressuring Syria to break away from the Iran-Syria-Hizballah-Hamas axis. I wonder whether and how they will succeed. What price will Syrian President Assad ask for abandoning the powers that he pretty much owes his life and regime to?

Some analysts and commentators are starting to claim that this conflict will last for months, as opposed to weeks. What makes it more complicated are the military-political dimensions intertwined in this conflict. Hizballah and Israel are trying to score points on the battlefield to increase their leverage on the negotiating table, while Iran seeks to enter the negotiating table as a "peace" broker, trying to claim a slice of the "war/peace" pie in this Arab Israeli conflict.

Moreover, the complication is further augmented by the demands of some powers to get at a "comprehensive" solution to the problem at hand. Does that mean that Lebanon's problem will be lumped with that of Gaza, or the whole Palestinian question? If that's the case, then the war will continue on for light years!

Rice and Berri at least agree that brokering a solution right now is about Lebanon. And that's a starting point. Let's see how things unfold from here.

95 comments:

GSH - Observer said...

I really don't see a problem in Gaza....and i don't think our issue is linked to that of Gaza other than HA choosing to link them...but fundemantely we have nothing in common. i don't like to mix the 2 issues and i hope our Politicians stay away from getting into this mess.

Bad Vilbel said...

I have never had much respect for Berri. And his position here simply adds to my lack of respect.

First off, the issue of disarming HA is no longer (probably never was) a Lebanese internal issue, considering Iran and Syria's involvment on one hand, and now Israel's direct involvment in the matter. Berri's insistance on this rethoric about the national dialogue and internal Lebanese issues is, at best, political hubris, and at worse, outright idiotic.

Secondly, we should be looking, at least, at making the civilian losses of life, and damage to the infrastructure count for SOMETHING, at this point. Going back to where we were prior to this crisis (national dialogue) is a slap to the face of everyone who's lost a loved one in the past 12 days. Those lives should not have been lost in vain!

GSH - Observer said...

correct, this is not a pure Lebanses issue anymore, but when this is all done we still need to have a dialogue with HA political branch and its followers, we can't ignore them.....

Berri....I may not agree with him or even like him, but i do respect him....he's one of the few real politicians in the area. again , i may not like where he stands.

I'll agree with you, things are going to be like they were 12 days ago.
Even if the Leb. want it to be as before the rest of teh world won't.

Mirvat said...

CAN YOU PLEASE PASS THE WORD?http://mirvat.blogspot.com/2006/07/america-can-stop-bloodshed-silent_24.html
thanks

Bad Vilbel said...

Dialoguing with HA as a political-only entity, because they kinda-sorta represent the Shia is perfectly fine with me. That's one thing. Talking about their weapons is another.

To me (and I say this as a Lebanese, who's horrified by the current destruction brought to my country), we need to learn one thing very clearly here: HA's weapons have got to go.

I don't care anymore if that means making life easier on Israel. The rethoric we've heard for years now of "Why should we do Israel a favor?" has been proven invalid and empty. By disarming HA we're doing OURSELVES a favor. And I don't care if it plays into the hands of Israel and the USA vis a vis the arab-israeli issue. We need to start looking out for Lebanon FIRST and the rest of the world be damned.

I am not in support of the Israeli response we're witnessing, but by God, since it's taken place already, let's have something positive come out of it.

John Smith said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
John Smith said...

bad vilbel,
I couldn't agree with you more.

GSH - Observer said...

bad vilbel;

correct, we can't be the only country in the arab-israeli issue....what issue?....when was the last time an arab country waged a war against israel? even syrai? hell, Syria not even fighting for its Gollan !

i'm going to say it loud and clear:
There's no more war between the arab and Israel....that's it plain and simple. the war was over in 67...now it's just rethoric....like dogs barking.

the only war is done by proxy using HA on our land while syria and iran are living in peace.

HA weapons MUST GO, the Leb. Army should do its duty and deploy in the south.

if HA insist on fighting let it move with its friend hamas ...or let it move to syria....
we've had enough crap....

Please Note: when i say HA i do not mean by any form or shape any religious group or section in Lebanon.

NassurDinHoga said...

There's something I don't get in Lebanon's inter politics - since when and why does HA give a damn about the palestinians?

And how comes Iran, loudly accused for causing this war for its own pan-islamic interests (at least here in Israel), is coming accross as a "peace broker"?!

box said...

gsh said: correct, we can't be the only country in the arab-israeli issue....what issue?....when was the last time an arab country waged a war against israel? even syrai? hell, Syria not even fighting for its Gollan !

i'm going to say it loud and clear:
There's no more war between the arab and Israel....that's it plain and simple. the war was over in 67...now it's just rethoric....like dogs barking.

exactly!

nassurdinhoga, on the other hand - step away from the koolaid :)

eran levi said...

Patience people of Lebanon, patience. Redemption is growing near and with each kilometer the IDF advances and with every Hezbollah terrorist dead, the weaker these militants are and the end of the war is more in sight. When Hezbollah’s forces in south Lebanon broken and their infrastructure destroyed and cleansed from the blood soaked land – the missiles and rockets that are fired blindly into Israel killing Jews and Arabs alike will stop – thus braking Hezbollah’s only tactical power and forcing a real change and true opportunity for new terms of stability between Lebanon and Israel. Peace will come at last and Syria and Iran will have to face their defeat on this front against the sane and peace wishing nations of the Middle East and lick their wounds – until the next round of this war on terror.

shlomi said...

bad vilbel
the things you wrote give us hope that oneday we will live in peace

i hope that the majority of the people in lebanon agree with you
and finally you get rid of the hiz'
that will makes your lives and our lives better and easier

NassurDinHoga said...

Ha! So the deadline of the war depends on the depth of IDF's entrence into Lebanon...

I'm still trying to figure out, counting casualities "on both sides" (who am I fooling here, I'm counting only Israeli lives) whether that's good or bad news.

Just don't expect too many rice throwing down there Eran.

dick said...

There was a very insightful post today on Ugly American. The poster pointed out that it's only negotiation when both sides want peace. When one side doesn't want peace - it's appeasement. He cites the Chamberlain-Hitler 'peace in our time' accord as an example. Rings true to me.

My point is: I'm sure that the Israeli and Lebanese governments (as presently constructed) would have little trouble in reaching a peace accord. But Israel would be crazy to negotiate anything with HA - which is obviously committed to the destruction of Israel (as is Hamas). This would be appeasement. In fact, there can't be any peace (beyond a tactical ceasefire) while HA remains strategically relevant. By the same token, Iran could never broker such an agreement since it too presumes to "wipe Israel off the map".

The only hope for Lebanon is that Israel pushes HA back quickly, and that Dr. Rice broker a peace-keeping force that has some real effect (not like the ludicrous UN force that's there at the moment).

Meanwhile, my heart goes out to all the Lebanese people who are suffering so much. I'm with gsh-observer: it's time for other countries to stop sacrificing the Lebanon as a pawn in their game, while they sit back in safety and comfort. Lebanon for the Lebanese! Peace, not ceasefire!

Bad Vilbel said...

Eran,

Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple. The problem with fighting guerilla type warfare (as opposed to traditional warfare) is that you can't ever completly root out these guys. Look at the Palestinian territories. How many years has the IDF been "rooting out terror" over there? No solution in sight.
I do understand where you're coming from, but ultimately, I don't think the IDF can completly root out HA. They'll have to stop at some point, and let a diplomatic solution take hold (probably one involving this international force we've heard about lately, and the Lebanese Army).
Having said that, I do think that the IDF was instrumental in forcing this issue and i think THAT (not actual military victory) was the ultimate goal. Had the IDF not intervened, the status quo would've continued. By intervening, Israel has essentially forced the international community to step in and help Lebanon take control of its own borders (which Lebanon was unable to do on its own).

Shlomi,

I think a large number of people in Lebanon do ultimately agree with my endgame. The problem is that a lot of people get lost in the rethoric and in the here and now and have trouble looking at the future, when bombs are falling over their heads, or when their day to day lives are impacted as it is today.
Every military conflict has its visionaries. People willin to look past the here and now. But every conflict also produces countless new "radicals" on both sides. People who can't get past having lost a loved one, say (who can blame them?). Which is why my hope is that this doesn't drag on too long, because it will end up alienating larger parts of the Lebanese population. At some point, people forget "who started it", and start focusing about the guy who's bombing them right now as the bad guy, regardless of who started what, or who's in the right. You know?

Robert said...

If the people of Lebanon don't want to keep dying and starving then maybe you should consider wasting a Hezbolah member or demanding your government rid your nation of Hezbolah. If you don't then you deserve literally anything that happens by the people of Israel doing you and your governments work for you.

Bad Vilbel said...

Robert,

Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where things were that simple...

By your logic, I suppose Saudi Arabia deserves to be nuked for Bin Laden.
I suppose the USA deserved 9-11 simply because SOME people in the US hate muslims and the US government hasn't gotten rid of them yet?

I guess Morocco deserves to be turned into a wasteland for having produced several of the Madrid terrorists?

I guess Pakistan should be nuked too. Since they haven't turned Osama over yet and we all know he's hiding out in the mountains over there. Why hasn't the US invaded Pakistan?

Living in a world of black and white, and absolutes must be darned easy. Too bad the rest of us live in reality.

GSH - Observer said...

Guys;

the days of "rooting" and "eliminating" are over.
no one can "eliminate" the other anymore...I don't know if this is good or bad, but that's how it is.

Israelies can think they way they want, and they can look at this issue from their view. but for us the Lebanese we can't and won't ignore HA followers.
ignoring such a big number of people de-stabilize the country and the socio-political structure in the country....give it some time and we'll have a civil war in our hands.
all lebanese have to be taken into account, and all lebanese should be under the law and under one country and one army....

Achillea said...

Neither really cares about the repercussions of the conflict on Lebanon's territories and its civilian population.

Actually, we do. But we care about the long-term repercussions as well as the short-term ones, and we're not going to sacrifice the former for the latter.

We're not enjoying all this bloodshed, believe me. A few years ago, my mother was diagnosed with cancer. She spent weeks after surgery in chemotherapy nauseated and throwing up on an almost daily basis. I hated every second of it, but I didn't try to stop it. Without it, painful and ugly as it was, she would have died.

Hezballah is a cancer in Lebanon's belly.

Bad Vilbel said...

Good analogy, Achillea.

shlomi said...

LEBANON THROUGH ISRAELI EYES:

(its my opinion but i think most israelis will agree with me)

i think that your country and your people are being used by iran and syria who try to achieve their goals by activate the hiz' on your land pretending its serve lebanon's interest .
syria could easly host the hiz' in its area but it comfortable for Asad and co' that lebanon is the one who is beaten and not his country.
(it probably was more justfy if the IDF was attacking syria )

but it does not mean that you lebanese are clean from guilt,
there is a lot of cooperation between your goverment and the hiz'
and the fact that they hold seets in the parlament although its a terror organization shows that there is a lot to fix .

to me it seems that the presence of the hiz' in lebanon did not disturb you so much (at least before this war started).

finally
when i look forward i think that there is a great potential that we will live in peace (even sooner than we think) .and that main factor that prevent us to achieve it is iran-syria's representative-the hizbolah

shlomi said...

gsh-observer
on the one hand you say that u dont want a civil war (1)
on the other hand u say that lebanon should have one law and one army (2)

do you believe that the lebanon public can convince or force the hiz' to accept (2) without causing (1) ?

Bad Vilbel said...

Shlomi,

For the most part I tend to agree with your last comment.

The Lebanese definitely have some responsibility to share in all this mess. And I don't mean just today, and just the HA. The mere fact that we had a civil war (which again, was other countries using Lebanon as a battleground) speaks to that effect. Lebanese people are still a very divided lot (by the very nature of how the country was put together, and the various sects it holds). And that makes for GREAT material for foreign powers looking for proxies.

As for HA being in the government, that's where this thing has to be viewed from the internal Lebanese viewpoint of how our political system is built. HA, with the money they got from Iran, spent the majority of the past 10-15 years providing for the Shia community in the south, when no one else would (including the Sunnis and Christian elites in the rest of the country).
We both know why HA did this, as a way to buy legitimacy with the Shia. And we have to accept the reality that whether we like it or not, they succeeded. They bought the shia's loyalty by providing healthcare, education, whatever...
That is something we have to deal with, internally, to win the Shia's loyalty back to the Lebanese State.

But you have to understand (not approve, mind you) as to HOW these guys ended up in parliament and in government.

Bad Vilbel said...

Shlomi said "do you believe that the lebanon public can convince or force the hiz' to accept (2) without causing (1) ?"

BINGO!

THIS is why Lebanon was unable to disarm HA, even though we all knew it was the right thing to do.

Hopefully, Israel has now forced this issue and we'll have some way to disarm HA without ending up in a civil war (A civil war, which btw, would not benefit Israel either).

GSH - Observer said...

shlomi;

to me it seems that the presence of the hiz' in lebanon did not disturb you so much

maybe some people where not, but others were and still are disturb and they where unable to do anything (Syria was in lebanon).

as for convincing HA to lay it's weapon without a civil war i think the prevailing climate will help doing that. keep in mind this will also require Israel's cooporation.

1. Syria is out of lebanon
2. the gov. majority is against the military presence of HA.
3. US, EU, Russia, main arab countries are against HA military presence also and they will assist our army to take over the south.
4. we need Israel to release Leb. prisoners and leave Shibaa (if it is proven to be ours)

HA won't like it, but we can't accept a "country inside a country" situation anymore.

the Gov. was working on that since the Syrian left. but no doubt about it this war has accelereated the process.

NassurDinHoga said...

Shlomi said:
" and the fact that they hold seets in the parlament although its a terror organization shows that there is a lot to fix
to me it seems that the presence of the hiz' in lebanon did not disturb you so much (at least before this war started ".

Lebanon is (trying to be) a democracy.
Like it or not, HA actually represent some people up there in the north.
Hell, even in our shiny Israel we have citizens openly supporting HA! (We've just had a sad example in Nazerath).

BTW, if I were a Lebanease, I woulnd't care less about how my country is seen in Israeli eyes.

Bad Vilbel said...

Nassur,

You are correct. Lebanon is trying to be a Democracy. It's only been a year since Syria left (leaving behind agents and proxies, mind you). We were still in the process of figuring out this democracy business. And you are correct HA does represent some people here (just like Israel has certain extremist movements as well).

As for your point about "if I was Lebanese, I wouldn't care less about how my country is viewed in Israeli eyes." That's easy to say when you're in a strong powerfull country.
When you're weak, you have to care how others perceive you. You have to rely on others for aid (so you dont wanna be seen as hostile, or terror-friendly). You have to rely on goodwill and peaceful intentions (so you don't get bombed). So yes, it is important what others think of us. Sadly. We can't afford not to care.

seeker said...

"...if I were a Lebanease, I woulnd't care less about how my country is seen in Israeli eyes."

If there is anything I learned from this blog it that

caring is the first step of communication,
it aids in bridging gaps.

I didn't find any isolated obstinacy that led anywhere.

eran levi said...

This is what happens when armed militia joins democratic election - the same thing like the Palestinian mockery elected government.

There should be a reasoning that as long as Hezbollah is an armed militia - they should be out of the government!

What you need is a strong cry against Hezbollah - without this, they will just keep going and this war will go on and on. The Lebanese people will crumble to dust long before the Israelis I promise you.

Either you face Hezbollah now - or prepare to face an ongoing military action that will decimate Lebanon far worst than any confrontation with Hezbollah's terrorists.

stillruleall said...

bad vilbel:
"Hopefully, Israel has now forced this issue and we'll have some way to disarm HA without ending up in a civil war"

It sounds like you think it was a good thing Israel invaded...

On CNN they had many Lebanese talking about how wonderful HA is, and how they have great social services, etc. I hope that is the view of a small minority.

Stan said...

What we need is for the Israeli government to stop giving Hizbullah the excuse to fight:
STOP invading our airspace on an almost daily basis
STOP shooting at our sheperds and kidnapping our fishermen
RETURN our prisoners of war
LIBERATE Shebaa farm

GSH - Observer said...

eran levi;

you sounds like a teen-age with a steroid rush on a power trip....you've been blogging for quite some time with nothing new to say....calm down or have a contructive mature input.

good night to all the rest....hope tomorrow will be a better day

NassurDinHoga said...

stan, I personally give you my word of honour: I will never kidanap a fisherman again. As to the rest of your demands - it's beyond me.
I can only vote our non-sheperds shooting party.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
eran levi said...

Prisoners of war? You mean the few Lebanese terrorists sitting in Israeli prison for the intentional murder of entire families? I'm afraid you are delusional my friend. Either give up this claim or feel free to shut up and let the fighting continue until we settle this in blood.

Shebaa farms? Isn’t this Syrian territory? What does it got to do with you? Or does the Hezbollah also become the 'protector of Syria' along with its already busy titles of 'protector of Lebanon' and 'protector of the Palestinian people'. and I'm afraid Syria has not earned the right to negotiate any land trade or peace negotiation since their last attempt at obliterating Israel from the face of the earth, now they lost all claim for land lost to them while fighting wars they initiated in order to destroy Israel.

As for invading Lebanese land and airspace - maybe if you would have taken care of your own terrorist organization form home - you wouldn't have found yourself in this mess in the first place. This assault is aiming to break Hezbollah - not Lebanon. Since you are letting this Terror organization hide in your land - you should have considered it becoming a battle zone earlier!

I guess as long as you don't take responsibility over your own land and the doings of your people we have nothing to talk as you are irrelevant!

nasbined said...

Seeker you dick you are a Jew when have your kind ever returned money you stole?

Israel must leave all of Lebanon and free all Lebanese and Arab prisoners if it wants mercy when its military can no longer save it.

seeker said...

I usually appriciate your point of view (Well, when you decide to grant us with one) but you didn't answer me the question this time.

How can Syria be returned to Lebanon.

Stan said...

nassurdinhoga, the only reason why the Lebanese government accepted to acknowledge Hizbullah as a resistance movement was because Shebaa was still occupied and Isrealis refused to liberate Samir Kuntar and the other prisoners. Take away those excuses, Hizbullah will loose any internal cover.
Why the Iraelis refused to give up that freakin piece of land in 2000 is beyond my understanding. If they also think that samir kuntar is a baby killer as Israelis often claim and should not be released then excecute him for god sake and hand us his body. JUST STOP GIVING HIZBULLAH AN EXCUSE TO FIGHT

eran levi said...

you see nabined - because people like you the rest of your nation suffers (if you are indeed Lebanese - or perhapes a Syrian or Iranian that conviniantly came here to warmonger).

as long as terror supporters like yourself exist, there will always be suffering. maybe when battle will come to your doorstep and the IDF will blow your house because some militants took hold of it, you'll reconsider what is best - your "Arab" Ego or peace and stability in the region.

for the likes of you I will not shed tears for their passing.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Stan said...

Levi dude,
Wether Shebaa is syrian or Lebanese is not a concern to you. Its not yours to begin with.
As for the prisoners, you can call them terrorists baby killers for all I care. If you dont want to release Kuntar, just kill him and send us his body bag. I am sure you wouldnt mind that.

Stan said...

Seeker, If Israel were smart they would liberate Shebaa at once and let Lebananese and Syrians fight over it.
Unfortunately your governemt is as dumb as it gets. They are just pushing the people to hate them even more.

NassurDinHoga said...

nasbined, have you ever been to the south of Lebanon? Would you find me the places Israel must leave? Or you're one of those sitting in NY and loudly speaking in the name of Lebanon?

Bad Vilbel said...

I was going to respond to some of the questions in here, but the discussion just devolved into idiotic namecalling again....

eran levi said...

Stan - we don't execute people we already captured, we have a certain limit of morality. Unlike say... certain Palestinian terror organization I know of with the habit of kidnapping and murdering their victims.
And again for the last time – see my last post regarding who really had claim over the Shebaa farms and lost them.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bad Vilbel said...

stillruleall said "It sounds like you think it was a good thing Israel invaded...

On CNN they had many Lebanese talking about how wonderful HA is, and how they have great social services, etc. I hope that is the view of a small minority."


Please read what i posted earlier: HA, with the money they got from Iran, spent the majority of the past 10-15 years providing for the Shia community in the south, when no one else would (including the Sunnis and Christian elites in the rest of the country).
We both know why HA did this, as a way to buy legitimacy with the Shia. And we have to accept the reality that whether we like it or not, they succeeded. They bought the shia's loyalty by providing healthcare, education, whatever...
That is something we have to deal with, internally, to win the Shia's loyalty back to the Lebanese State.


There are those who view HA as a benefactor, for the reasons i stated above. I would argue this is a view that's exclusive to one community alone: The Shia in the south of Lebanon.
It is up to us, with help from the rest of the world to win these folks back from the lies and deceit of HA.

stillruleall said...

We have already offered Lebanon Samir in exchange for Ron Arad. We have been waiting for him to be returned for twenty years.

We don't give HA an excuse to fight. We were sitting peacefully when our cities got rained on by rockets and our soldiers were taken. Following which sort of logic does it make sense to let an enemy shoot rockets at you and sapture your soldiers without fighting back?

As far as exchanging prisoners, that is one of the dumbest things Israel has ever done, and I'm glad we finally had the balls to say no. Prisoner exchanges encourages HA and the PA to kidnap more of our soldiers. If they knew we would never negotiate, they wouldnt be encouraged to try and take them.

Stan said...

Levi dude,
To me, An isaeli lecturing about morality is like a prostitue giving a lecture about safe sex. They just dont go together.
As for your question, as I said its none of your concern. Your concern as a peace loving jew is to live in security in your promised land.
Hizbullah said they will keep attacking till they liberate shebaa. So you have 2 options:
1) Wage a loosing war against Hizbullah and push the region to more extremism and create more ennemies along the way.
2) Give up a tiny pice of land that is not yours to begin with and let the Lebanese and Syrians fight over it. At the same time, you take away Hizbullah' last bargaining card to gain credibility internally and you get one close closer to implementing UN resolution 1559 without loosing a single drop of precious jewish blood.
History will prove that you chose the wrong path.

eran levi said...

"stillruleall said...
As far as exchanging prisoners, that is one of the dumbest things Israel has ever done, and I'm glad we finally had the balls to say no. Prisoner exchanges encourages HA and the PA to kidnap more of our soldiers. If they knew we would never negotiate, they wouldnt be encouraged to try and take them. "

Truer words could not have been heard. This is the part were almost all Israelis show their united support. No more prisoners exchange! We say no to extortion and terrorism. Kidnappers will not only be ignored from now on - they will also suffer the full strength of Israel!

NassurDinHoga said...

bad vilbel, I have a question totaly out of this "discussion":

When I was in Bint-Jbeil, it was very pro Israeli, and we felt very safe there. Actually I recall it to be Chrestian. Marun-a-Ras wasn't as friendly, but we drove through it on a daily basis.

What happened there after IDF withdrew?

By the way your comments about HA's humanitary actions make perfect sense to Israeli ears - this is exactly what HAMAS did to take power in GAZA.

stillruleall said...

"There are those who view HA as a benefactor...The Shia in the south of Lebanon."

So how did Israel get screwed with all the Shia living in the South!! The Sunni should move there, and we can both have some quiet for once!!

Stan said...

Seeker its not true. Your army generals allready had plans to move from Shebaa and stop the incursions. Check Haaretz article in yesterday's issue. Ita found there. I will try to find it for you.
Your government was just dormant about it, totally ignoring the Lebanese front. Once it hit them right in the face, instead of acting wisely they took all the wrong decisions just to quench your thirst for blood and revenge.

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Stan said...

nassurdinhuga
Nothing happened to Bint Jbeil. Its just pathetic Israeli media who is trying to portray it as "HIzbullah's terror capital" for the sake of propaganda and achieving false victories.
I am Lebanese and I come from the South and I never heard of Bibnit jbeil being Hizbullah's capital

stillruleall said...

Good night people. For all we disagree, there is a lot to be said about our ability to talk freely while our countries are at war.

Stan said...

Kind of like the Israeli naval ship being lightly damaged :)

seeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lirun said...

i dont care who has done what.. my friends up north wont host me because they fear for my safety if i visit them and at the same time my lebanese friends cant find some of their family members and friends.. this is intolerable in the 21st century.. this violence is barbaric primitive and vile..

israel is one of the most sophisticated nations on earth.. i cant believe that we cant find smarter ways..

this is so not "or lagoyim"

wishing peace to all

lirun
tel-aviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

eran levi said...

"Stan said...
1) Wage a loosing war against Hezbollah and push the region to more extremism and create more enemies along the way."

Are you trying extortion? Are you threatening us with brute force to give you a piece of land that was never yours?

And what loosing war? Please update on recent headlines, you can find titles like "Israel is pushing into south Lebanon" etc...

Listen Stan, our point is very very clear: loose the "you owe me" attitude - it won't work. We left Lebanon's soil 6 years ago - yet Hezbollah didn't let go; now I'm afraid they will have to understand the hard way that negotiation is a much safer way to achieve anything with Israel :)

And as for Lebanon, I hope it becoming a battle zone will teach the Lebanese a lesson for the future regarding national responsibility.

your stubborn opinion and insisting on siding with Hezbollah's bloodbath by justifying it are making me and the rest of the Israelis even more certain that we were foolish enough in the past to show weakness in front of extortion... but no more - now embrace yourself, Israel has just begun teaching the Middle East yet another lesson about what happens to those who play with fire and resort to violence - they get burned! With loads of bombs...

Bad Vilbel said...

Nassur,

I don't have an answer based in fact. I have been living abroad for about 20 years so I am not too familiar with Bint Jbail and what happened there after 2000.

I would speculate what seems to be common sense. After Israel pulled out in 2000, HA kinda took over the entire south (christian parts included, and not always with the acceptance of the civilian populace).

I don't particularly think Bint Jbeil is any more or less pro-Hezbollah than anywhere else. Remember, a lot of what we hear in the media is propaganda too.


And you are correct in that the 'social services" provided by both Hamas in Gaza and HA in South Lebanon have a lot to do with why people support them. And guess what? When these same hospitals and schools are bombed by Israel, HA gets to tell these folks "See? Israel is teh bad guy. They don't want you to have schools and hospitals." thus perpetuating the hatred.

This is why it is very important to look past the current conflict and start thinking about solutions to the social fabric of Lebanon.
This is also why it would've been so hard for the Lebanese government to uproot HA on its own, without a civil war ensuing.

People who keep repeating "The Lebanese government should've taken care of HA." keep missing this point.

I'll make the following analogy (to a degree): How easy is it for the Israeli army to take on the Settlers in the West Bank without risking some form of civil war?

eran levi said...

"Bad Vilbel said...
I'll make the following analogy (to a degree): How easy is it for the Israeli army to take on the Settlers in the West Bank without risking some form of civil war? "

Also very true - those who demands Israel to confront the settlers should call out for the Lebanese govt. on the same note to confront Hezbollah - or shut up you hypocrites.

NassurDinHoga said...

Very easy :-)

Thank's for your response.

I think the "missing point" is that "uprooting HA" is more a process than an action. A long lasting, lives-costly process.
Sadly, we're all part of it now.

Arabgirl said...

To all the israeli bloggers. I would like to make a fictive analogy with the current situation to help you understand us better and understand the vicious circle and the tragedy we're living in.
You do have ultra-orthodox jews among you right? We all know that their political agenda is infinitely more radical than the rest of the Israeli people who are more moderate, even some of them leftists. Now let's say that they are armed, more than the regular army. See, your country has been in wars for more than 30 years and extremists were able to have very sophisticated weapons.
Now those ultra-orthodox jews wage a war on behalf of your country without your consent and against all your hopes and dreams for a better country.
Do you think it is that easy to tell the rest of the israeli to go and fight those jews? Kill them because they are abducting your country and making it their playground, responding to outside forces' agenda.
Wouldn't you have tried to give them 2 seats in the government and tried to convince them nicely to disarm.
Or else, you would ask the international community to help you remove all the arguments they hold to keep those weapons.
And knowing those ultra-orthodox jews, you know that they will fight fearlessly. We saw them how they were leaving those Gaza settlements. We also saw how the regular Israeli soldiers were crying while they were forcing them to empty their houses.
You cannot beat extremism with force, violence. You are only destroying the regular, peace-loving people.
Don't ask us to kill our fellow lebanese coutrymen, help us win them with diplomacy. Free those political prisonners or better, give them to the local authorities- lebanese jails are even worse, and get out of Shebaa farms.
I hope I can see an end to this tunnel.

Stan said...

Levi dude, I am not threatening you. I am just drawing conclusions from past experiences while you are stuck in your tiny time bubble
I will tell it to you bluntly:
-Arabs will never understand the language of violence. You can keep bombing us with your smart missiles, you can ravage all our villages etc..., we will rebuild and we will strike again and make sure that you never live safely. We dont yield to violence, you do. I am not justifying Hizbullah's bloodbath but unfortunatey its the only way to get what we want (since diplomacy never works with you guys) which ironically enough is exactly what you want: Live safely and with dignity in a sovereign state.
-Not waging a war is not a sign of weakeness or giving up to extortion. There are other more effective more diplomatic ways to achieve what you want without spilling a single drop of blood. I allready gave you an alternative scenario but you are refusing to listen.
Just as a side note, there is something that always annoys me when talking to Israelis. They have a severe amnesia syndrome. Hizbullah latest endeavor did not happen out of the blue. Many incidents happened before that including shooting an unarmed sheperd and kidnapping a lebanese fisherman from his boat. Thats without including the daily incursions of your jets in our airspace. Now offcourse you are gonna blame Hizbullah and say that they started it and all that bla bla...well guess what just because you didnt hear about something doesnt mean it didnt exist. Just dont come here and blame us for something we have been threatening to do since a long time.

Achillea said...

Take away those excuses, Hizbullah will loose any internal cover.

This is a pipe dream, Stan. Even if all Hezballah's fabricated grievances were met, they would just gin up more, all the while strutting around making more converts with their bright, shiny 'heroes of Lebanon' street cred. And, when they decided they didn't need to let Lebanon maintain the fiction of self-determination any more, they would simply take over. Hezballah is a bully and bullies don't need excuses.

Lebanon has made mistakes. Some with good intentions, some with bad, some in simple ignorance or inability. This one seems to be a confluence of all three, with a bit of sheer bad luck thrown in. People make mistakes, so do countries. It's a part of life. When you make one, you can rail and cry and try to deny it ... or you can deal with it.
1) Face up to it.
2) Try to fix it as best you can, even if that means asking for help.
3) Extract whatever positive you can from it.
4) Take steps to prevent making it again.

Achillea said...

arabgirl,

Israel already faced that very situation in the Altalena case. You can read all the details here, but I'll summarize:
In June of 1948, when Israel was still a weak, fledgling state in a sea of enemies, a ship called the Altalena arrived loaded with weapons, ammunition, and hundreds of Jewish Irgun militiamen. When they were forbidden to operate independently and instructed to turn over their weapons to the IDF, they refused. Ben-Gurion had the ship sunk. In doing so, he risked civil war and cost Israel men and munitions she sorely needed. Still, he did it, because he knew something then that Lebanon is learning at great cost now -- a sovereign government cannot, absolutely cannot allow an independent armed group to operate in or from its territory. Even if that group claims to have or actually has goals similar to the government's. Even if shutting down that group is unpopular or outright dangerous. The government that fails to do so is just a fiction.

Stan said...

achillea, I will assume you are Israeli and you have no clue of the complex dynamics of Lebanese politics.
Hizbullah understands well that they cant go on holding their arms indefinitely. Thats why they started engaging in politics after Israeli withdrawal.
If you have been following lebanese politics, you will understand that they are clinging to the Shebaa farm and the Lebanese prisoner issues to justify their arms and gain credibility and endorsement from the government and people. Take away those and they will loose any "lebanon approved" excuse to hold on to their arms. Offcourse, you will hear them calling to liberate Jerusalem from time to time, but thats regular empty arab sloganeering. They know its a red line and it can never be achieived. Its kind of similar to some rabbis calling for the Land of Israel to extend from The Euphrate to whatever which corner.
The Lebanese governement is weak and it cannot face Hizbullah by itself, especially with Israel giving them the pretext to keep resisting. If you think your latest war will help fix that, you are terribly wrong. You just weakened the governement and the army you call to replace the Hizb even more and you have created more hatred and more bitterness among shiites , the main endorsers of Hizbullah. The only "good" outcome I see from this war is that you have allowed Olmert to stain his hands with innocent Lebanese bloods which is sort of a tradition for Israeli PM's, from Sharon to Peretz to Rabin ....

Bad Vilbel said...

Good story Achillea.

Unfortunately, that was 1948 and it was ONE ship. It's far easier to deal with ONE ship than it is with a whole militia who is already on the ground and who is armed by a couple of foreign countries (Iran/Syria).

Ben Gurion was wise to do what he did at the time. But he also didn't have 30 years of foreign occupation that had infiltrated every aspect of society (as the Syrian and the Hezbollah have) to contend with.

Your point does stand though. Lebanon IS learning this lesson today.

Bad Vilbel said...

Stan, I beg to differ re: "The only outcome of this war..." comment.
I think Israel, whether we like it or not, has actually forced the hand of HA and forced both Lebanon and the international community to take care of the HA problem ASAP.
This was not happening prior to these events. The Lebanese government was unable to move against HA, and things would've stayed exactly as they were for a long time.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like for one bit that my country is being destroyed, or that people are being killed. But let's hope that this mess DOES accomplish something that wasn't gonna happen otherwise: The disarming of HA.

Achillea said...

-Arabs will never understand the language of violence.

Arab society is based on understanding absolutely nothing else. It took being beaten absolutely bloody to teach Jordan and Egypt not to mess with Israel, no 'striking again' from them. And there's a lot of the usual fiery bombast from Syria, but you'll notice they haven't actually done anything. The IDF taught them their place years ago and now they're just a yappy little dog that barks its fool head off while hiding under the couch. In fact, none of your 'fearless Arab brothers' have exactly been rushing to aid the 'noble resistance' against those scary Zionists. They have, in fact, thrown the lot of you under the bus rather than receive another spanking by the IDF. Even the Hez in northern Lebanon are showing a distinct reluctance to head south. And here you are making a fool of yourself ranting about your indomitable will. Don't kid yourself, Arabs understand the language of violence just fine.

ulrich speck said...

@ Bad Vilbel

Leben Sie in Bad Vilbel? Wenn ja, würde ich gerne mal einen Kaffee mit ihnen trinken, wohne nämlich nebenan. Bin Journalist und Blogger (blog.zeit.de/kosmoblog).

ulrich speck said...

@ Bad Vilbel

PS: Meine e-mail ist ulwisp@yahoo.com

Achillea said...

Unfortunately, that was 1948 and it was ONE ship. It's far easier to deal with ONE ship than it is with a whole militia who is already on the ground and who is armed by a couple of foreign countries (Iran/Syria).

True, and I didn't mean to say I felt the situations were exactly the same. I was just trying to demonstrate to arabgirl that it's not like the Israelis have never considered the situation in that light. There are more modern and probably closer equivalents in the Israeli government's treatment of the Kach/Kahane movement, but it also has never enjoyed the support of more than a tiny fraction of the population -- certainly nothing like Hezballah's base.

At this point, the woulda-coulda-shoulda blame for Hezballah's presence and strength is pretty much spilt milk. It will matter later, when it comes time to prevent it happening again, but right now we need to deal with the fact of their presence and strength. Everything I've read and seen strongly suggests that, militarily, the Lebanese Army isn't strong enough to take Hezballah. Estimates of the exact percentages vary, but a significant proportion seems to either sympathize with or fear Hez. And, even if the united will and discipline were there, Hezballah is better armed and possibly better trained.

At the moment, the IDF/IAF are changing that equation, chewing up Hezballah's men, materiel, and money. There will come a point, though, where they've done all that they can do. That's when it's going to fall to the Lebanese to show the same strength and courage that they showed in the Cedar Revolution and take full control of their country. It's going to be hard and I don't envy you, but we supported you then and we support you now -- that's why Condi's there.

Lycanthropy said...

people like berri should have no say in lebanons future, he is a vestige of the bad past

Stan said...

achillea, I should have made the distinction between arab people and arab leaders. My bad.
Here Giedeon Levy clearly explains my point:

"Behind the operations in Lebanon and Gaza is the same foolish idea about pressure on the population leading to political changes that Israel wants. In the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict, that concept has only led us from one disaster to the next. We "cleansed" southern Lebanon of Palestinians in 1982, and what did we get? Hezbollahstan instead of Fatahland. Hamas won't fall because Gaza is in the dark, and not even because we bombed the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building at the weekend - another nonsensical move; Hezbollah won't be smashed because the international airport in Beirut has been put out of commission...."

Michael said...

Bad vilbel,


I’m from the US and have been watching this blog closely since the start of this conflict. I am glad to see that a lot of people here are starting to look for solutions again. I have been keeping an eye on Lebanon since the CR, and was hoping you would be able to get control of your government without the use of force, but that didn’t happen. And I do not claim to be an expert of your government or any government as far as that goes.

I agree with you that what is happening now, can not be changed. The HA will fall here, and I think there will be some type of international military force on your shores afterwards for a few years at least. This IMF cannot be the UN, I think history has shown they are like a old dog with no teeth, nothing to fear. This force will have to have the ability to use force if needed. Your military will have to be trained and armed to defend Lebanon.

As you may know there is a large military force already sitting off your shores. The US, British, and India, I know for sure. The French may be there also, I just don’t remember. If they are not there I would think they will be there soon. I think the US is about to start bringing in humanitarian aid. I think we are about the only ones Israel will trust to do this. Lets all hope this gets to happen soon. This may also be part of the IMF that may have to step in, at the Lebanese agreement, to help control this, at least until a IMF can be formed.

Solomon2 said...

disarming Hizballah, and deploying the Lebanese Army to the South would constitute a second, strictly Lebanese phase, that would play out in the National Dialogue Round Table.

Very interesting phrasing, obviously a way to avoid rejecting UNSC 1559 directly. However, it's clear that the implementation of 1559 would be up to Lebanese exclusively. Since the credibility of Lebanon's gov't to bring this about is zero or less, this isn't enough, and Israel is, in effect, given an incentive to pursue its operations until Hez is to weak to matter -- the Lebanese gov't will scarcely do anything otherwise.

Fighting Sullyvan said...

The disproportionate arms advantage Hezbollah has over other Lebanese is a major obstacle to the Lebanese containing Hezbollah. Have there been any discussions on arming Lebanese groups so they can stand up to Hezbollah. I realize that people are sick and tired of fighting, but given what the alternatives are I'm imagining some folks are revisiting the advantages of re-arming.

Anyone heard anything on this?

Michael said...

I think most know, the Lebanese army, ether can not or will not implement un 1559, and Israel is doing that now. I think both sides will agree on a real IMF being put there, (not the UN, they are a waste when it comes to enforcing anything).

Yohay Elam said...

Maybe they decided "not to agree"?
Maybe they both have an interest to keep seeing Hizbullah damaged? Or Seniora's status undermined?
I'm not sure that they just "stuck to their positions", but I think that they both want to see the war go on for a while.

Bad Vilbel said...

fightingsullivan,

You're suggesting civil war. As Achillea mentioned earlier in his/her post about Ben Gurion and 1948, it is NEVER wise to arm "groups of people". That's how we got into our 1975 civil war in Lebanon.

The issue here that many non-Lebanese fail to grasp is that Hezbollah, no matter how much we might hate them, are part of Lebanese society (specially the Shia community). I explained in earlier posts that they bought the loyalty of the shia community over the years, by spending a lot of money, building hospitals, education, etc.

Lebanese society, from the get go, is unlike many western states in its makeup. It's a lot like Iraq, actually. Countless sects who have never really had a strong sense of patriotism to the country first, but rather have traditionally offered their loyalties to their own sects and tribes (and this goes for sunnis, shias, christians, druze, etc.)

I realize this might seem like a tangent, but I dont think people from the outside grasp the kind of mess you can get into, setting the Army against Hezbollah. For starters, there are a lot of Shia in the army. You expect them to fight what might be a relative? a brother? They'd probably desert the army. And the Shia community would undoubtedly

The reason I brought up the settler movement in Israel as an analogy, is for that parallel. I don't think this would happen. But hypothetically, if the settlers took up arms (and they are armed, last i checked) and refused to be evacuated from the West Bank. And the IDF was sent to remove them by force. You think that wouldn't risk severly dividing Israeli society? I think that would be a TERRIBLE thing right there. I suspect countless soldiers in the IDF have a brother or a cousin who's a settler...You think they'd be as happy to drop bombs on those guys as they dropping bombs on South Lebanon? I highly doubt that.

Michael said...

Bad vilbel,

I was only seeing HA supporters on the news, but a little while ago on CNN, I saw where some of the Lebanese Christians, were saying about the same thing as you, HA will have to be disarmed, but the Shias are part of the government and they will stay part of it. Maybe a lesson will have to be taken from the Germans here, HA as with the Nazi’s will have to be banned. I think it will be up to the Lebanese to make sure that their own countrymen understand what or who brought this war upon them, and try to conform their government from letting this happen again.

Omar said...

i dont think anybody from harakat amal should be speaking lol... some of the things they did in the civil war will never be forgotten

Itai said...

to Arabgirl,

You are right on target. Its a very good analogy. We are indeed going through a major crisis with the Israeli religious right wing. Their dream of holding on to the holliest places to the Jewish people is being broken. But so far, though they protested, they didn't raise arms against their Government and Army. They were evacuated by the police and the army but a lot of those soldiers themselves were religiuos right wing supporters.
That's a test to our society and I hope we'll make it through. I also hope your society will be strong enough so that Shiites soldiers will overcome their sect, see themselves as Lebanese first and follow their democratic government's decisions.

Lirun said...

i hate this war (as i keep on saying) but i cant help feeling that something good may yet come of this.. that people may finally wake up to the stupidity of violence - renounce it - and finally move into the modern world..

deeply encouraged by the loudening voices for peace.. while fully recognising that the journey is long..

keep it loud guys!

wishing peace and friendship to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
the east mediterranean has washed enough blood and hatred

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Syria is trying to return to the frontline via the suffering of the lebanese. first - Syria this tyrant country linked with the rascals of Teheran and Pyongyang have become a sancturary - a safe heaven for tens ou thuosands of lebanese, "generous" Syrian families have opened their homes to the Lebanese brothers. Second, Syria is signalling that any distanfeling of the prickly issue of Shabaa (De-Jure - Syrian territory) has to be with the whole qustion of the rekindeling the negotiations about the Golan hights. Lastly, Syria is trying to prove that only she has the power to force order in Lebanon - thus returning to control Lebanon via the back door. Free and Democratic forces in Lebanon - supporters of the Ceder revolution should not allow this tragedy befallen on the country to be exploited cynically by external oppressors and their 5th legion - Hizbullah. If the end result of this war will be surrendering Lebanon to Syria all had be to no avail for both sides of the border.

Tel Aviv 1 said...

Hezbollah must be disarmed in order to secure Lebanon's future, soverign over its own territory. If this war ends in a ceasfire where Hezbollah remains armed, sitting in the south with thousands of rockets, than we will see another war in a few years.

Skymuse said...

One thing I think a lot of people miss in the discussion is that THIS IS WAR.

Regardless of who did what to whom last week/year/decade/century, the simple fact of the matter is that the Israeli war machine has been awakened and is pounding Lebanon. Lebanon is losing. Right now.

There is one way for the losing side in a war to stop the pounding -- meet the terms of surrender. The time for talking has passed and it is now a matter of violence on whatever scale the stronger side wishes to dish out until victory has been achieved.

Only after the weaker side gives in will there be talking again.

If Lebanon wants this to stop, you have to work against HA and get your government to meet Israel's conditions. HA has to be disarmed/disbanded (not sure of the exact term), HA must be withdrawn from south Lebanon, and the kidnapped soldiers must be returned safely.

Three steps to immediate peace. It doesn't have to involve Syria, Iran, US, UN, or anyone else.

Whether Israel is justified in its action or not, the biggest fact on the table is that they will not let up until the conditions are met. If you want this current war to cease, you have to surrender -- it is unlikely Lebanon will muster the force to beat Israel back.

As always, my best wishes for those caught in the middle, on both sides.

Bad Vilbel said...

Skymuse,

I think you are correct. And I think this is exactly what is happening now. If you read past the rethoric.

The Lebanese government was told yesterday by Rice exactly how things will be going down:
- Buffer zone.
- International force.
- HA disarmed.

and so on...

No government who's territory is currently under attack can come out and say "We like what the Israelis are doing."
That's just in bad taste.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Condi's visit yesterday was very much of the *wink wink nudge nudge* variety.
"We know you have to act incensed that you're country is being bombed, Mr. Saniora. Give it another week and we'll have the international force lined up and the buffer zone created."
In the end this accomplishes what the Lebanese government was not capable of doing over the past year, through the national dialogue (mainly because HA does not "dialogue").

Halla said...

Did Condi even bother to tour the devastation???? Have not seen any indication of this.

Achillea said...

Countless sects who have never really had a strong sense of patriotism to the country first, but rather have traditionally offered their loyalties to their own sects and tribes (and this goes for sunnis, shias, christians, druze, etc.)

I realize this might seem like a tangent, but I dont think people from the outside grasp the kind of mess you can get into, setting the Army against Hezbollah.


I don't think it's a tangent at all, I think it goes to the heart of the matter. Tribalism is the very essence of the problem. America is made up of 50 states, with people of all religions (including none) and of every ethnic group imaginable. We take pride in their disparate roots, but we take pride above all in being American and our military reflects that. This wasn't always the case -- about 150 years ago we had a Civil War. It was that or split the country in two, and ultimately the choice made us the strong union we are today, but it came at a cost hundreds of thousands crippled or killed, plus horrific devastation of both cities and farmland.

I'm hoping and praying it doesn't come down to that for Lebanon, but it well might. For all the posturing it does to dupe people like stan into believing it's some noble 'Lebanese resistance,' Hezballah isn't loyal to Lebanon or see itself as being answerable to Lebanon. They've made that abundantly plain in both word and deed. (Paraphrasing Milton, they would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven). The rest of you are going to have to make a choice -- allow yourselves to be enslaved by an upstart minority, split the country in two, or remind Hezballah (by force, if necessary) that they are only a small part of a far greater whole.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

(btw, for future reference, I am a 'she')

Natalie said...

I must say that I really like your posts Stan,keep it up!!

Now Id like to discuss some points made in this thread

- International forces in Southern Lebanon? huh.. just send them Gaza or Northern Israel, they want to be protected dont they? we dont need any foreign forces thankyou very much.

- I cudnt care less how ppl of Israel look at my country..and as opposed to wot some ppl said here..we're a strong & a brave lil country with loadsa pride.. dont forget we kicked israelis arses in 2000. add to this, the Israeli terrorists can only fight us using their F16 and all the international prohibited weapons.

- Iran & Syria are helping HA, so wot? the USAs helping the Nazi regiem of Isreal by supplying themwith all sorts of weapons..so for me..USA r helping the terrorists..Syria &Iran can help HA..Fair play!!

Achillea said...

Natalie, child, you are living in fairy-tale land.

With apologies to Bad Vilbel, et. al., you Lebanese have clearly not been up to the task of controlling your country, let alone protecting it. You have failed to keep a single promise, be it internal (Ta'if) or external (1559). And you have, in fact, been begging for foreign protection for weeks now.

Israel doesn't care what you think of them or whether you care about their opinions. They would, like anyone, prefer to be liked, but if you cannot keep your hands to yourself, they'll settle for you sulking on your side of the border after they give you the bitchslapping of your life.

You're a brave little country, but you're not strong and every word of your little screed here reveals that you mistake ego for pride. You didn't drive the Israelis out in 2000, we told them to leave. They lived up to their end of UNR 1559 while you jumped up and down chanting 'nyah nyah nyah.' And, now that they've put you over their collective knee and are giving you a resounding spanking (without, I might add, the use of a single internationally-prohibited weapon), you're crying for mommy. Again.

Lastly, the term 'Nazi' has an actual meaning, and it isn't 'I think you're a big meanie.' When you use it as a general epithet, you demonstrate only that you're ignorant and immature.

Lalith said...

Case of effective lying:

http://www.geocities.com/Capitol...s-iraq- lie.html

Wow ! Israel, USA & UK is telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth.

Hezbullaos bombed the building after 8 hours !

Hezbullos placed the dead underneath the rubble.

White house just announced Condi is pregnent.

These are 100% truth.