Wednesday, July 19, 2006

Deja Vu All Over Again

This morning on the East Coast, we're greeted with: Open confrontation between the Israeli Army and Hizbullah on the Lebanese southern borders.

Ashrafieh was hit with 4 bombs destroying two trucks. Apparently trucks now are military targets and need to be avoided at all costs. I wonder now how humanitarian aid will get to the battered southern villages.

For all those from the south, my heart goes with you. The death toll and destruction is greater than anyone can fathom. 23 have died and tens wounded by overnight shelling of ten houses in Srifa. And then Salaa was targeted; a two-storey house collapsed on its occupants killing a family of 10 who were buried under the rubble.

These are only few examples.

And by the way, doesn' t it feel like deja vu to many when you read (or hear) that we're getting "aid" from such and such country? Aid in the form of packages that include food items and blankets, etc.? Yalla, ya Libnan, we have truely went back in time some 20 years...

This is the sad reality. Will Lebanon be able to bounce back from all of this? For the past year, Lebanon got for the first time so much "positive" media coverage during and following the Cedar Revolution. The Israeli State however has chosen to destroy that positive image and replace it with the "given" image that has been carved for decades in so many people's heads--namely the image of destruction, terror, and fear.

To the Lebanese: just tell me how many times we had to explain to foreigners who never visited Lebanon that it's a safe place? Let me guess: hundreds of times!

As foreign nationals evacuate the country, what will be left? Will they return soon? Will those foreigners who were starting to consider Lebanon as a destination to beckon with consider it anymore? I believe it will take years for our country to recover its positive image.

I am reminded of my first post on this blog on February 21, 2005, I wrote the following:
I would like to see in the very near future a document drafted by the Opposition that will answer the many lingering questions: How are we going to resolve the question of the Sheba’a Farms? How will Hizbullah be disarmed and who will do so? What about the Palestinian refugee question?....Big, divisive issues indeed to which we must find honest and real answers. I believe the true challenge is not Syria’s withdrawal, but what will ensue after their withdrawal when we have to all sit together on one table to resolve those major, contentious issues on our own.
We were just starting to answer these questions, when all hell broke loose!

"Nobody knows how many rebellions, besides political rebellions, ferment in the masses of life which people earth."

53 comments:

the perpetual refugee said...

Yes, we were starting to have answers to those questions.

Perhaps 'they' did not want the questions answered.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Peter H said...

Stay strong, Doha. Please recognize that demoralization is a deliberate Israeli tactic. Israel will only win if you give in to it.

United Lebanon stands, Divided it Fall.s

Shay said...

To the Lebanese: just tell me how many times we had to explain to foreigners who never visited Lebanon that it's a safe place? Let me guess: hundreds of times!

Ha, I hear you on that one from across the fence.

It really is such a shame that hizbollah had to ruin it for you. Just when things were starting to look bright again.

I hope when this all blows over, we'll be able to bury the dead (on both sides) and our conflict between us.

As counterintuitive as this sounds considering the horrible desrtuction we're wrecking upon your country, the bottom line is that a strong, stable, peacful and economically prosperous Lebanon is a key Israeli interest.

If Lebanon will be able to position itself as an independant, moderate state, more akin to Kuwait and the Emirates than Syria and Iran, you'll see the foreign investments and tourism again. You might even be able to see a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue independantly, maybe even some family reunions, though I gather the issue of Sheba'a Farms will only be resolved in a treaty that involves Syria.

Anyway.. Here's to one day all living together under God's grace.
Be safe.

troy said...

You deserve it for being a nation of cowards and letting the Hezbollah destroy your country - time to pay the price. If you can't stop Hezbollah Israel will do it.

Tsedek said...

I'm stunned, I'm shocked. I don't think anybody innocent peaceful living soul on earth has to be the pawn of terrorgroups, directly or indirectly. I also understand that's what has been happening in Lebanon. So: unacceptable. But on the other hand, I think it should have been given some more time to implement their sovereignity. After all, Syria officially left just over a year ago. One more year of high alert on the Israeli northern border against attacks of the hizb -after 6 years in which agreements were continuously broken by them- plus an ultimatum to the Lebanese government, that it is truely not possible to have them operate from Lebanese soil, would - I think - have been better. Violence should have been the last option. Although, I'm also fully aware of the hurt that AGAIN soldiers ("our boys" - as a mother I just can't think of them in any other way) were killed and kidnapped without any provocation from Israeli side.

I hope Nasrallah (the ultimate demon of this situation) will burn in hell.... soon

Tse.

Tsedek said...

~~~~Nimrod:
May god save my Soul.~~~

Amen, brother...you just put the finger on the pulse.

Tse.

Anonymous said...

You know the American science fiction series Babylon 5? It's times like this I remember a citation from it:

http://www.babylonsounds.com/media/staffel5/declaration.mp3

The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice. The language is not Narn, or Human, or Centauri, or Gaim or Minbari. It speaks in the language of hope; It speaks in the language of trust; It speaks in the language of strength, and the language of compassion. It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul. But always, it is the same voice. It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, And the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: We are one. No matter the blood; No matter the skin; No matter the world; No matter the star; We are one. No matter the pain; No matter the darkness; No matter the loss; No matter the fear; We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause. we agree to recognise this singular truth, and this singular rule: That we must be kind to one another, because each voice enriches us and ennobles us, and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one.

When you shoot at each other, you shoot at yourself. Isn't that a truth of its own?

T. said...

Elad,

If you see pictures of the bombed trucks, you would realize that many of them were open. As for sending Hizballah "back" to Iran, you seem to forget that they too are Lebanese. I would also like to remind you that in a couple of decades, the Shia will be an absolute majority in Lebanon. Most live or come from the south. If you keep bombing the south viciously, you are breeding another generation that has proof of what the IDF can do. You can expect an even more billigerent neighbor in a couple of decades.

Brute force is not the solution! When will you ever learn that? I personally find criticism very welcome, but I appreciate it more when it comes from people who are also self-critical.

Tim Uckun said...

Israel is sick, it's mentally ill. I wrote more about it here.

It's sad, so sad that the victims of the holocaust have now resorted to slaughtering civillians.

T. said...

Here is a suspect truck for you.

T. said...

Shmulik,

Let's stick to the Lebanese case. Israel "crushed" the PLO in 1982 in Lebanon. What do you have now? Hizballah started in 1982 with the Israeli invasion. You have evolved from having a secular, non-Lebanese (therefore less popular with many in Lebanon) firing Katyoshas on your northern border to an Islamist, Iran-funded, entrenchedly Lebanese group firing missiles that go in as far as Haifa.

People in Israel are indifferent to Lebanese civilian lives because of the Katioshas raining down on them. They have shelters. They have gas masks. They have sirens. What would you expect from Lebanese who are being bombed from land, air, and sea with half a million refugees, most of them already poor and, to top it all off, have just lost their homes? Sympathy? This will only breed more resentment.

What's worse, look at Eli. Eli is itching to "crush" Hizballah. Keep this up for a while longer and you might very well have a civil war on your hands. Civil wars, as we all know from our text books, weaken central governments (a very nice, fuzzy central government at the moment). The vaccum can be easily filled by Hizballah. The army is mostly Shia. If they have to take sides, I am willing to bet my mother of pearl tavlah from Baalbak they will take Hizballah's, if only because it is their families bearing the brunt of this war. Your attempts to weaken Hizballah will only backfire.

Now, tell me again: how does what the IDF is doing now help the situation?

T. said...

Zionrules,

You are posing a question right? I am glad you are interested in my country. Well, the military budget and civil defence budget in Lebanon are not high. Plus, military ideology is not strong. Many services are not provided by the central government, but by decentralized localities and on people's initatives. For example, you see many shop owners putting out garbage baskets in front of their shops because the city has not supplied any or because it is not repairing them (this was changing over the last few years).

The reason for this is that we have what is called a "clientalist" system. Meaning that confessionalist elites control state resources and they hand them down only to people of their own confession who can promise them votes during the elections. These people in turn distribute them over their own constituency. So, the result is uneven development and lack of central organization.

Thank you for your question and your interest.

T. said...

Uri,
But please understand us - Israelis always think they know better - better than the americans in Iraq, better than our own leaders and military generals, etc.

Our two countries share a lot in common then ;)
I cannot answer the question on Palestinians. My view on that is tinged since I am half Palestinian.

I do not think Hizballah will lose popularity after this. The ones who supported then will support them even more (to them, they have received yet another proof of Israel's brutality). The ones who do not support them will support them even less. It will polarize the country and I think that is what the IDF is after. I do not think they appreciate the danger in that, though.

It is not B&W whether Hizballah is protecting the Lebanese or not. There are people (in the north) that never felt HA protected them. There are people (in the south) who feel that HA is doing what it has always done: protect them. Personally, I think violence breeds more violence and that for me settles the matter: HA is not protecting me. I only wish more Israelis feel that way about it.

T. said...

Theog,

I am not blaming Israel. I am trying to give another side to the arguments here. If you were Lebanese supporting Hizballah I would bring up many similar points.

Suha, I think you dont know the Israeli public very well, Israelis think of lebanese civilians as Israeli civilians

That is not what various Israelis have been telling me over the past few days. This is not the impression I get either when Israelis support a war that is killing more Lebanese civilians in one day than HA have in a lifetime. As for HA hiding among civilians, is that like Palestinians hiding beind pregnant women? Sorry, I do not buy war propaganda. I have to hear it on my side of the border, closer to where it is happening, to believe it.

Regarding the backfire, I think its a matter of opinion... the IDF can widthstand a longer fight and far more harshe then what we have now.

It is an opinion, as is everything else expressed in this forum. It is an informed, opinion, however, as I do Lebanese history for a living. As for the IDF, I have no doubts about their reselience or military power (we are all witnessing it) but this is guerilla warfare. The Americans could not win it in Vietnam. The IDF could not settle it in the territories. They will not be able to settle it here. And if you need an informed opinion on that one, you should listen to what your generals have started to say the last couple of days. They have scaled down their ambitions from "destroying" and "disarming" Hizballah to "weakening" them and pushing them back from the border.

T. said...

Shmulik,

That is why I asked you to narrow the discussion down to Lebanon. The situation in the West Bank and Gaza is different. They are under Israeli occupation. Even after withdrawal, Gaza was still completely under Israeli control. They even controlled the waters (And don't forget that Hamas had been holding a unilateral truce for 1.5 years until last month). Unless an occupation of Lebanon is what the IDF has in mind, I see no ground for comparison and I would rather we stick to the situation in Lebanon.

T. said...

Shmulik,

I said: "I have to hear it on my side of the border, closer to where it is happening, to believe it". My family is from Marji'youn and my mother lives in West Beirut and they have heard nothing of this s**t, to quote Bush. Jad, who lives far from both these places, himself has expressed that he is not certain about the sources.

Need I remind you that I did not believe an F-16 dropped from the sky either?

At any rate, if it is true, it will go beyond the level of rumors soon.

T. said...

1earth,

First, not all of Hizballah are militants. They are a party with a military wing. You don't suppose news broadcasters on al-Manar wear military uniforms, do you?

Second, see my response to Shmulik.

T. said...

Theog,

In the begining the goal was expressed as disarming Hizballah. Now, the position has changed to pushing Hizballah back from the border and the return of the 2 soldiers. I am not the only one who has noticed the softening. It has been remarked on here and here as well as several other places.

T. said...

Shmulik,

We do agree on what Hizballah are. But we do not agree on what the IDF is and we do not agree on how to go forth about the whole situation. Anyway, it was a good discussion. I am afraid I have to go now. We'll pick up on more points later.

Lirun said...

Hi BOX & DOHA

you have inspired me.. i have started a blog http://emspeace.blogspot.com/

i disagree with your post.. we will emerge stronger neighbours.. even if its only because this war has descended to our grass roots level and has caused people like us to reach out to eachother..

we will bridge the divide and together heal the distrust..

the cedar revolution does not have to end.. the whole world saluted your revolution and you changed us.. you changed our minds and educated us about you..

i'm disturbed about the state of affairs but i also dont understand why the international forces and UN didnt offer to step in before the bombing to disband hizbulla and enforce the resolution in order to protect israel and avert the crisis.. why is it that only now they suggest intervention..

i dont have faith in any of the institutions.. i dont think the UN or our governments have the power to really create peace.. but i do have faith in us.. and believe that we do..

Unknown said...

http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon07142006.html

Unknown said...

http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_4065127

Sir Sefirot said...

Well, look at it from the positive side:

When this war finishes and you get to get things done in Lebanon, you'll have one less thing to worry about, since Israel will already have taken care of your hizbullah. What are friends for? :D

Now seriously, Israel is helping you big way, except for all the comunication disruptions and stuff. You'll have to spend your money, but they are spending their blood and weapons to do the work. I think you should be a little more appreciative of this, although is sad that so many civilian casualties are taking place. After all, wars are like this.

Take care.

T. said...

Eran,

There are more and more reprts coming in from Lebanon the nazrallah and his thugs have found safe haven in the El Maten area which is dominantely christian.

Sources, please. There are always wars of words that go parallel to the destruction. Be it on my side or yours, I want sources.

T. said...

Sir Sefirot,

Judging by what I am seeing on the net, I would say the possibility for friendship is more unlikely now than what it was only one week ago. See for yourself.

D.B. Shobrawy said...

I have to admit, I hate anyone who defends the actions of their people so calously without regard for human lives. Whether its Arabs who support any terrorist organization who murders defensless civilians or whether its Jews who support Israel who murders defensless civilians. I think the two are equal to eachother, whatever happend to the middle.

Sir Sefirot said...

suha, I can't open the website. Is the link correct?

d.b. shobrawy and seeker, as you'll see, I'm tired of seeing people defend the bad ideals and bad actions because of "regard for human lives" (see fascism, communism, pacifism). Historically, this "regard for human lives" has killed many more people than the "hot blooded" line of thinking (see WWII, Gulf War I, etc.). And, sadly, it will continue to do so. It's sad that people die, but if it's necessary, so be it.

And to those that think I'm being partial (I am), I don't want to offend anyone, but Israel and jews in general have contributed to humanity MUCH more than Lebanon and arabs in general, so, from my point of view, an Israeli life is much more valuable than a lebanese one. I'm just basing myself on data, so, if you don't agree with what I said right now, provide me with some proof of the contrary in the future, and I may change my point of view.

D.B. Shobrawy said...

Sir Sefirot.

Case in point apparently. Lets look the other way.

Itai Frenkel said...

Suha,

The problem with being a bully is that there is always a bigger bully (I suppose every reader will interpret it the way he feels comfortable with)

Lebanon without the protection of the international community does not stand a chance of rebuilding itself (since there is always someone that will take advantage of it's weakness). So the basic question is, what made the international situation this time different ?

Obviously the time was right for both Iran, Syria and Israel.

Iran since 9/11 is in constant negotiation with the US (on help in Afgahnistan, on Nuclear weapons, on restraining Shias in Iraq, on oil prices and god knows what). Since the invasion to Iraq, Iran is gaining more and more reigonal power.

Syria has many problems. All of its neighbouring countries are under American influence now (Turkey, Iraq, Israel , Lebanon, Jordan) and the tension with the international investigation of Hariri does not makes it any better. Inciting a fire that only them (or Iran) can put off is a good bargaining chip.

Israel wants to unilatirally retriet from the west bank (I am taking it as a given although this could also be explained). Israel closely monitored HZ arm (race) and could not wait another few years until it was even stronger. If HZ gets stronger after Israel retreated from Lebanon, Olmert will never be able to do the same thing in the West Bank.

Egypt and Saudia do not want to see Iran getting more influence in their reigion, and therefore they see the money flowing from Iran to Hizbollah as a strategic problem.

Europe has not forgotten Al-Kaida attacks in Spain and London and the humiliating Arab minority uprising in Paris. It has nothing to do with lebanon except the fact they are all arabs. However, you cannot expect the Europeans to be able to make the distinction. Lebanon is not under Israel occupation so the automatic "Stop the colonialization" response cannot be used either.

And lebanon is poor. It dependent of richer countries (Saudies or Iran or even Syria). It cannot afford a big army, and it does not have access to US weapons (like Egypt has).

As I see it, the only way out of this mess, is for the Lebanon prime minister (Fouad Siniora , right?) to take a stand. There must be a Lebanonies interest somewhere but no one ever heard it. Supporting Syria , Iran or Israel is not an option. Once Lebanon has a clear voice the international community will stand behind it and Israel will have no choice but to play along. His recent call for a cease fire plays into the hands of everyone except Lebanon.

In the next few days, the Hizbollah will not risk a civil war since it is fighting with Israel and cannot afford to have one arm tied behind its back. Now that most of the foriegns are gone from Lebanon HZ cannot kidnap more people. The airstrikes are weakening its military force, and Israel has done almost everything to clear the way for a ground invasion (although no one knows if it will actually do it and when). The shiates find refugee in Christian and Sunni neighbourhoods which on one hand increases tension but on the other it makes them even more vulenarble to civil war.

A common enemy (Israel) is Fouad Siniora's chance to skillfully manipulate public opinion into a lebanon unity which will serve only Lebanon's interest without risking a civil war.

Knowing the Lebanonies figures better, would you think such a move is possible ?

Regards,
Itai Frenkel

Sir Sefirot said...

dror - Mostly agree, and, as I mentioned somewhere else before, daisy-cutter style bombs (termobaric bombs) can do as much damage as an atomic bomb, and if Israel used them we would be counting the civilians by the hundreds of thousands. So there's a factor 1 to 1000 here in casualties to killing capability. No point in talking about "massacres", "IDF targeting civilians", etc...

And doha, I haven't said Lebanese haven't done anything good - I guess they have done much more things than lots of other countries (most african ones, and others like North Corea and such), I was just doing a comparison. I myself I'm not Israeli, but Catalan (Spanish). We Catalans have had quite a diaspora as well, we have a territory (not a country, sadly) 2 or 3 times the size of Lebanon, and we have universities and scientists and intellectuals and writers and everything else around the globe. We are responsible for some of the most modern advances in medicine, astronomy, mathematics and computers. During the middle ages, Catalonia was one of the biggest kingdoms in the mediterranean, and one of the few where commerce, science and literature flourished during that period.

But I'd still prefer an Israeli to a Catalan. There's orders of magnitude of difference.

That's my point of view, and I won't change it without evidence. If you want to ban me, you're in your right, but it will say most about your view of the freedom of speech. Plus, you'll lose a regular reader.

Unknown said...

bush---WMD, Iraq must be attacked
then, oops, no WMD but Iraq should still be attacked, we're fighting ther fight for them. we are establishing democracy.

Olmert (well, bush)
---we want the 2 prisoners back, we will attack lebanon..
later, alright it's not about the prisoners but we still wanted to attack anyway..
we fight the fight for them
this is for their own good
we're bringing democracy
war on terror..

well look at iraq now
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

also if you wanted to get rid of a part of lebanon that hates you now everybody hates you.
good job!

Unknown said...

looks how much better iraq is now
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

Unknown said...

and look at this
http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

i saw today that the rabbis of west banks are telling the government that according to the Torah, it is fine to kill children and civilians in time of war..is this true?

Andrey said...

I wonder, can there be a peaceful, revolution in two bordering countries, demanding the OTHERS to not make them fight.

T. said...

Telling it like it is. Check out this article in the Lebanses Daily Star.
And I can assure you that the Daily Star was never Hizballah friendly.

T. said...

I have a question to most Israelis on this forum:

It just occured to me that here I am for the past 6 days arguing with you calmly, while the IDF carries out a systematic destruction of my country with your approval.

I was wondering to myself, had I been a supporter of Hizballah, would you be patiently arguing with me the same way? I am asking this despite the fact that Hizballah's rocket pale in comparison to what the IDF is doing to Lebanon. I am curious.

T. said...

but what is the first thing that israel targeted ? the airport.

Right, LS. And it is of no strategic value to Hizballah whatsoever. It is just meant to break us. So don't let it!

T. said...

Eran,

I don't know how many times I and other Lebanese have to explain this to you. THE IDF IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO LIMIT ITSELF TO HIZBALLAH SITES. Read this and this article. Of course you wish us harm. Stop lying to yourself. This is collective punishment if I have seen any. And I would not wish or condone it for anyone under ANY banner or excuse. FULL STOP!

Andrey said...

Actualy, Iran and USA do make israel fight. Everithing that hapenes here and now was predicted by both israelis and iranians and is much of interest of us in the region. Israel HAS whitdrawn its forces from lebanon in 2000. Back then the ressidents of northern israel and the whole of israel where asking - how can we withdraw? wouldn't it bring hezbolah closer to us, would it not allow them to shoot rockets further into israel? would not they be able to cross the border easyly (and dressed like IDF soldiers shoot and kill innocent bus passengers)?
The answer of the goverment to the israely citizens was that: if we would be inside our borders, any atack fromt them wouldnt be rightful they ARE NOT RESISTANCE ANY MORE!!! , and we would then have the right to response as we will.
too bad that it was said only to the citizence of israel, and as I see here lebanon knew nothing about it

Andrey said...

in greek culture there is a grate sin called the "hibris" which means pride (well, too much of of it). in their plays, the sin of hibris brings their hero to detruction. Israelis havd the sin of hibris after 67, and have payed for it in 72. Nassralah had this sin now, but he has a unfortuantly U are the one to pay for his sins.
(Just another descrityion of the situation, to make us all as objective as we may be - these are not my thaughs)

T. said...

al-ghadabdulsaati,

I left you a comment on another post explaining that I did not intend to launch a blanket attack. I was addressing "macho posters", "let's bomb the shit out of them" posters. I thought you should know.

I think the Daily Start article on the media coverage hits the nail right on the head. Concerning the one you sent, I agree that the core issue to solve is the Palestinian issue. I think it will have a domino effect.

I too am looking for a way into Beirut. I cannot stand this anymore. Are you there?

T. said...

The only thing I can say to the IDF's defence is that, although they are inflicting huge damage, they are not bombing completely indiscrimanetly.

Not to be too cynical, but that would not leave any bargaining chips, now would it?

I suppose I should have been clearer in that I was asking those who support the current war on Lebanon. But, thank you for your clear and honest answer.

Andrey said...

jay:
War is when civilince die for higher course (this time just for irans fun). today 3 moslems from israel died, 2 of them children.

Lirun said...

box

u are plainly inflammatory and you are ignoring the responses to you..

i take on board Doha's comments about the brevity of lebanon's separation from syrian control.. but i dont understand why it waits for israeli intervention before it calls for international assistance.. why couldnt lebanon have made a plea to the international community while the hizbulla was driving it down a valley of death..

why does it seem reasonable to you that while lebanon sits in silence israel needs to cop rockets day in and day out for six years..

the cedar revolution - and we bless and commend it - came at the expense of a lot of israeli restraint involving us being the restrained target of many many huzbulla rockets..

israel has as such been forced to pay the price for lebanese complacency for years.. but now when we are finaly fed up.. now when we finally respond not only to your lack of sovereignty but to your fellow citizens abuse of ours.. now you erupt in anger and call us liars?

you tell me to avoid your site and set up an alternative blog to demonstrate my genuine ambition to achieve peace and then you ignore me.. do you think i personally need your approval? israel is resilient and strong and as israelis it is clear to us that it is by choice that we exercise our force in a discerning manner rather than acting like your aggressive brothers inthe south and indiscriminately firing 1300 rockets just about anywhere.. and equally.. it is by choice that every voice on this site extending you an olive branch seeks to do so..

what are you thinking?! that we get paid just to write stupid empty statements to tickle your anger?

come on boxsta.. get real buddy..

you tell me to start a blog for dialog and all you do is ignore everyone.. now why dont youshow some integrity and respond to my post

still wishing you health, safety and peace

lirun
tel-aviv

www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Lirun said...

hehehe

boxsta

well i nonetheless thank you for the inspiration of setting up a blog.. you hurl accusations so indiscriminately.. you fire your sharp tongue so readily.. i dont see exactly how you forward your own cause or represent anything different to what you condemn.. whats more you boast of your ignorance and base extreme statements on admittedly minimal research..

again.. in israel we live not only our truth but also our mistakes.. we argue bitterly right and wrong and openly challenge eachother vehemently..

this blog is a wonderful opportunity for both sides to learn of each other's concerns.. i hope behind your offensive communication there is also a mind that is listening to our concerns and perhaps even learning how we may bridge them in future..

i wont continue to nag you :)

again.. wishing you and the entire state of lebanon health, safety and peace

lirun (apparently the attention "craving" brat)
tel-aviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

ps long live and god bless doha and her well researched thorough thoughtful and dialog provoking posts

Shay said...

I argee. Wholly unfair. It really is.
We are both being manipulated by outside forces. Iran or Syria or both, it doesn't matter, we're both dying because of others' interests.

Perhaps Iran felt that it would lose it's puppets in Lebanon soon if it didn't make HA to take action.

This sucks :(

Lirun said...

good night all

im exhausted - this is so addictive..

Sir Sefirot said...

Amir: It's an interesting point of view, and in some aspects I agree with it. But I'm affraid I am not that optimistic with the so-called palestinians.

Mirvat: You might want to look some news about "500 shells with mustard and nerve gas found in Iraq". Last time I checked, those qualify indeed as WMD.

shmulik:
"Sir sefirot
I really enjoy that you like us so much but there is a name to the things you say: racism.
despite the fact many believe zionism=racism, I am a proud zionist and still consider the kind of racism you stand for abhorent. If you think there are no murderers, thives or rapists in Israel please think again."

If you mean, cultural racism (discrimination between cultures), then yes, I'm culprit. I love some cultures and hate anothers.

If you mean traditional racism (discrimination between races) then I totally deny this. I don't care from where someone is, I care how he sees things and what he thinks about them. And I don't think this is bad at all. As always, subtle difference, but a world apart in significance.

Sir Sefirot said...

And yes, I know no one is perfect, and I don't agree with lots of things Israel has done (god guard us from being perfect), but some people are better than others, even in relative or statistic terms. That's what I care about.

Sir Sefirot said...

So true, but luckily we have evolved since then :p But I have to remind you, we did even worse things, like killing entire civilizations in the New World (now Mexico and South America), and until 25 years ago we were still in a dictatorship, a bloody one in case you don't know about it. As I said, we learned from our errors, and nowadays you can't recognize in us the country that did all these things, because we aren't any longer. I don't say other countries can't do that kind of change, but I can say that they haven't for the moment, and they aren't even willing to. They change, I'll like them. Simple.

Sir Sefirot said...

"The israeli's said they will kick you back 20 years if you dont relese the hijacked solidres - and They Did !"

I love it when people keep Their Word(tm) :)

"Finally, I'd like to pose a question to all those who admantly claim this course of action is so wrong -- what do you suggest would be a better way to go about this crisis? (because, frankly, I feel the burden of proof is entirely on yourselves.)"

gidi, indeed. Been asking this same question around, have received no answer yet. Hope you have better luck.

Shay said...

box - the Lebanon and Palestinian fronts are two separate issues. Tempterment or not, Israel is not stupid, it is not by choice that we open a second front.

Like it or not, I contend, and most analysts agree, that if it weren't for HA attack, none of this would have happenned.

Sometimes things are actually that simple; cause and effect.