Thursday, July 20, 2006

So Close, Worlds Apart!

Naseer el-As’ad in his Al-Mustaqbal editorial today laid out PM Seniora’s principles towards achieving a sovereign Lebanese state. First, the Lebanese government is the sole upholder of all the sovereign functions of the State and that the government is ready to exercise full sovereignty over the country once the Israeli attacks stop.

Second, PM Seniora is still committed to fulfilling UNSCR 1559, but with Lebanese conditions. The contested territory, the Sheba’a Farms, if delineated as Lebanese territory, the Israeli Army needs to free it. The Lebanese prisoners should be freed. And only then the Lebanese Army would assume its full duties of protecting the southern border (which means that Hizbullah’s military wing would be dismantled.)

El-As’ad of course noted that in order for Seniora to put his principles into action, he needs all the Lebanese, including Hizbullah, to designate the Prime Minister to be the official representative of the Lebanese when negotiating the terms of the ceasefire. Which is true, that is exactly the type of empowerment that the Lebanese government, especially the Prime Minister needs at that critical juncture.

However, today Sayyid Nasrallah, in his interview on Al-Jazeera, almost answered Al-Mustaqbal by already deciding what the role of the Lebanese government should be: namely to receive all the international mediators, to take notes of their ideas and then to relay those ideas to Hizbullah, for Hizbullah to say, "Yes or No!"

I once wrote a post on this blog that said something along the lines of how in such a tiny place like Lebanon, some people can be so close, yet worlds apart!

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."


Loli said...

I think it's outrageous that a militia gets to decide for our government and our people. I've been outside Lebanon since 1990, and perhaps I'm missing some crucial piece of information, but I don't undertand why nobody seems to openly oppose Nasrallah. Can someone pls educate me? The answers I've heard so far are to the effect that we want to avoid a civil war. I think letting a militia use arms as it pleases is a much worse enterprise.

Loli said...

Comment on my comment: What I meant to say is that letting an armed militia do as it pleases is much worse than taking a risk. After all, I think the risk of a civil war is minimal, given our past experience.

Boris the Bullet Dodger said...

Just a note, Sheba Farms have been confirmed to belong Syria according to UN.

jewfie said...

I give up. I don't see any hope for peace in the region. Does anyone has a realistic idea that might work?

Fares said...

Rallying for Lebanon and the West double Standards

Fighting Sullyvan said...

Why would any Lebanese Patriot stand for this? We hear all this talk about honor, but why aren't young Lebanese men out in the streets fighting Hezbollah? When all is done, what will be harder to repair, the roads and bridges or the honor of all these Lebanese men who have cowered from Hezbollah and brought on this horrible onslaught of their neighbor who doesn't take any sheet? Hezbollah is fighting for the "nation". Hint - Nasrallah's not talking about Lebanon. He's talking about the Muslim Nation and he could give a rats ass about the Christians and Druze.

Boris the Bullet Dodger said...

Jewfie, my suggestion on how to solve the conflict...

1) Lebanon asks Israel for help to get rid of Hizballah (through secret channels).
2) Israel with the help of Lebanese intelligence takes out the top brass of Hizballah. Israel stops its attacks on Lebanon.
3) Lebanon gives rest of Hizballah fighters 24 hours to renounce violence, dissarm and go to their homes and families.
4) Anyone who is struborn gets mopped.
5) Israel completely leaves and Lebanon can live in peace.


Mik said...

I'm curious

As a westerner, I see this whole situation as absurd. If this were happening in my country, I'd be taking up arms to kick Hezbollah the hell out and openly supporting any government that puts a cap on them, or anyone else who advocates getting my home and family in trouble.

From your Lebanese perspective, don't your people want sovereignity?

Where are all the people who do not represent feel represented by Nasrallah?
(and I don't mean just Sunni/Christian/Druze/Anyone-not-Shiite, I mean people who want to grow 3.2 kids and a dog and go to work in a quiet environment and understand the current obstacle to that is the likes of Hezbollah)

Why don't we hear a strong "Nasrallah OUT!" and "Saniora, we're behind you, stop Israel by stopping Hezbollah!" from almost anywhere on the media/blog horizon? Why are intelligent people not rallying to kick Hezbollah out?

Is it because they are afraid of voicing their anti-Hezbollah opinion like palestinians fear Hamas executions of "traitors"?

Is it because they believe him and want to get bombarded for his cause?

Is it because they don't understand what electoral power and public pressure is and how it works? They don't understand their role is that of decisionmakers, not just casual bystanders?

Is it because they don't care what he does in their name and don't understand the connection between that and the bombs falling on them?

Is it some other possibility I've missed?

Khalil Hibri said...

I proclaim Nasrallah fearless leader of Lebanon. I delegate all power over the choice of my future to him.

xor84 said...

doha, i enjoy reading your posts because they are very well written and i find them very objective.

Ilan said...

Boris the Bullet Dodger - here is Israeli "semi-official" list of demands.

No War

jewfie said...

I can point a few problems with your idea:

1) The Lebanese government will not do it. The PM didn't realy even condem HA actions. Actually, the pragmatic contents of his response were similar to HA demands only that he said that after the demands (Sheba farms and prisoner exchange) will be fulfilled then Lebanon might carry on UNSCR 1559.

2) I am not sure the Lebanese government can do it. I would think the HA are quite careful with their moves. Also I believe that you can find people loyal to HA within the Lebanese army and security forces so that such a plan would probably be impossible to execute without the HA finding out.

3) I dont think this would reduce much of the fighting.

4) Most seems that HA enjoys 100% support from about 30% of the Lebanese population and some support from many others. It is not a just an foreign organization that leeches on Lebanon. It is a considerable part of it. Although many people dont like it there are many who would give their lives for it.

5) I didn't even mention the refugee camps.

nasbined said...

Everybody expects Lebanon to solve all the problems that Israel created in the middle east. Lebanon should not walk a single step alone when it comes to making sacrifices. Nasrallah said in that statement Doha quoted that Hezbollah defends the entire Islamic nation from Israeli aggression in a world that blindly supports Israel. So as long as Israel is at war with Muslims, Hezbollah's response is a natural one.

A long lasting peace will require Israel to swallow its arrogance and behave like a normal nation.
1) Israel must cease its aggression in Lebanon.
2) Syria says Shaaba Farm is Lebanese, so Israel must leave it without delay.
3) Israel must free all Lebanese and Arab prisoners. Israel's two soldiers can be freed.
4) A just and fair solution for the Palestinians must be reached. Lebanon and Palestine and the Muslim nation is united in this. Palestinians in Lebanon must be allowed to return to their ancestors lands in Israel while a Palestinian state is established. Israel's soldier in Gaza can be freed.
5) We can then begin to dismantle Hezbollah and the IDF simulteneously. In a time of peace both would be considered illegal organizations that committed war crimes.

Shmulik said...

If this is your "peace" plan than let me make a counter proposal. Israel will bomb every neighbor into submission and rule the "promised land" from the nile to euphrates river (sarcassam). Thank you so much for giving me the chance to be a dhimmi slave in you islamo-facist utopia. If you think that being your slaves is what "normal nations" aspire to, than you have some serious issues.

dimalife said...

nasbined -

after all of your suggestions are implemented, the captured soliders will have no israel to return to.

Achillea said...

1) Israel must cease its aggression in Lebanon.
Sure. Just as soon as her citizens (kidnapped from her sovereign territory) are released, rockets stop being launched at civilian population centers with in Israel, and you start owning up to your responsibilities like a real country and not a bunch of sniveling cravens and disarm the illegal terrorist organization known as Hezballah that started all this mess.

2) Syria says Shaaba Farm is Lebanese, so Israel must leave it without delay.
Just as soon as Syria formally reliquishes their claim. Lebanon's been begging them to do so for years and they still haven't. Funny, that.

3) Israel must free all Lebanese and Arab prisoners. Israel's two soldiers can be freed.
Israel's kidnapped soldiers, Wasserman and Regev can be freed. Then negotiations regarding the disposition of child-murderers like Samir Kuntar can be conducted, though I suspect releasing a man who butchered an entire family -- including crushing the skull of a little girl -- is not going to happen.

4) A just and fair solution for the Palestinians must be reached.

Been there, done that. Arafat turned it down. Too bad for the Pals, but they never do miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Lebanon and Palestine and the Muslim nation is united in this. Palestinians in Lebanon must be allowed to return to their ancestors lands in Israel while a Palestinian state is established.

You can be united all you like. 'Return' is. not. going. to. happen. Period. Ever.

Israel's soldier in Gaza can be freed.

And, once that happens and the firing of Kassems stops, the Pals can humbly apologize for taking him and then maybe they can have some of their terrorist leaders back.

5) We can then begin to dismantle Hezbollah and the IDF simulteneously.

You can dismantle Hezbollah, as you should have done in the first place (and, if you had, you wouldn't be in the deep doo-doo you are now, but I digress). The IDF, being the legal military of an actual country, will stay just as it is.

In a time of peace both would be considered illegal organizations that committed war crimes.

Only if that peace were thorazine-induced.

Nice try, but the winner sets the terms and you guys are the biggest losers on the block. PM Olmert's already told you what you need to do. Best you get busy.

stateroom said...

"One of Saudi Arabia's leading Wahhabi sheiks, Abdullah bin Jabreen has issued a strongly worded religious edict, or fatwa, declaring it unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah," the New York Sun's Eli Lake reports from Cairo, Egypt:

Los Angeles Observer said...

Khlil Hibri and Nasbined,

I was having thoughts of compassion for Lebanon, but idiots like you make me cheer for Israel.

As a Mexican-American, I see similar situation with recent protests in the US. Mexican nationals protest and demand rights in the US. They always bring up the issue how the US stole California, Arizone, and Texas. When questioned why they left Mexico they all respond referencing the economy, lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, coruption, and violence.
Translated...the inability to govern! As a people they failed to create an ecomomy, and failed to root out corruption...they failed to govern. Sound familar? (Lebanon,Palastine areas, Syria, Iran) Do I want Mexico to regain conrol of these states...Hell No!

Are we as a world going to allow some 13 century, narrow minded idiots try to govern large parts of this world...HELL NO! We only tolerate stupidity for so long...remember Japan. Don't confuse the world's patience for weakness.

Isarel pulled back out of the area of Gaza, did those guys try to create an ecomony..NO. Did they deal with coruption..NO. They became the largest welfare case in the world, and the world is tired of the whining. Israel pulled back out of Lebanon, and you guys tolerate these idiots. And if like those other two assholes who this was addressed to, you want to tie your futures to these idiots. I hope the next strike is on you.

The world has had enough of cowards and idiots.

stateroom said...

After the Cedar Revolution, the Lebanese managed to eject Syria from their nest, but Hezbollah was allowed to stay, whether out of fear or sympathy or some combination of both. The Lebanese were supposed to disarm Hezbollah, but the "Party of God," supported by Iran's Islamic theocracy and Syria's regime, has become a lethally armed "state within a state." Hezbollah is not only responsible for terrorist attacks against Israelis; Americans have died at theirs hands too, most notably the 1983 Beirut attack in which 241 U.S. Marines were killed. There should be no doubt who is the enemy here.

As Lebanon is being used as shield for Hezbollah, both politically and literally, some Lebanese have cried for help in the fight against Hezbollah's presence in their country.

But some Lebanese officials have been more conciliatory toward Hezbollah. Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora has expressed sympathy with Hezbollah claims against Israel. Lebanese President Emile Lahoud formally thanked Iran for its support during the Israeli attacks, knowing that Hezbollah is using missiles made in Iran. And though its been reported that the Lebanese army is too weak to take on Hezbollah, this report says the Lebanese army may join forces with the "Pary of God" to take on Israel.

As criticism of Israel rises with the Lebanese deathtoll, it is paramount to remember: Hezbollah initiated this war by crossing Israel's border from Lebanon to kill eight Israeli soldiers and kidnap two. Hezbollah then returned to take refuge in Lebanon where the terrorist group enjoys a safe haven behind Lebanese human shields. The civilian casualties in Lebanon will continue to rise so long as Lebanon continues to harbor Hezbollah. Every single Lebanese victim should be laid at the feet of Hezbollah and any Lebanese who have supported Hezbollah's home in Lebanon.

Shmulik said...

Achillea I really like your posts :)

Boris the Bullet Dodger said...


First, it was ideals solution, I am far from confident it would work. Second, Hizballah depends on support of the population, I believe that if the Lebanese gov't showed it was not willing to take shit from Hizballah, than the majority of Lebanon would follow it...


Boris the Bullet Dodger said...

But... Perhaps some Lebanese voices could help clarify what Lebanese people think...

Bad Vilbel said...

Well, here's one Lebanese voice speaking as best it can.

I agree with all saying that Hezbollah is the root cause of this mess (well, really, Iran and Syria are, Hezbollah being the proxy). And i agree that Hezbollah should've been disarmed a long time ago. And failing that, that it should be disarmed now.

I can tell you I do not support a state within a state, nor do I support an armed militia, who can start its own wars whenever it pleases.

Having said that, and to those who ask why wasn't Hezbollah disarmed already? Why don't people speak up against them? and so on...I say that all things in politics take time. For us Lebanese, the clock started the day the Syrians left, barely a year ago. Before that, we were under occupation for 30 years. Our occupier was the same one who arms Hezbollah, and who assassinated any Lebanese politician who dared speak up against Hezbollah. Even after the Syrian withdrawal, the assassinations continued. Prominent Lebanese who spoke out against Hezbollah, were assassinated. So yes, these things take time. We were starting to talk about disarming Hezbollah, over the past year. We were starting to make some progress, with the support of UN resolutions, and the backing of the US and Europe.

I understand that when it comes to its security, Israel cannot wait. It cannot sit by idle and watch soldiers being kdinapped, just to give us more time. Fine. I get that. But the Lebanese WERE working towards exactly what you suggest. To say they weren't is outright false. And to have expected them to do it in less than a year is outright unrealistic.

I mean, it's taking Israel how long to "disengage" from the Palestinians? That stuff can't be done overnight.

Itai said...

Edmund Burke said:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I wish the voices of people like Naseer el-As’ad were the dominant ones.

But the majority is silent and docile and the minority of extremists have all the power.

stateroom said...

We can only hope that Syria makes the `strategic mistake` of getting involved.
Their terrorising and raping of Lebanon has to be stopped.
Meanwhile, Hizb know that they are on their own now and the Aug 22 manifestation is all Ahmadinnerjacket`s pipe dream. A con man.

nasbined said...

Israel does not behave like a normal nation. It's coddled and shielded from the natural consequences of its nazi-like behavior. No other nation would get such special protection that Israel gets if they behaved as barbaricaly as Israel does. Israelis and moral people around the world should be calling on the Israeli army to stop its aggression against civilians.

Just like Hezbollah is a shiites state in Southern Lebanon, Israel too is a Jewish state within a state (Palestine) that must dismantle its criminal army for peace.

stateroom said...

Palestine? Before the state of israel was formed the jews were the ones who were known as palestinians.

The fiction of palestinian arabs only came into being in the 60`s. Palestine itself was a word coined by Hadrian around 135 A.D. since the Judeans were giving the Romans hell.

Palestinian arabs are myth as testified by the PLO executive council`s interview with a newspaper in Amsterdam.

This is more of a religous war as I see it. In India the Brahimi Sultans made it a practice of killing 100,000 hindus every year in the name of their religion.
Today there are 1 billion hindus.
Lessons of history.

stateroom said...

Yes. The figure 100,000 above is correct.

Lirun said...

agression has to be renounced collectively by all parties.. israel is not responsible for the entire violence of the middle east.. it is basically a historical lie to suggest this.. its an easy lie to sell because no one easily believes that the weaker party can be an aggressor..

but this is a plainly stupid and unproductive view..

if we search for the origin of blame incessantly.. perhaps we should all erupt in a war against the divine.. maybe our creator is to blame for the original flaws in our human design?!

so rather than kill eachother over our own misfortune and more often than not kill ourselves why dont we just call it a millenium.. and put the guns down for a while.. not just physically but also mentally and spiritually.. i think the ground has soaked enough blood in this corner of the world..

"sign my petition for peace"

stateroom said...

In a March 31, 1977 interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaper Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhse’in said: ?The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.’

Itai said...

Dr. Guy Bechor is an expert on Middle Eastern affairs and politics.
He claims that politician in Lebanon who oppose Hezbollah don’t speak against the organization and limiting their criticism to Iran and Syria because they don’t know the war outcome yet.

Their 1982 experience taught them that Israel should not be trusted to complete the job. So till then they sit on the fence.

Itai said...

nasbind anon 1:10

Regarding "Israel's Brutality":

Thousands of shiite and Sunis slaughter each other in Iraq.
Every day 100 civilians killed.

1,000,000 Iranians and Iraqis died in the war between them in the 80's

20,000 Palestinians slaughtered by Assad's army in Hama in the 70's in one day.

over 1,000 Israeli women and children were slaughtered on buses, in cafes, on the street between 2001-2003.

This Samir Kuntar guy Hez is trying to release by kidnapping our soldiers went into an appartment in an Israeli town and executed an entire family. (the mother survived, the children and father died). Would you execute or release him?

Check these facts, think it over, put your racism and hatered aside
and tell me what you think.

Los Angeles Observer said...


Everyone has basically been saying the same thing. We want to deal with these idiots who have hijacked Lebanon's government. Problem is they are hiding in bunkers and won't come out. Let a stronger force get rid of these parasites.

Here's how.

We'll some very 'nice' weapons in our bag of tricks for those wishing to stay inside fortified position and fight it out in 2006. They're called Thermobaric bombs, aka Bunker Busters. Let me quote from a FMSO Publication:

“The subsequent fireball sears the surrounding area while consuming the oxygen in this area. The lack of oxygen creates an enormous overpressure. This overpressure, or blast wave, is the primary casualty-producing force. In several dozen microseconds, the pressure at the center of the explosion can reach 30 kilograms per square centimeter (427 pounds per square inch) – normal atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 pounds per square inch with a temperature between 2,500-3,000 degrees Centigrade [4,532-5,432 degrees Fahrenheit]. This is 1.5 to 2 times greater than the overpressure caused by conventional explosives. Personnel under the cloud are literally crushed to death. Outside the cloud area, the blast wave travels at some 3,000 meters per second [9843 feet per second]. The resultant vacuum pulls in loose objects to fill the void.
As a result, a fuel-air explosive can have the effect of a tactical nuclear weapon without residual radiation. Since a fuel-air mixture flows easily into any cavities, neither natural terrain features nor non-hermetically sealed field fortifications (emplacements, covered slit trenches, bunkers) protect against the effects of fuel-air explosives. If a fuel-air charge is fired inside a building or bunker, the cloud is contained and this amplifies the destruction of the load-bearing components of the structure. Fuel-air can be an effective weapon against exposed enemy personnel, combat equipment, fortified areas and individual fighting positions…… Those personnel caught directly under the aerosol cloud will die from the flame or overpressure. For those on the periphery of the strike, the injuries can be severe. Burns, broken bones, contusions from flying debris and blindness may result. Further, the crushing injuries from the overpressure can create air embolism within blood vessels, concussions, multiple internal hemorrhages in the liver and spleen, collapsed lungs, rupture of the eardrums and displacement of the eyes from their sockets. Displacement and tearing of internal organs can lead to peritonitis.”

Lebanon, what to finally be a free country. We'll give the Hez boys in their bunkers a little taste of overpressure 'love'.

seeker said...

You forgot Black September Jordan inflicting between 3000 to 5000 casualties on Palestinians in merely 10 days (In fact the story line is similar to what happens in Lebanon).

Please blameing leads to misdunderstaning and fear, fear the hate and hate to violence, stick to facts, talk objectively and be productive.

Seeding hate and blaming is not an option, If you do that you just contribute to the war you are trying to so call stop.

Regardelss, I understand wanting to have back some freedom fighters but to fight to have back a murderer, Funny I would pay the Isralies to keep guys like Kuntar.

Jad J said...

Jewfie, thats the first expert analysis about lebanon i hear in this blog from a non-lebanese.
Impressed! i hope all the others can truly see it the way u do !

"2) Syria says Shaaba Farm is Lebanese, so Israel must leave it without delay."
Now we see ure colors, Syria Eyh? Furthermore, why doesnt she present the Land deeds to the UN.

I guess Achilea "kaffa w waffa ma3ak" ya nasibened on number 3

Thats not the Shmulik i got to know during the last 9 days.

@ Badvilbel: your words speak of a true lebanese!! are u in lebanon now?

but what u all fail to see, except Jewfie in part 4), Hezbullah is a party with a non-lebanese agenda using Lebanese.... his supporters are people who live among us in our everyday's life, I would hate to go one day to work and find out that 4 of my coworkers are dead.

It is like saying u should kill the israeli-arabs because they elect Azmi Bchara who does not like the israeli government!
In addition, u say why we let HEzbullah people be in the government and parliament: thats the same democracy u have... since their supporters constitutes a large portion of the population.

As Suha once said in her comments, Hezbullah is not just a military party, but a political and social one as well, they provide more social services than the lebanese government, who so far aint able to do so due to a 16 year of occupation and having all administrations packed with corrupted people that if u want to fire all at once, will leave a huge vaccum in the administration.

Badvilbel said it, it needs time, its systematic, but u cant jump to number two then to three without passing through number 1!

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

You are a brave individual who expresses his views with frankness ad openess. You portray the lebanese tragedy very well. It has always been the chessboard for players stronger to play with the lebanese as the chess pieces and pawns of the game. When was Lebanon a really free nation? Back in the 1960's? Do the lebanese know that for many years Israelis viewed the Lebanese border - as the good fence.Why? Becuase it as the quitest front since 1949. Israeli living next to the border had for many years forged friendships whe ashes only ith neighboring lebanese villagers All that changes in the last decade - first the PLO than the Syrian invasion in 1976, than the Israeli invasion in 1982 and than the Syrian ad Iranian de facto annexation of your country. Assad aways saw Lebanon as another Syrian province whe was only much smarter than Saddam not to follishly annex it like Kuwait. It is true that Lebanon rose from the ashes only last year. Many of us here in The south of the levant viewed the Beirut apprising with great enthusiasm since it was the first time that Lebanese really did something worthy for there country snd for that you received the worlds applause. What now? We have been depbating, arguing sometimes bashing each other here on the blogs for over a week. Meanwhile, 300 Lebanese are dead thuosands are injured and half a million on the move homeless. In israel almost all the northern communities, are deserted or people hiding in bombshelters, soldiers - the pride of our youth are dying, and 3 families are wrecked with anxiety for there loved ones who were kidnapped and their ruthless captors do not have the decency even to show they are alive ad well. I dont want to argue who is right or wrong - the tragic result is that civilians are suffering - no decent human being can withstand the pivture of an injured baby crying - no matter who started what. I just hope the fighting will stop soon. Lebanon must take it's responsibility as a soveriegn nation with the help of its friends, the shia community will be embraced by the Lebanese government not ostricized and Nazrallah and his iranian thugs must disspaear to the fathoms of hel with other horrible figures of human history. Maybe than we can shake hands over the good fence once more. The Levant deserves better.

Kifaya said...

Who is Naseer el-As’ad? What is his position or title? Is he a govt. official? Why does he speak for PM Seniora.

Sorry, I missed that somewhere.

Shmulik said...

Jad J
I was being SARCASTIC. If this is Nasibend's idea of peace it's just a recipie for war and that was what I was trying to illustrate. If you don't see why Nasibend's plan for "peace" is really for war, I will explain.

seeker said...

Please do explain, If you grant a reply don't make it curt and patronizing, It does not really promote the discussion. No offense. I see many of you here great people are getting a bit tired, there are some new people every day and some do not know the previous comments, and no matter their opinion they still merit a true response and we merit to explore all possiblities.

Really no offense, I loved the conversations so far (Well mostly) There are some great people here, and insights can come from virtualy anyone.

eli said...

The essential feature of any terror organization is the elimination of the demarcation between military and civilians.

Within the terrorist viewpoint everybody is a fighter, whether they like it or not.

That’s why terrorists have no qualms targeting civilians – for them it is a meaningless distinction.

What many people don’t realize is that this terrorist logic applies not only to the intended victims of terrorist but to civilians belonging to the aggressor's side too.

Bin laden had no problem with the fact that some of his victims in 9\11 where Arabs. From his point of view every person is automatically a soldier in the mighty struggle of the Arab "uma" and so is expected to pay the warrior's price regardless of his being a civilian.

Similarly the HZ sees the entire population of Lebanon as soldiers in their epic struggle to redeem the holy land from the control of the Jewish infidel and impose the rule of the holy repressive "sharia" over all. Therefore the HZ can't care less if Lebanese civilians die while serving as human shields during there rocket attacks since these people aren't really civilians but pawns in Allah's great war game.

This attitude might seem sick and demented from a western humanistic view but is essential and necessary to understanding the terrorist way of viewing the world.

Shmulik said...

I apologize if my post was curt but as you have astutely recognized, I am tired and don't have it in me too right long posts.
But since you have asked, here goes :)
-I believe Achilea in her previous post summarized exactly what I and most of Israel believe.
The main problem is Nasibend's point 4) "allowed to return to their ancestors lands in Israel". While it's sounds reasonable to an outside onlooker (hey, we all want justice, right?) It's a thinly veild threat on Israel's existance. With a hugh arab majority what could stop them from implementing islamic law for example? This will lead to a civil war in Israel that our neighbours will finish. Even if this demand "the right of return" is just (and I am not saying it is), 95% of the population in Israel will never, ever accept it.It's exactly like saying that native-americans should be "allowed to return to their previous position as rulers of north-america and rule the US.

elendil said...

general thoughts:
What is going on in Lebanon and Israel ist part of a very complex and long during process. This process is not driven or possesed by anyone. It's kind of an autoprocess, the parties can make inputs, but they can not influence the process how it works and where it leads and what ist very important, nobody can stop that process. I like to compare it with the mathematical phenomen of fragmental geometrics. The more you get in, the more you loose in infinitly spheres. In other words and back to the actual events, you will never find justice in examine and analysing all the details that are happening. Going this way, you just open the way to the next conflicts. Are all the people involved just victims of a great fate? I think yes. But I also think, that, let's say the "one great global process" although holds unexpected and very powerful instruments. These will be the only thinkable ways to a solution in the middle east. I see two possible developents, that would be able to stop the autoprocess. First a natural catastroph that will destroy a lot of the existing structurs or that will endanger all people in the region in a way, that they realize the basics and zoom out the ideological thinking. Some kind of a common enemy, that will force the divided parties to gather. Second the apearance of a great leader, that will convince the people to follow him to an new goal. Maybe one solution will go hand in hand with the other one. I even think there is a third solution, but it's a very weak one. The people could fight against the poison of ignorance. This is a question of relevant and direct information. Blogging may be one step in the wright direction.........

Doha said...


Naseer Al-As'ad writes the editorial for Al-Mustaqbal daily; a daily representing the Hariri's Tayyar Al-Mustaqbal. Government officials in Lebanon don't write editorials in newspapers.

Doha said...


I'm a girl, not a guy.

yair said...

nasbined said...That in order for this round of fighting to end, there are some conditions. One of them: "A just and fair solution for the Palestinians must be reached."

Apparently nasbined is not lacking in staying power.

In Israel, we have a joke about a guy walking on the beach and coming across a curious looking bottle. He picks it up, rubs some sand off it and (not surprisingly) a genie appears. "Let me go and I will grant you any wish!". The guy says, "It would be cool to have a highway from here to NYC". The Genie goes "common, get real". "OK" says the guy, "We have a little dispute here in the ME between us and the Pals. Let me explain... (bla bla bla). In short I want peace". The genie takes a minute and goes: "So, how many lanes do you want on that highway?"

seeker said...

I know? and no need to apologize to me, I learned a lot from people' views here and the remarkable resistency of the Lebanses (Text books!, huh), just trying to avoid non existent friction. But maybe I overdo that so I am sorry,
Peace and love everybody and hope for better times

Shmulik said...

I thank you for your kind words. Out of curiousity I would like to know if you agree/disagree with my point.

mara said...

As promised, 35 more pictures of Madrid demo:

seeker said...

I am biased and among the 95% :) though not living in Israel right now (Belgium, today is the national day btw),
I am however questioning the Israeli response and trying to convice myself that this was the only option, or at least that it will result is some good to most. All of you are very informative but I am trying to stay objective as much as possible (Still biased though) but I learned a lot about Lebanese and also about my compatriots and I would do my best to shut up and just read from now on :)

fabucat said...

Several questions:

1) Out of all the attacks upon Israel since 1990, how many of those can definitely be attributed to Hezbollah?

2) How do you think that this war is going to impact the US occupation of Iraq? Will US soldiers be attacked more by Iraqi insurgents--ostensibly because of US unequivocal support for Israel?

Lirun said...

now there is a "tunnel of friendship" right there.. ;)

i have posted a petition for peace in the east mediterranean.. im not blaming anyone and not offering any solutions.. but i think there would be great value in an overwhelming message to our governments that regardless of how - we do infact seek peace.. we may not be statespeople and may not have all of the answers - but we don't in fact enjoy war.. or appreciate violence..

if anyone supports this initiative could you please sound your voice on my blog..



Shmulik said...

Please don't shut up. As long as you can support your opinion with logical arguments we can refute or accept every point of view is valid. What I would really like is for people who are against the attack, to explain what they think we should do.

Muxecoid said...

jad j, if Lebanese goverment provides less social services, than Hizbullah and posseses less power why does it call itself government? "To govern" means to enforce your will in certain region.

Should someone with power to seek peace in the region he faces the fate of Anwar Sadat or Rafiq Harirri. But remember that Sadat decided to have peace after his defeat.

LebExile said...

Exactly what part of the Islamic nation does Hizbollah represent, half of the Islamic nations have peace treaties or formal diplomatic relations with Israel. Does he represent that half, or just Iran and Syria???

I dont understand how any Lebanese Shiites can possibly support Hizbollah??? They have destroyed their homes, brought them death, destruction and misery for so long.

The Lebanese government should not be making demands of Israel to get out of the sheeba farms, or release prisioners etc... they should instead kick out the Hizbollah misisters in the government, charge them with treason, capture Hassan Nassarallah and try him for high treason, and have a public execution that is broadcast live accross the world.

They should call for an immediate ceasefire whereby they will forcefully disarm Hizbollah, deploy soldiers at the borders, close the border to Syria, open negotiations for a formal peace treaty with Israel, and think first and foremost of what is good only for LEBANON.

Why must we forever be sacraficed on the alter of Arab Nationalism??? If Iran or Syria have demands of Israel, they should bomb Israel from their countries... and yes, I will sit comfy at home and cheer as Israel pulverises Tehran and Damascus.

Why does the Lebanese government have to consult with this or that state? Do what is right for your own country, and whoever is not happy with this can go to hell. If the Shiites are not happy with living in Lebanon, and insist on holding on to their weapons, then fine, take you weapons and fuck off, go to Iran, or Syria???

We have an army, that should be enough to protect any one group within the country!!! If the Shiites are so enthusiastic about fighting for their country, then join the fucking army, lord knows, they could use the extra manpower.

I'm sorry if anyone gets offended by my rant, but I am sick and tired of being told to stay united. I would be united, if they want to unite behind the governement and our national army...

Here's an idea, how about I arm myself and unite behind my local sectarian lord??? would that satisfy for urges for unity???

I say that the devil worshiping cult of Nassarallah is dead and buried, and as long as there is any Hezbollah cult members left in the country once this war is over, they should be rounded up and culled???

How about that for unity.

seeker said...

I seek answers ofwhich one is the one you just raised, and I found out for myself that the more I speak the less I listen. frankly, I have seen really good reasoning from both sides so far, so I don't feel obliged to participate, You do a better job in that than me. However, an anecdote to depict my state of mind is in order:
I used to train dogs as one of my short term vocation, some time ago. Training like education (and brain washing) is relatively very simple, to make a long story short I will just mention that in case you need to remove unwanted behavior from an animal (Providing it's not in its nature) You have to disallow the animal to repeat this behavior and demonstrate to it what it can do instead (I.E not letting the dog piss at home directing it to the garden) failing to indicate what is a good and accepted behavior is catastrophic for social animals (i.e dogs, humans), If it hears all the time NO, NO and NO without any understanding of where to find the YES, you will have a very frustrated dog and some can even go berserk.

So one other question I am looking for is
1. What is the YES? What can we do? I am tired of all the negative approaches, for example some of the demonstrations are against Israel and not for Lebanon, as subtle as it sounds right now, why not create big things for a great cause like LEBANON and not take it as a reason to proove your negaive appraoch against a petty cause? A change of focal point to something positive.

another question is as disturbing to me, as mentioned above some animals hearing NO, NO, NO indeed turn berserk. Where do we stand in all that ? Are our actions well calculated ones to benefit most of us ? or our logic and values are flawed by our frustrations. If it is the later we are inflicting the same frustration on others, creating more vicious circles.

So I have no definite answers so I will shut up and listen when wiser man talk.

Eran Tel-Aviv said...

Doha, how could I know - you are a she not a he...I stand corrected....BTW, the press also mistakes you for a he....what is to be done....(:

rox_publius said...

i wish i believed that the majority of lebanese thought like bad vilbel.

Doha said...


what press?

Boris the Bullet Dodger said...

I found this website from Maariv (an Israeli daily).

Eran Tel-Aviv said...


a few days ago your blog was cited on Haaretz newspaper and also you were mentioned on Israeli T.V more than once. There is quite an impression that the blogs have become a route for comunication (some times negative) between Lebanese ad Israelis. For this I thank you.

Bad Vilbel said...

Shmulik said: "The main problem is Nasibend's point 4) "allowed to return to their ancestors lands in Israel". While it's sounds reasonable to an outside onlooker (hey, we all want justice, right?) It's a thinly veild threat on Israel's existance."

Not to go off on tangents (since we're discussing the Lebanon war, not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here), but I feel it is long past due that people throughout the world, and more importantly, people throughout the arab world, understand this point made here.

Just or not (and we could argue that one until Kingdom Come), there simply is no room for population displacement and the such in the modern world, and nothing will EVER get resolved by continually arguing over ancestral rights. At SOME point, people have to accept the reality of the 2 state solution (just or not) and MOVE ON. Enough living in the past. The future awaits, and we're all busy wasting it away.

It's probably easy for me to be saying all this, when I'm not Palestinian, and I haven't lost my homeland (although it's being bombed to pieces right about now). But the original poster is right, if we ran around trying to fix the wrongs done by one peoples to another ages ago, we'd NEVER live in peace. The American Indians would want the US and Canada back. The descendents of the Aztecs would want Mexico back. The arabs would want Southern Spain back. And who knows what other age-old claims can be made.

Bad Vilbel said...

rox_publius says: i wish i believed that the majority of lebanese thought like bad vilbel.

A lot more of them do than you think. Just look at these blogs. I'd say the number of "haters" pales in comparison to those of us who are willing to talk about some sort of peaceful solution to all this.

The danger here comes from those less fortunate than us. Those who lose their loved ones to a bomb, (or in Israel, to a missile) or lose their homes. Anger is such an "easy" emotion. And anger begets revenge (just or not). That's where extremists come from. You can almost SEE the anger polluting these very disucssions. 3 weeks ago, sane debate was for the most part the norm. Now, people are angry. On both sides.

That's what worries me. Some of us can get past our anger. But a lot of people, those affected more directly, can be consumed by it. And that, my friend, is where extremists are born.

xor84 said...

reading the words of lebexile and bad vilbel fills me with great sadness since it's more and more clear to me that this war should not have began. it appears that both israeli people and lebanese oppose the Hizbullah which is now distroying both countries with it's actions.
we should all be friends, not enemies, and untied in our goal to end Hizbullah reign of terror and the control of Syria and Iran over Lebanon.
i am sad of what could of been if only we had all been wiser.

if this is what lebanese think, why didn't we hear those voices earlier?
(even voices saying- we're trying to disarm Hizbullah, give us some time/help)
why haven't we co-operated during the last year since Syria's withdrew its army from Lebanon?

i only hope that some day the lebanese could do the same as the people of egypt and jordan and put this war behind them in order to achieve peace.

bocaink said...

I'm an American, and I saw the plug for your site on I am a 30 year old foreign policy scholar and writer for a political talk show, so I speak with some authority. You young people need to save your countries as we do here in America too. While world peace is highly unlikely ever, you guys are the key to saving the future. Don't let hatred for the "other" ruin the common bonds you and we all share. You may feel you are powerless to do anything about this. But keep plugging away....and plug and plug and plug. We are all God's children whether you acknowledge it or not. Despite the obvious cultural differences, we are all of the same organic material, same eyes, same body parts, and we share the same planet. And we have to share the same planet or we will ruin it. Keep the dialogue going, there is nothing more important even as rockets are crashing around you. Be brave! War breaks my already crushed heart!

I do my part every day.....and so you must as well.

With much love,


Bad Vilbel said...

xor84 said:
if this is what lebanese think, why didn't we hear those voices earlier?
(even voices saying- we're trying to disarm Hizbullah, give us some time/help)
why haven't we co-operated during the last year since Syria's withdrew its army from Lebanon?

Xor, the voices were there. They've been around for some time. This very blog was created (i presume) around the time last year when the Syrians were being kicked out, for the very purpose of voicing this kind of opinion.

Numerous courageous journalists in Lebanon had started writing to this effect. They were murdered (Samir Kassir, Gibran Tueni). Like i said, we were in the process...we had just gotten to a point where we could start to talk about disarming Hezbullah without being called traitors (although some people would STILL use that word today). It was a PROCESS.

What is sad to me, is that people are now asking "Where were all the voices?" You know what? The voices were here. You (and by that i mean the international community at large) weren't that interested in listening and lending a helping hand.
There was brief interest, right when the Syrians were being kicked out. For a few months, Bush, Rice, the French, the Brits were encouraging Lebanese to speak up, kick out the Syrians, take control of their own country. They passed UN resolution 1559, aimed at disarming Hezbollah, got us talking about it. And then...left us to figure it out on our own. We could've used more help in that process. The lebanese state and army could've been made stronger. Everyone knew that it wasn't ready to take on Hezbollah (Condi Rice herself said that the disarming of hezbollah wasn't really feasible right away, last year).

So please, no more "Where were all the Lebanese voices?" We were here. No one was listening.

xor84 said...

bad vilbel-
if the people of Lebanon tried to disarm Hizbullah, than i withdraw my complaint.
i guess there is no point now talking about what could have been done differently.

"we had just gotten to a point where we could start to talk about disarming Hezbullah without being called traitors"
i guess that this could have made Hizbullah feel vulnerable and motivated it to ignite this war.

Bad Vilbel said...


You bet that the nascent Lebanese democracy was a threat to Hezbollah. I don't particularly think this is the forum to get into debating internal Lebanese politics: the effect Michel Aoun's alliance with Hezbollah, for personal gain, for instance, setting Lebanese democracy back. The ruling majority (March 14 movement)'s inability to properly deal with the issues at hand, and so on.
But suffice it to say, wheels were in motion. Things were moving in the right direction.
As I've posted elsewhere, I don't really expect Israel to sit by idly and watch their soldiers kidnapped, just because the Lebanese were "in a process". But was moving in the right direction, and now it isn't.

You can bet that Hezbollah was more than glad to escalate things, ignite a war. That's why I keep saying they are the ones that stand to win the most from this (along with Iran and Syria):
- They can't be completly wiped out (you can never really wipe out a terrorist/guerilla type force).
- They get to prove to their Shia constituency that Israel is the bad guy, for having bombed their homes and children.
- They get to tell everyone within earshot "See. Lebanon needs the resistance armed. So we can defend it against Israel!" (or whatever other hubris of that sort).
- They get to weaken the Lebanese government. And maybe even start pushing for Syria to come back in (the pro-syrian camp will be quick to say "See. Without Syria, the Lebanese can't defend themselves!"

All this warmongering works out great for Hezbollah. It works out shitty for the Lebanese people at large.

nice said...

I thoug that governments don't represent any more theirs reprensented, that is: people. And so and while we, the people, wished to live peacefully, the governments, eager of power and money, cause wars

thepoetryman said...

I once wrote a post on this blog that said something along the lines of how in such a tiny place like Lebanon, some people can be so close, yet worlds apart!

That captures the essence and the sad truth of our human existence.

We are all on one planet...must we seek to destroy them both... simultaneaously.

Lirun said...

tunnels of friendship.. calling all excavators to commence work without delay

east mediterranean sea deserves peace..

Fearless said...

Kissing cousins: The UN and Hezbollah flags fly side by side at the UN observer post. (Pic thanks to Michelle Malkin)

The lynching of Israel continues, this time with United Nations boss Kofi Annan accusing it of the “apparently deliberate targetting” of a UN observation post, killing four observers.

The usual suspects are now running with this line, with The Age front page screaming: “UN told: please explain.’’

The venom against Israel - as splashed about by former Deputy Prime Minsiter Tim Fischer on ABC 774 this morning - is extraordinary. Do these people seriously think Israel aims to kill UN staff, and that this was not simply - as Israel insists - a tragic mistake?

What makes Annan’s allegation so unforgiveable is that his UN Interim Force in Lebanon has been warning for days about what almost certainly caused this tragedy. Hezbollah fighters, who have already been firing behind screens of women and children, have also been shooting from behind and next to the UN positions, presumably hoping Israel will not dare shoot back and risk exactly this kind of propaganda disaster.

Read the UNIFIL press releases for yourself to learn that Hezbollah has not just shot at and seriously wounded UNIFIL observers - without any protest from Kofi Annan or The Age. You’ll also learn that UNIFIL has repeatedly reported Israeli shelling and bombing near UNIFIL outposts because Hezbollah fighters were shooting from right beside them .

Says the UNIFIL press release of 20 July:

Hezbollah firing was also reported from the immediate vicinity of the UN positions in Naquora and Maroun Al Ras areas at the time of the incidents (of Israeli return fire).

Can the jeering critics of Israel stop catcalling for a minute and explain how Israel is to defend itself against an enemy that shoots from among women and children, and from behind UN soldiers? Can they explain why they are such apologists for terrorists? Can Annan explain why he did not call on Hezbollah to stop risking the lives of his staff, or pull them out when they were being used to screen terrorist fighters?

UPDATE 1: More evidence. Retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie says he recently received emails from the Canadian peacekeeper killed at the UN post who’d told him that Hezbollah was using his post as cover.

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

(Thanks to Little Green Footballs)

UPDATE 2: Canada’s prime minister Steven Harper also makes sense:

Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper said an Israeli attack on a UN outpost that killed four, including a Canadian, was a “terrible tragedy” but not likely deliberate.

At the same time, he questioned why the UN had manned the outpost in Lebanon near the Israeli border as bombs exploded all around.

“We want to find out why this United Nations post was attacked and also why it remained manned during what is now, more or less, a war during obvious danger to these individuals,” he told reporters.

UPDATE 3: Hezbollah is listed here and in the US and Canada as a terrorist group. Yet The Age today gave one of its spokesmen, Ali Fayyad, a senior member of Hezbollah’s executive committee, a quarter of a page to put his case against Israel. Am I alone in finding this shameful? I guess the paper at least “balanced” it by running alongside it a piece by an Israeli minister. Can someone older than I tell me if it was the habit of The Age in World War 2 to run pieces by Mr Hitler alongside ones by some Jewish spokesman not yet dead for the sake of a “balanced” argument? We can’t be far from the day that The Age hires Mr Osama bin laden as a columnist. When Michael Leunig retires, perhaps?